Do or die for Summer Soccer!!!

[dcfcsteve]

Crowds are down. I didn't expect it to solve the problems of the league, I didn't expect it to be fookin worse...

Some crowds are down. Some crowds are up. Can you say conclusively that any of this is a direct result of Summer football.....?

[Jerry The Saint]

That part isn't true. No Irish team won so much as a game in the InterToto before the switch to summer soccer (the last season of winter soccer, Cork lost home and away to a Latvian team). Summer soccer comes along, Pat's beat a Croatian team, Rovers beat a Polish team and Cork beat Swedish and Dutch opposition. Even Bohs' performance this season - winning one match against decent opposition - was better than anything achieved before the switch.

But if you look at Bohs and Longford specifically there's been no great improvement (just look at the Estonian results for Bohs):

Bohs Results
2000-2001 UEFA Prel Aberdeen (Sco) A 0-1 2-1
2000-2001 UEFA 1st Kaiserslautern (Ger) H 1-3 1-0
2001-2002 ECC Qual-1 Levadia Maardu (Est) H 3-0 0-0
2001-2002 ECC Qual-2 Halmstads BK (Swe) H 1-2 0-2
2003-2004 ECC Qual-1 Bate Borisov (Bls) A 3-0 0-1
2003-2004 ECC Qual-2 Rosenborg (Nor) H 0-1 0-4
2004-2005 UEFA Qual-1 Levadia Tallinn (Est) A 1-3 0-0

Longford Results
2001-2002 UEFA Prel Litex Lovech (Bul) H 1-1 0-2
2004-2005 UEFA Prel FC Vaduz (Lie) A 2-3 0-1


I'll give you that InterToto results have improved but what has been the impact of that - no improved ranking and little public interest outside the clubs involved. The Europe thing is what SS will live or die on (as the topic suggests!) and I think the jury is still out. Considering the higher standard of players and training, you would expect our results to be better than at any other time during the past 30 years. If the standard continues to rise to the point where group qualification is a reasonable expectation, does anyone think it could be a short-sighted view - setting up your entire season around the preliminary rounds of the competitons?

I was against the season change from the start and kind of expected things to turn out as they have, given the lack of research/planning. Soccer has traditionally been an Autumn, Winter, Spring sport except where climate dictates otherwise. As much as we moan, the Irish winter does not generally prohibit the playing of outdoor field sports! I would have taken a (lengthy?) winter break as a better experiment than diving into the present situation. I can understand the benefits of avoiding the Carlisle grounds during a cold snap and instead using the trip to take in the seaside during the height of summer (although the fixture list sees Pats travelling there in March and September :( ) but I believe that if the product is good enough (including marketing) people would come out for an August-May season.

As it is we've yielded a good portion of the year to rugby, with no other popular sports available to spectators within Ireland for a number of months. As we all know, people have other things to do during the summer - winter is boring, how long was the last close season!? :D

[Bluebeard]

Where we go again - we made one change and the whole world hasn't started spinning the other way within three years, so we'd better change back to the way things were. What is it with people running football? Why must all proposed changes last no longer than three or four years before reverting back to the way it was, unless there is a momentuous change? It takes three to four years for folk to get used to a system, never mind for it to work. It's the ten team league all over again - two years in, someone starts crying that they don't like it, and everything shunts back to the way things were without a murmur.

Personally speaking, I think that the ten team league combined with Summer Soccertm was starting to yield results (noting that one, if not both, would not necessarily suit the Blues). And I mean starting only - if you want to look next door, you'll notice that the introduction of the Premiership concept took around six years to have a direct impact in European competition, and at International level, introducing three points for a win took about four to six years before there was a consistent improvement in the quality of football.

It would be a step backwards to revert within the next three years - six to ten years should demonstrate whether or not it has worked (as would have been the case with the ten team league :rolleyes:

[pineapple stu]

Rovers beat Altayspor 3-1 in 98 (3-2 AET), i'd imagine there must be some other wins as well.
God, I'd forgotten that!

All-time InterToto results -

1995 - Bohs lost four from four to Bordeaux, Odense, Helsinki and Norrkoping
1996 - Sligo drew two (to Nantes and Heerenveen) and lost two (to Inkranes, now Kaunas, and Lillestrom)
1997 - Cork drew with Aarau, Liege and Maccabi Petach, and lost to Koln (though without scoring a single goal)
1998 - Rovers lost to Altay aet
1999 - Shels drew and lost to Xamax
2000 - UCD drew with Kyustendil twice
2001 - Cork lost to Metalurgs twice
2002 - 2005 - as noted above.

So I'm not gone that senile yet...! :)

[Schumi]

1997 - Cork drew with Aarau, Liege and Maccabi Petach, and lost to Koln (though without scoring a single goal)
Ambitionless, boring, defensive football? :D

[pineapple stu]

But if you look at Bohs and Longford specifically there's been no great improvement
I think it's a bit soon for saying that. Bohs were in turmoil last season - the Estonian result saw Kenny sacked, so at least expectations are up. The first year in Europe was a disaster, granted - Rovers and First Division Dundalk both got hammered, Shels lost to a Maltese team. Last year showed the potential of summer soccer. This year, I would hope, will see us build on that now that Shels and Cork have set the benchmark.

That said, there is something not right about matches in glorious sunshine as opposed to the dark. Maybe starting the season in June and running through to March could have been an alternative? Best of both worlds (Europe is in-season, and you still avoid the summer)?

[pete]

This isn't meant to be a dig at Longford but I think eL results in Europe have usually been let down by the FAI Cup winning team in the Uefa Cup.

We need teams 1,2,3 from the league to be qualifying each year. Bohs was a shock losing to Estonians but experienced European teams usually do better each year.

[pineapple stu]

This isn't meant to be a dig at Longford but I think eL results in Europe have usually been let down by the FAI Cup winning team in the Uefa Cup.
True (Dundalk and Bray spring to mind as well), but in fairness, it's the same for every country, so it hardly puts us at a disadvantage. In fact, we're benefitting this year by playing the sixth team in Wales (Carmarthen), who qualifed as Cup runners-up.

[Slash/ED]

Crowds are down. I didn't expect it to solve the problems of the league, I didn't expect it to be fookin worse...

Are they? They don't seem to be imo, for a start only now are we getting an accurate picture of crowds anyway and it looks to me like some teams are up and others are down, which is what you would expect at any stage. I really doubt that the prospect of watching matches in sunshine is putting people off going.

And the improvements in results in Europe, how can anyone even begin to dispute this? Before last season an Irish team had only won two ties in Europe in one go once. Once ever in the history of the league. Last year we had twice in one year for christ sake! It's a huge improvement.

Also it seems to suit Setanta to show matches during the summer, so we're pratically at a live game every week on there atm. You could argue that's not all down to summer football, but I'd imagine every season the majority of there games will come between july and august. It has definitely helped.

[rerun]

With summer holidays for 2/3 months families and kids are away and its the youth that we need to attrcat and keep for the league to prosper.
Not wanting to pick holes in your argument, but people travel abroad for, on average, 2 weeks, some maybe three. So maybe they don't make one home game or at worst 2. Or maybe all the Bohs supporters travel away together from June to Sept, I don't know. Probably visiting the Shels fans who seem to be permanently away :)

[Macy]

This isn't meant to be a dig at Longford but I think eL results in Europe have usually been let down by the FAI Cup winning team in the Uefa Cup.
That place is the old Cup Winners Cup place, so it should stay with the Cup Winners. There is perhaps a case for making it third in the league if the winners have already qualified for Europe, though.


Slash/ED - I'm not suggesting that the prospect of watching football in the sunshine puts people off. However, there's far more competing distractions in the summer imo.

[dcfcsteve]

the Estonian result saw Kenny sacked, so at least expectations are up.

Thank you, Levadia Tallin - thank you ! :D

[pineapple stu]

Not wanting to pick holes in your argument, but people travel abroad for, on average, 2 weeks, some maybe three. So maybe they don't make one home game or at worst 2.
I think it's that if you have 1,000 people who all go abroad for two weeks over the same eight week period, then at any one stage, you can expect your home gate to be down 250.

[Rory H]

think yesterday showed summer soccer is a success

the ni league will want it now probably

[Jerry The Saint]

think yesterday showed summer soccer is a success

the ni league will want it now probably

They faded a bit near the end though, didn't they? :eek: Full-time professionals (including internationals) in the middle of their season against a bunch of part-time shipbuilders* in their first game out...

I know George Hamilton made a big thing about the summer soccer advantage but the fact that Shels are a FAR better team than Glentoran had to be a bigger factor. The big tests will be in subsequent rounds (unless Glentoran do a Linfield and spank them in Tolka...)


* not sure what job was appropriate to give to the Glens to indicate their part-time setup. e.g. Ice-cream sellers for Maltese teams, Polish coalminers, etc. :D

[NY Hoop]

IMO it was the best decision ever made. Who wants to go to a game on freezing cold nights with ****ing rain? I know one lad who got pneumonia after a game in tolka years back.

The weather is better, the pitches are better and it is more condusive to playing the ball on the ground. Not saying that all teams do but the opportunity is there.

But the bottom line is better European results. No way would shels have coasted last night if we were still in the old season. This league wont be taken seriously unless results in Europe improve and the only way to continue this is by sticking by summer soccer.

What they should have done is stick with the 10 team premier league but no they ditch it after a measly 3 years. What is with the administrators of this league? They seem to change things for an initial period of 5 years as if they are expecting failure.

For a healthy future stick with the summer soccer, bring back the 10 team league, have fixed kick off times, proper one hour highlights show showing EVERY premier game and most importantly for all clubs to live within their means. We'll see.............

KOH

[pineapple stu]

the pitches are better and it is more condusive to playing the ball on the ground.
I wish people would stop saying this. In fairness, you did qualify it by saying that "the opportunity was there", but the fact of the matter is that, after having a four month break, the start of the season saw Dalymount and Turner's Cross in disgraceful condition, last season saw Flancare Park as a beach, I think Tolka got a bit of stick during one of the Setanta games (?) and even the RSC last week was fairly bumpy. In fact, I can't remember when the pitches were worse (which isn't going back too far). Maybe the opportunity is there for clubs to make them better, but they certainly aren't at the moment.

[Slash/ED]

No Tolka never got any stick, in fact they kept going on about how good it was. It's the best I've ever seen it this season.

[pineapple stu]

No Tolka never got any stick, in fact they kept going on about how good it was.
Well, OK - I qualify my statement. I remember them saying on Setanta that it was great but thinking that that was a load of rubbish which fell under the usual "Let's pretend everything's world class" style of commentary... ;)

[EnDai]

Surely there can be no questions now!!!! :D :D :D

[Ronnie]

The fitness difference in Flancare last night was very noticeable. The ability of our players to pressurise the Welsh boys for the 90 minutes meant they were hanging on for a two nil defeat.
Cork played the best team in Lithuania , won 2-0, and the opposition also play summer soccer.
Shels were very dominant against Glens on Wednesday. I'd go as far as to say that there wouldn't have been a hope in hell of getting 3 out of 3, and 2 wins away from home, if it wasn't for summer soccer!

[Jerry The Saint]

Look, I know everyone thinks summer soccer is the new Disneyland or something, and we're not supposed to speak ill of it, but just bear with me while I try and put a bit of perspective on it's influence on these superb results. :)

It should be well noted at this stage that the eircom League is currently of a higher standard than it has been for decades, if ever, thanks to full-time professionalism and a better standard of players. Coaching and tactical awareness have improved significantly under the new breed of coaches with less old-school windbags hanging around the league (even if they are usually the most vocal ;) ).

The Cork City result was outstanding, up there with Shels vs. Hajduk in Tolka and probably the best away result ever (Bohs vs. K'slautern, Pats vs. ******, Shels vs. Rosenborg all coming in games that had less bearing on the overall outcome of the tie). But the advantage of summer soccer was diluted greatly by the fact that Ekranes are also mid-season (and, like Cork, in the middle of a great run of form).

Longford's great win against a mid-ranking Welsh side should have been no shock as our league has been superior to the League of Wales since its foundation (see Cork vs. Cwmbran Town in '93). It's amazing to think how far Longford have come and their an example to all basket-case clubs that success can come if you get your act together off the pitch.

Fair enough if a change in the seasons, on top of a steady improvement in the years before the switch, has increased confidence and allowed our teams to shake off an inferiority complex then great! I don't think we should go overboard on the benefit of increased match practice prior to Europe against the simple fact that we now have a highly-competitive league at this level of Europe. This gives barstoolers a ready-made explanation for the recent victories - "Ah sure, no wonder they can win a few games. The other lads haven't even done any training" - that, in the case of Cork especially this week, doesn't do them justice.

[NY Hoop]

You can be full time all you want but its match fitness that's crucial. Hence the change of season has resulted in these great wins.

Higher standard than it has been for decades? Not sure about that. I've been Hooping for 20 years and it's been much of a muchness really.

The Odra away win would be the outstanding result given that we were part time then although they were just back in training. The polish league too would be of a higher standard than lithuania. Not however taking away from cork's result. Well done Damo!

KOH

[manic da hoop]

The fact is that July starts to European compitition is here to stay and if we are to take our participation in these games seriously then summer football is the only way this can be achieved. Looking Glens on Wednesday reminded me of an LOI team in Europe ten years ago - lots of huff and puff, plenty of effort and hard work, but in the end just not quite matching their opponent in pretty much every department. For years we have been critical of the way our clubs prepare for European competition, not that we seem to be on the right track how can we turn our backs on what has been central to that improvement?

[Slash/ED]

The Cork City result was outstanding, up there with Shels vs. Hajduk in Tolka and probably the best away result ever (Bohs vs. K'slautern, Pats vs. ******, Shels vs. Rosenborg all coming in games that had less bearing on the overall outcome of the tie). But the advantage of summer soccer was diluted greatly by the fact that Ekranes are also mid-season (and, like Cork, in the middle of a great run of form).


You miss the point, it's ties against teams who play summer soccer that the advantage really becomes apparent. No longer are we miles behind in fitness and preperation coming into these games, we now face these teams on an even playing field and it comes down to who's the better team. If that game was played during a winter season Cork more than likely would not have been in a position to score a last minute goal and probably would have come home 1-1 or worse rather than 2-0. Summer soccer gives us a huge advantage over some, but it's biggest effect is in leveling the playing field against the others. Last year Shels first two opponents played summer soccer, as did Malmo who Cork destroyed. Results could have been alot different if they had the summer soccer advantage over us. Instead we had a level playing field and it came down to who was better. We're now getting results rather than excuses.

[pete]

If anyone doubted the power of summer football i think this weeks Euro results blew it away.

Euro results may not mean much to the other teams in the league but when we can't beat supposed football nobodies (according to barstoolers) then have little hope of getting bigger numbers to the games.

Fantastic professional european result by City. I have no doubt could have scored more if needed to but away goals & clean sheet are important in europe. Was most interesting to see city control possession near the end & Ekranas looked very tired. Without summer football that result would have been very unlikely.

[goattail]

These ridiculous Friday night ties are having a worse affect on attendance then summer soccer. At least now the lack of floodlights arent an issue for the poorer clubs.

[Troy.McClure]

Deff dont agree there.

Sat afternoon is out coz of the EPL and having had to watch Cork play on Sunday afternoons for years I can def say that Friday night is football night.

The first Friday night game we had at the X had to be postponed 15 min coz of crowd congestion, and its happened a few times since! I can never never remember that happening after my Sunday lunch. Its a balls for traveling, but I dont think that Irish fans go for regular traveling that much to be honest.

I love the way I can go to a ground now and not have to worry about hyperthermia :)

[pete]

These ridiculous Friday night ties are having a worse affect on attendance then summer soccer. At least now the lack of floodlights arent an issue for the poorer clubs.

I think all clubs have floodlights now.

[A face]

The first Friday night game we had at the X had to be postponed 15 min coz of crowd congestion, and its happened a few times since!

Whats even better is the "Sold Out" signs on the gates of Turners Cross before a game .... that is a great sign ..... friday nights are the business amd changed football attendances in Cork for the better (maybe not all on its own, but definitely helped) .... friday nights are the job now, a game of ball, watching one of the best team in the country and in town for a few jars after, what more do you want !!

[NY Hoop]

Change to saturday nights. You'd still have the good crowds and a much healthier away attendance. Works both ways. No travelling on fridays, no half days from work. Friday nights for derbies only. Harps and longford have the idea. Hopefully other clubs will follow suit.


KOH

[pineapple stu]

A lad in work here used to go to Dundalk games regularly when he was younger - says the Friday nights were great because it was something to look forward to at the end of the school week. Not as relevant now with summer soccer, I suppose, but if it's going to actively encourage kids to go to matches, it's good.

[Jerry The Saint]

Change to saturday nights. You'd still have the good crowds and a much healthier away attendance. Works both ways. No travelling on fridays, no half days from work. Friday nights for derbies only. Harps and longford have the idea. Hopefully other clubs will follow suit.


KOH

Will Shamrock be allowed to have night matches in Tallaght? I remember there were some odd restrictions when planning permission was granted, like having to play most games on Sunday afternoon. Will these still apply if the council are in charge?