Jumping on the bandwagon?

[brendy_éire]

I'm on about the Make Poverty History thing in the top right corner.
Whilst it's all very fashionable to get behind Geldof and Co., I fail to see how a bunch of rich people complaining about another bunch of rich people will actually make an ounce of difference to poverty in Africa or anywhere else in the world.
Call me a cynic, but what's going to happen with all the money from the extra album sales these fellas make?
Anyone else feel slightly uneasy about the whole campaign? Seems to me to have been manipulated by a group of rich ****s for their own personal gain.
Noticed today that the London Times is supporting the campaign. Guess who owns the paper......Rupert Murdoch. :rolleyes:

[paul_oshea]

aye what is this "make poverty history" about??? i dont get it.

anyhow, bono bringnig someone to court over a few items of clothing as he wants the money from the sales...the band are going to make 157 million euro from this tour...how much is he gonig to give to the poor??? how much has geldof given?

money where your mouth is i say....

i would never go to see u2 as bono drives me mad, he is so full of minure.

[Cosmo]

I have to say I was thinking that myself - i havent bought into it at all tbh.

Theres U2 playing 3 dublin gigs - as a gesture could they not have said feck it, sure we'll give all the money we make on the 3rd gig to charity!!!

[paul_oshea]

exactly they could well afford too. they are full of minure.

[fosterdollar]

exactly they could well afford too. they are full of minure.

Exactly how many times will you have said that about them before you realise you're not even spelling it correctly? I'll say two, maybe even three.

[Babysis]

The problem i have with it all, is that its all good and well sending of shed loadsa cash and asking them to wipe out the debt,but surely unless changes are made within the governments and structures within each of those countries, the same problems are just going to reoccur.

20 years ago, or what ever it was , it Live aid, and all that money went over over ether. yet here we are still having to raise money. Thats the part that stops me getting involved or going, becasue it wont change untill they change the way countries are run - maybe Im wrong, but thats my take on it :o

[Armando]

U2 have given €5 million to charity from this tour - thats more than the 3 Croke Park gigs put together made. The truth is it doesn't matter what they and others like them do, a large slice of the public will be cynical about it. I mean how can anyone question Bob Geldofs motives? It's truly bizarre. :confused:

[Dawn_Run]

Bono/Geldof are by no means my favourite people but make no mistake. What these guys are doing is using their prominent positions in media circles to do good for those less well off than ourselves. Of course they stand to 'gain' publicity for their troubles. So what. There should be more people like them in the world and less people like you lot whinging about them. :mad:

[Troy.McClure]

I support the make trade fair/make poverty history campaign, might as well get that out of the way.

Geldof & Bono et al do actually give a lot of their own money (and time) to charities, fair enough they have millions in the bank, but even if they gave everything they ever grossed, it still wouldnt really help an awful lot unfortunitly. Anyway, these guys are figureheads, people listen to them because they are recognisable, not because of the hands on work they have put in to the campaigns. Its like politics in the UK: the queen is the figure head but its Tony Blair who calls the shots, so dont get too ruffeled about the singers asking governments to make trade fair.

[Quick example]
Every year the US government gives its rice farmers $1 billion to over produce rice to keep themselves in business. The surplus rice is then exported, at below cost prices, to third world countries (often as "aid"). This flood of excessively cheap food then forces local farmers to go out of business because they can no longer compete with this exported rice, forcing them out of work and adding to the unemployed. So these farmers go from being self sustained to joining the aid queue. This practice is called dumping and is putting millions out of jobs and homes each year. The phrase "trade not aid" is used a good bit now as it is seen as a longterm solution to helping poorer countries instead of throwing millions at them each year. [/Quick example]

[Cosmo]

Well, correct me if im wrong but didnt he give himself a slot for the concert in edinburgh (could sell a few records after that, handy eh?) but has since backed down because of people giving out about it :rolleyes: !!

Cosmo, the conspiracy theorist :D

[Roo69]

U2 have given €5 million to charity from this tour - thats more than the 3 Croke Park gigs put together made. The truth is it doesn't matter what they and others like them do, a large slice of the public will be cynical about it. I mean how can anyone question Bob Geldofs motives? It's truly bizarre. :confused:

Fully agreed with ya there mate, someone tryong to put pressure on Governments to try and make the world a better place and he's getting stick for it :confused: Does not make sense. Pack of cynical moany s*ite bags !

[dahamsta]

The people being critical of the Make Poverty History campaign have a very limited understanding of what it aims to achieve and how it's attempting to do that. For example the aforementioned "bunch of rich people" are certainly signed up to complain - and more power to them for it, what would you be calling them if they didn't - but they're mostly being used to get you to sign up to complain too. It's about bringing the message to as many people as possible, and quite literally asking them to get involved.

I'd suggest that you click on the banner above and take ten minutes to read the website it links to. Rather ironic that I actually have to say this. Just a little bit pathetic too.

I've taken the commerical banners off the site for a week or so while I'm running that banner, am I just looking for attention too? :rolleyes:

adam

[Peadar]

I've taken the commerical banners off the site for a week or so while I'm running that banner, am I just looking for attention too? :rolleyes:

Just on the subject of the banner, it's a good idea to display it like that because it gets noticed. Standard banners are ignored by most people.
I like it.

[Troy.McClure]

You could also go here to Make Trade Fair (http://www.maketradefair.com/en/index.htm)

[pete]

I kinda agree with 1st post ideas. definitely lot of bandwagon jumping.

"Make Poverty History" in IMO is a dubious slogan. Like it or not there will always be poverty so is not an achievable aim.

Also Debt Relief is great idea but then again so seriously dodgy rulers in these 3rd world countries. Only recently at a Debt Relief Press Conference had Ethiopian PM with Tony Blair & others when at the same time his police force was killing student protestors.

Fair Trade is great too & easy to criticise the US but the EU is just as bad. Ireland is huge beneficiary of the EU Food subsidies - do we really want them abolished?

I don't see how a concert will solve anything - wouldn't it be better to donate the money used to host the concerts for sustainable development?

I don't think this should be Bono debate but IMO U2 are expected to give to charity as save millions every year with tax free artist status!

[Macy]

"Make Poverty History" in IMO is a dubious slogan. Like it or not there will always be poverty so is not an achievable aim.
Why isn't it achievable? No reason for poverty in this country, bar the pathetic Government we have... However, the poverty they are trying to make history is actually hard to comprehend, as we're talking about so little to make such a difference.

[Troy.McClure]

Fair Trade is great too & easy to criticise the US but the EU is just as bad. Absolutly


Ireland is huge beneficiary of the EU Food subsidies - do we really want them abolished?

Id rather pay more directly to farmers for thier produce than give them subsidies just to survive. The reality is that farming in the EU and especially in Ireland should downsize dramatically (I'll leave the "but its our way of life" debate for another thread). There's no other industry that would get such huge subsidies to keep it alive when it is no longer needed (in the size of its scale) so why should farming be any different? Its actually happening right now with the sugar beet processing in Ireland. Although I do have sympathy for those involved, if there's no market for it then they shouldnt be producing it :o We live in a capitalist society, not communist. :eek:

[rebs23]

In fairness to Geldof and the campaign they honestly believe in what they are doing and they are highlighting issues that need attention but there will not be long term gain in Africa until tin pot dictators, warlords, tribal chieftains etc are put out of business once and for all. True democratic reform and the removal of trade barriers is the long term solution.

I do understand some of the cynical attitudes out there towards it but I suppose so what if they are getting somewhere.

[dahamsta]

"Make Poverty History" in IMO is a dubious slogan. Like it or not there will always be poverty so is not an achievable aim.Read the manifesto (http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/docs/manifesto.pdf) (PDF) and come back and tell us that again. There's no reason nor need for poverty in modern society.

adam

[noby]

Id rather pay more directly to farmers for thier produce than give them subsidies just to survive.......Its actually happening right now with the sugar beet processing in Ireland. Although I do have sympathy for those involved, if there's no market for it then they shouldnt be producing it


Without getting too bogged down into it and further off topic, the reason the irish sugar industry can't be sustained is they can't compete with heavily subsidised (by EU) foreign sugar industries. If it was a level playing field, I'm sure the local industry would be doing ok.
While I don't have any references off-hand, I remember reading a report on Madagascar. The EU fixed a price to buy their sugar (their main industry), that is so far off market value now, that they can now sell their sugar to the EU, then import sugar from another country, and still make a profit.

[anto1208]

lads to have your debt cleared by a g8 country the african country has to prove none of the money will go to the goverment to build big palaces but guns etc there debts will be cancelled as soon as they can prove they are conrupt and they have a lot to prove , its like like trowing money at the problem


the fair trade thing is , all the extra food our goverment pays farmers to over produce is sold in african countries at a much lower price than the farmers there can afford to sell it so they cant afford to keep there families because of the cheap imports

also the thing about u2 is not that they are tight over the money she wrote a book with a lot of rubbish in it and the band fell out with her over the book , and dont feel that someone that stabbed them in the back should make money from selling there stuff .



but it really annoys me when people have a go at bono or geldof , so what if they are doing it to improve there image (which i dont think they are i think they are just decent blokes) people are f***ing starving to death every few seconds and if this whole campain saves even just one extra person then its worth it .whats worse are the people that do nothing but come on forums and slag of the whole thing

the concerts are paid for by people txt n for the tickets which are free (price of a txt ) all artists play for free all roadies etc work for free , and the concerts are to keep pressure on the leaders of the g8 countries

[patsh]

The most important thing that needs to be done is to END THE ARMS TRADE.

Close down the munitions factories, the rifle, gun, mine and bullet factories, etc. etc.
This aim is probably more achieveable than making poverty history, yet nobody is making this a big campaign.
This is what people should be campaigning for, it's the reason why most countries are in debt in the first place, and it's why despots, crackpots and murders are in power in too many countries.

I'll be cqalled a tree-hugger or a do-gooder by some, but this is an achevable goal that will do much, much more for the worlds poor than any debt-relief or anything like that.

[anto eile]

rich people telling me what to do with the fvck-all amount money i have ****es me off. geldof needs a shave a haircut and a wash.scruffy knacker. as for bono. the *****r is suing in court for 15 year old items worth a lousy E5,000, when their world tour has already grossed a A QUARTER OF A BILLION EURO so far!!what a cvnt

[jjppc]

:D

but is validating and supporting people and systems who are contributing to the problems that these campaigns seek to cure such a good idea.

:
Good point, but is there a realistic alternative.

[REVIP]

Don't get hung up on Geldof and U2.

Some of us have been campaigning for years.

Parnell Square at 6.30 tomorrow. 5,000 + expected

[liam88]

The most important thing that needs to be done is to END THE ARMS TRADE.

Close down the munitions factories, the rifle, gun, mine and bullet factories, etc. etc.
This aim is probably more achieveable than making poverty history, yet nobody is making this a big campaign.

What about freeing Burma-this is realistic but nobody in power will do anything about it because theya re all to scared of the French and Total!

Don't get my wrong-I'm all for Make Poverty History-I stayed out all night on the Lodnon vigil and my best wishes to REVIP and everyone else campaigning and going to Live 8! What I'm saying though is if we can end world poverty (which we can and will) we can easily free Burma. Saturday's concert will probably change the world-and at the end of the day it doesn't matter if people are "jumping on the bandwagon" as long as they put pressure on the leaders to Make Poverty History.
If a big concert was staged in London to raise awarness about Burma it would be amazing and even those jumping on for the music etc. would get to know about the situation there. It could make a real difference!

Free Burma
Stop the Arms Trade
and yeah....MAKE POVERTY HISTORY!

[liam88]

One more point-Adam it's a shame every site on the internet hasn't got one of those bands-THAT would be cool.....good stuff and fair play to ya!

[anto1208]

rich people telling me what to do with the fvck-all amount money i have ****es me off. geldof needs a shave a haircut and a wash.scruffy knacker. as for bono. the *****r is suing in court for 15 year old items worth a lousy E5,000, when their world tour has already grossed a A QUARTER OF A BILLION EURO so far!!what a cvnt


if you only had a clue what you are on about you wouldnt look so silly , read my post above there are nt asking for money nor is bono sueing her for the lousy 5,000 euro .

[Troy.McClure]

The most important thing that needs to be done is to END THE ARMS TRADE.

Close down the munitions factories, the rifle, gun, mine and bullet factories, etc. etc.
This aim is probably more achieveable than making poverty history, yet nobody is making this a big campaign.
This is what people should be campaigning for, it's the reason why most countries are in debt in the first place, and it's why despots, crackpots and murders are in power in too many countries.

I'll be cqalled a tree-hugger or a do-gooder by some, but this is an achevable goal that will do much, much more for the worlds poor than any debt-relief or anything like that.

Not so my tree hugging do-gooder friend (http://www.oxfam.org/eng/programs_camp_arms.htm)

[brendy_éire]

Free Burma
Stop the Arms Trade
and yeah....MAKE POVERTY HISTORY!

Free Burma? Fair enough, but they'll still be getting screwed by the west no matter who their government is. It won't make much of a difference to the lives of ordinary people.
The arms trade won't stop whilst there's demand for weapons. It's easy money.
Making poverty history, as has been pointed out, is unachievable. Poverty is relative. Without relative poverty, capitalism simply wouldn't work. To make profit, one must make another person less well off. With no poverty, you'd have no profit motive.
And besides, any measures we take to make a real difference to the poverty in the rest of the world will inevitably mean a cut in our living standards. Why the **** would we want to do that? We've been brought up to be better capitalists' pawns than that.
Everyone's for reducing poverty, but will we pay for it from our own pockets? Will we give up our PCs and airplanes so that people in the developing world can have running water? Will we ****!
Like it or not, that's the way capitalism works. 'I'm doing grand, so **** everyone else'. There's no halfway house between capitalism and communism. Whinging about it won't change that.

[paul_oshea]

With capitalism, there will always be the rich and the poor. With communism, there are only the poor.

profound.

[jjppc]

There's no halfway house between capitalism and communism. Whinging about it won't change that.

What we have is winner takes all capitalism, look at the Scandinavian models of capitalism, not many poor Swedes or Finns there are over ways.



With capitalism, there will always be the rich and the poor. With communism, there are only the poor.

Compare Cuba as a communist state to similar capitalist countries in the same region like Guatemala and Honduras and I know where I would rather live.

[brendy_éire]

What we have is winner takes all capitalism, look at the Scandinavian models of capitalism, not many poor Swedes or Finns there are over ways.

Compared to most states, aye. But within Sweden and Finland there is still relative poverty. There's modification of the capitalism, but essentially, it's the same. There's still a rich class and a poor class in relation to each other.


Compare Cuba as a communist state to similar capitalist countries in the same region like Guatemala and Honduras and I know where I would rather live.

Well, Cuba's not communist, it's capitalist, with more state ownership than usual. They've done a decent enough job compared to their neighbours, but there's still inequality, and hence poverty, in Cuba.

We're getting a bit sidetracked here though. I see today that Bush is announcing more debt relief, more aid, etc, etc. Which has made me think, what exactly does Geldof and Co. want? At what point will they be happy that poverty has been made history? If poverty is relative, then surely they won't ever be happy until we have global equality? He's not claiming to be communist though. I don't get it. :confused:

[Troy.McClure]

Compared to most states, aye. But within Sweden and Finland there is still relative poverty. There's modification of the capitalism, but essentially, it's the same. There's still a rich class and a poor class in relation to each other.

Ya but at least they can still feed themselves :rolleyes:

[liam88]

Free Burma? Fair enough, but they'll still be getting screwed by the west no matter who their government is. It won't make much of a difference to the lives of ordinary people.

Rubbish! The "ordinary people" you talk of include half my family-fine after the British left and the before the regime took over. Look at Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, Japannot getting "screwed by the West"; with Aung Sung Suu Kyi-the rightful democratically elected Prime Minister in charge well be fine! Before the regime Rangoon was the busiest airpot in the far east!

Communism doen't work-at the end of the day total communism is the same as facism-state ownership, dictator, persecution :(

[anto eile]

if you only had a clue what you are on about you wouldnt look so silly , read my post above there are nt asking for money nor is bono sueing her for the lousy 5,000 euro .

bono is in court over the sake of items worth 5000euro.

and i dont like it when priests and preachers preach to me so why would i want rockstars doing so?

saying sommunism doenst work is easy. but look at all the poor capitalist countries.you could easily justify condemning capitalism as a result. its more the peopel running the system , rather than the system itself

[dcfcsteve]

The two most impactful ways to Make Poverty History in Africa would be to make corruption and political ineptitude history.

A lot of African countries have phenomenal natural resources - whether it be oil in Nigeria, wildlife in Kenya/Tanzania, gold in Angola or diamonds in South Africa. Yet, despite having natural wealth that Ireland couldn't even dream of, out of 52 countries there isn't a single success story in Africa. Instead, the countries there are the world's poorest (Mozambique/Zimbabwe) and they're by and large economic failures and political basket cases. A very large part of this is down to endemic corruption and political ineptitude.

Immense sums of money are being generated every single day throughout Africa through its natural resources, yet none of this is going to the ordinary people. That is a sure sign of corruption. The political elite in African nations are responsible for this, and even in the more enlightened countries like South Africa they refuse to do anything about such abuse amongst their neighbours (why won't Mbeki condemn what Mugabe is doing - particularly as a lot of Zimbabwean refugees are creating a social and economic headache for South Africa) ?

African political elites have also proven themselves time and again to be politically inept and/or unconcerned with trying to improve the lot of their people. The BBC did an interesting feature comparing Ghana with Malaysia. Both had the same start in life - becoming independent from England in 1957, when both had roughly the same average per capita income and the same large dominant industry (sugar cane). Fast forward nearly 50 years, and the comparisons are zero. Despite being a relative success case in Africa, Ghana is sh!t poor and has made a ballax of its sugar cane industry - still focusing on small scale inefficient production methods. Malaysia meanwhile has soared economically, is no longer dependent on sugar cane, and has a much more efficient sugar industry anyway. The reason for these differences? Political leadership and policies...

It was once suggested to me that corruption is endemic in African political systems, as a result of the fact that the continent has a tribal culture. Under tribal systems, the tribal chief officially owns everything that his tribe owns. However, the tribal chiefs tend to be genuinely concerned about their people, so ensure that the whole tribe has what it needs from 'his' welath. However - when that same cultural system was transferred to a national scale, the political leaders still acted like tribal chiefs - assuming everything was theirs - but did not have that same connection to the people to give back to them accordingly. Hence - they just take the wealth of the nation for their own small clique, and leave nothing for everyone else.

Initiatives like Live8 are very important, but I honestly believe the focus is wrong. The light needs to be shone on the political systems in Africa, as much as on the debts that are currently owed. The political culture of African nations requires wholesale change. I don't believe that there is any way of handing money over to nations in Africa without corruption kicking-in - it's nigh-on impossible. It is therefore not the people who will be the main beneficiaries from fairer trade and debt relief under the current corrupt systems. But sadly, a campaign entitled 'Make Corruption/Ineptitude History' just wouldn't catch the public's imagination or fill Hyde Park....

[paul_oshea]

dcfcsteve, that is a fair point that you have made, and a well read one also, no arguing with the facts(unless you are JMPlain or conor74). however 34/48 countries that are suffering extreme poverty are not run by corrupt politicians/government, so there is no excuse for not cancelling the debt for these countries, however aid must also increase.


The reason for these differences? Political leadership and policies...

there is more to it than that though steve...
just to add to your 4th paragraph, is that why south africa has been a little bit more of a success story??? I mean im not being racist but the white man being part of this, indirectly has it brought the country further? Also look at india for this, any indian i have asked has been fair in the assessment that the english did rid the country of a lot of the tribal social status power etc.

whatever happens, it is going to be another generation before the countries improve dramatically. as steve pointed out these countries have enough natural resources to remain self sufficient, and that is what they have to try to aim to acheive, self sufficiency, otherwise the problem never goes away and only aid and more aid will stabilise poverty for a given time. i heard the bbc reporter say something similar yesterday, its fine for us to give 5 euro or whatever a month, and yes that feeds a child for a week, however after that 5 is gone they need another $5 to live for the next month, however if these people were able to use this money to grow crops etc, they would feed themselves and have a continuous supply....basically i think the strategy used in aiding these countries needs to be changed so that the people can help themselves, how can we help a nation if that nation cant help itself?????


But sadly, a campaign entitled 'Make Corruption/Ineptitude History' just wouldn't catch the public's imagination or fill Hyde Park....

sadly i think it would fill hyde park, if the lline up was the same. most people were there to see pink floyd or u2 or robbie or the who or whoever. it was lost on a majority id say.... :(

[anto1208]

bono is in court over the sake of items worth 5000euro.

and i dont like it when priests and preachers preach to me so why would i want rockstars doing so?

saying sommunism doenst work is easy. but look at all the poor capitalist countries.you could easily justify condemning capitalism as a result. its more the peopel running the system , rather than the system itself

she wrote a book with a load of lies etc in it to make money of the back of there success , would you let some one that has stabbed you in the back continue to make money of you by selling some thing you gave them as a pressent .

who is preaching to you? , they are asking very nicely for your help to keep pressure on the g8 they arent asking for a penny ,they are just using there status to reach more people , if ann murphy from cork asked no one would hear it wounld nt make the paper but bono and geldof ask and who see what happens .

[patsh]

if ann murphy from cork asked no one would hear it .
Well I've never refused to do anything Ann Murphy asked of me!.....:D

[dcfcsteve]

Well I've never refused to do anything Ann Murphy asked of me!.....:D

I have ! Euuuchh - she's one sick sheila.......! :D

[Peadar]

she's one sick sheila.......! :D

No, no Steve, Sheila is the sister. :D

[dcfcsteve]

No, no Steve, Sheila is the sister. :D

I know - Ann was trying to get whole family involved.....! :eek:

[Lionel Ritchie]

I'm on about the Make Poverty History thing in the top right corner.
Whilst it's all very fashionable to get behind Geldof and Co., I fail to see how a bunch of rich people complaining about another bunch of rich people will actually make an ounce of difference to poverty in Africa or anywhere else in the world.
Call me a cynic, but what's going to happen with all the money from the extra album sales these fellas make?
Anyone else feel slightly uneasy about the whole campaign? Seems to me to have been manipulated by a group of rich ****s for their own personal gain.
Noticed today that the London Times is supporting the campaign. Guess who owns the paper......Rupert Murdoch. :rolleyes:

I'd share some of your concerns Brendy. I think what Geldof is trying to achieve is noble and his motivation is beyond reproach. But I can't help but feel that this is a first world, middle class love-in where people wave their glo-sticks and satiate their conscience that they've 'done their bit' to wipe out poverty.
Yet -while we're told 3 billion watched some bit of this concert -only a small fraction of that number bothered to sign the petition.
Also -about half the people attending those concerts won't vote AT ALL -out of choice -in their countries elections and of the half that do vote -most will vote for candidates and parties whose policies are in direct head on conflict with the objectives or aims of Live8.

So I hope I'm wrong but -I think the greatest good that'll come out of it might be a Pink Floyd re-union.

[patsh]

I would be very supportive of Geldof and Bono, and feel that the vast majority of the people involved are there for the right reasons, but outside of this being a massive concert, what else will come of it?

They have spoken about raising consciousness, but will the young people of America really ignore the Democratic/Republican choice at the next election and ensure the election of someone like Ralph Nader?
Will Blair/whatever tosser the Tories put up/Kennedy be ignored and some radical aparty believeing in justice for all get into power?
Will something like this happen in ANY country??

I can't see it, and I realise that we shouldn't stop trying, but I think the answer has been given already by the massive security in Scotland which is there by the order of Goverment to suppress, stop and contain any free expression of what we all were supposed to be showing support for last Saturday.