Political / Social Discussion of London Bombings

[Éanna]

Eanna totally agree with you about genuine grievances in relation to palestine and other areas but by all accounts this is Al Quieda respnsible for this. Their stated aim is an islamic jihad ie. a religous revoution against christian democracy etc. our way of life especially they way we give rights to all individuals regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation etc is an afront to them. Our society as they see it is decadent and they will only be able to have their Jihad by creating racist and religous tensions in the west causing terror etc. It does not matter to them where the Americans or the Brits are in the world they would still target them.
It is widely believed that one of the reason the twin towers was targetted was because it was a symbol of all they hated in the west, a place where all races and religions mixed and cohabited etc. The mixing of Muslims in places like New York, London etc is also a threat to their beliefs.

Now if it was some group trying to make some point about Palestine or Iraq well then that is a completely different kettle of fish.
These terrorists are the modern day fascists and must be opposed just like we did against Hitler, Stalin etc etc.
No Platform for Fascists used to be the slogan of AFA years ago and when it comes to these fundamentalists the same approach should be taken.Do you seriously think that they intend taking over the west? Basically, they're racists who think that their way of life is better and want all western influence out of their countries. The bottom line is this: as long as there are situations like Iraq, Palestine, Saudi Arabia etc., ordinary people in the "arab street" will support the actions of Al Qaeda. If you neutralise these problems, you destroy their support and thus their chances of doing anything.

[Closed Account 2]

Do you seriously think that they intend taking over the west?

Well, both Abu Hamza and Al-Muhajiroun (a UK militant Islamic group lead by Omar Bakri) have stated their desire to impose Sharia Law in the UK. That is the law that re-imposes dhimmitude (non-Muslims having a lower legal status and having to pay a specific non-Muslim tax), stones women to death, and beheads gay people, by the way. Many people could view that as in effect wanting to take over the West.

Fundamentalist groups like the above tend to view the world in two terms, the Dar-al-Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar_al-Islam) (literally meaning the lands of submission) but in real terms the Islamic world, and the Dar al-Harb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar_al-Harb) (literally meaning the "lands of war"). While they desire to reinforce what they perceive as Islamic values in the Dar-al-Islam, they also want to spread Islamic (again what they percieve as Islamic) ideals in the Dar-al-Harb.

Also their definitions of what is in the Dar-al-Islam and the Dar-al-Harb tend to differ from what one might expect. It can be that the Dar-al-Islam is made up of countries governed by Muslims and the Dar-al-HArb is governed by non Muslims. But some fundamentalist take it more from history, for some Spain is considered to be in the Dar-al-Islam, as historically it was at one point part of a Muslim Empire, similarly the former Yugoslavia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Southern Russia, Eastern China, Southern Thailand etc.

So there is, in my opinion, a certain degree of wanting to take over the West on the part of fundamentalists.

[dcfcsteve]

You come into a country you abide by the laws of the country and try to integrate.

Indeed, but vast numbers of people from all parts of the world don't. Plenty of people from both the UK and outside of it don't abide by the country's laws to at least some extent. So what's your answer - extradite them all ?

As for integration - for decades the Irish in London pretty much kept to themselves and hung out in exclusively Irish bars and clubs (there's a number of books available on this subject if you don't appreciate the degree of separation that occured). So the Irish are therefore bad people ? I live in an area of 40,000 Portuguese people in South London where I hear Portuguese spoken as often as English, and everyone hangs out in Portugues restaurants and coffee shops. The local schools have to employ Portuguese speakers, as otherwise they can't communicate with the parents. I've even met young people here who don't speak English. How dare they all not just integrate and walk around wearing bowler hats and cricket whites, drinking tea and cucumber sandwiches whilst whistling God Save the Queen...! :eek: So what's your answer then to the reality of life that integration takes GENERATIONS to occur ? What should we do in the meantime - shoot/jail/extradite everyone who doesn't instantly become English ??


Thought I loathe the IRA cant remember them bombing trains or buses and deliberatly targeting civilians. {/QUOTE]
So what were the bombs in Bishopsgate, Manchester, Warrington, Guildford, Birmingham etc etc etc all about ? Yoi can't put bombs in busy public places and not expect to kill civilians. Reagrdless - the views you've been expressing on here are bordering on the extreme (kicking people out etc), and mirror the very same views against the Irish that were churned up with IRA atrocities - regardless of whether civilians were involved.

[QUOTE=Condex]I was in Mikes bar and did know that British Muslim blew the place up. There are plenty of young British Muslims being radicalised by the preaching of foreign immans (there are few British born immans).

2 British citizens were involved in that incident, so now you know. Just like British citizens have been involved in incidents in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. You can blame outsiders for coming in and polluting their minds if you want, but in the information age when they're much more likely to read and nurture extremist views on the web and through literature, I think you're being rather simplistic. As for the origin of Imans - regardless of where they come from, the overwhelming majority of them in this country abhorr what happened on Thursday, and said so at yesterday's prayer services. But sure we should just boot-out all the foreign ones out as they're all the same.....


And as for repatriation Britain has given asylum/indefinte leave to remain to several Islamic extermists (where do you think the term Londonistan comes from). Can't extradite others because it would infringe their human rights, what about our human rights..

I'm aware of one extremist who has been difficult for the country ro remove (Abu Hamza - the guy with the hook). There may well be others, but not that I'm aware of. With regards extradition - the law is very clear on what weight of evidence is required to do this. It is up to the authorities to therefore satisfy the law - and thereby remove any doubt - before it can start shipping people out. That is reasonable, and strikes a balance between human rights and the introduction of a police state. If someone is an extremist, then prove it to the satifaction of the courts and they'll be bucked out. It's very simple...

As for Londonistan - what does that little heard name prove then ? It's just a makey-uppy phrase that will be humorous to Pakistani's etc. It's no different than towns in the US being given Irishy nicknames etc. I'm surprised you can type with that many straws clutched in your hands..... :D ;)

[Éanna]

Eanna, how dare you? What part of that post was rubbish? :mad:
Unlike yourself and most other people on here spouting off, I have actually worked in Iraq.
I've lived, embedded with Coalition forces, and I've seen first hand what is going on out there.
I've spoke to people who have seen death and destruction close up and my opinions are shaped by what they have told me and by what I saw myself in Iraq.
I was just making the point that it is an unwinnable war. Do you think Islamic fundamentalists don't have a problem with Dublin being a haven for American and British tourists?
It's not about Bush and Blair. Leaders will change, but these lunatics aren't going away.
Let me put it to you this way- anyone who uses the word liberal as an insult/put-down (which you did in your post) is not worth listening to IMO.

[Éanna]

I'm a TV reporter pal. I just do a job and give people the information and let them make up their own minds.
How are things on your Dublin barstool today?
Dublin? If you're a TV reporter, well then that's different, but your comment was that you had worked in Iraq, and I wasn't to know it was as a reporter- for that, you have my apologies. I've edited my post, the rest stands though

[Condex]

There are loads of people working in Iraq who aren't in the military. I met nurses from all over the world who are just trying to help.
The reason I had a pop at liberals in the UK is because I am sick to the back teeth of hearing them rattle on about the police here.
The only reason London hasn't been hit before now by Al-Qaeda is the hard work of the police and the intelligence services.
I am also sick of sitting in court cases and seeing people who have been found with explosives, etc, getting lenient sentences.
It's time to start standing up and speaking out.
I'm getting this off my chest here because I don't get the chance to professionally.

Hear, hear!!!

[liam88]

There are loads of people working in Iraq who aren't in the military. I met nurses from all over the world who are just trying to help.
The reason I had a pop at liberals in the UK is because I am sick to the back teeth of hearing them rattle on about the police here.
The only reason London hasn't been hit before now by Al-Qaeda is the hard work of the police and the intelligence services.
I am also sick of sitting in court cases and seeing people who have been found with explosives, etc, getting lenient sentences.
It's time to start standing up and speaking out.
I'm getting this off my chest here because I don't get the chance to professionally.
Mate I'm with you 100%. Eanna a lot of people are angry/upset about Thursday so it's understandable that a lot of very open and emotional opinions are going to be posted-it's rediculous to bin posts you don't like just because you disagree with them and you ahve the power to do so.

[Éanna]

Mate I'm with you 100%. Eanna a lot of people are angry/upset about Thursday so it's understandable that a lot of very open and emotional opinions are going to be posted-it's rediculous to bin posts you don't like just because you disagree with them and you ahve the power to do so.
its indeed understandable, I was quite upset about it myself. And I've PMed you re your accusation, I suggest you think again

[dahamsta]

You were warned children. Find another site to discuss this subject. Any further discussion will be binned.

adam