12 Team Premier Does not work

[pete]

Attendances are down.
Quality is worst.
2 tier Premier Division.
10 team 1st Division worse.

I can't think of any positives to the 12 Team Premier aside from City top of the League ;)

[Poor Student]

Do you have any evidence to support a correlation between decreased attendences and a 12 team Premier? Interestingly the extra clubs promoted due to the extension of the Premier, UCD and Bray are actually doing better than 4 of the teams who would have been there anyway. How exactly has it reduced quality? It's not going back to a 10 anyway.

[lofty9]

A smaller league, as has been proven in the past created negative football, resulting in boring draws and a rethink to changing to summer football. The standard has not been better - your own team Cork are playing brilliant. Playing teams like Harps :p gives teams the opprtunity to express themselves and builds confidence for tougher matches :D Although Derry were very poor against Bohs, we are scoring goals and getting better results. If a ten team league was reintroduced it would become extremely stale again.

[gufct]

is the only future for soccer in this island.Strict enforcement of UEFA Licensing criteria and rules in relation to facilities for players and spectators. The league will prosper if tis is done at the moment its stagnating.

[dcfcsteve]

Attendances are down.
Quality is worst.
2 tier Premier Division.
10 team 1st Division worse.

I can't think of any positives to the 12 Team Premier aside from City top of the League ;)

Ehhh ? Which league are you talking about Pete ?! Where has this view suddenly come from ?

Firstly - are attendances really down, and is that directly attributable to the fact we now have a 12 team Premier ? The only vague source of stats we have on attendances is the thread on here that is continually updated. That is showing a whopping 2% drop in Premier and a less than 1% drop in First attendances this year versus last. Hardly statistically significant - especially given the fact that we're working off guestimates for much of that information. So there appears to be no proof that attendances are down.

Meanwhile, from that thread 55% of the clubs in the league have increased attendances this year - some of them very big increases (Derry, Harps, UCD, Limerick and Sligo in particular). 60% of the First division teams appear to have increased attendances - if there were 2 extra strong clubs in there to pad that division out and reduce 2 of the existings teams to non-contenders, do you really think that'd still be the case ? Would Limerick be registering such a huge increase in support if they were pushed 2 rungs further down the table ?

Secondly - again, how can you say the quality is "worst" (though clearly not as worst as your spelling... :p ;) ) ? Where is the proof - or even some anecdotal examples - to justify saying that the quality of our league is worse this year (even with 95%+ of the same players and managers we had in the league last season...).

This year is one of the more interesting in both divisions IMO. There's a proper 2/3-way challenge for the top of the Premier (Shels are by no means out of it yet), with neither Bohs nor Drogs ruled out of a top-3 finish either. There's also a great struggle at the bottom, and no team dead and buried yet.

Meanwhile, the First Division also has its usualy exciting top-of-table tussle - even with 2 less teams involved, so what negative impact has it had down there ? Meanwhile, for a change there isn't a club at the bottom of the First who are way dead and buried at this stage.

So how does all of this translate into a 12-team Premier that isn't working....? :confused:

[wws]

Pats read out official attendances at the end of every game

1800 v Shels top of table
1300 v Cork top of table


we hoped for home crowds in the region of 2,000 this season


attendances are fcked in the club thats honest enough to admit it - anecdotally I can say shels attendances are also muck


its nothing to do with the format of the league - Irish football isnt working! (and never has)

[pete]

Well people often state facts that summer football does not work or 10 team league does now work so thought i'd state my facts.

Last season there were few foregone results but this season is clear divide in the league & at least 2 to 3 certain results every week. I just don't remember so many one sided contests in the last few seasons.

[Bald Student]

Pats read out official attendances at the end of every game
1800 v Shels top of table
1300 v Cork top of table
Official attendances don't end in two zeros.

[Poor Student]

wws, you've been God awful this season and are languishing in the bottom half of the table. This following a poor season last season too. You're attendences are hardly surprising. The clubs doing well like Derry and Cork have high attendences.

[pete]

The clubs doing well like Derry and Cork have high attendences.

Our attendances are down this year. We were likely to get better crowds watching more competitive bigger teams than turkey shoots against Rovres, Harps, Pats etc..

[Poor Student]

Our attendances are down this year. We were likely to get better crowds watching more competitive bigger teams than turkey shoots against Rovres, Harps, Pats etc..

It's hard to gauge though. You've so overbloated your attendences in the past that we're only gaining a real perspective now the club is publishing figures. They're still relatively high though and I'm sure if you remain on top there will be plenty of bandwagon jumpers to swell your attendences in the Autumn.

[A face]

its nothing to do with the format of the league - Irish football isnt working! (and never has)


Irish football has to put in a decent effort before it can come out with stuff like that ..... again ..... if you can show me a club in this league that has a half decent advertising campaign and are actually working on improving the product they have (i.e. Standards of football and facilities) ... then i'll listen, until then .... its a no brainer !!

[ThatGuy]

It's hard to gauge though. You've so overbloated your attendences in the past that we're only gaining a real perspective now the club is publishing figures. They're still relatively high though and I'm sure if you remain on top there will be plenty of bandwagon jumpers to swell your attendences in the Autumn.
Of course. 3/4 seasons ago when Cork weren't doing as well their attendances were a lot worse than now.

As for the 12 team league, it has its weaknesses. Playing a team 3 times is ridiculous, the future has to be a league big enough to sustain 2 meetings a season. A weakness of the 12 team over the 10 team league is that clubs are effectively swapping a big gate (eg. V Shels) for a small gate (eg v UCD etc).

I hated the 10 team league though. I don't want to see UCD/Finn Harps 4 times a season. I think we played Drogheda about 7/8 times in one season. It also diluted the atmosphere of the big games as the sides were meeting too frequently, often within a short period of time.


The next change in the size of the league should be to accomodate Northies.

[dcfcsteve]

Well people often state facts that summer football does not work or 10 team league does now work so thought i'd state my facts.

Last season there were few foregone results but this season is clear divide in the league & at least 2 to 3 certain results every week. I just don't remember so many one sided contests in the last few seasons.

So that's it - that's your proof that attendances are down, the quality of football is worse and the 12 team Premier isn't working....? :o

How can you say there were few forgone conclusions last season. What about games against Dublin City ? Derry were also fair game in the first half of the season. As for this year - no-one expected Derry to be 4 points off the top, so where's the forgone conclusion in that ? Even when people realised we were a good team, it was a shock for us to get thumped by Rovers at home. How about your dour home draw to Longford - was that a foregone conclusion ? I could go on....

Anyways - surely having all teams playing at the same lower level would suggest a greater lack of quality than having a small number of clubs playing significantly better football ? So If Chelsea, Arsenal, and Man U played like Portsmouth and Fulham every week the EPL would be of better quality.....?

You really haven't provided anything that goes near to supporting your very strong assertion Pete

[pete]

I could suggest Shels did worse in Europe as they are playing lower level of football this season in the league so couldn't up their game? ;)

BTW i thought Dublin City last season were better than Harps & Rovers this season.

The Derry City & Cork City home games this weekend are as close to certainty home wins. I don't think it was that one sided last season.

[ThatGuy]

Attendances are down.

Are they? What is that based on? Bohs attendances are down but I was under the impression that there was a sizeable increase in attendances?



Quality is worst.
I don't agree with that at all. Unlike most recent seasons when only Bohs and Shels could play a bit of 'ball there are several decent teams this year.



2 tier Premier division
That is a good thing. More teams, and a chance for sides to rebuild in mid-table and for good sides to turn on style/experiment against poor teams



10 team 1st Division worse.

1st division is a joke, I couldn't care less about it.

[wws]

if two nil is a "turkey shoot" than o flynn better lace up his shooting boots!


to whoever posted re the two noughts- pulllllease.....they announce the attendances - they are in the public domain - i cant recall them to the exact number but 18 hundred and something is a tad more accurate than - there was 3,000 at it last night - which you find in the guesstimate thread on this board.....

in reply to the post re pats not doing well
Pats wanted crowds in the 1500 to 2000 bracket at least -
they are getting 1000 - to 1400 on average

crowds are down - end of - not even the visit of the "galmour clubs" (giggle) can raise the average - a division is only as strong as all its members and basically there are no consistency in support - except for one - consitently poor

[Slash/ED]

Firstly - are attendances really down, and is that directly attributable to the fact we now have a 12 team Premier ? The only vague source of stats we have on attendances is the thread on here that is continually updated. That is showing a whopping 2% drop in Premier and a less than 1% drop in First attendances this year versus last. Hardly statistically significant - especially given the fact that we're working off guestimates for much of that information. So there appears to be no proof that attendances are down.


More to the point, you're comparing an average mid way through the season with one by the end of last season. Attendences will rise for the last series of matches when the season is reaching it's climax and bring the average up.

And you can't compare a game v Cork and a dublin derby attendence wise even if both clubs were top of the league at the time.

[wws]

And you can't compare a game v Cork and a dublin derby attendence wise even if both clubs were top of the league at the time.

assume you refer to my post of those attendances? well I'm not comparing they were the attendances from THIS season .... both **** poor - for the visit of the el's top two teams mustered no interest in Dublin to speak of

[Slash/ED]

assume you refer to my post of those attendances? well I'm not comparing they were the attendances from THIS season .... both **** poor - for the visit of the el's top two teams mustered no interest in Dublin to speak of

Ah I thought you were comparing them with each other.

Yeah fair point then.

[wws]

Ah I thought you were comparing them with each other.

Yeah fair point then.


.....although granted both were on Bank holiday weekends.....by coincidence - not sure what effect that has

[pete]

.....although granted both were on Bank holiday weekends.....by coincidence - not sure what effect that has

Meant probably extra 100-150 City fans last week.

[pineapple stu]

More to the point, you're comparing an average mid way through the season with one by the end of last season. Attendences will rise for the last series of matches when the season is reaching its climax and bring the average up.
Was wondering who'd have the sense to raise that point. Definitely a very valid point. I would hope that the attendances this year will in fact end up showing a slight increase.

Whatever about the other points, let's look at the attendances (being my baby and all that! :) )

The attendance thread shows a decrease in average Premier attendance of about 3 to 5%. Given so few official figures, that can't be classed as a decrease - that's static given margin of error. Cork fans' huge overestimates last season alone would have caused last year's figure to be too high.

Some crowds are way up - UCD, Bray and Harps are up 40% to 150%. This is because of the expanded Premier. This can only be good for the clubs concerned. Why harm them by taking this away?

Some crowds are down for non-footballing reasons - Dublin City were relegated and are homeless; Dundalk are also homeless. If they were playing at home, the First Division average would be higher this year.

In any case, in the lack of official figures for last year and this year (and previous years), we can't make any conclusive conclusion on attendances.

[superfrank]

Attendances are down.
Quality is worst.
2 tier Premier Division.
10 team 1st Division worse.

I can't think of any positives to the 12 Team Premier aside from City top of the League ;)
You don't have to play the same teams as much.

Plus your point bout Shels doing worse in Europe is ********. Steaua are better then Hajduk.

[ThatGuy]

When you look at attendances that colleges in the USA get for American Football and Basketball, I am surprised at just how small UCD's attendances are.

[wws]

You don't have to play the same teams as much.

Plus your point bout Shels doing worse in Europe is ********. Steaua are better then Hajduk.

......or Hajduk were never good in the first place??? A lot of people overestimated that team here forgetting that similar standard Croatians had already suffered the same fate to a part time pats side two years previous. The facts are that Croatian football was/is in decline and shels made little breakthrough last year, they scored two precious away goals in crotia - so did pats - different cup, same standard of oppossition.

I just wonder now how Shels business plan holds up to the euro reality rather than the fantasy.....

[fosterdollar]

You don't have to play the same teams as much.

Plus your point bout Shels doing worse in Europe is ********. Steaua are better then Hajduk.
Hajduk got whooped 5-0 at home (i think) last night

[Poor Student]

When you look at attendances that colleges in the USA get for American Football and Basketball, I am surprised at just how small UCD's attendances are.

Why? We obviously don't have the same college culture as them. College sport is the second tier of sport under the NFL, NBA etc. over there and they compete against other colleges representing massive catchment areas. It's not comparable at all. Don't forget the Irish public's general apathy towards the eL compared with the attitude of Americans towards their own sports and the attdences their sports draw at the top level.

[Poor Student]

Hajduk got whooped 5-0 at home (i think) last night

By Hungarians Debrecen.

[pineapple stu]

Last season there were few foregone results but this season is clear divide in the league & at least 2 to 3 certain results every week. I just don't remember so many one sided contests in the last few seasons.
Rubbish.

UCD have drawn twice with Shels and Bohs, beaten Derry and Drogheda and drawn with Cork.
Rovers have beaten Shels, Drogheda and Derry and drawn with Bohs.
Bray have drawn with Shels, Drogheda and Cork.
Waterford have beaten Bohs and drawn with Cork.
Pat's have drawn with Derry and a couple of others, I think.

By definition, top half teams will do better against bottom half teams, but there's no evidence that there's a marked gulf in quality developing.

[superfrank]

Rubbish.

UCD have drawn twice with Shels and Bohs, beaten Derry and Drogheda and drawn with Cork.
Rovers have beaten Shels, Drogheda and Derry and drawn with Bohs.
Bray have drawn with Shels, Drogheda and Cork.
Waterford have beaten Bohs and drawn with Cork.
Pat's have drawn with Derry and a couple of others, I think.

By definition, top half teams will do better against bottom half teams, but there's no evidence that there's a marked gulf in quality developing.
And Longford.

[ThatGuy]

Rubbish.

UCD have drawn twice with Shels and Bohs, beaten Derry and Drogheda and drawn with Cork.
Rovers have beaten Shels, Drogheda and Derry and drawn with Bohs.
Bray have drawn with Shels, Drogheda and Cork.
Waterford have beaten Bohs and drawn with Cork.
Pat's have drawn with Derry and a couple of others, I think.

By definition, top half teams will do better against bottom half teams, but there's no evidence that there's a marked gulf in quality developing.
And to be fair to UCD they deserved 6 points from the Bohs games.

[dcfcsteve]

When you look at attendances that colleges in the USA get for American Football and Basketball, I am surprised at just how small UCD's attendances are.

The collegiate cultures in the US and Ireland are polls apart.

Firstly America has a big tradition of people going to college near where they are from - probably due to the expense involved in US college attendance. This has created a very strong sense of affinity between town and gown - even for people who have themselves not gone to their local Uni. This therefore creates a very large potential market for college sports teams in the US. This is not the case in Ireland - the people of Cork, Limerick and Galway, for example, feel little connection to the Unis there.

Secondly - college sport in the US is extremely lucrative and competitive. It really is big business, particularly in the chunks of the country where Pro-ball is under-represented (e.g. Notre Dame in Indiana, Gainsville in Florida). The standard is extremely high, many of the stadiums are huge and as good as the pro-ball ones, and there's a lot of prestige and money involved. UCD and the Eircom League could not be further from this.

There is also a peculiarly Irish lack of identity with one's own Uni. Every weekend it seems that the vast majority of UCD students feck-off back up the country to see their mammys/girlfriends/boyfriends/muckers. This appears to be the norm, not the exception. For comparison - this would be extremely strange if not unique to do at an English Uni (going home every weekend would see you considered a bit of a loser). This seems to do very little to foster any sort of pride in the college that people attend in ireland (with the elitist exception of Trinity).

In summary, and to generaliase, UCD students don't particularly feel any strong identity/affinity with their college, all feck-off home at the weekend when games are on anyway, and the standard of fare on offer is hardly world class, so it's entirely understandable that their situation differs from the like of American college teams.

[TheOwl]

The collegiate cultures in the US and Ireland are polls apart.

Firstly America has a big tradition of people going to college near where they are from - probably due to the expense involved in US college attendance. This has created a very strong sense of affinity between town and gown - even for people who have themselves not gone to their local Uni. This therefore creates a very large potential market for college sports teams in the US. This is not the case in Ireland - the people of Cork, Limerick and Galway, for example, feel little connection to the Unis there.

Secondly - college sport in the US is extremely lucrative and competitive. It really is big business, particularly in the chunks of the country where Pro-ball is under-represented (e.g. Notre Dame in Indiana, Gainsville in Florida). The standard is extremely high, many of the stadiums are huge and as good as the pro-ball ones, and there's a lot of prestige and money involved. UCD and the Eircom League could not be further from this.

There is also a peculiarly Irish lack of identity with one's own Uni. Every weekend it seems that the vast majority of UCD students feck-off back up the country to see their mammys/girlfriends/boyfriends/muckers. This appears to be the norm, not the exception. For comparison - this would be extremely strange if not unique to do at an English Uni (going home every weekend would see you considered a bit of a loser). This seems to do very little to foster any sort of pride in the college that people attend in ireland (with the elitist exception of Trinity).

In summary, and to generaliase, UCD students don't particularly feel any strong identity/affinity with their college, all feck-off home at the weekend when games are on anyway, and the standard of fare on offer is hardly world class, so it's entirely understandable that their situation differs from the like of American college teams.

True - I'm a big follower of American sports, and college teams are akin to "club" teams, with NFL, NBA sides then being like "national" teams for a town/city/state.

[mypost]

Pats read out official attendances at the end of every game

1800 v Shels top of table
1300 v Cork top of table

we hoped for home crowds in the region of 2,000 this season


attendances are fcked in the club thats honest enough to admit it - anecdotally I can say shels attendances are also muck

There will always be poor attendances in the NL until the games are played at a civilised time, i.e. not 7.45 on a Friday night, which prevents most away fans from travelling, (except derbies), nor on Sunday afternoons of Bank Holiday weekends which coincide with live GAA tv coverage. No bogball fan is going to watch NL football over it.

I have already stated when and what time that NL games should take place, and in the Premier Division, only Longford and Finn Harps do it, even if the kick-off times are relatively early. If every club fell into line with those two, attendances would improve. Ffs, how many other leagues in Europe play the majority of their games on Friday nights?? :confused: :mad:

[mypost]

it was a shock for us to get thumped by Rovers at home.

Why??

[crc]

Secondly - again, how can you say the quality is "worst" (though clearly not as worst as your spelling... :p ;) ) ?
The collegiate cultures in the US and Ireland are polls apart
Live by the sword, die by the sword - that should be "poles" :D

[rerun]

is the only future for soccer in this island.Strict enforcement of UEFA Licensing criteria and rules in relation to facilities for players and spectators. The league will prosper if tis is done at the moment its stagnating.

16 teams would be magic, need the infrastructure though. Galway, Sligo, Limerick and maybe the Kerry League or Mullingar would add a bit more diversity to a Dublin dominated league (not being biased here, I'm a Dub myself). Ten teams was crazy, took the occassion out of special matches like Dublin derbies when there's four a season.

[sonofstan]

Spot on , DCFC Steve - I'm a researcher in UCD in real life (sometimes) and the football team is next to invisible on campus - I bet if you polled undergrads. at the end of their first year as to how many even know there's a team there you'd get blank looks (actually thats what you get from most of them all the time).

Anyone who is into the EL will generally arrive at UCD with a prior affiliation; but the vast majority of kids there are either D4 Ross O'Carroll- Kelly rugby types or county jersey wearing muckers who probably don't realise there is even football in this country.
Still think the club could do more tho' - it can't be that hard to at least advertise games on campus a bit more

[pineapple stu]

Still think the club [UCD] could do more tho' - it can't be that hard to at least advertise games on campus a bit more
Meh. I've been there and done that with regards putting posters up around college for games. It was done for years. Those that don't get postered over within half an hour of going up get lost in the shouting match that is the posters in Belfield. Your point about having an affiliation before coming to UCD means there's little point anyway. The college papers the last few years have given the team great coverage. Yet when we move away from students to the locality, our fan base immediately starts to grow. Students supporting the team would be great, but unfortunately in reality, the decision not to target the college is a no-brainer.

[dublinred]

There will always be poor attendances in the NL until the games are played at a civilised time, i.e. not 7.45 on a Friday night, which prevents most away fans from travelling, (except derbies), nor on Sunday afternoons of Bank Holiday weekends which coincide with live GAA tv coverage. No bogball fan is going to watch NL football over it.

I have already stated when and what time that NL games should take place, and in the Premier Division, only Longford and Finn Harps do it, even if the kick-off times are relatively early. If every club fell into line with those two, attendances would improve. Ffs, how many other leagues in Europe play the majority of their games on Friday nights?? :confused: :mad:

We will be playing at a civilised time time next year if your still in the premier.Hopefully Harps and Shams can hang on it wouldn't be the same getting promoted without you guys in the premier.

[NY Hoop]

IMHO getting rid of the 10 team league was a big mistake. It was more competitive and I didnt see any harm playing teams 4 times. At least that way you could go to Cork and Derry twice which is always good!

The current structure is ridiculous. Is there another league that plays 33 games a season? Two home games in a row or two away games in a row. B*ez had to play in cork one week and the next they were in Ballybofey. Absolute nonsense.

A 16 team league would not work simply because the quality is not there. There would be 3 mini leagues in one division and attendances, bad as they are now, would plummet.

Mypost hit the nail on the head. Only derbies should be held on friday nights. We had a great crowd in cork a few weeks back but would have got more if it was on sat night. Incredible stupidity to see Waterford at home to Derry on a friday night :(

KOH

[Mr A]

A vital consideration in decisions about the stucture of the the league must be the future of the first division. The top league does not and cannot exist in a little bubble of it's own- Irish football will only thrive when all the clubs are healthy, not just an elite few. What league in europe achieves real success without something resembling a healthy second tier? The senior game needs some proper long term planning, better interaction with the intermiate game and junior game, and a general change in culture towards more attractive football.

I also don't see how anyone can assume that the quality isn't there for a 16 team league... didn't we have a 16 team league when Irish football was at it's most successful? At the moment most of the teams in the first are struggling to survive, not because they're necessarily bad football clubs who aren't worth worrying about, as many of the people from bigger clubs would snobbishly suggest but because Irish football, as a product is generally woeful. Many people just don't want to watch Irish football, unless their local team is at the very top of the league.

The FAI should instigate a 'Genisis Report' on the senior game- carried out by professionals from outside the game. Things are pretty crap at the moment, letting outsiders have a say can't make it much worse.

[manic da hoop]

Is there another league that plays 33 games a season?


Denmark AFAIK.

With regard to the First Division, the biggest problem IMO is the lack of a compeditive set-up for most clubs - there's no relegation, and the promotion battle is confined to no more than 3 or 4 clubs. It may seem strange coming from a Rovers fan, but why not have three automatically relegated from the premier with the top two from the first going the straight up. Second, third, fourth and fifth would play-off for the final place.

[Poor Student]

Who was waffling on about predictable foregone results? Tonight table toppers Cork and Derry draw at home to Waterford and Bray respectively who are both in the bottom half of the table and midtable UCD draw at home to bottom placed Finn Harps.

[NY Hoop]

A vital consideration in decisions about the stucture of the the league must be the future of the first division. The top league does not and cannot exist in a little bubble of it's own- Irish football will only thrive when all the clubs are healthy, not just an elite few. What league in europe achieves real success without something resembling a healthy second tier? The senior game needs some proper long term planning, better interaction with the intermiate game and junior game, and a general change in culture towards more attractive football.

I also don't see how anyone can assume that the quality isn't there for a 16 team league... didn't we have a 16 team league when Irish football was at it's most successful? At the moment most of the teams in the first are struggling to survive, not because they're necessarily bad football clubs who aren't worth worrying about, as many of the people from bigger clubs would snobbishly suggest but because Irish football, as a product is generally woeful. Many people just don't want to watch Irish football, unless their local team is at the very top of the league.

The FAI should instigate a 'Genisis Report' on the senior game- carried out by professionals from outside the game. Things are pretty crap at the moment, letting outsiders have a say can't make it much worse.

Good post. We did have a 16 team league but that was when there was only 16 teams in the league!

Having a 16 team league now is not on. The quality is not there. I'm afraid that's the truth.


KOH

[Slash/ED]

The only way to make a 16 team league work would be, as has been discussed time after time, with some kind of All Ireland league.