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EnDai
21/07/2005, 5:15 PM
http://www.elevenaside.com/euroclub/irish_soccer_detail.asp?newsid=18321


Glentoran manager Roy Coyle has urged soccer authorities north of the border to consider implementing a summer calendar after watching his side fall to a demoralizing 6-2 aggregate defeat to eircom League champions Shelbourne.

A 4-1 second leg at Tolka Park on Wednesday night win saw Shels stroll through to a second qualifying round meeting with Steaua Bucharest of Romania.

This is the third year of summer soccer south of the border, and Shels’ win on Wednesday night extended eircom League clubs’ 100 per cent record in Champions League and Uefa Cup matches this season.

And Coyle, who was without players for both legs due to holiday commitments, feels the Irish League would do well to follow the Republic’s example – while he also underlined the need for improved playing conditions in the north.

He said: “I’ve said for a long time about summer football in the north, why not try it and see if it works?

“But the one thing you have to do if you’re going to think about producing summer football is to work on the pitches.

“There are an awful lot of pitches that need an awful lot of work in the north before we can begin to address that issue.”

pete
21/07/2005, 5:55 PM
If Glentoran had even attempted to prepare they'd have at least had a chance.

-lamb-
21/07/2005, 6:36 PM
typical of mr.coyle to come out with this now.
some people see summer football as the holy grail and the answer to all the ills of the world..........nonsense.
summer football has its pro's and con's, like everything else.
sure hasn't there even been some unhappy voices regarding summer football from within the EL already?

A face
21/07/2005, 9:54 PM
sure hasn't there even been some unhappy voices regarding summer football from within the EL already?

But you'd have to see who the voices belong to first !!

There is no getting away from it, now matter how to skip around it and choose your words carefully, Clubs will have to work to get success ..... Summer soccer is not the answer for failing clubs .... it was just what we needed in the eL to move things along, the benefits are great so far, pitfalls there too .... BUT ....... and i mean this ...... Summer soccer (or anything else) cannot be used as an excuse for failing clubs. It is not a golden ticket to pass the buck for their short comings

The bit of an upturn that is happening in the league is partly due to the UEFA licensing being implemented. It is mostly down to club operating realistically and honestly and trying to improve what they've got.

Blaming and asking to shange from summer soccer is like moving the deck chairs around on the titanic.

A face
21/07/2005, 10:05 PM
some people see summer football as the holy grail and the answer to all the ills of the world..........nonsense.

Not the holy grail ... but it is alot better for the players, the fans, the possiblity of a good (real) media deal. There are alot of pluses and to be fair ... there are more pluses than minus's (??) for summer soccer IMO.

And for the people who disagree ...... i ask you to try and remember back when it was winter soccer ?? Maybe just me but was it really dull dower shíte, loved it ... dont get me wrong but chríst above, it is so muxh better now.

glentoranfan
22/07/2005, 1:14 PM
Something like this was bound to be said. However, this has been batting around in the North for years now. Coyle is not the first to say it, nor will he be last. I think that the Glentoran v. Shels tie has just finally made people realise something needs down.

Attendances in the IL are very poor. Glentoran, going for the league with an average home gate of around 1100, Linfield going for the league with 1800, Portadown going for the league until the final 2 or 3 games with 300 people watching a match at home. That shows something is seriously wrong and that the IL has nothing to lose trying summer football.

I am all for it, always have been, and Wednesday's diar performance only confirms that. We know it won't suddenly solve everything, because it won't, but it is a step in the right direction.

Macy
22/07/2005, 3:21 PM
Attendances in the IL are very poor. Glentoran, going for the league with an average home gate of around 1100, Linfield going for the league with 1800, Portadown going for the league until the final 2 or 3 games with 300 people watching a match at home. That shows something is seriously wrong and that the IL has nothing to lose trying summer football.
But summer football isn't the panacea in terms of attendances either. I'm really not convinced about the overall merits - the benefits in Europe should be there, whether an extra game or two in Europe really makes much a difference to the rest of league also remains to be seen.

The pro summer football lobby thought it would increase attendances, it hasn't, now they say european progress will increase attendances - it didn't for shels last season. Anything to do with marketing is as much applicable to winter football as summer football, so imo they should be discarded. Ditto setanta start up and increase competition for sports, rather than setanta starting because of the football.

The only club that has significantly increased attendances in the last few years is Cork, and imo summer football is way behind a winning team in contributing factors...

Castle Barracks
22/07/2005, 5:10 PM
Not only in the North,lads,but here in Wales as well!We'll probably see an experimemt in summer footy in the Welsh Premier in the next3-5 seasons!Especially as the Secretary,John Deakin,is a keen advocate!

GavinZac
24/07/2005, 4:17 AM
The only club that has significantly increased attendances in the last few years is Cork
we've always have this level of support, 3-4000 for home games and 5-6000 for big games. thats not an issue. if longfords attendances have not grown during the summer seasons, especially with no competing GAA side, it is down to them.


and imo summer football is way behind a winning team in contributing factors...

for:
better pitches
better enjoyment (no rain)
more future fans ( school kids on holidays)
no competition from EPL
ten-fold improvement in european performances.

against: some clubs are experiencing the normal fluctuations they have in support rather than suddenly 10,000 turning up to every game as they hoped.

Da Real Rover
24/07/2005, 11:34 AM
I rathered the cold, dark winter atmosphere at games, than this summer football but improvement in Europe is the only way to move the league forward and show the barstoolers that we can compete with the best.

niftynigel
24/07/2005, 9:01 PM
Having just got back from a long weekend of football in Ireland (both sides of the border), we asked every club on their thoughts of summer football so far.

The 2005 season is the 3rd season of three in the 'summer experiment'. There does appear to be a slight majority at the moment, so I at least expect the experiment to continue, maybe for another three years. The world doesn't change overnight and really three years / seasons isn't long enough to establish definite trends.

From a purely selfish point of view, I like summer football in the League Of Ireland. Reasonable weather (not the hot and humid weather of the SE of England) in the summer. I like the idea of matches played in summer evenings. You can take all day to get to a match at a leisurely pace.

I think the Irish League should consider summer football. Then there could more easily be an expanded Setanta Cup with league seasons aligned and indeed, although Shelbourne were better than Glentoran in the UCL, a more fairer comparison of the respective champions could be made if both leagues had parallel seasons.

As for the Welsh Premier League, I'm not so sure. All feeder leagues would have to follow suit and that would be a problem in Wales - there isn't support lower down. You also have the Welsh teams in the Football League and the semi pro ones in Conference, Southern and Northern Premier Leagues.

Slash/ED
24/07/2005, 10:21 PM
Not only in the North,lads,but here in Wales as well!We'll probably see an experimemt in summer footy in the Welsh Premier in the next3-5 seasons!Especially as the Secretary,John Deakin,is a keen advocate!

Yeah the Welsh FA have even had discussions with the FAI about how it's been for us and asking for advice and things like that iirc.

lofty9
25/07/2005, 9:40 AM
Here's an interesting fact: Glentoran players do not get paid until the start of the LEAGUE season.

pete
25/07/2005, 10:59 AM
Here's an interesting fact: Glentoran players do not get paid until the start of the LEAGUE season.

I don't know much about the IL but seems the top 3 clubs been living in a comfort zone for a while now. I'm sure the Setanta Cup & now the CL tie with Shels will awaken them to their potential.

It'll be very interesting to see how the IL players & fans approach the Setanta Cup next season. I think that will give indications on possibility on All Island league in the near future...

-lamb-
25/07/2005, 10:14 PM
I don't know much about the IL but seems the top 3 clubs been living in a comfort zone for a while now. I'm sure the Setanta Cup & now the CL tie with Shels will awaken them to their potential.

It'll be very interesting to see how the IL players & fans approach the Setanta Cup next season. I think that will give indications on possibility on All Island league in the near future...

i've no doubt fans of the strongest teams will be strongly in favour of an all-ireland league, but what about the rest of us (north and south)? i'd be very wary as i can envisage the rest of the teams getting a worse deal than they already have, along with the knock on effect of losing respective top flight status and all that goes with it - lower sponsorship, lower attendance, weaker players, a kind of "zone of no return" really.
a pipedream idea that if implemented has the potential of killing off football once and for all, or almost certainly killing off some of the smaller clubs at best.

Lux Interior
25/07/2005, 11:36 PM
Here's an interesting fact: Glentoran players do not get paid until the start of the LEAGUE season.

They are paid for 40 weeks out of 52.

dcfcsteve
26/07/2005, 1:14 AM
i've no doubt fans of the strongest teams will be strongly in favour of an all-ireland league, but what about the rest of us (north and south)? i'd be very wary as i can envisage the rest of the teams getting a worse deal than they already have, along with the knock on effect of losing respective top flight status and all that goes with it - lower sponsorship, lower attendance, weaker players, a kind of "zone of no return" really.
a pipedream idea that if implemented has the potential of killing off football once and for all, or almost certainly killing off some of the smaller clubs at best.

I think your fears would be justified if an all-island league did nothing to expand the game here. However - the hope and expectation would be that a single league would generate increased interest, support, sponsorship etc that would perculate to ALL levels. It wouldn't be hard for even the smallest teams to do better than they currently are financially and support-wise, so fringe teams should have little to fear.

I would even assert that not implementing an all-island league will actually kill football at ALL levels on the island. As football in Europe continually changes and a de-facto European league continues to slowly evolve, the Eircom League and Irish League are increasingly irrelevant footballing sideshows/anomalies to the majority of the population on both sides of the border. Merging our leagues gives an opportunity to generate interest, without which we'll all surely die in the face of much stronger products.

As an aside - as has been debated on this site numerous times before, there's a very strong case for 'killing off' (or, more accuraetly, returning to Junior/Intermediate football) a number of the smaller clubs on both sides of the border. The Irish League in particular has an absurd number of teams given the size of the province. Exactly what do the likes of Ballinamallard, Coagh and Dublin City add to Irish football.....?

-lamb-
26/07/2005, 3:09 AM
Exactly what do the likes of Ballinamallard, Coagh and Dublin City add to Irish football.....?

they give somewhere for footballers to play, somewhere for them to improve, to try and get noticed, allowing a bigger club to pick them out?
ballinamallard, though relegated to div.2 last year, have a good rep for producing decent youth players and are fermanagh's sole representative in the semi-upper reaches at the minute (though enniskillen "something" are supposed to be expanding their ambition and spending a bit of money).

by the way, all clubs not in the irish premier league ARE already classed as intermediate or amateur clubs.would you say northern ireland has a higher number of clubs than, say, scotland? maybe we have more because historically we have supported the game more than the south (no offence)?

i think another part of the attendance problem (around larne anyway) is that the amateur teams also play on saturday afternoons and i know for a fact that this has a big effect on larne fc (eg. our catchment area has 3 top amateur teams and around 3 others) and most of those players/families do support larne but can't get to too many games. it's also ridiculous that the senior team should even have to think about moving away from saturday matches to accomodate this.

dcfcsteve
27/07/2005, 12:51 AM
they give somewhere for footballers to play, somewhere for them to improve, to try and get noticed, allowing a bigger club to pick them out?

They could still do that sure, regardless of what league structure they were in.


By the way, all clubs not in the irish premier league ARE already classed as intermediate or amateur clubs.would you say northern ireland has a higher number of clubs than, say, scotland? maybe we have more because historically we have supported the game more than the south (no offence)?

To be fair Lamb, the main reason there's more clubs in the Irish League is simply because the IFA went ahead with a daft expansion to 28 clubs a few years back !! Before that expansion, the EL had 6 more teams than the IL. There are teams outside of the Eircom League as well, you know - we just don't let them in for the sake of it...... :) And Scotland has over 300% the population of Norn Iron, yet only 50% more senior clubs......


i think another part of the attendance problem (around larne anyway) is that the amateur teams also play on saturday afternoons and i know for a fact that this has a big effect on larne fc (eg. our catchment area has 3 top amateur teams and around 3 others) and most of those players/families do support larne but can't get to too many games. it's also ridiculous that the senior team should even have to think about moving away from saturday matches to accomodate this.

Yee's could always play on a Sunday........ !? :p ;)

-lamb-
27/07/2005, 1:15 AM
To be fair Lamb, the main reason there's more clubs in the Irish League is simply because the IFA went ahead with a daft expansion to 28 clubs a few years back !! Before that expansion, the EL had 6 more teams than the IL. There are teams outside of the Eircom League as well, you know - we just don't let them in for the sake of it...... :) And Scotland has over 300% the population of Norn Iron, yet only 50% more senior clubs......



Yee's could always play on a Sunday........ !? :p ;)

1) there are only 16 senior teams in northern ireland - the 16 in the premier league. that's it. very roughly that's 1 per 100,000 people. you think that's too many?
div.1 and div.2 are all intermediate.
ballinamallard and coagh are both intermediate clubs. ballinamallard are in div.2. how far down would you want them to be in a pyramid structure with a small base?!

2) i know you're being light hearted here, but why should we? i have no particular issue with it other than for me saturday at 3pm is the best and traditional time for football.
in all seriousness, where else would amateur football take precedence over senior football?

dcfcsteve
27/07/2005, 4:39 PM
1) there are only 16 senior teams in northern ireland - the 16 in the premier league. that's it. very roughly that's 1 per 100,000 people. you think that's too many?

To be honest - 1 club per 100,000 of population does feel a bit high for Norn Ireland - especially given that it's about 1 in 60,000 for the Belfast region (even with Crus relegated). Also - looking at other leagues nearby, the figures are :

ENGLAND : 1 in 435,000 (in a country absolutely obsessed with football)
ROI : 1 in 181,000
SCOTLAND : 1 IN 120,000.

And I don't accept this notion of only 16 senior clubs in the north. It's not that simple, given promotion and relegation. Are Crusaders, Carrick, Bangor and Ballyclare all honestly and magically no longer 'senior' clubs since they got relegated ? Were Glenavon magically non-senior, then magically senior again when the same club went up and down in a short period of time ?Maybe technically 'yes' as that is the semantics of being relegated in the IL, but they are still the same clubs that have been around in the senior league for years. Describing the Daily Mirror Irish League First Division as 'intermediate' is just like changing the English First Division into the English Premiership - its just semantics. At least a third of the IL First has played in the IL Premier at some stage in the recent past.


2) i know you're being light hearted here, but why should we? i have no particular issue with it other than for me saturday at 3pm is the best and traditional time for football.
in all seriousness, where else would amateur football take precedence over senior football?

And in all seriousness, where else would the religious strictures of a minority of the population (particularly in a society scarred by decades of cultural-religious strife) take precedence over senior football ? Maybe in non-Western nations like Israel or Saudi Arabia - but in 21st Century Europe..... ? :confused: :p

-lamb-
27/07/2005, 8:24 PM
And in all seriousness, where else would the religious strictures of a minority of the population (particularly in a society scarred by decades of cultural-religious strife) take precedence over senior football ? Maybe in non-Western nations like Israel or Saudi Arabia - but in 21st Century Europe..... ? :confused: :p

don't get me wrong, i totally agree that the rule is archaic (even the recent proposal to change wasn't about forcing teams to play on a sunday but giving them an option if all agreed. there's also internal IFA politics going on here to do with a lack of will on some parts to relinquish control and an attitude of "if i can't win i'll bring them all down with me"), BUT at the same time the vast majority of fans still want matches on saturday afternoons and my point was, since that is the case, why should a senior team have to even consider moving their games to suit amateur football organisers? it makes little sense. i know there would be some logistical problems regarding pitch availability but realistically the only result is lost gates for their senior team and denial of the amateur players (and whatever family that goes to watch) their chance to support their local senior team.

niftynigel
27/07/2005, 10:12 PM
Lamb and dcfcsteve - This is a really interesting debate. The structure in England below the '92' (Premier League, Championship, League One and League Two).

It used to be that these were the only professional teams in England (i.e. paid for full 52 weeks a year) and that some league below that were considered semi professional (i.e. paid from August to May roughly).

However, the National Conference, which is below League Two is nearly all full time professional now and even some of the Conference North and South teams below it are starting to go that way! How the clubs can afford this is beyond me - it's chasing the (near) impossible dream with overnight success!

Below this we have the Northern Premier, Southern and Isthmian Leagues who all have a Premier Division and either one or two regional Division One's. These are all semi-professional, paying from the top maybe £500GBP per week down to about £50GBP per week!

Below this is the Non League 'Step Five' League's, many whose clubs' players are paid, so they are semi-professional. There are 15 of these leagues, shortly to be reduced to 12 as there is likely to be a new 'Midland Premier and Division One' at NL Steps Three and Four, so many clubs to be promoted and less leagues below!

Most of the Step Five leagues have a lower division at Step Six and generally, here ends the 'Senior' divisions in the Southern half of England. In the Northern/Midland half, Senior goes right down to Step Seven (county leagues). It's a real mess as it's County FAs who decide 'senior' or 'intermediate' status! Some leagues have senior and intermediate clubs in the same division!

Scotland is equally stupid. You have Scottish Premier, Scottish League One to Three. Then there is Highland, East Of Scotland and South Of Scotland Leagues who are senior. Most other areas of the country have 'junior' clubs, who are in terms of support, grounds etc, bigger than some SL clubs!

I don't see anything wrong with the IFL having more than one division, indeed I think there are more positives in having more clubs under the umbrella of one identifiable league rather than lots with differing standards as in England and Scotland.

Although Wales is frowned upon by some in England, at least their 'pyramid' is taking shape, although the boat could be rocked if they go for summer football. The Welsh Premier League couldn't do it in isolation and lower down there isn't the support.

I would like to see more clubs in the League Of Ireland. Maybe two extras to make 2 x 12 club divisions. Mullingar and Newbridge anybody?

Your thoughts....

pete
28/07/2005, 1:50 AM
The IFA ban on sunday football is apparently illegal under Uefa & Fifa rules. I think i read the British government will withhold funding unless changed too.

mypost
28/07/2005, 4:35 AM
for me saturday at 3pm is the best and traditional time for football.

Only in the UK.

We thankfully have no tradition of, nor demand for, playing league games at 3pm on Saturdays in the Republic. Saturday games are always played in the evening here, like in the rest of Europe. :) Sadly however, the FAI insist that we should play home International games at 3pm on Saturdays, out of kilter with when most other countries play. :rolleyes: :(

-lamb-
28/07/2005, 10:00 AM
The IFA ban on sunday football is apparently illegal under Uefa & Fifa rules. I think i read the British government will withhold funding unless changed too.
hence it's important to note the part i placed in brackets.-
(...there's also internal IFA politics going on here to do with a lack of will on some parts to relinquish control and an attitude of "if i can't win i'll bring them all down with me")

mypost - "Only in the UK.

We thankfully have no tradition of, nor demand for, playing league games at 3pm on Saturdays in the Republic."

you say that like its a problem...not for the majority of supporters who want to watch football in the uk though.
each to their own on that count (including arranging sunday games if they wish). my only problem with it is the clash with amateur league games.