Republic of Ireland V Ukraine - Wednesday, 8 June 2022 - 2022/23 UEFA Nations League

[geysir]

If we can’t put in a good performance against the Ukraine after the week they have had ~ ~ Then the Kenny regime is in big big big trouble ~ Boris Johnson probably has better long term prospects ! !
A good performance plus a result.

[seanfhear]

A good performance plus a result.
I was being generous ~ I just can’t help it ~ Sometimes you can have a performance and not get the deserved result.

[passinginterest]

In terms of the team tomorrow, we've been told not to expect wholesale changes so presumably it'll be two or three max and we know Coleman is out so that's one of them. I'd like to see a slight tweak to the shape presuming it's still 3 at the back. I think the exciting move might be Ogbene for Coleman but I think we'll see Christie get the nod and I won't be too upset by that. Not sure Stephens is 100% so McClean might get the nod to start, he'll bring a bit of energy and bite but maybe at the expense of some defensive solidity. Personally, I'd probably leave out Duffy and bring in Lenihan or O'Shea, both offer a bit more on the ball, but I think the back three will be unchanged.

In the middle, I'll be surprised if Cullen and Hendrick are not in from the start again. The game might have even been good for Hendrick after a light enough amount of game time towards the end of the season. My change would be to start Knight in front of them, closer to an additional centre mid than as part of a front three, with a more defined front two. Hard to leave Ogbene out altogether, but if the shape changes like that, I think he has to be at wing back or left out. The front two then would likely be Parrot/Keane and Obafemi/Robinson. I'd be curious to see Parrot and Obafemi in this set up myself but Kenny does like a front 3 so it's more likely to be one through the middle and one either side again, even though it's not really producing goals for us.

[elatedscum]

In terms of the team tomorrow, we've been told not to expect wholesale changes so presumably it'll be two or three max and we know Coleman is out so that's one of them. I'd like to see a slight tweak to the shape presuming it's still 3 at the back. I think the exciting move might be Ogbene for Coleman but I think we'll see Christie get the nod and I won't be too upset by that. Not sure Stephens is 100% so McClean might get the nod to start, he'll bring a bit of energy and bite but maybe at the expense of some defensive solidity. Personally, I'd probably leave out Duffy and bring in Lenihan or O'Shea, both offer a bit more on the ball, but I think the back three will be unchanged.

In the middle, I'll be surprised if Cullen and Hendrick are not in from the start again. The game might have even been good for Hendrick after a light enough amount of game time towards the end of the season. My change would be to start Knight in front of them, closer to an additional centre mid than as part of a front three, with a more defined front two. Hard to leave Ogbene out altogether, but if the shape changes like that, I think he has to be at wing back or left out. The front two then would likely be Parrot/Keane and Obafemi/Robinson. I'd be curious to see Parrot and Obafemi in this set up myself but Kenny does like a front 3 so it's more likely to be one through the middle and one either side again, even though it's not really producing goals for us.

I think I'd hope for Christie in for Coleman, McClean in for Stevens. Parrott out and either Knight or Obafemi in for him. That'd do me grand...

[tommy_c12000]

The team I would play: Travers, Collins, Egan, O’Shea, Ebosele, McClean, Cullen, Knight, Ogbene, Obafemi, Parrott.

The team I expect Kenny to select: Kelleher, Collins, Duffy, Egan, Christie, McClean, Cullen, Hendrick, Ogbene, Robinson, Parrott (I have a feeling he may drop Parrott though, maybe Knight in his place, although I don’t fancy Knight out wide).

[Razors left peg]

The team I would play: Travers, Collins, Egan, O’Shea, Ebosele, McClean, Cullen, Knight, Ogbene, Obafemi, Parrott.

The team I expect Kenny to select: Kelleher, Collins, Duffy, Egan, Christie, McClean, Cullen, Hendrick, Ogbene, Robinson, Parrott (I have a feeling he may drop Parrott though, maybe Knight in his place, although I don’t fancy Knight out wide).

I think the team you expect Kenny to pick is exactly what he'll do Tommy. He does like a curve ball every now and then so wouldnt be surprised to see something random like Browne starting.

Robinson will be lucky to keep his place, I think he was very poor in Armenia. Far from the only one obviously but really was annoyed with him at times

[pineapple stu]

Robinson will be lucky to keep his place, I think he was very poor in Armenia. Far from the only one obviously but really was annoyed with him at times
I think so alright. I said at the start that I'd leave Obafemi out of the Armenia game to bring him back in for the home games and I think I'd still like to see that (even though Obafemi wasn't up to much on Saturday either, disappointingly)

It's be the main change I'd be looking to see anyway.

[tetsujin1979]

Not going to make a massive difference to the game on Saturday, David Marshall has announced his retirement from international football
https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/david-marshall-announces-international-retirement/?rid=14258

[Eirambler]

Well I guess that's 40 yard lobbed finishes out of the question then.

[Eirambler]

The team I would play: Travers, Collins, Egan, O’Shea, Ebosele, McClean, Cullen, Knight, Ogbene, Obafemi, Parrott.

The team I expect Kenny to select: Kelleher, Collins, Duffy, Egan, Christie, McClean, Cullen, Hendrick, Ogbene, Robinson, Parrott (I have a feeling he may drop Parrott though, maybe Knight in his place, although I don’t fancy Knight out wide).

If he goes with three forwards and two in midfield yet again we'd be as well to just pack it in. Surely even Kenny has to learn at this point.

[geysir]

I think the team you expect Kenny to pick is exactly what he'll do Tommy. He does like a curve ball every now and then so wouldnt be surprised to see something random like Browne starting.

Robinson will be lucky to keep his place, I think he was very poor in Armenia. Far from the only one obviously but really was annoyed with him at times
He has been one of our better players, a technically gifted player with the promise of that creative extra, (which you won't get from the hoddie McClean) do you think such a player should be dropped for being off form in a game played in blistering heat?

[Razors left peg]

He has been one of our better players, a technically gifted player with the promise of that creative extra, (which you won't get from the hoddie McClean) do you think such a player should be dropped for being off form in a game played in blistering heat?
I dont get the reference to McClean. I think Robinson is inconsistent. He was on fire for a few games in a row but can also be a bit of a headless chicken who makes poor decisions. I would potentially start Obafemi ahead of him for this game

[Razors left peg]

My team for tomorrow would be

Kelleher

Collins Duffy Egan

Christie Cullen Hendrick McClean

Ogbene Obafemi Knight


Would like to see Festy get a run at some point so I hope hes in matchday squad.

[Stuttgart88]

If that’s against Harry Kane it’s a pen
I know my footie

[geysir]

I dont get the reference to McClean. I think Robinson is inconsistent. He was on fire for a few games in a row but can also be a bit of a headless chicken who makes poor decisions. I would potentially start Obafemi ahead of him for this game
There comes a time in intl football when there is a first 11, (for the most part) regardless of an off game. The manager sticks with the first 11 (for the most part) through thick and thin. If that's not so with Ireland then we are still experimenting with prospective players, we are still not settled on our best 11, we are still in the process of team building. That means that after 2 years, either we are afflicted with an indecisive incompetent management or/and a bunch of players not good enough to nail down their place at this level.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Saw this on RTE this morning: https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2022/0607/1303538-football-takes-a-back-seat-as-ukraine-arrive-in-dublin/

A loss to Armenia is "Eight steps forward, one step back" (the eight referring to the streak of avoiding losses, that included the 1-1 home draw with Azerbaijan and that awful performance against Lithuania)? And "does [winning the group] really going to matter to the regular Irish football fan?" I'm loath to agree with certain people on here who get very loud whenever Ireland mess up, but Kenny is getting an easy ride from certain quarters.

We really need a win tonight, especially after Kenny's claimed aim of winning the group, but I don't see it happening. Ukraine looked very good against Scotland, and made a lot of chances in Cardiff, enough that on another day they would have eased into the World Cup. It seems that we're banking on their mental state being frail/low, but they strike me as a team that can rally.

[Eirambler]

Awful article, you don't get much more Kenny fan boy than that.

[pineapple stu]

Daft article alright.

On the Lithuania game actually, I see they lost 6-0 at home to Turkey and 2-0 at home to Luxembourg in the Nations League this week. It'll be interesting to see how Scotland fare against Armenia tonight. You're right to put the 8-game unbeaten run into some context, and I think the results noted don't put the Lithuania struggle in a positive light anyway. (Not that most of us didn't know this anyway)

[Stuttgart88]

There comes a time in intl football when there is a first 11, (for the most part) regardless of an off game. The manager sticks with the first 11 (for the most part) through thick and thin. If that's not so with Ireland then we are still experimenting with prospective players, we are still not settled on our best 11, we are still in the process of team building. That means that after 2 years, either we are afflicted with an indecisive incompetent management or/and a bunch of players not good enough to nail down their place at this level.I think most of the first XI are pretty certain and turnover can be explained by a few factors. Doc starts if fit, which he isn't. Omobamidele and O'Shea are very close to the XI if fit - not fair to say they didn't perform well enough to nail down a place at this level, especially as Collins has emerged.

Idah and Connolly aren't available or aren't trusted anymore but I think it's hard to argue that they weren't deserving of selection when they were picked, even if it was a touch speculative. Obafemi has finally played himself into contention and Parrott has now earned his slot. Coleman and Stevens mightn't have long left. I expect a bit of flux in the next half year too due to the U21s like Smallbone, Noss, O'Connor, Coventry etc being promoted (you could see several). So I think a fair bit of turnover is understandable, both in the recent past and in the near future. I'm not sure it's indecision (though McGrath's exclusion is odd imho) and I'd agree that to an extent it's players being tried but not delivering (Connolly for example, maybe also Hourihane). So just saying your either/or scenario doesn't tell the full picture imho.

[pineapple stu]

Ebosele replaces Coleman in the matchday squad.

Lenihan, Manning and Hogan miss out.

[joey B]

Do we reckon Manning just isn’t an international player at this stage? He’s 25,been playing regularly for a few years in the Championship and left back isn’t exactly a position of strength…..

[Trequartista20]

Ebosele comes into the squad in place of Coleman according to reports, meaning no place in the 23 for Lenihan, Hogan and Manning miss out. Edit: sorry, someone else posted this at the same time as me.

This suggests to me that McClean will likely be playing at wingback with Festy on bench as a Hail Mary option if and when we need him

Manning is one of the better footballers available to us with a good left foot and is a decent set-piece taker as well as being versatile, so it's surprising to me Kenny that has failed to find room for him once again. McClean had question marks over his fitness going into these games didn't play well when he came on the other day.

[pineapple stu]

I thought Manning and Hogan (also a Championship regular in a position we're not exactly well-stocked with) were two of the bright spots from the Lithuania game to be honest. That's not exactly a ringing endorsement, and in Manning's case it was hard to judge him when he had little to do defensively. But yeah, for both of those players, there has to be a feeling that Kenny just doesn't fancy them, for right or for wrong.

[joey B]

Yeah maybe it’s a Kenny preference thing,I haven’t seen him playing too much I’ll be honest ,just weird he isn’t even making the squad….

[JR89]

With five actual CBs named in the squad Manning was probably only brought as cover incase McClean or Stevens dropped out. They both came into camp with injuries so was probably better to have Manning in camp already rather than at home on the standby list. Would be my guess as when he's made squads before with McClean and Stevens also named he's always been there as fifth choice CB.

[passinginterest]

I though Manning did well enough in the Lithuania game to have maybe bumped himself up the pecking order, but he's clearly not trusted enough to be an option in competitive games. He's there just as a versatile backup if there's an injury crisis at this stage. Optimism as always is rising pre-game. Should be a good crowd and atmosphere and hopefully the players respond to the setback the way we hope they can. Would love to see us just taking on a few more shots and being a bit more aggressive in attacking the penalty area, we're too happy to just lob in hopeful crosses rather than trying to work it into the box and maybe win a penalty or creating a shooting opportunity from a cut back.

[elatedscum]

Do we reckon Manning just isn’t an international player at this stage? He’s 25,been playing regularly for a few years in the Championship and left back isn’t exactly a position of strength…..

I think he’s a viable LCB in a 3. His passing is good and he’s progressive there and a good footballer. Not sure he’s really a left back, just doesn’t really have the pace required for the position in the modern game

[paul_oshea]

Saw this on RTE this morning: https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2022/0607/1303538-football-takes-a-back-seat-as-ukraine-arrive-in-dublin/

A loss to Armenia is "Eight steps forward, one step back" (the eight referring to the streak of avoiding losses, that included the 1-1 home draw with Azerbaijan and that awful performance against Lithuania)? And "does [winning the group] really going to matter to the regular Irish football fan?" I'm loath to agree with certain people on here who get very loud whenever Ireland mess up, but Kenny is getting an easy ride from certain quarters.
.

Funny I was looking at this earlier, and another article on rte, also one on independent.ie but i cant find it now, which effectively said "having lost to Armenia any hopes of winning/topping the group are now gone". Where did that come from in a day? Its like the media is setting the expectations for the fans early, so that any schtick to measure or in some instance beat Kenny with are short and thin. I'd never really noticed anything in the media more a faux-nonchalance or radio silence, but this is getting a bit ridiculous now.

[paul_oshea]

Daft article alright.

On the Lithuania game actually, I see they lost 6-0 at home to Turkey and 2-0 at home to Luxembourg in the Nations League this week. It'll be interesting to see how Scotland fare against Armenia tonight. You're right to put the 8-game unbeaten run into some context, and I think the results noted don't put the Lithuania struggle in a positive light anyway. (Not that most of us didn't know this anyway)

Another thing thats pretty ridiculous in the media that I hadnt noticed so much up until recently was this "pull a random stat into a context that means nothing to generate a good light". 6 in 10, 2 in 12 etc etc. They mean nothing.

Where are all the greenshoots now though?

[Jd2793]

I think he’s a viable LCB in a 3. His passing is good and he’s progressive there and a good footballer. Not sure he’s really a left back, just doesn’t really have the pace required for the position in the modern game


Seems to be echo'd by swansea fans. Definitely not a wing back anyway if pace is the issue.

[paul_oshea]

There comes a time in intl football when there is a first 11, (for the most part) regardless of an off game. The manager sticks with the first 11 (for the most part) through thick and thin. If that's not so with Ireland then we are still experimenting with prospective players, we are still not settled on our best 11, we are still in the process of team building. That means that after 2 years, either we are afflicted with an indecisive incompetent management or/and a bunch of players not good enough to nail down their place at this level.

Interestingly this is the team for Ireland V Denmark under Mick:
Randolph, Doherty, Duffy, Egan, Stevens, Browne, Hendrick, Whelan, Hourihane, McClean, McGoldrick

This is Kennys one against Bulgaria:
Randolph; Doherty, Duffy, Egan , Stevens; McCarthy, Idah; Hendrick, Hourihane, O'Dowda, Connolly

This was against Belgium:
Kelleher, Coleman, Duffy, Egan, Doherty, Cullen, Hendrick, McClean, Knight, Ogbene, Robinson

There's not much difference between the two sides at the end and start of reigns apart from a couple of retirements, whats noticeable though is those who were shoe-horned in idah/connolly and to a lesser extent O'dowda are nowhere near good enough and proved to be poor selection choices.

Looking at the Belgium game proves we are still fairly reliant on the older pros and his initial idea of just fast tracking u21s and young up and coming individuals was short sighted - ogbene appeared from relative obscurity but clearly impressed in that september pick, Robinson was in and around the team anyway and as I had pointed out was a good player : D and Cullen similarly was in/around the squad and already made his debut the previous year.

[Jd2793]

Interestingly this is the team for Ireland V Denmark under Mick:
Randolph, Doherty, Duffy, Egan, Stevens, Browne, Hendrick, Whelan, Hourihane, McClean, McGoldrick

This is Kennys one against Bulgaria:
Randolph; Doherty, Duffy, Egan , Stevens; McCarthy, Idah; Hendrick, Hourihane, O'Dowda, Connolly

This was against Belgium:
Kelleher, Coleman, Duffy, Egan, Doherty, Cullen, Hendrick, McClean, Knight, Ogbene, Robinson

There's not much difference between the two sides at the end and start of reigns apart from a couple of retirements, whats noticeable though is those who were shoe-horned in idah/connolly and to a lesser extent O'dowda are nowhere near good enough and proved to be poor selection choices.

Looking at the Belgium game proves we are still fairly reliant on the older pros and his initial idea of just fast tracking u21s and young up and coming individuals was short sighted.


idah has been pretty good in most games for ireland tbh. connollys been dreadful though

[Eirambler]

Manning isn't quick enough to play wing back, or tall or commanding enough to play centre back. I don't know what you could do with him really - maybe a deep lying midfielder or something, but we seem to have a few of those coming through that are specialists in the position, so probably no use for him there either.

I can't see him ever being much more than squad cover unless we're really stuck. We may see Bagan and Adaramola replace Stevens and McClean at LWB in the next couple of years with Manning continuing as a backup.

[third policeman]

Manning isn't quick enough to play wing back, or tall or commanding enough to play centre back. I don't know what you could do with him really - maybe a deep lying midfielder or something, but we seem to have a few of those coming through that are specialists in the position, so probably no use for him there either.

I can't see him ever being much more than squad cover unless we're really stuck. We may see Bagan and Adaramola replace Stevens and McClean at LWB in the next couple of years with Manning continuing as a backup.

I sincerely hope we’re not waiting two more years for those changes.

[paul_oshea]

I see Ukraine have said they will play 11 different players from the start tonight. Thats interesting. They'll be playing for their families tonight.

Going with 1-1 - though i have a sneaking feeling Ukraine will score a very late winner.

[SkStu]

It is a pity that so many people are looking at this in such a black or white manner as it relates to SK's suitability for the job. I thought there would be more in the middle on the topic, more that would see the fact that it is still a little grey. It seems like the 2 years of transition (Paul, your example line ups to make a point that there has been limited transition omit so much important context) that SK has overseen has unfairly become a stick to beat him with. I say all this with a belief that stability has arrived, vision is established and that, importantly, positive results and consistent performances are now expected as the norm, at a minimum against our peers and lower. Armenia is the first major black mark against him in my book.

[tetsujin1979]

The first, really? Not Luxembourg? Not going behind to Andorra and Azerbaijan?

[SkStu]

The first, really? Not Luxembourg? Not going behind to Andorra and Azerbaijan?

Yeah, the first major one. Don't get me wrong, the rest are definite blemishes (Andorra is irrelevant to me though, we won well). Of these, Luxembourg was particularly tough, a true low, but there was context which mitigated those for me. Primarily, with a new approach and a new and more inexperienced team it is fairly reasonable to expect a few setbacks here and there on an individual game basis. The big picture trajectory since has been objectively and consistently upward, the mitigating factors receding and therefore the expectations solidifying by the time we get to Armenia.

[tetsujin1979]

Fair enough, the Andorran goal was the lowest point of Kenny's return at that point for me. Considering it was scored from a similar area to the Luxembourg goal, I was wondering what reviews were being done by the coaching team.
I said it at the time that the biggest factor in the result against Andorra was the fitness and conditioning of the Irish players, the Andorrans were wilting by the end of the game

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Let us not forget here, Stephen Kenny has won 2 competitive games. Against Azerbaijan and Luxembourg. That's it. 2 games against minnows. He's been in charge for over 2 years now and the majority of matches we've played have been against average to poor opposition.

I don't think it's possible for anyone to do worse than Kenny has. It really is as bad as even the most pessimistic person could have predicted. Tonight we're playing against Ukraine B at home. There are no excuses, we should win.

[Razors left peg]

Team as expected. Knight for Parrott and Christie for Coleman.

10 Changes for Ukraine. Need to be winning this

[pineapple stu]

The first, really? Not Luxembourg? Not going behind to Andorra and Azerbaijan?
Exactly this for me.

If the Nations League was the honeymoon period and Luxembourg was the one free hit, then Andorra, Azerbaijan and Armenia have all been major black marks

[Trequartista20]

No major surprises in the team selected. Christie and Knight should provide some much needed energy and verve. I thought Kenny might have swapped Stevens out for McClean.

After tonight there can't be many UEFA nations left that we haven't played. Moldova is the only one I can think of.

[pineapple stu]

We played Moldova in 2017

Slovenia and Kosovo I think is all

Meanwhile, the match programme starts off by referring to our "impressive" 1-0 win over Lithuania, and goes on to say "A positive result and performance against Armenia was just the start Kenny could have asked for". And on the same page, it has the result as a 1-0 defeat

[BonnieShels]

Team as expected. Knight for Parrott and Christie for Coleman.

10 Changes for Ukraine. Need to be winning this

We really do. They've had 2 stonking games in the last 10 days and have just had the disappointment of getting knocked out of the world cup to those absolute... Ahem... So I'd expect them to be pretty flat with the 10 changes to boot.

But who the hell knows at this point.

[SkStu]

As I said a few days ago, 7 points from the next 3 games keeps me happy enough. You'd think that this has to be 3 of those 7 points.

[pineapple stu]

Their keeper is the Real Madrid reserve from the CL final, coincidentally enough (seeing as his Liverpool counterpart is starting for us)

They're still better than Armenia I'd say. But so many changes has to help us. Doesn't it?

[seanfhear]

We played Moldova in 2017

Slovenia and Kosovo I think is all

Meanwhile, the match programme starts off by referring to our "impressive" 1-0 win over Lithuania, and goes on to say "A positive result and performance against Armenia was just the start Kenny could have asked for". And on the same page, it has the result as a 1-0 defeat
A lot of propaganda about these days ~ In so many fields ! !

[tetsujin1979]

No major surprises in the team selected. Christie and Knight should provide some much needed energy and verve. I thought Kenny might have swapped Stevens out for McClean.

After tonight there can't be many UEFA nations left that we haven't played. Moldova is the only one I can think of.

Slovenia and Kosovo are the only ones left now

[SkStu]

Exactly this for me.

If the Nations League was the honeymoon period and Luxembourg was the one free hit, then Andorra, Azerbaijan and Armenia have all been major black marks

I totally understand that perspective. I just don't think size of the job in front of SK over the last couple of years and the subsequent rollercoaster was not to be expected. I'm giving that some weight, maybe too generously, but maybe others (not you per se) are not being generous enough?

The other interesting thing is how much the public has backed him and has continued to stand behind what he is trying to do. In the face of these black marks (or blemishes :)). I think most of these same people will be expecting improvements and consistency in results in this campaign to maintain that goodwill. Anyway, i just find the dynamic overall to be quite fascinating.