1st Division - Season 2022

[sullanefc]

9 team league playing 4 times. Thoughts?

I thought a 27 game season last year was amateur hour so at least they have upped it to 32 games, but having an uneven number of teams in it is a bit of a joke.

[sidewayspasser]

It seems to me the FAI didn't even try to find a 10th team. Maybe they didn't want to ask Rovers for a B team again after the debate it caused last time around, but they could at least have sought expressions of interest. Would be interesting to know how early Bray and Cabo might have flagged it to the FAI that they were going to merge. Did they leave it too late for the FAI to look for someone to fill the 10th place?

Looking beyond next season, if the third tier is introduced (don't hold your breath...) in 2023, they still would have to fill the 10th place in the FD, unless they reduce it to 8 and relegate one FD team to the third tier. So I don't think that would be a valid excuse not to fill the place now.

[total hoofball]

32 games with even amount of home/away games definitely better than 27 games though one team not playing every round is still not ideal but if it's only for one season and for 2023 with 10 teams/36 games that will be progress because I don't expect a 3rd tier will happen

The play-off structure that a team finishing 5th out of 9 teams can still secure promotion is a joke I had expected that would be changed with the expanded campaign

[Jd2793]

rovers II should have been allowed in , 9 teams is embarrassing. Giving 1 team per week a by is a terrible look for the league.

[Martinho II]

Irish Sea FC from Kildare wont be too happy with this. Its second season in a row that its happened to them.

[DCSIL]

Were Shamrock Rovers interested in a B team this time round? Seemed to be a favour to the FAI last time it was introduced.

[sullanefc]

rovers II should have been allowed in , 9 teams is embarrassing. Giving 1 team per week a by is a terrible look for the league.
This. I can't understand the push back over B teams in the division.

[sbgawa]

Minnowisim and begrudgery.....I'm not bitter ;)

[legendz]

The play-off structure that a team finishing 5th out of 9 teams can still secure promotion is a joke I had expected that would be changed with the expanded campaign
The playoff structure keeps more teams in the hunt. I can't see First Division clubs voting against it now that it is becoming an established format. They all know at the start that the winner is promoted. 2nd to 5th is a qualifying competition.
All playoff rounds should be over 2 legs in my humble opinion. It'll give more high profile home games, which you think would have a financial benefit as well as boosting the profile of the clubs locally, mainly through local media.

[total hoofball]

The playoff structure keeps more teams in the hunt. I can't see First Division clubs voting against it now that it is becoming an established format. They all know at the start that the winner is promoted. 2nd to 5th is a qualifying competition.
All playoff rounds should be over 2 legs in my humble opinion. It'll give more high profile home games, which you think would have a financial benefit as well as boosting the profile of the clubs locally, mainly through local media.
Remember in 2022 that 15th place out of 19 clubs can end up in the Premier Division

With Longford finishing 4th and stinking up the Premier Division the following season that's all the evidence the FAI needs that the play-off structure is not improving the Premier Division or the First Division that the majority of First Division clubs know mediocrity over a campaign and a hot run in the play-offs is the standard to aspire to

[Longfordian]

That was Shels fault for playing so crap that we managed to win.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Sad state of affairs that we've gotten to this point. As I said in the other thread, the inability of the FAI to make the league attractive to new clubs is one of its great failures.

[yurt]

I must be the only one who is feeling in any way positive about what the first division has to offer going forward. Sure the 9 teams isn't an ideal situation but at least its due to clubs merging to become stronger instead of going to the wall due to pathetic management. At least there is clarity early too, I don't remember the timings but remember the **** show of having 2 sets of fixtures released based on licensing which hadn't been decided yet. Trying to shoehorn in a 10th team could easily end up doing more harm than good to the competition.

Probably too early to say with any certainty just yet but I think the FD is no longer the graveyard that it had been for so so long. With Cork, Galway, Waterford, Bray/Cabo and Treaty all in this league the average attendance should be pretty decent for the division this season. Having 4 playoff spots does minimize the amount of pointless game come the end of the season. I would expect this to reduce if/when relegation is introduced to the first division. I do think that there should be a better reward given to the team coming in 2nd vs 5th. Like giving home advantage to the higher seed in the one off playoff games.

We're really lucky to have the summer season. I can only imagine the nightmare the FAI/LOI would be having right now if we were mid season.

[pineapple stu]

We're really lucky to have the summer season. I can only imagine the nightmare the FAI/LOI would be having right now if we were mid season.
I don't get the relevance of this? Unless you're suggesting Cabo were going to drop out in November regardless of the season - but that doesn't make any sense.

The summer season is the single stupidest, most short-sighted decision the FAI ever made. It's probably the single biggest stumbling block to getting new clubs into the league. We've gone from 22 senior clubs in 2010 to 19 now and it's harder than ever to see where a new club is going to come from.

Galway/Cork/Treaty/Waterford in the First Division just speaks volumes about how badly many clubs are run tbh. (Bit harsh on Treaty I guess, but I'm counting them as Limerick football in general)

There's nothing at all positive about this (other than getting rid of that Irish Sea FC numpty)

[Jd2793]

I don't get the relevance of this? Unless you're suggesting Cabo were going to drop out in November regardless of the season - but that doesn't make any sense.

The summer season is the single stupidest, most short-sighted decision the FAI ever made. It's probably the single biggest stumbling block to getting new clubs into the league. We've gone from 22 senior clubs in 2010 to 19 now and it's harder than ever to see where a new club is going to come from.



Summer season has improved the product massively. Dont think theres a doubt about that.

[pineapple stu]

I don't think that's as clear cut as you're making out, but regardless, it doesn't stop the decision being the stupidest, most short-sighted decision the FAI ever made. Even you're just thinking about it in an LoI context without considering the damaging impact of the complete and unique separation between senior and intermediate/junior football which is a primary reason why the league is shrinking

Move all football seasons or move none. Chasing Euro money with summer football at the expense of the structure and possibly the sustainability of the league - which is what we've done - is the problem.

[sbgawa]

The FAI should have insisted in the past on ALL leagues moving to Summer Season.....they should do it now if they had any sense.
The DDSL sabotaged the Trial summer season they had deliberately and used Delaney's removal to go back to the School year when the FAI were in disarray.

The kids don't play in the winter anyway and are now on a break until Feb since two weekends ago.
The current debacle where with squads picked for the u14 LOI season and started training the season has been postponed until July with zero notice to
allow the SFAI to have their Kennedy cup competition at under 14 in June is ominous for the weakness of the FAI board.
This Kennedy cup used to be the shop window for sending our young kids off to England for pennies and then see 95% of them back with no education and broken but is now pointless. No surprise it happened within weeks of Rued Dokter leaving the FAI....
The tinpot blazers in the SFAI ....."They havent gone away you know"

[Stav]

First time Rovers had a B team in league they pulled out after a season so maybe that caused some of the problem. Are teams looking at getting some of these players in on loan and if B team in First division it would close that door.
Fai need to have a real look at the game across the country.
Rovers won the league for the last two years and the prize money for that would hardly pay for the pizzas.

[yurt]

I don't get the relevance of this? Unless you're suggesting Cabo were going to drop out in November regardless of the season - but that doesn't make any sense.

The summer season is the single stupidest, most short-sighted decision the FAI ever made. It's probably the single biggest stumbling block to getting new clubs into the league. We've gone from 22 senior clubs in 2010 to 19 now and it's harder than ever to see where a new club is going to come from.

Galway/Cork/Treaty/Waterford in the First Division just speaks volumes about how badly many clubs are run tbh. (Bit harsh on Treaty I guess, but I'm counting them as Limerick football in general)

There's nothing at all positive about this (other than getting rid of that Irish Sea FC numpty)

I'm guessing you meant to call out the merger as not being of any relevance? My point is fairly straightforward, teams linking up and sharing resources to become stronger in the long term is a far better situation than teams being denied a license.

On the summer season, it was just a fairly basic observation that our season ending in November meant we've avoided the current mess which is playing out in British football and European Rugby currently. Hopefully we will be somewhere near full capacity in stadiums again come summer time and the covid disruption will be minimized.

Fair enough if you don't see any positives in anything ever. It's just my opinion the First Division is in a better place than it was say, 5 years ago.

[pineapple stu]

I'm guessing you meant to call out the merger as not being of any relevance?
No, the timing. I hadn't linked it with covid tbh. Certainly a once-in-a-lifetime (I hope!) pandemic isn't a reason to justify the season being as it is. We also got stuck right in the mess last March don't forget.

I do see positives in things - but the First Division containing Cork, Waterford, Galway and Limerick isn't one of them. Clubs like that should be challenging for the Euro spots in the Premier, not messing about in the First unable to get out of it. The LoI as a whole is weaker for having those clubs in the First Division.

[GUFCghost]

Having a confirmed fixture list this early is good, I can remember a time when the league was a lot more disorganised.

I was recently searching through old foot.ie forums to see what the reaction was to summer football, it was mostly negative. Interestingly nobody discussed the impact it would have on European football at all. I'd love to see an actual comparison of which countries do better in Europe and what impact summer football has on that. It should be worth noting that Mayo has a summer league, if the biggest GAA county in Ireland can do it so can anyone else.

[pineapple stu]

I'd love to see an actual comparison of which countries do better in Europe and what impact summer football has on that.
RSSSF says the countries with summer seasons are Belarus, Estonia, the Faroes, Finland, Georgia, Iceland, Ireland, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway and Sweden.

Really all of those except for us and Georgia - maybe the Baltics too; not sure - do it for weather reasons. Though Russia and Ukraine recently abandoned summer football to improve European results - the logic being it impacted clubs when Nov/Feb games were outside the regular season.

I think when you look at how Bohs and Dundalk nearly caught PAOK/Vitesse on the hop this year, you can see there's a value to it. I think in a group stage match, both those sides would have lost comfortably. Bohs (and UCD) beating Dudelange was given a boost by Dudelange being in pre-season; fitness to an extent (though pro footballers keep fit in pre-season; it's their job) but also in not being used to playing with new players or working with a new manager.

But the value to it is more than offset by the bigger picture, that the LoI is a shrinking ship all on its own in Irish football

[pineapple stu]

Actually, I suppose you also could compare Georgia's UEFA position in 2016 (the last year before they switched to summer football) to its position now (after five seasons of summer football, its coefficient is now entirely summer football)

They were 40th, and now they're 47th...

[sbgawa]

What gets me is the *****s running the ddsl are now breaking from mid Dec to Feb anyway

[sullanefc]

Summer season has improved the product massively. Dont think theres a doubt about that.
This.

[EatYerGreens]

RSSSF says the countries with summer seasons are Belarus, Estonia, the Faroes, Finland, Georgia, Iceland, Ireland, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway and Sweden.

Really all of those except for us and Georgia - maybe the Baltics too; not sure - do it for weather reasons. Though Russia and Ukraine recently abandoned summer football to improve European results - the logic being it impacted clubs when Nov/Feb games were outside the regular season.

I think when you look at how Bohs and Dundalk nearly caught PAOK/Vitesse on the hop this year, you can see there's a value to it. I think in a group stage match, both those sides would have lost comfortably. Bohs (and UCD) beating Dudelange was given a boost by Dudelange being in pre-season; fitness to an extent (though pro footballers keep fit in pre-season; it's their job) but also in not being used to playing with new players or working with a new manager.

But the value to it is more than offset by the bigger picture, that the LoI is a shrinking ship all on its own in Irish football

The Baltics would doubltess be for weather - the clue is in how the term is used in English ! :)

As well as Georgia, Kazakhstan is a mixed-bag re weather and Summer football. It's such a huge place that parts of the country are freezing in the winter whilst at the same time you could sunbathe in the capital Astana (a bit like the US really). The northern bit of Georgia can get very cold in Winter too, so you can see why weather would play at least some role in a Summer season switch there.

[pineapple stu]

Well true, even if Hiberno-English* slang isn't entirely the most scientific method to evaluate football seasons! :p

Latvia/Lithuania/Estonia are by the sea, which should help them a bit. This week the Baltic capitals are looking at -8 or so (and that's at the coldest, which is in the morning), compared to Moscow or Rovaniemi at -20. Even Warsaw is going down to -16 this week. So they're not as bad as others. -8 is still very cold (and it'll get colder again in Jan/Feb), but quite playable. But they could certainly manage a Jul-May season with a winter break. They've just never changed over from the USSR summer league schedule, and reaching the group stages or even the knock-outs (which is why Russia/Ukraine changed) has never been a worry.

So there's definitely an element whereby our phraseology could be more accurate, even if "Baltic" is a cool word!

Reykjavik and Torshavn are actually around 0 or a couple of degrees above this week, but I think they've a culture of indoor sports during winter when the sun's rarely up, and then outdoor sports during summer.

There aren't any clubs in the north of Georgia really (probably because it's so mountainous and inaccessible). They did change their season after getting independence, and then changed back. I'm sure it's online somewhere exactly why they changed, but I can't find it after a brief google (and keep getting result on Georgia the state...)


* - is it Irish-specific actually? In my mind it is, but don't know if the phrase is used elsewhere.

[EatYerGreens]

Well true, even if Hiberno-English* slang isn't entirely the most scientific method to evaluate football seasons! :p

Latvia/Lithuania/Estonia are by the sea, which should help them a bit. This week the Baltic capitals are looking at -8 or so (and that's at the coldest, which is in the morning), compared to Moscow or Rovaniemi at -20. Even Warsaw is going down to -16 this week. So they're not as bad as others. -8 is still very cold (and it'll get colder again in Jan/Feb), but quite playable. But they could certainly manage a Jul-May season with a winter break. They've just never changed over from the USSR summer league schedule, and reaching the group stages or even the knock-outs (which is why Russia/Ukraine changed) has never been a worry.

So there's definitely an element whereby our phraseology could be more accurate, even if "Baltic" is a cool word!

Reykjavik and Torshavn are actually around 0 or a couple of degrees above this week, but I think they've a culture of indoor sports during winter when the sun's rarely up, and then outdoor sports during summer.

There aren't any clubs in the north of Georgia really (probably because it's so mountainous and inaccessible). They did change their season after getting independence, and then changed back. I'm sure it's online somewhere exactly why they changed, but I can't find it after a brief google (and keep getting result on Georgia the state...)


* - is it Irish-specific actually? In my mind it is, but don't know if the phrase is used elsewhere.

I've no idea what the above is about really Stu. Minus 8 is fcuking cold. Hence why people in a number of English-speaking places (not just Ireland) use 'Baltic' as a way of describing cold weather. That doesn't mean there are no places colder than the Baltic countries - whether or not they're by the sea. And I don't really care about the weather forecast in Poland or Russa either, truth be told :D

It's honestly hard to know if some of your posts are a wind up, an attempt to show off, a desire to appear superior or simply looking to pick an argument sometimes :ball:

[pineapple stu]

The point is simple - some colder countries (eg Russia) don't play a winter season. Summer seasons (eg Iceland/Faroes) aren't necessarily because of freezing cold (though I can imagine short winter days there causing problems with pitch maintenance)

-8 is quite ok for playing football in (I've been at a match in Ukraine in -12 for example).

So why do the Baltics have summer seasons? Is it because of the weather? A bit, but not entirely (which is what I said in my original post you challenged). But there's likely tradition behind it too, going back to the USSR, and there's no really compelling reason to change.

So I don't agree it's "doubtless to do with weather" as you suggest

Edit - actually, I see Estonia and Lithuania both changed to a winter season (with a winter break) immediately on gaining independence, and stayed that way for most of the 90s before changing back. That'd suggest weather isn't "doubtless" the reason for their current setup, and possibly European results were a consideration too. Can't find anything online about the change back though after a very brief google.

[sullanefc]

I've no idea what the above is about really Stu. Minus 8 is fcuking cold. Hence why people in a number of English-speaking places (not just Ireland) use 'Baltic' as a way of describing cold weather. That doesn't mean there are no places colder than the Baltic countries - whether or not they're by the sea. And I don't really care about the weather forecast in Poland or Russa either, truth be told :D

It's honestly hard to know if some of your posts are a wind up, an attempt to show off, a desire to appear superior or simply looking to pick an argument sometimes :ball:
Mega lol!!! :D

[EatYerGreens]

The point is simple - some colder countries (eg Russia) don't play a winter season. Summer seasons (eg Iceland/Faroes) aren't necessarily because of freezing cold (though I can imagine short winter days there causing problems with pitch maintenance)

-8 is quite ok for playing football in (I've been at a match in Ukraine in -12 for example).

So why do the Baltics have summer seasons? Is it because of the weather? A bit, but not entirely (which is what I said in my original post you challenged). But there's likely tradition behind it too, going back to the USSR, and there's no really compelling reason to change.

So I don't agree it's "doubtless to do with weather" as you suggest

Edit - actually, I see Estonia and Lithuania both changed to a winter season (with a winter break) immediately on gaining independence, and stayed that way for most of the 90s before changing back. That'd suggest weather isn't "doubtless" the reason for their current setup, and possibly European results were a consideration too. Can't find anything online about the change back though after a very brief google.

This could genuinely be filed under any one or more of the categories for your posts I outlined earlier :D

[pineapple stu]

A solidly-thought out counter-argument there, along your usual levels.

Well done.

[Hitman]

Treaty United: How to build a squad in three days
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/59746860

[sadloserkid]

The journalist spent a good chunk of his childhood/teenage years growing up in Co.Limerick.

[DCSIL]

According to the Daily Star, Treaty United may have been promoted...

https://twitter.com/seanphilipoconn/status/1493549912272908291

[Longfordian]

They've joined the Irish League too. They kept that quiet.

[EalingGreen]

I was recently searching through old foot.ie forums to see what the reaction was to summer football, it was mostly negative. Interestingly nobody discussed the impact it would have on European football at all. I'd love to see an actual comparison of which countries do better in Europe and what impact summer football has on that.
The Stats Zone did a detailed statistical analysis of the effect of a summer football season versus a winter one, here:
https://www.thestatszone.com/archive/summer-leagues-help-or-hinder-teams-europe-13762

In reading it, I would urge the following cautions:
1. It's five years old;
2. It reallly only covers three countries - Den (Winter) and Nor & Swe (Summer);
3. It only covers a relatively small number of clubs over a comparatively short period, meaning that one or two particularly well-run clubs could skew the results - see eg FC Mitjelland.

Therefore it may suffer from having too small a sample size as to be reliable.

All that said, here is a summarised version of their conclusion:
"To conclude, we have looked at Scandinavian teams’ performance in the European cup competitions and split it by summer and winter leagues. From our data we cannot say that there seems to be an advantage to playing in a summer league when it comes to European qualifiers. In fact, Danish sides figure more frequently in the tournaments and on average perform better when they do... ... So in terms of raising the European Cup performance, could it potentially be a wise move for Norwegian and Swedish teams to consider playing similar format to the winter leagues?"

P.S. I'm pretty sure Denmark used to operate a summer season, then switched to a winter season a few years back, though I can't find out exactly when.

EDIT: The Danish League was a summer one from 1958, switching to a winter league for 1991/92.
[Also, Danish professionals playing outside the country were prevented from playing for the (amateur) National Team until 1971, with the domestic league only permitting professionalism from 1979.]

[sbgawa]

I think this is a classic case of a study that isn't needed. (Eg. Rte news some time ago "A study has shown that single parent families are more at risk of poverty"). I'd ask this question is it more likely that a team will win their first round in European competition if they are in preseason and thus not fully match fit and sharp or if they are mid season and fully match fit and game ready?.

[ifk101]

The Stats Zone did a detailed statistical analysis of the effect of a summer football season versus a winter one, here:
https://www.thestatszone.com/archive/summer-leagues-help-or-hinder-teams-europe-13762

In reading it, I would urge the following cautions:
1. It's five years old;
2. It reallly only covers three countries - Den (Winter) and Nor & Swe (Summer);
3. It only covers a relatively small number of clubs over a comparatively short period, meaning that one or two particularly well-run clubs could skew the results - see eg FC Mitjelland.

Therefore it may suffer from having too small a sample size as to be reliable.

All that said, here is a summarised version of their conclusion:
"To conclude, we have looked at Scandinavian teams’ performance in the European cup competitions and split it by summer and winter leagues. From our data we cannot say that there seems to be an advantage to playing in a summer league when it comes to European qualifiers. In fact, Danish sides figure more frequently in the tournaments and on average perform better when they do... ... So in terms of raising the European Cup performance, could it potentially be a wise move for Norwegian and Swedish teams to consider playing similar format to the winter leagues?"

P.S. I'm pretty sure Denmark used to operate a summer season, then switched to a winter season a few years back, though I can't find out exactly when.

EDIT: The Danish League was a summer one from 1958, switching to a winter league for 1991/92.
[Also, Danish professionals playing outside the country were prevented from playing for the (amateur) National Team until 1971, with the domestic league only permitting professionalism from 1979.]

Well ..... is the Danish league a strictly winter league? Add to that, net pay is more "generous" in DK.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, that seems to argue that the Danish league is better than the other two. There's no consideration of any other factors. Seems a fairly silly article really

[EalingGreen]

I think this is a classic case of a study that isn't needed.
Well 'GUFCghost' did ask (#21)

[EalingGreen]

Yeah, that seems to argue that the Danish league is better than the other two. There's no consideration of any other factors. Seems a fairly silly article really
Reminds me of the old WW1 cartoon:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Well%2C_if_you_know_of_a_better_%27ole%2C_go_to_it .jpg?20190407092118

[sbgawa]

Well 'GUFCghost' did ask (#21)

Fair point

[pineapple stu]

Well 'GUFCghost' did ask (#21)
I suppose it doesn't really answer GUFCghost's query though in that it doesn't consider what impact summer football had on the difference.

Probably the best way to compare would be when a league changes season - but even then there's other factors that could influence things too. So the LoI season change coincided with lots of money coming into the league. And Russia changed to a winter season to improve European results, but at a different time to us (their focus was on the late-stage group games and the first knock-out ties)

I think overall it's very hard to make a direct comparison from results alone; there's too many variables