To super league or to not super league ...

[SeanDrog]

I couldn’t see another appropriate forum in the long long long list .. so here looks as good as any as in theory it does affect us given we would be excluded from this league :)

So how do ppl think this will pan out, the threat of being thrown out of domestic leagues and players being banned from UEFA and FIFA competitions/leagues looks a serious threat but at the same time these clubs look to be ploughing ahead.

[pineapple stu]

Was just going to start a thread here as well. World League football may be the relevant subforum, but this surely has implications for the LoI as well.

I don't see clubs being kicked out of domestic leagues, but it's a major game of chicken in fairness, and there's some fairly major bodies coming out with statements (Downing Street, UEFA, the Premier League, Bray Wanderers), so it has to have some substance.

The question is whether teams who up to now are winning most of their games will be happy being mid-table and lower. Will the Asian merchandise sales stack up? Or will the money from the super league negate all that?

I think from the LoI's point of view, it seems Dundalk in 2016 was the best and last chance we'll ever have of a CL group stage spot. The flip side is will this start disenfranchising Irish Premier League fans sufficiently for them to start seeing the LoI as a more down-to-earth option; what the English First Division used to be?

[SeanDrog]

Was just going to start a thread here as well. World League football may be the relevant subforum, but this surely has implications for the LoI as well.

I don't see clubs being kicked out of domestic leagues, but it's a major game of chicken in fairness, and there's some fairly major bodies coming out with statements (Downing Street, UEFA, the Premier League, Bray Wanderers), so it has to have some substance.

The question is whether teams who up to now are winning most of their games will be happy being mid-table and lower. Will the Asian merchandise sales stack up? Or will the money from the super league negate all that?

I think from the LoI's point of view, it seems Dundalk in 2016 was the best and last chance we'll ever have of a CL group stage spot. The flip side is will this start disenfranchising Irish Premier League fans sufficiently for them to start seeing the LoI as a more down-to-earth option; what the English First Division used to be?


Bray :) yep saw their tweet.

Very interesting question you raise regarding would this (if it went ahead) actually help our league if people did some soul searching and ended up wanting to return to grass roots tanglible football, going to games were you feel a real belonging rather than just a brand.

[sbgawa]

If it happens and the big 6 leave the Premier league the knock ons become inevitable.
Premier league will need to replace the 6 and with National boundaries proving irrelevant id expect Rangers and Celtic to be inviited to join as one distinct possibility.
AIL maybe with rump scotish league, anything is possible if a superleague hapens, i expect FIFA to try to squash it but with threats of european law retraint of trade etc from the breakaways UEFA will cave and allocate more money to Champions league (particularly at top end) and less to EL1 and EL2 rather than have an actual breakaway

[pineapple stu]

FIFA are supporting it. Do you mean UEFA?

But yeah, it does sound like it'd be a complete gamechanger and anything'd be possible afterwards.

[sbgawa]

FIFA are supporting it. Do you mean UEFA?

But yeah, it does sound like it'd be a complete gamechanger and anything'd be possible afterwards.

FIFA are against it , sayyg international teams wont be able to call up players from a breakaway league

[pineapple stu]

You're right actually. That's good at least.

But even if it is a game of chicken to get more guarantees for big clubs in the CL (like the proposed new format offers), you wonder what club football will look like in 20 years' time. Is this kind of thing inevitable? Or will football destroy itself first?

[redobit]

I know the Bray and Harps 'statements' are a bit of craic but I find them pure cringe too. Fair argument that it brings attention to a club and LOI but its just about getting a quick few thumbs up, likes and shares. Much prefer to see someting productive about them being a community club and connection with fans.

[sbgawa]

Inevitable i reckon.
If i was to guess in 20 years the English / scotish/ welsh / irish leagues will be one overall league with the teams playing at whatever llevel they can, with regional leagues like National league south and North in England currently

[nigel-harps1954]

I know the Bray and Harps 'statements' are a bit of craic but I find them pure cringe too. Fair argument that it brings attention to a club and LOI but its just about getting a quick few thumbs up, likes and shares. Much prefer to see someting productive about them being a community club and connection with fans.

No clubs are allowed to have any craic.

[LOI101]

I got thinking about this from an loi point of view earlier. Will an All Ireland league be our equivalent? Haven’t some of the proposals involved x amount of teams from the north and y amount of teams from the south? Will other clubs be left behind?

[Bucket]

These top clubs won't be leaving the Premier League. The Super League will be played midweek

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

I got thinking about this from an loi point of view earlier. Will an All Ireland league be our equivalent? Haven’t some of the proposals involved x amount of teams from the north and y amount of teams from the south? Will other clubs be left behind?

If and when it does happen there won’t be a rule written in saying for example that Linfield and Shams cannot be relegated. At least there better not be.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

These top clubs won't be leaving the Premier League. The Super League will be played midweek

Be surprised if it happens at all

[Bucket]

Ya me too. Some sort of compromise with an even more exclusive Champions League probably

[redobit]

No clubs are allowed to have any craic.

Whatever floats your boat but personally I think Harps are better than that.

Act like you expect to be treated. Watched the McLoone man speaking about the new harps stadium ... really impressive. Now that would have been a proper response to all this super league crap.

[Bucket]

Every small club in Europe tweeted the same thing. Not as bad as Cork and Legia a few years ago

[BonnieShels]

You're right actually. That's good at least.

But even if it is a game of chicken to get more guarantees for big clubs in the CL (like the proposed new format offers), you wonder what club football will look like in 20 years' time. Is this kind of thing inevitable? Or will football destroy itself first?

It's a massive pyramid scheme and this is the latest rush to make a new peak for the pyramid. Promises that this safeguards the game and that money will trickle down is pure tosh. No relegation from this pox of a tournament as well.

I would love the EPL, Serie A, La Liga and the FAs to go to town on them and relegate all of the clubs involved. Dock points etc.

Honestly, even with how Intl soccer has gone the last while I've been finding it harder and harder to care about the sport overall. I still engage with Ireland and Shels etc but the bigger picture no longer concerns me as clearly, we're not going to be part of it.

[sidewayspasser]

The threat of a super league has been brought up regularly since the mid 90s, usually at times when UEFA discussed and decided on changes to their competitions. It has been used as an instrument to bully UEFA into changes in favour of the big guys. So I'm not sure whether it will ever happen, or whether it's just kept hanging around as a threat so that the Champions League will eventually be shaped into that super league.

If the breakaway super league does happen though, I hope UEFA, FIFA and the national leagues/associations have the balls to follow up and exclude the clubs and players from all other competitions.

[CorribsideSteve]

I know the Bray and Harps 'statements' are a bit of craic but I find them pure cringe too. Fair argument that it brings attention to a club and LOI but its just about getting a quick few thumbs up, likes and shares. Much prefer to see someting productive about them being a community club and connection with fans.
Same here. I was expecting an additional facebook style "Marked safe and sound from Super League" statement.

[Kiki Balboa]

Forgetting about sporting integrity and morals, heres My two cents:

Early feeling is that the clubs have 'shot their load' too early. Everyone in the game between politicans to broadcasters to fans to football associations are against it. They have no public backing. Seems a very strategic mistake, there is just a wave of negetivity. By the time it starts (which we assume now is next september), the clubs will be in massive legl fights, Government possibly passing legislation against it , and months of propaganda from Sky and BT sports (who dont have the rights) against it.

The competition has no tradition or integrity. Thats a mountain for any new tournament to overcome.

As for going for emerging markets in India and China, having spent time in those countries, I think its fair to say that their sports culture works very differently to ours. I lived in Korea and travelled a bit, it was very rare to see any sports jerseys on kids (esp non local ones from high-schools). Football was always on t.v but was never a topic of conversation. At most, people were concerned with national team. These are super compeitive cultures (esp for children), there isnt much room to following sport teams from another continant for kids. Its not like Asian countires are having a massive baby boom either, and their populations are getting older. I just dont see the massive expansion for Super league clubs from the market. The only option is compete for a 'slice of the pie' of the English, Italian and Spanish leagues.I just dont see any inovation. Everyone has no option but to fight tooth and nail against it.

(Obv, preaching to the choir here.... it also just seems boring..)

[pineapple stu]

You wonder where Dublin Dons fit into the evolving story of football.

It's 30 years now since the CL came into being and the game has changed hugely since then. OK, the same clubs are still there (more or less), but it's far less competitive and merging national leagues is now starting to properly be talked about.

Where will it be in 30 years? Why shouldn't some rich American investor corp look to start a Dublin team playing out of Lansdowne Road in a franchise-based Atlantic League at some stage in the future? What would that mean for the LoI?

[John83]

Where will it be in 30 years? Why shouldn't some rich American investor corp look to start a Dublin team playing out of Lansdowne Road in a franchise-based Atlantic League at some stage in the future? What would that mean for the LoI?
If that model beds in, it'll presumably hurt most leagues. The LoI might buck that trend by virtue of already being so ****e that it can hardly get worse.

[Mr A]

Whatever floats your boat but personally I think Harps are better than that.

Act like you expect to be treated. Watched the McLoone man speaking about the new harps stadium ... really impressive. Now that would have been a proper response to all this super league crap.

We communicate the community and volunteer aspects of the club constantly. There's no harm breaking it up with the odd bit of humour or opportunism, especially when the club tends to get relatively little coverage nationally so a bit of sark / attitude is justified too, but I totally get you have to be careful as well. When we have no shirt sponsor it's worth it to take an opportunistic one when it pops up- nice engagement numbers to show anyone interested in coming aboard.

[EatYerGreens]

The flip side is will this start disenfranchising Irish Premier League fans sufficiently for them to start seeing the LoI as a more down-to-earth option; what the English First Division used to be?

The problem here is that for a section of supporters in the north opposition to an all-island league isn't just about football. There are many there who will oppose it no matter what was involved, as it doesn't fit a world view in which they want the north to remain separate from the south in every way possible. You only have to look at their apocalyptic view of the Brexit Protocol, which actually gives NI a unique economic opportunity that places like Scotland would love, to understand that it would never be viewed solely through a footballing prism.

[EatYerGreens]

I don't expect this Super League to happen. It's just bullying tactics by the clubs. They've tried everything else up to now bar this, so have to ramp up the pressure to prove they're serious. A compromise will be reached in which they'll carve off yet another pound of flesh from the heart of football for themselves to gorge on. Until eventually of course the game has no heart left.

[pineapple stu]

The problem here is that for a section of supporters in the north opposition to an all-island league isn't just about football. There are many there who will oppose it no matter what was involved, as it doesn't fit a world view in which they want the north to remain separate from the south in every way possible. You only have to look at their apocalyptic view of the Brexit Protocol, which actually gives NI a unique economic opportunity that places like Scotland would love, to understand that it would never be viewed solely through a footballing prism.
I meant fans of the Premier League (Liverpool, Man Utd, etc) in Ireland, not fans of the Irish League.

[sbgawa]

Id say the Irish barstoolers would be happy enough to see their team playing in a SL from their spot on the couch.
The odd trip away on a slightly longer flight isnt really an issue.
If you live locally and only go to home matches then having AC Milan rock up instead of Burnley isnt a problem , the hard core fans that go to the away matches would be the big losers as it will become impossible economically.
I dont think it will happen UEFA will cave and guarantee spots for big clubs in the CL rather than have a breakaway.

[EatYerGreens]

I meant fans of the Premier League (Liverpool, Man Utd, etc) in Ireland, not fans of the Irish League.

The Super League is all about people like that though.

It's for those 'fans' around the world who eschew their own domestic football to steal the reflected glory from a manufactured connection to 'their' team in a foreign county (with the focus of football firmly on such followers in Asia, Africa and the US these days, rather than the likes of Ireland and Norway). They're not going to suddenly grow a conscience because a mid-week League Cup game against Wycombe Wanderers has been swapped out of the calendar in favour of a Super League fixture against Barcelona. They're the very clapping seals that the fish are being throw to by the big clubs. And the vast majority will continue to lap it up.

[Dalymountrower]

Id say the Irish barstoolers would be happy enough to see their team playing in a SL from their spot on the couch.
The odd trip away on a slightly longer flight isnt really an issue.
If you live locally and only go to home matches then having AC Milan rock up instead of Burnley isnt a problem , the hard core fans that go to the away matches would be the big losers as it will become impossible economically.
I dont think it will happen UEFA will cave and guarantee spots for big clubs in the CL rather than have a breakaway.

Apparently JP Morgan in their business case referred to actual football club fans as " legacy fans".

From their experiences during Covid, the secessionist confederate clubs have realised that they don`t need fans in stadia to make money from TV rights, sponsorship and merchandise . Blue screen stadia with projected crowd atmosphere is where they see the future.
Kind of surprising that they have so openly revealed themselves to be so unashamedly greedy.
Still chuckling at Spurs self declaring themselves as a dominant European club. Clearly encouraging early results from that re-animation project using Danny Blanchflower and Jimmy Greaves DNA,

[pineapple stu]

The Super League is all about people like that though.

It's for those 'fans' around the world who eschew their own domestic football to steal the reflected glory from a manufactured connection to 'their' team in a foreign county. And the vast majority will continue to lap it up.
Yes, but "the vast majority" still leaves for plenty of scope for the LoI to pick up a good few drop-offs. You can't generalise about an entire group of people the way you're doing.

[sbgawa]

"legacy fans" that's an excellent insight into how they perceive the fans.
Small numbers when you consider the worldwide audience.
Plus everyone is kidding themselves if they think that people wont turn up to watch Liverpool v Barcelona.
For most of these clubs playing in front of full houses for most big games the hardcore/legacy fans can probably be replaced with more event junkies.

[EatYerGreens]

"legacy fans" that's an excellent insight into how they perceive the fans.
Small numbers when you consider the worldwide audience.
Plus everyone is kidding themselves if they think that people wont turn up to watch Liverpool v Barcelona.
For most of these clubs playing in front of full houses for most big games the hardcore/legacy fans can probably be replaced with more event junkies.

This is part of why a lot of clubs went with formalised ticket resale schemes for when season ticket holders couldn't use their seat. An empty seat represents lost income beyond the already-naked ticket money. And they realised that the casual attendees were spending significantly more at an average game than the season ticket holders were, who don't need to buy merchandise etc on every single visit.

[osarusan]

My first thought was that it was bluffing to get a greater share of the CL pie, but with UEFA just releasing their new revamped CL structure (which looks bloody awful), it isn't that I suppose.

UEFA already threatening players with bans from World Cup and Euro championships. It seems like everybody is going to come out against this hard and fast with the hope that the clubs just back down.

A period of real brinkmanship could be on the cards.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Do UEFA/national leagues have the right to expel teams from their competitions over this? I imagine that's a legal quagmire. Same with the internationals issue. Are the English FA really going to show solidarity when FIFA/UEFA gut their national side?

And it isn't like the FA's, their sponsors and various broadcast partners will actually want expel anyone either.

The new CPL proposals do look dreadful, which is an under-noticed aspect of all this. Don't really see what kind of compromise could be reached at this point.

[Bucket]

There seems to be a lot of lads tweeting LOI clubs saying that they'll start supporting them now. England's difficulties are Irelands opportunities!

[osarusan]

I'm wondering what would happen if the EPL decided to expel the 'big 6' from the premier league starting from next season.

[TonyD]

Do UEFA/national leagues have the right to expel teams from their competitions over this? I imagine that's a legal quagmire. .

Just on this. Struck me earlier that if it were to go the legal route and clubs challenge any exclusions from their own leagues, presumably they’d be using eu competition law ? (A la the Bosman case for example) But guess who is not subject to EU law anymore, thanks to Brexit :cool:

I really hope, if it happens, that the National FAs have the balls to throw those clubs out of their leagues. I’ve heard a lot of comment this morning that the league needs the clubs more than the clubs need the league. I’m not so sure. How will Arsenal or Spurs fans feel after a few seasons finishing in or around the bottom of this new league, with no other trophies to play for ? Even if they do better than that, and say, finish 5th or 6th, well really, who cares.

As a Pats supporter with only a passing interest in the English game now, I can’t say that it exercises me greatly. Our local teams will in all likelihood remain where they always were, but at least I can have realistic dreams of league titles and FAI cups (well one every fifty years at least :D)

[TonyD]

There seems to be a lot of lads tweeting LOI clubs saying that they'll start supporting them now. England's difficulties are Irelands opportunities!

I won’t be holding my breath waiting for that tbh.

[sbgawa]

This will impact all European leagues.
UEFA get big money from TV companies because the CL and EL have big clubs in them.
If UEFA dont have the big bucks the money for EL etc will likely fall.
If European money becomes much smaller it will undermine those clubs that are paying big wages on the basis of regular CL /EL money.
At a local level taking the LOI if the prize for winning the league is buttons and European money is reduced it will have to have an impact on playing budgets.

[Poor Student]

This is a move driven by risk mitigation. The owners of these clubs do not like variability and volatility to the income streams of their business based on qualification for Europe. Their only concern is whether this can be pulled off with the revenue streams they envision. The IPL cricket franchise system would suggest to me you can fabricate something immensely popular and successful from zero tradition if you package it well enough.

I'd agree with John83 in that the LOI is in such a bad position this doesn't even reverberate. It's like a human watching the Titans and the gods battling it out.

[Straightstory]

This is PERFECT for (Irish) barstoolers. Too many teams, though. I'd just have Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal and Real Madrid. Play each other forty times a season, and whoever makes the biggest financial profit through TV deals, merchandising and sponsorship wins.

[SeanDrog]

I'd agree with John83 in that the LOI is in such a bad position this doesn't even reverberate. It's like a human watching the Titans and the gods battling it out.

I like that description, hope you don’t mind me borrowing it.

[pineapple stu]

This will impact all European leagues.
UEFA get big money from TV companies because the CL and EL have big clubs in them.
If UEFA dont have the big bucks the money for EL etc will likely fall.
If European money becomes much smaller it will undermine those clubs that are paying big wages on the basis of regular CL /EL money.
At a local level taking the LOI if the prize for winning the league is buttons and European money is reduced it will have to have an impact on playing budgets.

Don't forget UEFA Solidarity income across top flight clubs too. Not sure how much it is these days, but E20k when you're down the bottom of the Premier will pay a few bills.

[TonyD]

This is PERFECT for (Irish) barstoolers. Too many teams, though. I'd just have Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal and Real Madrid. Play each other forty times a season, and whoever makes the biggest financial profit through TV deals, merchandising and sponsorship wins.

Gives a new twist to the old “can we play you every week ?” Chant. In the future you may well be doing so. I sincerely hope the money men are overestimating the appetite for this, and that the novelty will wear thin pretty quickly. It’s a hope rather than an expectation though, sadly.

[sbgawa]

If u ask.a typical pool or utd fan outside of the UK who they would rather watch play their team real Madrid or Burnley u can figure out pretty quickly the super league if it happens will be a huge success money wise.

[blueblood]

Unfortunately if the 6 Nations works this will probably work too, never could understand egg chaser fans getting excited when they play the same 5 teams every year but people don't seem to mind that as long as they chance of winning something

[Mr A]

If the Premier League kick the big six out we should immediately invite them to the #GreatestLeagueInTheWorld. Packed houses every week. The Irish football public would go mental for it.

[Kiki Balboa]

Unfortunately if the 6 Nations works this will probably work too, never could understand egg chaser fans getting excited when they play the same 5 teams every year but people don't seem to mind that as long as they chance of winning something

6 nations is a fairly perfect tournament. Nations (ie everybody can get behind) playing against close rivals in Feburary (normally a lull in every other sport). Only 5 games, so every game matters. Can easily sell out stadiums because its only two or three games a year (short supply)

Asking anymore, people would get bored.

[EatYerGreens]

There seems to be a lot of lads tweeting LOI clubs saying that they'll start supporting them now. England's difficulties are Irelands opportunities!

Yeah - they'll start supporting them either in their holes or from the comfort of their own sofas.