Republic of Ireland V Portugal - Thurs, 11th November 2021 - 2022 World Cup Qualifier

[SkStu]

Well in my post #153, I flagged this one (https://foot.ie/threads/271372-Republic-of-Ireland-V-Portugal-11th-November-2021-2022-World-Cup-Qualifier/page8?p=2094572#post2094572), which I think is definitely getting carried away. A wonderful performance to be proud of?

I think others downplaying Portugal's approach to the game to add merit to our performance also counts.

I still absolutely stand by that post which i should also point out had a level of appreciation from other posters. And was also reinforced by other similar posts over the last 4-5 pages. In fact, i would go so far as to say that my post is more indicative of the general sense around yesterday on here and on broader social media than the feelings of yourself, Boomshakalaka, Bielsa, Paul O'Shea and the like... ( ;) Stu) which appear to be in the minority.

I dont think that post is about getting carried away - it is appreciation for a team that is humming along quite well now and fairly easily holding a team like Portugal at arms length. Lets be proud of that, no? I dont put a lot of stock in comments that suggest Portugal werent all that interested in winning (someone should ask Ronaldo about whether he wanted to win or not) and/or didnt put out a team of sufficient quality to expect to comfortably win (does Santos have such a luxury?).

I see a lot of the losses turning to draws and draws turning to victories over the next year or two. We are clearly on an upward trajectory (please god we beat Lux) in terms of performances and results.

[pineapple stu]

And that's fine. I stand by my criticism of it, and others have agreed with me on how seriously Portugal were taking the match, and whether last night was really just an variation of sorts on the solid defence/no attacking threat we've seen over the Kenny era. An improvement, but balanced with help the Portuguese approach gave us.

But that's discussion for you. I don't think it's negative to not be as positive as you though.

I don't really pay too much attention to what social media say btw; we all know foot.ie posters have higher standards than Twitter :p

[Insidetherock]

I think a lot of the negativity stems from people who've been brought up watching schoolboys and junior football and spending games screaming "get it away ta fuk" as if the ball is something to be frightened of

[third policeman]

II see a lot of the losses turning to draws and draws turning to victories over the next year or two. We are clearly on an upward trajectory (please god we beat Lux) in terms of performances and results.

I was a massive Kenny critic, but to be fair things have started to look a little bit more promising. There is more football being played and in certain areas there is a lot more cohesion and stability. Defensively we look organised and secure, and this is an area where we have a decent pool of talent and experience. Cullen has been a great find, and Hendrick’s renaissance has been an unexpected boost. It’s still way too soon to be an irreversible progression and Luxembourg could end either way. My main worry is that apart from Robinson we really don’t offer a goal threat, and some of his selections seem capricious and retrograde - especially forward selections. We’ll all know a lot more after Sunday.

[Razors left peg]

Just a little counter arguement to the Portugal not trying stuff....

My brother in law, who is Portuguese, has been calling for them to get rid of the manager for about 3 years. He thinks they are far too conservative with him. Spoke to him today and he doesnt think the players werent trying, no body there is talking about that narrative, but they are saying that Santos set up the team not to lose like he does far too often. Of course there were players left out but if Portugal really didnt care last night Ronaldo wouldnt have played 90 minutes.

I keep hearing about the Luxembourg game as the stick to beat Kenny with. Yeah it was crap, but hes not the 1st manager to have a nightmare. Jack Charlton did against San Marino or Lechinstein (cant remember it exactly).

For Kenny the Luxembourg game was when he had a stupidly unsettled squad with Covid pull outs every game. It was also an empty stadium which Im sure the players struggled to raise themselves in. Its not an excuse, but they are mitigating factors. We can see an absolute improvement in the team since the squad has become a bit more settled and there are fans back at games. You can say that its the same for both teams, but when one teams players are used to playing in front of smaller crowds and empty stadium might affect them less.

Sunday will be interesting. I expect the players to have a bit of revenge in mind too so I think we'll fly out of the blocks at them.

There is a lot on nonsense being talked on here which is leading me to come to this forum less and less. The remark I seen yesterday about how we would have won that game under McCarthy was the peak of it. I dont know if some lads are just craving a bit of attention or what, but theres always Twitter if thats what you are looking for.

I think most reasonable fans who were very anti Kenny will admit that theres a massive amount progress in the last year with a young team. 5 of the starters last night were in their 1st qualifying campaign I believe

[sadloserkid]

I keep hearing about the Luxembourg game as the stick to beat Kenny with. Yeah it was crap, but hes not the 1st manager to have a nightmare. Jack Charlton did against San Marino or Lechinstein (cant remember it exactly).

It was Liechtenstein, we drew 0-0 and, given that Charlton was gone at the end of that campaign, I'm not sure that it adds much to your overall point.

[Razors left peg]

It was Liechtenstein, we drew 0-0 and, given that Charlton was gone at the end of that campaign, I'm not sure that it adds much to your overall point.

I was just making the point that it can happen even with a better team

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

It was Liechtenstein, we drew 0-0 and, given that Charlton was gone at the end of that campaign, I'm not sure that it adds much to your overall point.

I think Staunton should have remained as manager, if you ignore the 5-2 against Cyprus and all the other poor results and performances, he was doing a great job. :D

[Razors left peg]

I think Staunton should have remained as manager, if you ignore the 5-2 against Cyprus and all the other poor results and performances, he was doing a great job. :D

Your point would be fine if Stauntons teams were improving with every game!

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Your point would be fine if Stauntons teams were improving with every game!

You completely missed the point.

[pineapple stu]

I think the Liechtenstein game was a freak as well - 40 shots and no goals - whereas we got what we deserved against Luxembourg. That's a big difference.

Really until last month Kenny deserved the criticism he was getting, while I think most acknowledged how bad the squad was. The performance in Portugal was decent (but if they'd scored the penalty it was a different game), but then at home v Serbia and Azerbaijan was poor both times and we were blessed to get two draws.

Last month then was solid stuff against two awful sides who pretty much helped us score. And then yesterday we're still debating but it certainly wasn't bad.

So it's an improvement, and if we can win on Sunday against a Luxembourg side who'll be well up for the game themselves, then all the better.

Btw, don't let the BOOMSHAKALAKAs win! We need more sensible posters here, not less :)

[Razors left peg]

You completely missed the point.

No buddy I didnt.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

No buddy I didnt.

If you take away the 5-1 against Denmark and a few other results, Martin O'Neill should have been kept on as manager. ;)

[Razors left peg]

I think the Liechtenstein game was a freak as well - 40 shots and no goals - whereas we got what we deserved against Luxembourg. That's a big difference.

Really until last month Kenny deserved the criticism he was getting, while I think most acknowledged how bad the squad was. The performance in Portugal was decent (but if they'd scored the penalty it was a different game), but then at home v Serbia and Azerbaijan was poor both times and we were blessed to get two draws.

Last month then was solid stuff against two awful sides who pretty much helped us score. And then yesterday we're still debating but it certainly wasn't bad.

So it's an improvement, and if we can win on Sunday against a Luxembourg side who'll be well up for the game themselves, then all the better.

Btw, don't let the BOOMSHAKALAKAs win! We need more sensible posters here, not less :)

Maybe the Liechenstein game wasnt the greatest example I could have used but stupid results happen and I think the Luxembourg game has some mitigating factors like I said.

Yeah it could have been different if Portugal had scored their pen, but the flip side is that it could have been different if we had taken our chances or got a pen that should have been given.

We were at at all time low at the beginning of this campaign, but it had being coming for years. In the latter days of O'Neill and under McCarthy we barely every registered a shot on goal. We would have 30% possession at home to the likes of Georgia with an ageing squad. Now for the 1st time in a long time there is a sense of optimism around the squad. We were supposed to believe from the Jason McAteers of the world that the players wouldnt play for Kenny because they didnt know him. Thats all put to bed now. You can see the players are busting a gut for him and are trying to implement how he wants us to play, and we have such a young squad now too.

I just think the overhaul he is doing takes time and there are clear and obvious signs that its starting to pay dividends. We have no right to beat anyone, the minnows of 20 years ago are not as bad as they were and we have to accept we are not as good as we were. Could you imagine us having the captain of one of the biggest clubs in the world bossing our midfield now. We used to take that sort of thing for granted. Robbie Keane used to take abuse cos supposedly only scored against weaker teams. We'd kill to have someone like Robbie now. If you listened to Brady last night you would think we have a team of Champions League winners.

[Razors left peg]

If you take away the 5-1 against Denmark and a few other results, Martin O'Neill should have been kept on as manager. ;)

Jeez you're great craic.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Jeez you're great craic.

You have to admit you and others defense of Kenny is ridiculous. He got us knocked out of the euros, had a miserable nations league and is about to complete one of the worst qualifying campaigns we've ever had. Yet people like you are heavily criticising previous managers who actually qualified us for tournaments and treating Kenny like he's the Irish Guardiola! It would be funny only this madness is driving us back years.

[geysir]

No, there's Pineapple Stu saying that maybe we shouldn't get carried away by a 0-0 draw against a team playing within itself and resting half their starting 11, against whom we looked like not scoring if the game continued until next Tuesday. For that, he seems to have been cast in the role of Peig.

Luxembourg is key. Win there and we finish third, and if we could be accused for making hard work of it at least the trajectory is good after a bad start. Lose or draw, and the debate about whether we keep Kenny on or not has teeth.
Not only missing the import of what went on in that game last night by a country mile, but the goalposts have been moved, a workmanlike deserved draw against Portugal at home is not good enough to appraise the merits of Kenny, it's reduced due the opposition not at their peak, therefore now Luxembourg is the key :rolleyes:
What if it's a regular away game performance to a decent in form side (such as Luxembourg are now) in a qualification campaign, the type of game for decades that we have struggled to win or even draw, oft times losing, the type of game from Giles onward where we have performed ignobly, or what if it's akin to the performance when a much superior Ireland team under Charlton struggled both home and away to an inferior Luxembourg? But now Kenny is supposed to be judged on this key game?
There's bull and there's total bull. And Fwiw I have have little respect for the that type of Irish boorishness that not only does not understand the Peig life experience but who condescend to sneer at her and her life experience.

[pineapple stu]

Christ geysir - you've a fierce habit of thinking an arrogant verbose posting style somehow accentuates your point, do you know that?

Luxembourg are not a decent side and are not in good form. Their only wins this year have been home and away against Azerbaijan (who are wojus) and in Lansdowne. A draw against Qatar and Azerbaijan, and eight defeats, and that's their past 12 months.

To say it's the sort of game that "for decades we have struggled to win or even draw, oft times losing" is nonsense. They're around 100th in the world. We've had some of those teams make it difficult for us over the years - they're usually pro footballers after all - but we were rarely ever in danger of losing to them, and indeed rarely give up results to them. When we do, they're really bad, one-off, and usually away from home. Draws in Georgia and Liechtenstein top the list. Mick's home draw against Iceland. Stan in Cyprus. All stronger teams than Luxembourg though. Stuff from the Giles era is of no relevance now really.

It's entirely right to criticise that result as one of our worst ever (and it was followed up shortly after by an equally abject display against Azerbaijan), and there is validity in saying that while a draw against a defensive/disinterested Portugal team whose keeper barely broke a sweat is still a decent result, it is of more interest to see if we can actually score and beat a weak team who at least have a reason to be up for this clash.

[TonyD]

You have to admit you and others defense of Kenny is ridiculous. He got us knocked out of the euros, had a miserable nations league and is about to complete one of the worst qualifying campaigns we've ever had. Yet people like you are heavily criticising previous managers who actually qualified us for tournaments and treating Kenny like he's the Irish Guardiola! It would be funny only this madness is driving us back years.

Horse manure. Not one of Kenny defenders has said he’s Guardiola, or anything like it. The reality is he took over a squad that needed overhauling, that lacked the quality of previous years and where the young players he is introducing need time, as does he. Things are definitely improving, only the wilfully obstinate won’t admit that.

[TonyD]

Maybe the Liechenstein game wasnt the greatest example I could have used but stupid results happen and I think the Luxembourg game has some mitigating factors like I said.

Yeah it could have been different if Portugal had scored their pen, but the flip side is that it could have been different if we had taken our chances or got a pen that should have been given.

We were at at all time low at the beginning of this campaign, but it had being coming for years. In the latter days of O'Neill and under McCarthy we barely every registered a shot on goal. We would have 30% possession at home to the likes of Georgia with an ageing squad. Now for the 1st time in a long time there is a sense of optimism around the squad. We were supposed to believe from the Jason McAteers of the world that the players wouldnt play for Kenny because they didnt know him. Thats all put to bed now. You can see the players are busting a gut for him and are trying to implement how he wants us to play, and we have such a young squad now too.

I just think the overhaul he is doing takes time and there are clear and obvious signs that its starting to pay dividends. We have no right to beat anyone, the minnows of 20 years ago are not as bad as they were and we have to accept we are not as good as we were. Could you imagine us having the captain of one of the biggest clubs in the world bossing our midfield now. We used to take that sort of thing for granted. Robbie Keane used to take abuse cos supposedly only scored against weaker teams. We'd kill to have someone like Robbie now. If you listened to Brady last night you would think we have a team of Champions League winners.

Ah here, stop talking sense will ya! It might catch on !

[samhaydenjr]

Not only missing the import of what went on in that game last night by a country mile, but the goalposts have been moved, a workmanlike deserved draw against Portugal at home is not good enough to appraise the merits of Kenny, it's reduced due the opposition not at their peak, therefore now Luxembourg is the key :rolleyes:
What if it's a regular away game performance to a decent in form side (such as Luxembourg are now) in a qualification campaign, the type of game for decades that we have struggled to win or even draw, oft times losing, the type of game from Giles onward where we have performed ignobly, or what if it's akin to the performance when a much superior Ireland team under Charlton struggled both home and away to an inferior Luxembourg? But now Kenny is supposed to be judged on this key game?
There's bull and there's total bull. And Fwiw I have have little respect for the that type of Irish boorishness that not only does not understand the Peig life experience but who condescend to sneer at her and her life experience.

Yes, I think it is fair to use the Luxembourg game to make a final judgement on Kenny for two reasons:
- First, he needs to exorcise the ghost of the home defeat. People make much of the Cyprus defeat for Stan, but had Ireland comfortably beaten Cyprus at home, then the 5-2 have looked like an aberration in his second competitive game and the overall picture would have looked better, particularly had we not given up late goals in Wales and/or Slovakia, which were still decent results. Kenny needs to do what Staunton failed to do in his return fixture.
- Second, he's had enough time to bed in - we need to be confident that we will go into the Euro 24 qualifiers that we will be able to comfortably handle the mediocre and poor teams, at the very least and anything other than a decent win on Sunday would put a big question mark over that

[Snapshot]

Not only missing the import of what went on in that game last night by a country mile, but the goalposts have been moved, a workmanlike deserved draw against Portugal at home is not good enough to appraise the merits of Kenny, it's reduced due the opposition not at their peak, therefore now Luxembourg is the key :rolleyes:
What if it's a regular away game performance to a decent in form side (such as Luxembourg are now) in a qualification campaign, the type of game for decades that we have struggled to win or even draw, oft times losing, the type of game from Giles onward where we have performed ignobly, or what if it's akin to the performance when a much superior Ireland team under Charlton struggled both home and away to an inferior Luxembourg? But now Kenny is supposed to be judged on this key game?
There's bull and there's total bull. And Fwiw I have have little respect for the that type of Irish boorishness that not only does not understand the Peig life experience but who condescend to sneer at her and her life experience.
I disagree on Kenny, but your Peig reference is a lovely touch. Fág Peig ina haonar. Ni fheicfimid a leithéid arís.

[texidub]

Yes, fair enough. But Peig never played at a decent level (mostly due to taking up smoking pipe tobacco at a young age, IMO) and was never picked for Ireland, despite being the Wes Hoolahan of her day, so it's all a bit moot.

Seemed to be agreement here before this window started that the Lux game was the big one. I am sure the team felt the same way. Just mentioning because all the talk is about Portugals' minds being elsewhere with no mention being made of the fact that Ireland's focus was also on the next game to some extent. Portugese team comments after the game spoke about the Irish aggression and how they were basically bullied off the ball. Great to hear. We may end up with a team that combines intelligent play with aggression, something we haven't had for decades.

I hope they come out looking for blood tomorrow night.

[pineapple stu]

Yes, I think it is fair to use the Luxembourg game to make a final judgement on Kenny for two reasons:
I think to expand on your post a little bit, we could maybe have a look at where Kenny's Ireland is at after 19 games.

1 - There's definitely some recent improvement. Let's put that out front and centre.
2 - Defending is our strength. 17 goals conceded in those 19 games. 7 clean sheets. We've not conceded more than once in any home game. That's all quite decent.
3 - Against decent attacking teams, we can be torn apart. Serbia (twice) and England showed that. We were blessed in that home game against Serbia (great keeper performance, poor Serbian finishing, a farcical own goal) and even 3-2 in Belgrade flattered us. That's a slight concern - but they'll tear other teams apart too of course.
4 - Portugal aren't a decent attacking team. We've seen that in the twice we've played them. They should be with the players they have, but they're not. Razor's Left Peg has given a good insider view of why that might be the case and it tallies in with what's been said before, both here and on RTÉ commentary. It's why I'm happy to urge caution on going over the top with the result on Thursday. It was, to channel Grumpy Dunphy, good but not great Bill.
5 - Against teams of our level - Bulgaria, Wales, Finland, Hungary, Slovakia - we are singularly inept in front of goal. Eight games, one goal. Our qualifying group had no teams of our own level - Serbia are a good second seed, and Luxembourg are a poor fourth seed - so the next Nations League campaign will be a very good marker of progress. Needless to say, we won't get anywhere scoring one goal in eight games against sides of our strength.
6 - Against poor teams - Qatar, Luxembourg, Azerbaijan - we showed a seriously worrying inability to take the game to them. The defeat to Luxembourg and the draws v Qatar and Azerbaijan were some of the most inept performances I've ever seen from an Ireland team. We were limp, lifeless and unimaginative - not once, but three times - and deserved what we got. Again, it comes back to the toothless attack, which isn't entirely Kenny's fault of course. Last month was a definite improvement in that regard of course. So I think a good performance and a win is needed tomorrow to show improvement.
7 - Against minnows...well, the first hour against Andorra was probably the worst we've played under Kenny, which is saying a lot. But then they got tired and shipped four, which will happen, but in a way that game was an extension of the same pattern.

There's no point taking a draw off a disinterested Portugal side if we then can't beat the teams around us or the teams below us. And the latter is fundamental if we're to, say, stay in the second tier of the Nations League or mount a qualification bid for the next Euros.

Our recovery is showing, and I think he's earned the right to see out his contract at least. But it's still fragile. A poor performance tomorrow and questions will rightly be asked. Five points from four games against Luxembourg and Azerbaijan for example - what does that say about Kenny's ability to lead us to Euro 2024?

For all that, I'm more confident about tomorrow's game than I've been in a while.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Horse manure. Not one of Kenny defenders has said he’s Guardiola, or anything like it. The reality is he took over a squad that needed overhauling, that lacked the quality of previous years and where the young players he is introducing need time, as does he. Things are definitely improving, only the wilfully obstinate won’t admit that.

Which part of this are you disagreeing with?

"He got us knocked out of the euros, had a miserable nations league and is about to complete one of the worst qualifying campaigns we've ever had."

He took over a squad who came very close to qualifying automatically from a group with Denmark and Switzerland. The Kenny fanatics always try to paint us as minnows prior to him taking over, the truth is he dragged us down to that level. Instead of consistently battling it out with the top 2, Kenny has us battling it out with the bottom 2.

[pineapple stu]

One little side-note from the Portugal game actually - it's the first time since Euro 72 that we've finished a qualification campaign without a home win.

1970, 1962, 1938 and 1934 are the only other times we've managed that feat, and in those pre-war tournaments we only played one home game.

[mypost]

Well, yeah, that’s the kind of thing I’m talking about with people giving no credit for improvement at all. No doubt if we win in Luxembourg it will be “its only Luxembourg ffs”.

First, it was "only" Andorra. Second, it was "only" Azerbaijan. Third, it was "only" Qatar. Now, it's only a Portugal "B" Team. Then it will be "only" Luxembourg.

Now, it's "only" 3 straight clean sheets and 8 positive results in 9 games. It may not carry the same weight as "3 wins in 18", but the signs are there that progress in results is finally happening now that most of the new players have finally found their feet, and offers optimism for the next campaign that we can at least challenge for 3rd, with Kenny in charge. The sacrifice has been this campaign, but most fans knew beforehand that a group with Portugal in it meant it had to be written off as a player development campaign.


...as they were when he was on the coaching ticket with Trap.
Just extended your last sentence there! That's what I started thinking while watching Brady post match - is he unwilling to praise the way Kenny and his staff have encouraged the team to play, out of fear of criticism being raised about why we played like we did under Trap (with players playing at a higher level).
He was talking nonsense about waiting to see how the nations league goes, that's completely not the time to change manager.

He made up his mind about Kenny long ago. And like the others who agree with him, he's waiting in the long grass until the next crisis to remind us all why he thinks the way he does. The Luxembourg game is a meaningless fixture that has to be fulfilled to put this miserable campaign to bed, it's not a cup final and shouldn't be treated as one. After 18 games in charge, we should have seen enough evidence by now to decide whether Kenny should stay on or not. If we win great, if we don't so what. Our fate was decided before the clocks went forward.


How many games did it take John Aldridge before he finally scored for Ireland (eventually being handed a penalty against the mighty Malta).. and he was a top scorer at Liverpool at the time

Idah is 20, learning his trade. Are we going to give young players a chance to grow and develop at all anymore.

Give players time.. patience

The whole campaign is about giving players time. Sadly Idah is hopelessly out of his depth. As regards Aldridge, his first goal for us was a 4 yard tap in v Tunisia at the same ground, but at least he had already made it at club level, Idah doesn't even have that luxury.


It isn't nonsense though.

Whether we drew with them 0-0 or they beat us 10-0 made no difference to them, so they went with the approach of resting players on yellow cards and playing quite conservatively and expending relatively little effort. In the case of Bruno Fernandes, he might as well not have even been on the pitch.

And for what, 80 minutes, it worked out fine for them. Only after Pepe's red card did we really put them under sustained pressure, and even then, that didn't lead to any real chances.

Now, even taking all that into account, we can still be positive about the performance and result, because even a weakened Portugal side trying to see out a game are a cut above us so we did well and can celebrate a solid team performance with some good individual showings, but it makes no sense to ignore how Portugal approached this game.

Unbelievable. Here we are, third clean sheet in 3 games, and it's all the opposition's fault.

Anyone who has seen Portugal over the last several years, will know that they never hammer anyone of note, and all they ever do is just about enough to win games and progress. You look at this group and it's no different. Just about enough to get a point in Serbia and Dublin, just about enough in Faro, just about enough against Azerbaijan in Turin, and just about enough to put them in pole position to qualify from this group, at the very last minute. The bare minimum necessary. Now you can afford to do that with Ronaldo in your team, until you face better opposition who have the players and the firepower to render the tactic useless.

The big long whinge about Kenny throughout this campaign is about results. Now we have two big results at home against the top two seeds in the group, and the whinging continues. No we didn't win them, but we usually don't. Our last home win in a qualifier was the best part of 3 years ago. And even that, against one of the worst teams on earth at any level, was a struggle.

[pineapple stu]

No-one is saying the 0-0 draw was all the opposition's fault. We are saying Portugal's approach to the game is a factor to be considered in analysing the match performance.

Portugal scored 11 goals in their last three qualifiers (well, two qualifiers and a pseudo one). That's not doing "just enough" to win, though it's true they don't do it often enough. They may never hammer anyone of note, but most teams don't. And we're not anyone of note any more. But it's another indication that maybe changing half their team so they could really focus on Serbia did help us.

There's very little whinging about the last three performances - what there is is an attempt to put things in perspective and analyse them. Because that's what happens on a football forum.

And the Luxembourg game does matter, because right now Kenny has had 16 mostly crap performances and 3 half decent ones. Another bad performance tomorrow and it's fair to ask if we just had a random purple/lucky patch

After all that, I think that just leaves your Adam Idah view that I actually agree on. Which is more common ground than most have found with your posts over the years I think!

[mypost]

When you mathematically can't qualify, results don't matter, you're an also ran. After that, you can make whatever you want of results. And you've decided that the last 3 results were a purple patch, a sunny spell in the eye of a storm. I see it as us starting to go somewhere, giving us a platform to build on.

Suggesting that we only got those results because of the quality of the opposition is a disgrace. We're not responsible for the team selection or the perceived lack of quality of the opposition. If they're not good enough or don't take the game seriously on the day, that's not our problem to worry about. We can only face what is put in front of us, and that's what we did. How Portugal approach games is a high risk strategy that will work for a while, but is unsustainable if they're serious about winning major trophies on a regular basis.

He hasn't had 16 mostly crap performances. He's had 18 games for the team to transition from a hoofball pub side with over the hill players, to a side capable of winning games by passing a football from one teammate to another properly. No we're not able to compete at the top table of the game now, but we haven't for most of the past 20 years before he took charge either. It's a long haul process that can't, and hasn't been done in just one qualifying campaign.

[third policeman]

[QUOTE= He hasn't had 16 mostly crap performances. He's had 18 games for the team to transition from a hoofball pub side with over the hill players, to a side capable of winning games by passing a football from one teammate to another properly. No we're not able to compete at the top table of the game now, but we haven't for most of the past 20 years before he took charge either. It's a long haul process that can't, and hasn't been done in just one qualifying campaign.[/QUOTE]

As a matter of interest who are the over the hill players? Nearly all the players used by McCarthy are still in the squad.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

As a matter of interest who are the over the hill players? Nearly all the players used by McCarthy are still in the squad.

:D That doesn't fit the narrative. We were aging no hopers who were never getting close to qualifying until Pep Kenny came on board.

[third policeman]

I’m willing to be convinced by Kenny on the basis of what has been an improvement, but I don’t buy into the historical revisionism that his supporters indulge in. Yeah we are passing the ball more than we did, and there’s been a bit more fluency and organisation in the last few games, but it still seems a bit fragile. The most worrying thing for me is his faith in players who have never demonstrated (yet, in some cases), that they can play consistently at this level. Maybe Idah and Parrott will come good, but Horgan, Keane, Collins are never going to be good enough. We’re not blessed with striking talent, but Hogan is playing regularly at a higher level and scoring goals.

[pineapple stu]

you've decided that the last 3 results were a purple patch, a sunny spell in the eye of a storm.
Reading isn't your strong point, is it? I've said that it's fair to wonder if the last three games were a purple patch. That's not the same as declaring them so. The Luxembourg game will tell us more. If we lose or draw it, then yeah, it would start to look more like the eye of a storm, wouldn't it?


Suggesting that we only got those results because of the quality of the opposition is a disgrace. We're not responsible for the team selection or the perceived lack of quality of the opposition.
Another daft comment. Of course we can only beat what's out there - but if what's out there is throwing the ball into the back of the net for us (Azerbaijan) or a half-strength team focused on a different match altogether (Portugal) then that absolutely becomes a factor to be considered when appraising whether we're improving. So I'm not saying we only got those results because of the opposition, but I am saying it has to be taken into account when considering the Portugal performance that they appeared half interested and dropped half their team. That's a huge difference.


He hasn't had 16 mostly crap performances. He's had 18 games for the team to transition from a hoofball pub side with over the hill players
He did have 16 mostly crap performances. Seven games without scoring a goal - our longest run ever. For most of that, we didn't even look like scoring a goal. Defeat at home to Luxembourg, our worst ever competitive defeat. Rescuing a draw against Azerbaijan at home with a late equaliser after another insipid performance - an awful result which ranks well below previous upsets such as draws against Georgia, Cyprus, Lithuania, Albania and Iceland. Being completely outplayed by the only decent attacking sides we met. What more do you want?

And you can't just brush all of that off with a comment about transition. These were guys who by and large didn't play at club level the desperate hoofball stuff Ireland played, so straight off they're halfway there at least. Yes, there were issues around covid and the excessive team changes that caused, and around bringing players through (often when they weren't there), and around the lack of crowds which didn't help us. But it was still 16 games and a year of appalling form, when we weren't even surprised when we were 1-0 down in Andorra after almost an hour. That's too long of a transition period to be honest.

You say we're not able to compete at the top of the table - we don't even know if we can compete at the middle of the table. The Nations League would say we can't. Tomorrow we face a side lower than the middle of the table again, which is why failure to win with a good performance tomorrow would be a big worry.

Again, I think we will win, but it is still entirely reasonable to say that there's a lot riding on this game.

[Bielsa´s irish]

For me Kenny is a bluffer. Started an own religion toó! I understand why people would keep him based on faith. I wouldnt. Refs were awful and al the calls were against the green since Belgrado. But he is the main responsible

[EAFC_rdfl]

I disagree on Kenny, but your Peig reference is a lovely touch. Fág Peig ina haonar. Ni fheicfimid a leithéid arís.

Fág doesn't sound right in that context, maybe Lig Peig ina haonar works!

[mypost]

The Luxembourg game will tell us more. If we lose or draw it, then yeah, it would start to look more like the eye of a storm, wouldn't it?

Another daft comment. Of course we can only beat what's out there - but if what's out there is throwing the ball into the back of the net for us (Azerbaijan) or a half-strength team focused on a different match altogether (Portugal) then that absolutely becomes a factor to be considered when appraising whether we're improving. So I'm not saying we only got those results because of the opposition, but I am saying it has to be taken into account when considering the Portugal performance that they appeared half interested and dropped half their team. That's a huge difference.

Again, I think we will win, but it is still entirely reasonable to say that there's a lot riding on this game.

As we can't qualify for the WC, no there isn't. Knowing how awkward Serbia and Portugal found it there, I don't expect to win, and it's not armageddon if not. We rarely win any games as it is.

Kenny was appointed to change how we play, and bring through new players to do so. That has been, and continues to be done. If the price of that is losing a home game v Luxembourg or even away to Luxembourg, that is the price that has to be paid. It's not the worst home result in our history, its not like we're losing 1-6 to Germany and 1-5 to Denmark at home these days. Now we're drawing 0-0 at home to Portugal and 1-1 at home to Serbia and you dismiss it because it wasn't the expected team. That's their business. We beat Andorra 4-1, and we should be happy that we won a game for a change. No the story is, that the skiers were ahead for a few of the 90 minutes.

Portugal's approach to the game is a matter for Portugal to worry about, they were the team with qualification on the line and everything to lose, which they should have in injury time. If they end up stuck in the playoffs or out of the World Cup, then they have questions to answer.

We've lost once in the last 9 games, in injury time. We're 5 games unbeaten, the newbies are finding their feet, the passing and possession stats are way up compared to what has gone before, Lansdowne is sold out again. That's more than enough reasons for Kenny to stay in charge.

[Snapshot]

Reading isn't your strong point, is it? I've said that it's fair to wonder if the last three games were a purple patch. That's not the same as declaring them so. The Luxembourg game will tell us more. If we lose or draw it, then yeah, it would start to look more like the eye of a storm, wouldn't it?


Another daft comment. Of course we can only beat what's out there - but if what's out there is throwing the ball into the back of the net for us (Azerbaijan) or a half-strength team focused on a different match altogether (Portugal) then that absolutely becomes a factor to be considered when appraising whether we're improving. So I'm not saying we only got those results because of the opposition, but I am saying it has to be taken into account when considering the Portugal performance that they appeared half interested and dropped half their team. That's a huge difference.


He did have 16 mostly crap performances. Seven games without scoring a goal - our longest run ever. For most of that, we didn't even look like scoring a goal. Defeat at home to Luxembourg, our worst ever competitive defeat. Rescuing a draw against Azerbaijan at home with a late equaliser after another insipid performance - an awful result which ranks well below previous upsets such as draws against Georgia, Cyprus, Lithuania, Albania and Iceland. Being completely outplayed by the only decent attacking sides we met. What more do you want?

And you can't just brush all of that off with a comment about transition. These were guys who by and large didn't play at club level the desperate hoofball stuff Ireland played, so straight off they're halfway there at least. Yes, there were issues around covid and the excessive team changes that caused, and around bringing players through (often when they weren't there), and around the lack of crowds which didn't help us. But it was still 16 games and a year of appalling form, when we weren't even surprised when we were 1-0 down in Andorra after almost an hour. That's too long of a transition period to be honest.

You say we're not able to compete at the top of the table - we don't even know if we can compete at the middle of the table. The Nations League would say we can't. Tomorrow we face a side lower than the middle of the table again, which is why failure to win with a good performance tomorrow would be a big worry.

Again, I think we will win, but it is still entirely reasonable to say that there's a lot riding on this game.

Brilliant common-sense summary. Well done.

[Snapshot]

Fág doesn't sound right in that context, maybe Lig Peig ina haonar works!
Absolutely, thanks. I try hard.

[liamoo11]

As we can't qualify for the WC, no there isn't. Knowing how awkward Serbia and Portugal found it there, I don't expect to win, and it's not armageddon if not. We rarely win any games as it is.

Kenny was appointed to change how we play, and bring through new players to do so. That has been, and continues to be done. If the price of that is losing a home game v Luxembourg or even away to Luxembourg, that is the price that has to be paid. It's not the worst home result in our history, its not like we're losing 1-6 to Germany and 1-5 to Denmark at home these days. Now we're drawing 0-0 at home to Portugal and 1-1 at home to Serbia and you dismiss it because it wasn't the expected team. That's their business. We beat Andorra 4-1, and we should be happy that we won a game for a change. No the story is, that the skiers were ahead for a few of the 90 minutes.

Portugal's approach to the game is a matter for Portugal to worry about, they were the team with qualification on the line and everything to lose, which they should have in injury time. If they end up stuck in the playoffs or out of the World Cup, then they have questions to answer.

We've lost once in the last 9 games, in injury time. We're 5 games unbeaten, the newbies are finding their feet, the passing and possession stats are way up compared to what has gone before, Lansdowne is sold out again. That's more than enough reasons for Kenny to stay in charge.

All of that is reasonable but when does it become important for Kenny to start winning games and to be at least in contention to qualify cone the last round or 2 of qualifying games?

By the time we start our next nations league group he will have over 20 games as manager will there be an expectation for that group that we should be challenging and in contention to top it up to the last round of games?

Or are we saying that it's the euro qualification group that expectations kick in and until then everything gets a free pass? And what is the expectation for the next euros group?

If we don't qualify for the euros but continue to play football that people find attractive would Kenny be under pressure then or would he have another contract extension to take us through the following World Cup group?

By the time the next euro s would be over our current up and coming promising generation of players who were impressive through the age groups from 16s 17s and 19s up to 21s with Kenny and have transitioned into the senior picture such as connolly, obafemi, parrott,ebosele, Knight, Collins kelleher, bazunu, omobamidele,molumby,ronan, idah etc will be mid 20s and likely getting close to their prime. Its unlikely that the current 21s and 19s squads will provide as many players to the senior set up but hopefully a few special ones will come through..

is Kenny destined to be afforded the opportunity to qualify for the next World Cup with these players regardless of results up to then ? Would that World Cup be the cut off or if we were competitive and missed out through a playoff would he still be around for the following euros?

[pineapple stu]

As we can't qualify for the WC, no there isn't.
Typical mypost stuff - ignore the points made as to why the Luxembourg game is important, and just repeat the same irrelevancy (we can't qualify for the World Cup).


If the price of that is losing a home game v Luxembourg or even away to Luxembourg, that is the price that has to be paid. It's not the worst home result in our history, its not like we're losing 1-6 to Germany and 1-5 to Denmark at home these days. Now we're drawing 0-0 at home to Portugal and 1-1 at home to Serbia and you dismiss it because it wasn't the expected team. That's their business. We beat Andorra 4-1, and we should be happy that we won a game for a change. No the story is, that the skiers were ahead for a few of the 90 minutes.
Again wantonly distorting what I said, and throwing in a few absurdities for good measure. To tick them off quickly -

> I don't think any change in style is worth losing home and away to Luxembourg
> Losing 1-0 at home to Luxembourg in a performance where we had what - one shot on target? - absolutely is worse than losing 5-1 against Denmark (when we had to chase the game) or 6-1 at home to Germany (which spelled the beginning of the end for Trap)
> I've already said I've not dismissed the Portugal draw - I've tried to put it in context. I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this given you've ignored me on that already.
> The Andorra story isn't that they were ahead for 7 minutes. It's that after 55 minutes, they were deservedly ahead. That is, for 55 minutes we had played so abjectly against a team of part-timers that we had barely mustered a chance of note and were losing. That's much different than, say, conceding an early goal and quickly equalising (like 2001) or pummeling them and being hit on the break.

[Olé Olé]

As a matter of interest who are the over the hill players? Nearly all the players used by McCarthy are still in the squad.
Nearly all? That's some going. Is Kenny allowed to pick an extended panel so that he include "nearly all" of Mick's squad and all of the players he has given debuts to?

[third policeman]

[QUOTE=mypost;209496 Kenny was appointed to change how we play, and bring through new players to do so..[/QUOTE]

How many of the players that he has brought in have been integral to the new style of play. Cullen maybe? As I have said, before, I’m willing to give him a chance, but this Messianic thing, doesn’t square with the facts. He’s brought in young players, some of whom look promising and some are clearly not ready for this level.

[Olé Olé]

How many of the players that he has brought in have been integral to the new style of play. Cullen maybe? As I have said, before, I’m willing to give him a chance, but this Messianic thing, doesn’t square with the facts. He’s brought in young players, some of whom look promising and some are clearly not ready for this level.
Bazunu is as important as anybody. Doherty is featuring more frequently. Callum Robinson has become essential. Omobamidele was very good against Serbia as the third centre half, comfortable in defence and pushing up a little. That is 5.

[mark12345]

As we can't qualify for the WC, no there isn't. Knowing how awkward Serbia and Portugal found it there, I don't expect to win, and it's not armageddon if not. We rarely win any games as it is.

Kenny was appointed to change how we play, and bring through new players to do so. That has been, and continues to be done. If the price of that is losing a home game v Luxembourg or even away to Luxembourg, that is the price that has to be paid. It's not the worst home result in our history, its not like we're losing 1-6 to Germany and 1-5 to Denmark at home these days. Now we're drawing 0-0 at home to Portugal and 1-1 at home to Serbia and you dismiss it because it wasn't the expected team. That's their business. We beat Andorra 4-1, and we should be happy that we won a game for a change. No the story is, that the skiers were ahead for a few of the 90 minutes.

Portugal's approach to the game is a matter for Portugal to worry about, they were the team with qualification on the line and everything to lose, which they should have in injury time. If they end up stuck in the playoffs or out of the World Cup, then they have questions to answer.

We've lost once in the last 9 games, in injury time. We're 5 games unbeaten, the newbies are finding their feet, the passing and possession stats are way up compared to what has gone before, Lansdowne is sold out again. That's more than enough reasons for Kenny to stay in charge.

AND THE WINNER IS!! Truth is you both make extremely compelling points and both of your viewpoints more than hold up to scrutiny. All of which is to say that tonight's game is as big a crossroads game for an Irish manager as there ever has been.

[Stuttgart88]

Typical mypost stuff - ignore the points made as to why the Luxembourg game is important, and just repeat the same irrelevancy (we can't qualify for the World Cup).


Again wantonly distorting what I said, and throwing in a few absurdities for good measure. To tick them off quickly -

> I don't think any change in style is worth losing home and away to Luxembourg
> Losing 1-0 at home to Luxembourg in a performance where we had what - one shot on target? - absolutely is worse than losing 5-1 against Denmark (when we had to chase the game) or 6-1 at home to Germany (which spelled the beginning of the end for Trap)
> I've already said I've not dismissed the Portugal draw - I've tried to put it in context. I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this given you've ignored me on that already.
> The Andorra story isn't that they were ahead for 7 minutes. It's that after 55 minutes, they were deservedly ahead. That is, for 55 minutes we had played so abjectly against a team of part-timers that we had barely mustered a chance of note and were losing. That's much different than, say, conceding an early goal and quickly equalising (like 2001) or pummeling them and being hit on the break.I'd say in the long term a change in style/outlook/philosophy is worth some short term pain. Lux at home was no worse than, say, Gibraltar under Mick, home and away. Abject rubbish on both occasions, the only difference being that in Gibraltar Randolph saved our bacon at a critical moment in the game. I'd allow Mick the plastic pitch and strong wind as a factor away, but home was just deplorable. Lux at home was in a soulless empty stadium as were the NL games. That cuts any manager some slack in my book - no home advantage. An opportunistic pot shot on 88 minutes went in, Denmark systematically dismantled us. I think you're being overly critical of some of the earlier Kenny performances. Helsinki and Cardiff were both pretty decent, a key moment in each game being the difference. Objectively I'd say they were better performances than any in our earlier NL campaign.

Bazunu, Robinson, Cullen, Doherty, Duffy, Coleman, Hendrick and others are playing great stuff and Hendrick is playing his best in 5 years. Duffy is a man possessed.

I've been a fan of yours personally since we both joined this forum donkeys' years ago but man, your whingeing over pretty much everything from the context of the Portugal game (no doubt beating the All Blacks was facile yesterday) to a 19 year old tier 3 goalkeeper capturing the hearts of the nation is making me seriously considering blocking/ignoring you. You'd be the first. There have been WUMs galore here down the years but they intend to wind people up. You're just being wilfully petty and one-eyed. Really tiresome.

[pineapple stu]

Ah come on Stutts. Is that how you react to a view different to yours?

Yes, Lansdowne was empty for the Luxembourg game, and yes we're in transition. But a read back on the match thread will show that most posters were of the view that Kenny should resign/be sacked after it not just for that performance, but for his career to date. This post from NeverFeltBetter (https://foot.ie/threads/265458-Republic-of-Ireland-V-Luxembourg-Saturday-27th-March-2021-World-Cup-Qualifier?p=2071089&viewfull=1#post2071089) expresses it best -


The issue is that in 11 games things aren't really improving at all. Yes COVID, yes injuries, but the team looks as incapable offensively as they did when Kenny started. Some fighting defeats are as good as it has gotten.

Let's not get revisionist about it all now that we've gotten a couple of good results.

Ditto the Bazunu stuff - there can be no harm in some balance in analysing his performances, because a lot of the comments about him (not just here) have been, as you accuse me, one-eyed.

[third policeman]

Bazunu is as important as anybody. Doherty is featuring more frequently. Callum Robinson has become essential. Omobamidele was very good against Serbia as the third centre half, comfortable in defence and pushing up a little. That is 5.

No that’s four players actually, not all of them have instrumental to a change in style, especially a goal keeper, Robinson got caps under Mick, when available, Doherty is not exactly a neophyte. Omobamidele is a real find, but not sure that he wouldn’t have promoted irrespective of who the manager was.

[Stuttgart88]

Ah come on Stutts. Is that how you react to a view different to yours?

Ditto the Bazunu stuff - there can be no harm in some balance in analysing his performances, because a lot of the comments about him (not just here) have been, as you accuse me, one-eyed.No, it's how I react to constant tedious whingeing.

I don't recall any as one eyed about Bazunu as you have been. I think most have recognised that he' s got away with some mistakes that would have changed the narrative. But I'd take Shane Duffy's opinion of him over anyone's here.

[Olé Olé]

No that’s four players actually, not all of them have instrumental to a change in style, especially a goal keeper, Robinson got caps under Mick, when available, Doherty is not exactly a neophyte. Omobamidele is a real find, but not sure that he wouldn’t have promoted irrespective of who the manager was.
4 to go with Cullen that you had already put forward... Actually.

[John83]

Not only missing the import of what went on in that game last night by a country mile,
Subjective.


but the goalposts have been moved, a workmanlike deserved draw against Portugal at home is not good enough to appraise the merits of Kenny, it's reduced due the opposition not at their peak, therefore now Luxembourg is the key :rolleyes:
Here's what I last had to say on it.

...Sterner tests await, and I feel like the league table - which sees us 1 point behind Luxembourg albeit with much better goal difference hinting at some bad luck - is still the litmus test Kenny is failing. The game against Luxembourg next window will be critical in assessing whether Kenny has really found his feet.
Would you like to apologise for lying about the shifting goalposts? I get the feeling I'll be waiting.


What if it's a regular away game performance to a decent in form side (such as Luxembourg are now) in a qualification campaign, the type of game for decades that we have struggled to win or even draw, oft times losing, the type of game from Giles onward where we have performed ignobly, or what if it's akin to the performance when a much superior Ireland team under Charlton struggled both home and away to an inferior Luxembourg?
Pineapple Stu has already dismantled this.


But now Kenny is supposed to be judged on this key game?
Yes, because he's fourth, and in losing to Luxembourg and drawing with Azerbaijan (both aberrant performances, you say; gosh he must be unlucky as hell). If he'd beaten Luxembourg already, this would not be a critical game for him. It will decide whether or not he finishes 4th behind a Luxembourg team which is objectively rubbish.


There's bull and there's total bull.
Seeing as my post came first, I guess we know what that makes yours.


And Fwiw I have have little respect for the that type of Irish boorishness that not only does not understand the Peig life experience but who condescend to sneer at her and her life experience.
Gosh, if you thought I was sneering at her, you would be traumatised by my attitude to your unwarranted belligerence.