Irish Youth Development Structures

[Kiki Balboa]

I hope this is the right place for this. ..... But where did it go wrong....

I guess, like many, I am fairly devestated with the loss to Luxembourg. We were awful, and it didnt seem it was for the lack of trying. The talent just wasn't there. For me, the young players coming through won't bring us to a higher standard than we were 5 years ago (which was already low).

While its good that we have some young players coming through, I get the feeling its youth for the sake of youth. Its not their talent that got them into the squad, rather we had no other option (Parrot and Coventry have no where near the experience to be in a competitive naional team). It feels like as every other country is making progress we are really standing still.

Stephen Kenny staying or leaving is really a moot point. I am a big fan of Kenny, but this stick of 'developing a system' doesnt make any sense to me, because simply it doesnt really matter because the players arent here. In a similar vain, reaplacing him wont make much of a difference.

One person who needs to be gone is Ruud Dokter. He is in the job 10 years, and every year we get less competitve. When he first started, his ideas were already antiquated. The Dutch were already moving off ideas (like tactics, methods) like his when he started with the FAI. ETP teams have not worked. While maybe the idea was okay and soon became just a clone of the old schoolboy representative system. We are a small football association, with a history of giving massive contracts for little more than part-time work. Much of the coaching staff need to be double jobbing within the FAI. Why pay Robbie Keane (who also is able to work in England) and Ruud Dokter massive wages, when their jobs should be done by one person (like in the Welsh FA).

The only progress I see is LOI national youth leagues. Rovers, Pats and Bohs are doing great academy work. But their are issues here too. Missing U-14 and U-16 teams cause dysfunction in trying to bring through teams, and the gap between u19 to Senior is way to large. But at least this system allows for development from youth to senior football.

I have some suggestions, 1) All LOI teams need to have profesional coaches training their youth teams. This is unfeesible for many LOI clubs, so it has to be directly funded by the FAI. The FAI has regional develpoment officers, but their roles have to change. Baiscally, the aim of getting the best youth players the best coaching as possible (in a systematic way )(or Have a national academy like Georges Park in England...)

2) Developing 5-a side football. 5 a side is already culturally built in the country. Develop it for schoolboy football, codify it, and play leagues or blitzs in the off season, as it needs less players and less training. Baiscally a way to encourge all youth to play more football.

3) Decrease the cost of doing badges. Run more courses. Effort into developing coaching as much as players.

Apart from wanting to Rant, I want to know other opinions on where we are going right/wrong, and other suggestions that need to be done. I cant see us being competitive for 10 years. The FAI is on the verge of killing the game in Ireland.

[pineapple stu]

Good post. Important topic too. One comment though -


1) All LOI teams need to have profesional coaches training their youth teams. This is unfeesible for many LOI clubs, so it has to be directly funded by the FAI.
I'm always wary of blanket suggestions like this. The FAI are broke. Are professional coaches really add that much that they're essential? What about appropriately-qualified part-time or volunteer coaches?

Also, there's only so many players the few LoI clubs can coach. The focus needs to be much broader.

I think the issues go way beyond the LoI. Miguel Delaney (https://migueldelaney.com/2014/10/08/the-kids-arent-alright-the-real-problem-with-irish-football-part-one/)'s article on Irish football a few years back was fairly damning and I'd say very little has changed. The SFAI saying "What the **** would they know about Irish football?” when Ruud suggested they start bringing in continental ways of coaching. I don't think any changes to pitch size have been brought in at any level for example? There's no coherent pyramid. There's no clear path for progression. There's an absurd amount of politicking and backstabbing. The whole thing needs a root and branch reform. Starting with ****ing out anyone in the SFAI who has blocked progress in the past decade. (I know that's all very idealistic and the practicalities of it would be much more difficult of course)

In a way, the Luxembourg defeat was good in that it got people starting to talk about the issues we're facing. Maybe it's the rock bottom moment that starts to get people noticing there's a problem. "Kenny paying the price for 'mismanagement and neglect' (https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2021/0328/1206643-kenny-paying-the-price-for-management-and-neglect/)" was the headline on RTÉ the day after the game for example - and it's right. He is. He may also not be up to the role, but the article makes valid points that have been glossed over for too long.

But if we fix everything overnight, then we're still looking at a ten-year wait until players start coming through under a new system. That's ten years of probably hopping between fourth and fifth seeds.

The other thing people need to start doing is supporting the LoI. They can still support Premier League teams as well of course - but if the general public is going to ignore the LoI en masse as it currently does, then it'll have no money to develop players - and so the team will continue to struggle.

[Kiki Balboa]

Good post. Important topic too. One comment though -


I'm always wary of blanket suggestions like this. The FAI are broke. Are professional coaches really add that much that they're essential? What about appropriately-qualified part-time or volunteer coaches?.

I would take that point. I think my writing style was putting on extra emphasis for extra effect. What a mean is the FAI need to take a much greater role in developing players, and one of the ways is getting extra resources to LOI clubs and taking extra responsibility to devlop them. Its vitally important to set high standards in our youth football.

Maybe certain clubs can be chosen for extra benefits like the Tier Academy system they have in England, where FAI can put extra resources into LOI clubs that put their own resources into their academies.

[pineapple stu]

I would take that point. I think my writing style was putting on extra emphasis for extra effect.
Yeah, that's fair. And I agree with your post by and large alright; I certainly wasn't trying to dismiss it by picking on one item.

Meanwhile though, our esteemed Senators Regina Doherty and Robbie Gallagher (https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/ireland-too-small-for-two-soccer-teams-and-should-be-all-island-side-ff-senator-1.4522867) think that the issue is one of population. We need to merge with the North as we can't compete with our small population. Tell that to Croatia. Or Luxembourg...

[lofty9]

Good thread. From a nordy perspective and for the benefit of my brethern developing players for their rightful switch to FAI ...

What's a professional coach? One that gets paid over x amount? At Derry, we have mostly ex professional footballers mixed with some career coaches as I'd call them. We produced more players over the past 15 years to go to England and Scotland without these professionals. I've been told it's costing 250k to run this per year, out of our chairmans pocket. I'm not sure how other LOI clubs can manage this. Before all this, we had two proper football men who played for the club , built meaningful networks with Donegal and the surrounding areas and created an environment without kicking the grassroot clubs. Both put to pasture by McCourt and the new LOI academy structure. Finn Harps have been the benficiaries of our new professional set up as these pro's dont go watch players. At youth level in the city, we are in an unusual position in that our grassroot underage teams don't need the LOI to help develop our players, which is good for the overall picture, it helps develop other/more players. We have our Youth National League with NIBFA which players from the city play each year U12 - U18 against Linfield , Glentoran , Cliftonville etc so they don't miss out at U14 and U16. This has definitely hepled develop kids at our club who have made careers in LOI , Irish League and our latest two hopefully to break into their EPL teams.

[Insidetherock]

complete sea changes need to be made not just at a football level, but right down to a societal level.

People don't even get how political decisions impact in the long term. For example, changing the provision of public housing from local authorities to private ownership. In just one generation, this change has increased house prices, and subsequently reduced family sizes, meaning there are less young players to choose from, because they are simply not being born.

Then you have the "commodification of play time".. play dates for example, where two or more parents arrange a time and date, to "allow" children play together. Usually at a purpose built playground or increasingly at indoor venues like cinemas and play centres. Then keeping children apart from playing together until the following week.

The compensation culture in schools, which have stopped children as much as running in schoolyard. Too many schools are now like prisons, where "playtime" consists of standing around talking or walking in a circle around a yard.

How many people discuss these issues when they think about football development? Its all coaches, academies, systems, philosophies

We're living increasingly in a country where fewer children are being born, where casual large group play is discouraged, and where those children that are born are increasingly struggling with basic motor skills of running, jumping, falling properly, leaping, climbing, side stepping

That's the root of the problem

[Insidetherock]

A quick example of this. This morning I was off work, so went for a walk with the other half, around a walking track in the local village.

Smashing development just build. Has a full sized GAA pitch, full sized soccer pitch, full sized astro pitch.

Anyway, as I'm walking around, I notice about three more couples walking, and about six kids at one of the soccer goals, taking shots. While we were there (about 40 mins), the kids ran up and down the pitch, tackled each other, generally just play acting having fun.

But soon as one couple of women finished her walk, she headed for home, and called the children away. Problem for me was, home was the estate next door to the pitch. Literally fifty yards from the pitch to the front door. But Mammy called the kids in.. likely to sit down, watch TV, play video games whatever.

As is any parents perogative. They need to feel their kids are safe. On the other hand, if that facility had been built 25 yrs ago, you wouldn't have been able to drag the 40-50 youngsters from the estate.

The hurling and soccer pitches would be going full time, and we'd have been climbing over the ten foot high fence into the astro.

When did we get so scared to play?

[Kiki Balboa]

Actually its a great time for make huge changes to the FAI, as Brexit is going to further completly change the youth development landscape.

On a seperate, but also important note. One of things that is hurting us now is the lack of any decent English born players. Imagine if you added Grealish, Rice and Bamford to that Irish team that played vs Lux, the difference it would have made. For generations, the granny rule papered over the cracks of our broken system here, but now it seems to have run out....

The time is now for a raft of major changes.

[elatedscum]

Actually its a great time for make huge changes to the FAI, as Brexit is going to further completly change the youth development landscape.

On a seperate, but also important note. One of things that is hurting us now is the lack of any decent English born players. Imagine if you added Grealish, Rice and Bamford to that Irish team that played vs Lux, the difference it would have made. For generations, the granny rule papered over the cracks of our broken system here, but now it seems to have run out....

The time is now for a raft of major changes.

Someone i respect hugely said to me recently that he felt the end of the troubles and the good friday agreement has as a byproduct cost us tonnes of players, and largely eroded national identity amongst the second and third generation irish in england. as in, as long as you were persecuted in england for your name or your parents accent, there was an enforced sense of otherness and a separate identity to cling on to. thought it was an interesting idea...

i know there are people on here who would have a far better sense than i would, but you can certainly imagine that if rice or grealish grew up in the troubles, they would have been less likely to play for england...

[Stuttgart88]

The FA are keeping a very close eye on any anglos playing for us and are quick to pounce if any of them is any good. They're almost happy for us to do their groundwork for them. I also think the Irish immigrant connection isn't as strong as it used to be. Irish pubs, Irish centres etc are all closing down. The biggest mass attendees around my way are now west African.

I think there's something in the societal point above but the same changes have been evident everywhere and other countries have copped themselves on and built good structures and pathways.

I think public policy in relation to sport is a key factor. Since the establishment of the State sport policy was outsourced to the GAA. Like the Church, the GAA was essentially an arm of the government.

Any economists will recognise the term "public good". A public good is something like fresh air. You can't assign property rights to it so it won't be provided by the private sector motivated by profit. Two features that define a public good are non-excludability and non-rivalry. This means that if a good is available to one, it must be available to all, and that if a public good is consumed, its supply remains unchanged. I can buy an apple and have it myself and if I eat it it's gone. That's a private good. If there is fresh air it is available to all of us and if I breathe some in it doesn't reduce supply for others. In economics public goods are associated with "free riders", people who profit from the good's availability without paying for its use. Think of a firm polluting the air we breathe without paying a carbon tax, for example.

What other examples of public goods are there? These can be debated but intangible things like law & order, education, healthcare, social justice, national defence, a culture of R&D are usually offered as good examples.

For me, a successful national football team / successful national football system is a public good. A fully functional sports culture certainly is. This may draw ridicule but I really think so. My enjoyment of it is not at the expense of anyone else's enjoyment of it, we can share it. My enjoying it doesn't reduce the supply of it. The benefits are enjoyed by many. The benefits are often tangible: health & crime for example. Italia 90 had many intangible benefits such as national self-esteem and confidence to dream big on many fronts.

Because of the free rider effect private agents won't pay for it. The returns don't accrue directly to the investor / purchaser. Therefore the effective provision of any public good must be the responsibility of the public sector and/or the voluntary sector. Now of course in football there is ample scope for private investment (or philanthropy) but on a systemic basis it can't succeed without public investment. There's already plenty of voluntary participation but that clearly isn't enough.

There's a fine line between public sector assistance and government interference in a national association according to FIFA rules. But that's to stop dictators taking over FAs and running them by decree. In our case, an insolvent dysfunctional association could easily be rescued by the State contingent on root & branch reform, and this can easily be done at arm's length to satisfy FIFA.

We've discussed the white water rafting debacle already. We've also discussed running tracks in Dublin (using Dublin as an example of a big population centre). Where I live in NW London there are 3 within 2 miles and I think 11 within 5 miles of where I live. One of these, a municipal track, would have almost as much spectator capacity as Santry, and is a lot more modern.

But football's interaction with government has been pathetic. Even greyhounds get the kind of investment that would be a game changer for football. I was in the Poznan Sheraton the night we lost to Croatia, In the bar was Denis o'Brien, a few TDs, a few well-known Dublin bankers and developers, and Michael D and his wife. All there to enjoy the party but bar moral support from Michael D and financial support from O'Brien I'd say not one of them saw the big picture - that for this to be a frequent thing the game needs help, and the game can only get help if there's culture of investing in sport. But in Ireland that's the GAA's job.

[sbgawa]

LOI underage leagues have gone to U14, U15 U17 U 19 for this year.
I think the plan is to maybe put in a 16s next year so that would address the continuity issue.
I would disagree 100% with getting rid of Ruud Dokter he is only really getting to implement his ideas in the last few years as Delaney allowed the DDSL a blocking brief against starting down at u13.
You only have to look at what the DDSL did (reverting to winter soccer) once Delaney gate started and the FAI were distracted which went 100% against the governing bodies policy.
All the talk about FAI governance etc the dinosaurs running the DDSL (remember a few months ago they decided under 12's would be on full size pitches ) should be routed out ASAP , hopefully the new FAI board will do that.

[Insidetherock]

The FA are keeping a very close eye on any anglos playing for us and are quick to pounce if any of them is any good. They're almost happy for us to do their groundwork for them. I also think the Irish immigrant connection isn't as strong as it used to be. Irish pubs, Irish centres etc are all closing down. The biggest mass attendees around my way are now west African.

I think there's something in the societal point above but the same changes have been evident everywhere and other countries have copped themselves on and built good structures and pathways.

I think public policy in relation to sport is a key factor. Since the establishment of the State sport policy was outsourced to the GAA. Like the Church, the GAA was essentially an arm of the government.

Any economists will recognise the term "public good". A public good is something like fresh air. You can't assign property rights to it so it won't be provided by the private sector motivated by profit. Two features that define a public good are non-excludability and non-rivalry. This means that if a good is available to one, it must be available to all, and that if a public good is consumed, its supply remains unchanged. I can buy an apple and have it myself and if I eat it it's gone. That's a private good. If there is fresh air it is available to all of us and if I breathe some in it doesn't reduce supply for others. In economics public goods are associated with "free riders", people who profit from the good's availability without paying for its use. Think of a firm polluting the air we breathe without paying a carbon tax, for example.

What other examples of public goods are there? These can be debated but intangible things like law & order, education, healthcare, social justice, national defence, a culture of R&D are usually offered as good examples.

For me, a successful national football team / successful national football system is a public good. A fully functional sports culture certainly is. This may draw ridicule but I really think so. My enjoyment of it is not at the expense of anyone else's enjoyment of it, we can share it. My enjoying it doesn't reduce the supply of it. The benefits are enjoyed by many. The benefits are often tangible: health & crime for example. Italia 90 had many intangible benefits such as national self-esteem and confidence to dream big on many fronts.

Because of the free rider effect private agents won't pay for it. The returns don't accrue directly to the investor / purchaser. Therefore the effective provision of any public good must be the responsibility of the public sector and/or the voluntary sector. Now of course in football there is ample scope for private investment (or philanthropy) but on a systemic basis it can't succeed without public investment. There's already plenty of voluntary participation but that clearly isn't enough.

There's a fine line between public sector assistance and government interference in a national association according to FIFA rules. But that's to stop dictators taking over FAs and running them by decree. In our case, an insolvent dysfunctional association could easily be rescued by the State contingent on root & branch reform, and this can easily be done at arm's length to satisfy FIFA.

We've discussed the white water rafting debacle already. We've also discussed running tracks in Dublin (using Dublin as an example of a big population centre). Where I live in NW London there are 3 within 2 miles and I think 11 within 5 miles of where I live. One of these, a municipal track, would have almost as much spectator capacity as Santry, and is a lot more modern.

But football's interaction with government has been pathetic. Even greyhounds get the kind of investment that would be a game changer for football. I was in the Poznan Sheraton the night we lost to Croatia, In the bar was Denis o'Brien, a few TDs, a few well-known Dublin bankers and developers, and Michael D and his wife. All there to enjoy the party but bar moral support from Michael D and financial support from O'Brien I'd say not one of them saw the big picture - that for this to be a frequent thing the game needs help, and the game can only get help if there's culture of investing in sport. But in Ireland that's the GAA's job.

Brilliant post.. great to see another economist here 😀

[Kiki Balboa]

Still in a ranting mood.......So I shall continue to vent into the ether,,,

My gut feeling is the loss against Luxembourg will change nothing, just more talk. Who is senior team manager is an empty question at this stage. But, I would be super disapointed if Ruud Dokter is still here at the end of the year. His position is untenable if you want to signfy real change.

The FAI need restructuring, from how schoolboys work to amateur mens leagues to LOI. FAI needs to play hardball and focus on the football side of things and get things working. Jobs need to change responsibilities. A new culture needs to delvelop, FAI men dont just have little more than part time roles. This a really important time for 'the New FAI'. It really has to be a watershed moment.

The death of football isnt a sudden collaspe, but apathy. The FAI is very close for the sport becoming meaningless to everyone.

[pineapple stu]

I don't know if criticism of Dokter is entirely fair. He's got a tough time of it if the SFAI turn around and say "WTF do the Spanish know about underage football?" I'd be looking to get rid of anyone like that first, and also anyone higher up who failed to back Dokter up - only then can Dokter be properly judged.

Is the collapse of Irish football apathy? Probably at some level, yeah. But at a bigger level it strikes me that the problems are absolute mé féinism. Too many big fish in small ponds thinking that the Wicklow District League or the DDSL is the be all and end all. And I'd even include the LoI in that, because the change to summer soccer for the LoI alone was one of the most short-sighted decisions it's ever taken, and it all plays into the shambles we currently have. As Miguel Delaney says "A kind view would call it an Escher painting. A harsh one would call it a mess."

I think that's worse than apathy.

[Kiki Balboa]

I don't know if criticism of Dokter is entirely fair. He's got a tough time of it if the SFAI turn around and say "WTF do the Spanish know about underage football?" I'd be looking to get rid of anyone like that first, and also anyone higher up who failed to back Dokter up - only then can Dokter be properly judged.

While I dont want to scapegoat Dokter, he has had 7 years with nothing to show. With long term projects, its easy to hide. The most damming edvidence I can think of is when he came in, he wanted all Irish teams (from u16 to senior) to play one formation, a 4-3-3. After 7 years in the job, not senior national team or any league of Ireland play that formation (the senior team now play with wingbacks, as do Dundalk and Rovers). While he is probably not to blame, he has little to show working in the Irish system enviroment, and clearly doesnt have much to show for the second highest wages within the FAI.

The mé féinism is dead right as problem. Ive been to the most bizarre meetings in Dundalk about a Louth schoolboys league (which never happened), where motions were propsed that countryside teams must play all their games in the town. But mé féinism happens for lack of leadership and direction. The old FAI worked to extract as much wealth as possible from football in Ireland, the new FAI has chance to change. It must start within itself, start getting the basics right and offer new creative ways. It has a huge voice, and can use the bully pulpit to get its house in order.

[Charlie Darwin]

After 7 years in the job, not senior national team or any league of Ireland play that formation (the senior team now play with wingbacks, as do Dundalk and Rovers).
I don't disagree with your other points but I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Most LOI teams have played some variation of 433 for the past few years, in line with trend in the rest of Europe. Now some are following the growing trend in Europe for more flexible 343s.

[Kingdom]

opening post

Kiki, can I ask you what experience you've had with underage football in Ireland in the last 10-15 years, and of any underage football outside of Ireland?

[Kingdom]

https://foot.ie/threads/265666-Irish-Youth-Development-Structures?p=2071683&viewfull=1#post2071683

Anyone hazard a guess at the richest club in Ireland? I could hazard a guess at it, and they're based in the D4/D6 catchment area. They don't have their own pitch, clubhouse or training facilities.

[tetsujin1979]

Have to say that sacking Dokter now sounds like a over-reaction. He was appointed seven years ago, in April 2013 - https://www.fai.ie/ireland/news/ruud-dokter-appointed-high-performance-director - and this is the level where each of the underage sides have been eliminated since then



Year
Under 17
Under 19
Under 21


2014
Elite Stage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_UEFA_European_Under-17_Championship_elite_round#Group_5)
Elite Stage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_UEFA_European_Under-19_Championship_elite_round#Group_4)
NA


2015
Group Stage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_UEFA_European_Under-17_Championship#Group_D)
Elite Stage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_UEFA_European_Under-19_Championship_qualification#Group_2_2)
Fourth in Qualifying group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_UEFA_European_Under-21_Championship_qualification_Group_6)


2016
Elite Stage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_UEFA_European_Under-17_Championship_qualification#Group_7_2)
Qualifying Group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_UEFA_European_Under-19_Championship_qualification#Group_1)
NA


2017
Quarter Finals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_UEFA_European_Under-17_Championship#Quarter-finals)
Elite Stage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_UEFA_European_Under-19_Championship_qualification#Group_7_2)
Fourth in Qualifying group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_UEFA_European_Under-21_Championship_qualification_Group_2)


2018
Quarter Finals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_UEFA_European_Under-17_Championship#Quarter-finals)
Elite Stage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_UEFA_European_Under-19_Championship_qualification#Group_5_2)
NA


2019
Group Stage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_UEFA_European_Under-17_Championship#Group_A)
Semi Finals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_UEFA_European_Under-19_Championship#Semi-finals)
Third in Qualifying group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_UEFA_European_Under-21_Championship_qualification_Group_5)


2020
Elite Stage* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_UEFA_European_Under-17_Championship_qualification#Group_3)
Qualifying Group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_UEFA_European_Under-19_Championship_qualification#Group_10)
NA


2021
Cancelled
Cancelled
Third in Qualifying group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_UEFA_European_Under-21_Championship_qualification_Group_1)



I think the U17s performance has improved, the 2020 team topped their group with a 100% record and never got to play the Elite round. It's a shame we didn't get to see more of the 2019 U17 group of players at U19 level. They had a really difficult group though - Austria, Switzerland, and Gibralatar

The U21s are still where they've always been, but there's also been players like Bazunu, Parrott, Idah, Knight, and O'Shea getting senior caps, Ferguson playing at PL2 level at 16, Zefi linked with a move to Inter Milan, etc.

*Elite stage cancelled due to, well, everything

[Kiki Balboa]

Kiki, can I ask you what experience you've had with underage football in Ireland in the last 10-15 years, and of any underage football outside of Ireland?

I played schoolboys football/ youth loi (but was never that good)... Then later sat on committees for a schoolboy football team in Louth. Liased with ETP teams and saw players go to LOI youth teams . Lived abroad for a couple of years now (always amazed with the facilities of schools.... Local school beside me has a full astro (which splits into smaller pitches) with a running track (although only 3 lanes), volleyball court, tennis court and basketball court).

I didnt mean to dominate the conversation, and I was probably using to much hyperbolic language (probably towards Dokter... but I still feel he is already far outdated and has little results). Just really think there are many wrong questions being asked surronding football in Ireland.

[Bucket]

A lot of good points being made here. Big fish small pond type local leagues certainly need reforming. The calendar switch was incredibly short sighted. I've no preference for summer or winter, but Jesus pick one and have all levels playing at the same time.
While the LOI underage structure is to be welcomed, it's not perfect. I had to step away from juvenile coaching a few years ago. In the last team I had was one of the best 12 year old players I've seen, he went on trial with Galway Utd and was then asked to join. His mother couldn't afford the €400 it cost to play so he didn't sign. How many more kids have been cast aside because their parents are struggling?

[Real ale Madrid]

I'd be interested to know what achievements Dokter has - not having been involved in youth football for a good while myself.

I mean apart from setting up national underage leagues foisted on already cash strapped LOI clubs with no help, I can't see any sea changes that have come from within the FAI under his tenure - I stand corrected if that is otherwise the case. I'm just interested.

[Stuttgart88]

I'd be interested to know what achievements Dokter has - not having been involved in youth football for a good while myself.

I mean apart from setting up national underage leagues foisted on already cash strapped LOI clubs with no help, I can't see any sea changes that have come from within the FAI under his tenure - I stand corrected if that is otherwise the case. I'm just interested.Me too. As far as I can tell though the Idah/Parrott/Molumby/Connolly crew are the first "graduates" of the first Emerging Talent Programme, and the underage teams seem to be going OK. I think the decision to empower the LOI clubs over schoolboy clubs was his idea too, as was the national leagues at each age group. I've heard supporters of his complain about the U13 league though.

[Bucket]

The U13 league is gone, U14, U15, U17 and U19 leagues now. I'm in favour of the national underage leagues but more money has to come from somewhere so that no kid is priced out of the system.
If LOI clubs are truly going to replace the English system to produce our international players the kids will have to be training full-time from the age of 16. That seems lightyears away from the current structures

[mark12345]

I hope this is the right place for this. ..... But where did it go wrong....

I guess, like many, I am fairly devestated with the loss to Luxembourg. We were awful, and it didnt seem it was for the lack of trying. The talent just wasn't there. For me, the young players coming through won't bring us to a higher standard than we were 5 years ago (which was already low).

While its good that we have some young players coming through, I get the feeling its youth for the sake of youth. Its not their talent that got them into the squad, rather we had no other option (Parrot and Coventry have no where near the experience to be in a competitive naional team). It feels like as every other country is making progress we are really standing still.

Stephen Kenny staying or leaving is really a moot point. I am a big fan of Kenny, but this stick of 'developing a system' doesnt make any sense to me, because simply it doesnt really matter because the players arent here. In a similar vain, reaplacing him wont make much of a difference.

One person who needs to be gone is Ruud Dokter. He is in the job 10 years, and every year we get less competitve. When he first started, his ideas were already antiquated. The Dutch were already moving off ideas (like tactics, methods) like his when he started with the FAI. ETP teams have not worked. While maybe the idea was okay and soon became just a clone of the old schoolboy representative system. We are a small football association, with a history of giving massive contracts for little more than part-time work. Much of the coaching staff need to be double jobbing within the FAI. Why pay Robbie Keane (who also is able to work in England) and Ruud Dokter massive wages, when their jobs should be done by one person (like in the Welsh FA).

The only progress I see is LOI national youth leagues. Rovers, Pats and Bohs are doing great academy work. But their are issues here too. Missing U-14 and U-16 teams cause dysfunction in trying to bring through teams, and the gap between u19 to Senior is way to large. But at least this system allows for development from youth to senior football.

I have some suggestions, 1) All LOI teams need to have profesional coaches training their youth teams. This is unfeesible for many LOI clubs, so it has to be directly funded by the FAI. The FAI has regional develpoment officers, but their roles have to change. Baiscally, the aim of getting the best youth players the best coaching as possible (in a systematic way )(or Have a national academy like Georges Park in England...)

2) Developing 5-a side football. 5 a side is already culturally built in the country. Develop it for schoolboy football, codify it, and play leagues or blitzs in the off season, as it needs less players and less training. Baiscally a way to encourge all youth to play more football.

3) Decrease the cost of doing badges. Run more courses. Effort into developing coaching as much as players.

Apart from wanting to Rant, I want to know other opinions on where we are going right/wrong, and other suggestions that need to be done. I cant see us being competitive for 10 years. The FAI is on the verge of killing the game in Ireland.

Interesting points you make, but I have to ask something. And to be honest I am really afraid of the answer you might give me. You speak about 5 a side football for shoolboys. Please, please tell me that kids of a young age in Ireland are not still playing 11 a side? Because that went out with the dinosaurs' ancestors in most other countries. It has long since been proven that short-sided games are far better in developing young kids than 11 a side.

[Kingdom]

I hope this is the right place for this. But where did it go wrong.
Thanks for the thread, there's another similar to this last year I reckon, but no harm. And thanks for the reply to my question above ^ I was trying to see what side you're coming from which is all sides.


The talent just wasn't there. For me, the young players coming through won't bring us to a higher standard than we were 5 years ago (which was already low).
This is fair, and it's entirely possible. We've no guarantees with any of the younger generation - I'm not sure any could consider themselves as first-team regulars yet at their current level, but this is to be expected given their age. Bear in mind, that the standard of 5 years ago wasn't all that bad. We performed really well vs Sweden, Italy and for 30 mins against France. The problem was that we were a team getting older, without the processes in place to regenerate. I mightn't have liked MON, and think he was incredibly lucky at times, but 2016 was a successful tournament.


While its good that we have some young players coming through, I get the feeling its youth for the sake of youth. Its not their talent that got them into the squad, rather we had no other option It feels like as every other country is making progress we are really standing still.
This is important for a few reasons.
1 - it's correct! That's not their fault however - which is key to this whole debate, and isn't being taken into account imo
2 - Assuming that they are not ready - in terms of their ability, their development etc, then what should be done? There isn't a huge Int. standard pool of players that we've ignored for political, cultural or behavioural reasons. It's because they've been deemed not good enough by all the stakeholders - rightly or wrongly.
3 - this has already impacted on our youth sides, and it is a ripple effect. We lost our possible 21s qualification because of moving these players to the senior squad. that was the decision of the association and the management because of the needs must. But for me it was a mistake.
On the standing still - this concerns me less. Because when you do nothing, or worse you do the status quo, then v quickly you can be left behind. But on the flipside, any fundamental changes made for the long-term won't show any net gain for a long time, hence your thread here; but once they do start to show gains, they'll be consistent and the change once it starts will come about quickly.


Stephen Kenny staying or leaving is really a moot point...reaplacing him wont make much of a difference.
I disagree. For previous generations, the above would more than likely be correct. It might have been brief, but there was a genuine buy-in between staff, players and fans for that 21 side. They are the first - I really should check this ! - group to have come through the coordinated ETP that began a few years ago, and they'll be the link between the national side and the generations of youth players in the system currently and for the years to come. To have someone in the job, who knows how they've been coached, who understands their dynamic and who is publically saying "what you're doing is the right way, it's served you well in your career at club, representative and national level so far, and it's what we want you to be doing" is important.


One person who needs to be gone is Ruud Dokter...when their jobs should be done by one person (like in the Welsh FA).
This interests me, because it's something I've seen a lot of on social media. What exactly are the ideas in your opinion that he has introduced that are antiquated?
Is it the big schoolboy clubs have had their noses put out of joint? I'm biased here, as I don't believe the majority have any real care for Irish football, or the kids they are meant to be developing. It's a business - their business model has been taken away because of your next point below.
I've asked this question of people before and I've never really got an answer: why (of the "mega-clubs") do so few of them have good senior men's sides, when they have (over say a ten year period) approx 300 kids playing and paying to play for them?
Compare and contrast the mega-clubs: if they were genuinely interested in a kid, teenager or youth's development, why would you drop your focus at the ages of 16-18? We've always heard the stories of the FA Youth Cup, but in relative terms to other FAI National cups, the youth cups get very little focus and don't have as much prestige.


The only progress I see is LOI national youth leagues. Rovers, Pats and Bohs are doing great academy work. But their are issues here too. Missing U-14 and U-16 teams cause dysfunction in trying to bring through teams, and the gap between u19 to Senior is way to large. But at least this system allows for development from youth to senior football.
But doesn't this fly in the face of your opposition to Dokter? Are the LOI national youth leagues not a product of his tenure? I think they've been brilliant, and they are still in their infancy.


I have some suggestions,
Good man, suggestions we need:


1) All LOI teams need to have profesional coaches training their youth teams. This is unfeesible for many LOI clubs, so it has to be directly funded by the FAI. The FAI has regional develpoment officers, but their roles have to change. Baiscally, the aim of getting the best youth players the best coaching as possible (in a systematic way )(or Have a national academy like Georges Park in England...)
I'm confused - is this not the case already in many regions, and many LOI clubs? My own son - while we were there - was involved with a representative squad who were meeting three times a week every week in addition to club training. I might have disagreed with some of the tactics or choices they made - some general flaws - but couldn't fault the commitment, time or effort, or quality of coaching.


2) Developing 5-a side football. 5 a side is already culturally built in the country. Develop it for schoolboy football, codify it, and play leagues or blitzs in the off season, as it needs less players and less training. Baiscally a way to encourge all youth to play more football.
This I'm wary of for a couple of reasons. the first is that our facilities are still lagging behind GAA and rugby. It's much easier to put a small 5-a-side astro in a parish and say "look at what I've given you" in true pump-politics than it is to develop a full astro that has much bigger benefits. I'd wonder about participation levels too. 5-a-side drains a lot of money from the FAI, or local leagues/associations, with the benefits not being felt by the sport. participation numbers are still higher for football than GAA & rugby, but this is as much down to luck and structure in the other sportsd than it is design.
Participation on the level of what you're suggesting is more something for the DoH or the County Council Social units to be responsible for.

I'd much prefer to see an increase in futsal awareness, one because of the number of indoor halls we have available in every parish, and secondly because it's something that a lot of the new Irish are aware of from what I've read.


3) Decrease the cost of doing badges. Run more courses. Effort into developing coaching as much as players.
I've seen this highlighted as the real problem. Part of me agrees, part of me disagrees. The cost of the start up badges are not prohibitive - and that's all you need to take to get into basic coaching.
If you want to be a coach, then you've got to be in it for the long-haul - it is a vocation, and it is something you've got to prove yourself in. If you make the courses too cheap, then it devalues it. I think the schoolboy clubs should take a sharper look at themselves to be honest. Before leaving Ireland, I'd just started out doing my badges. I'd been coaching a couple of years - had done well with a modest team at a small club, and had invested in it completely. The club were committed to reimbursing some of the cost. From speaking to others I don't believe this to be the case elsewhere. Part of the problem is that the higher badges cost in Ireland compared to other jurisdictions. I understand that's wrong, and shouldn't be considered as a tax where gains can be made by the association. I actually don't think the FAI could run any more courses than they did when I left.


Apart from wanting to Rant, I want to know other opinions on where we are going right/wrong, and other suggestions that need to be done. I cant see us being competitive for 10 years. The FAI is on the verge of killing the game in Ireland.

It's not a rant, it's concern and it's justified. The problem for the new FAI, is that they have to try and recover lost ground on so many areas (womens, schoolboy, LOI, commercial, finances imploding) that it is very difficult.

I've the benefit of coaching in two sports, and administration in two, including one national governing body. I've seen the exact problems that came to light recently with the FAI replicated in this other NGB, that's why what happens with the FAI isn't shocking. It's Irish society, Irish nature - the love of the nod and the wink, and we repeatedly fail to get away from it.

[Kingdom]

Interesting points you make, but I have to ask something. And to be honest I am really afraid of the answer you might give me. You speak about 5 a side football for shoolboys. Please, please tell me that kids of a young age in Ireland are not still playing 11 a side? Because that went out with the dinosaurs' ancestors in most other countries. It has long since been proven that short-sided games are far better in developing young kids than 11 a side.

Thankfully, no, they are not! The structure is good but not perfect.

3, 5, 7, 9 a side on special pitches from nursery up to 12s I think.

[Kingdom]

I'm always wary of blanket suggestions like this. The FAI are broke. Are professional coaches really add that much that they're essential? What about appropriately-qualified part-time or volunteer coaches?
The reality is that it should be both.


Also, there's only so many players the few LoI clubs can coach. The focus needs to be much broader.
Correct, but I think there's other issues there that we could link into. Say you're an ex-LOI pro and you desperately want to get into the coaching lark at the upper end. There's schoolboys, schoolgirls, schools/colleges, inner-city, homeless, amputee's, disabled, categories that are crying out for support.


I think the issues go way beyond the LoI. Miguel Delaney's article on Irish football a few years back was fairly damning and I'd say very little has changed. The SFAI saying "What the **** would they know about Irish football?” when Ruud suggested they start bringing in continental ways of coaching. I don't think any changes to pitch size have been brought in at any level for example? There's no coherent pyramid. There's no clear path for progression. There's an absurd amount of politicking and backstabbing. The whole thing needs a root and branch reform. Starting with ****ing out anyone in the SFAI who has blocked progress in the past decade. (I know that's all very idealistic and the practicalities of it would be much more difficult of course)

100%. I'd say that Miguel Delaney article had as many hits this week as six years ago. The pyramid is most definitely an issue, but it ties into the funding costs and start-up costs, admin costs that admittance to the LOI entails.

As big a problem for me, is how it also ties into how public money has been spent on sports facilities in this country over generations. And I don't know how we shift public policy on that, given the rural sway in the Oireachtas, and stakeholder sway in areas such as HRI and Greyhounds. I've no figures but I can think of all the places I've lived in Ireland (Dublin, Kerry, Offaly, Laois, Kildare) the sizeable property which GAA clubs own and manage. There's issues of football's own making that cannot be ignored - mismanagement of funds, tinpot clubs sprouting from other tinpot clubs due to petty disagreements - but in the main, football's frustrations are fair. It's pathetic that public funds are given to one specific sports organisation who in turn can develop an astro-pitch to in turn rent it out to another sports organisation at a cost. It's discriminatory almost, as it keeps the foot on the throat of football. I think it was here that I referred to Sundrive Park in Crumlin - the situation might be different now,
We laugh at the three sided nature of our main stadiums, but realistically speaking, this is practical and logical, and if we were to consider municipal facilities for field sports, a 3-sided permanent structure is the pragmatic choice to allow for the 3 big sports.

With regard to the pyramid, it's a huge problem with two sides - the schoolboys issue which the national underage leagues are attempting to address in one respect, but also, we cannot escape the facilities issue. To be a credible club competing within the LOI structure - a Kerry, Mayo or Carlow regional side, you've got to have decent faciliites. Mounthawk Park is a really useful piece of infrastructure for the KDL, but it's in no way suitable to host a LoI first division match, or a cup game of any magnitude. I cannot speak for the others. A pre-requisite should be a properly equipped clubhouse, and some form of covered seated (even if just slabbed) stand.


In a way, the Luxembourg defeat was good in that it got people starting to talk about the issues we're facing. Maybe it's the rock bottom moment that starts to get people noticing there's a problem. "Kenny paying the price for 'mismanagement and neglect'" was the headline on RTÉ the day after the game for example - and it's right. He is. He may also not be up to the role, but the article makes valid points that have been glossed over for too long..
Both points are fair. On reflection this week, I think we've still to hit the nadir. It's possible/likely that Randolph, Long, Brady, Coleman, Hendrick will be gone by the end of this campaign (Nov 2021). If we take it that this WC 2022 is gone, and with Euro 24 qualifiers not starting until Mar 23 (or June 22 if like me you consdier the NL an opportunity to be used), then it's a long-time for guys in the over 30 bracket to be hanging around.


But if we fix everything overnight, then we're still looking at a ten-year wait until players start coming through under a new system. That's ten years of probably hopping between fourth and fifth seeds.
My nadir point above. In the next NL, we could easily draw Ukraine, Russia and Albania. I wouldn't be confident of surviving relegation, particularly if there are retirees. Obviously personal opinion enters the room here. I think the ETP will ultimately pay big dividends. We've seen that the first batch are quite talented with a number in the MNT squad - either on merit or necessity. The next batch is not of the same standard, but we'll likely see one or two come through, and hopefuily this is a trend that continues. It really should be.


The other thing people need to start doing is supporting the LoI. They can still support Premier League teams as well of course - but if the general public is going to ignore the LoI en masse as it currently does, then it'll have no money to develop players - and so the team will continue to struggle.
This is crucial. it's possibly the aspect that will be scoffed at most, but it is crucial.
take the two arms of the problem:
- the players being developed aren't good enough;
- for those good enough, the market is beyond competitive;
For the first problem, the aforementioned issues should help. I've seen football at schoolboy level, and elite level in two different countries - Ireland and Belgium. Up to 16, there is no difference in the skill levels of our best and their best. None - it's not bias, it's a casual observation (my own kid does not fall into that elite bracket, so no rose-tinted glasses either). So the problem for our players is the developmental stage from 16-20/21 - the age that we've handed responsibility in the main to someone else.
For the second problem, we've got to provide better markets for our young players to trade in. And for starters that should be in Ireland, with only the true elite heading abroad. It seems almost masochistic that someone like Jack Byrne - a homebird if you believe what you read - is advised to go somewhere - UK where his game is unsuited - it nearly breaks him, before coming back to Ireland to rehab and takes off again, albeit to an area more suited to his ability. I understand that language is used as a barrier/umbilical cord, but we've got to get around this issue. The Belgian league, underage system, and way of life are really suited to an Irish personality, and I know from speaking to others the same applies to Netherlands.

With rgard to the LoI, I've seen mention of Robbie Keane elsewhere and his contract. Seb Larsson moved back to Sweden to play with AIK. Robbie went to LA - no issue - but then went to India. Darren Randolph is 34 and sitting his arse on the West Ham bench. He's not in the same earning potential as Keane given his career trajectory, but surely a conversation needs to be had with our experienced pros and the idea of coming back to play in the LoI in their twilights proposed?
Whelan - one of my favourite players - going to Fleetwood Town! I could understand, possibly a mcGeady going to Sunderland in L1 (he's no real link here, and they're a massive club), but a Whelan, Ward, Kilbane going to no-mark clubs in the arsehole of the UK when they could be giving back to Irish football is not-good. And that's where the public come in. We need to be supporting our league in bigger numbers, and particularly in the PD. if you take a 5 game series, the figures should be pushing through the 20k total minimum every week. The FAI need to up their game in promotion; the govt, clubs and councils need to up their game in facilities; but the public need to up their game in commitment.

[Stuttgart88]

Someone i respect hugely said to me recently that he felt the end of the troubles and the good friday agreement has as a byproduct cost us tonnes of players, and largely eroded national identity amongst the second and third generation irish in england. as in, as long as you were persecuted in england for your name or your parents accent, there was an enforced sense of otherness and a separate identity to cling on to. thought it was an interesting idea...

i know there are people on here who would have a far better sense than i would, but you can certainly imagine that if rice or grealish grew up in the troubles, they would have been less likely to play for england... We’ve a young dachshund puppy at home and we took her to the local cemetery in Kilburn where she met another young dachshund. It’s a popular place to bring dogs because you can let them off the lead safely. The two were having great craic together and they attracted some watchers. One was a retired Irish bloke, in London 50 years. Lovely gentle elderly man. We chatted about how Kilburn had changed and bemoaned the loss of the Irish pubs. Prompted by some recent posts on this thread I asked if he thought the Irish community was changing and I said we were talking about it here in context of 1G and 2G Irish footballers. He said “yeah, look at Grealish. And he’s not even playing for them.” Then he added “I hope he never does. And breaks both his legs”!

[Kiki Balboa]

Brexit is a covert operation by the FAI to increase the catchment of decent footballers in the UK.....

[tetsujin1979]

On that note
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-irish-passports-britain-coveney-b1826580.html

[Charlie Darwin]

On that note
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-irish-passports-britain-coveney-b1826580.html
I can see geysir and Danny Invincible popping a vein if they see this. People from NI aren't entitled to dual citizenship because of the GFA - they were always entitled to it.

[Kiki Balboa]

With rgard to the LoI, I've seen mention of Robbie Keane elsewhere and his contract. Seb Larsson moved back to Sweden to play with AIK. Robbie went to LA - no issue - but then went to India. Darren Randolph is 34 and sitting his arse on the West Ham bench. He's not in the same earning potential as Keane given his career trajectory, but surely a conversation needs to be had with our experienced pros and the idea of coming back to play in the LoI in their twilights proposed?
Whelan - one of my favourite players - going to Fleetwood Town! I could understand, possibly a mcGeady going to Sunderland in L1 (he's no real link here, and they're a massive club), but a Whelan, Ward, Kilbane going to no-mark clubs in the arsehole of the UK when they could be giving back to Irish football is not-good. And that's where the public come in. We need to be supporting our league in bigger numbers, and particularly in the PD. if you take a 5 game series, the figures should be pushing through the 20k total minimum every week. The FAI need to up their game in promotion; the govt, clubs and councils need to up their game in facilities; but the public need to up their game in commitment.

Duff, Damien Delaney and Daryl Murphy have all played LOI at the end of the careers, without adding much to the league (Although Murphy looks a good signing). I think some of these players can be good, adding experience and leadership to a team (such as Joey O'Brien to Rovers). But Duff and Delaney were awful, and having these superstar players for the sake of it meant very little to Irish football.

I think it could go the other way. There are plenty of U-21 players at British clubs going on loan to lower league teams to get their first senior experience. If the coaching and facilities are there, it could be a much better experience playing on loan in Ireland (playing around family/ playing in Europe/ trying to win national league). Afolabi, Connell and Parrott currently dont play at a standard much higher than LOI, and even English born players might benefit from playing LOI (gaining more of an Irish football 'culture') like Joe Hodge this year.

FAI could play a role as broker for bringing underage players back to Ireland for loan deals.

[Kingdom]

Duff, Damien Delaney and Daryl Murphy have all played LOI at the end of the careers, without adding much to the league (Although Murphy looks a good signing). I think some of these players can be good, adding experience and leadership to a team (such as Joey O'Brien to Rovers). But Duff and Delaney were awful, and having these superstar players for the sake of it meant very little to Irish football.

I think it could go the other way. There are plenty of U-21 players at British clubs going on loan to lower league teams to get their first senior experience. If the coaching and facilities are there, it could be a much better experience playing on loan in Ireland (playing around family/ playing in Europe/ trying to win national league). Afolabi, Connell and Parrott currently dont play at a standard much higher than LOI, and even English born players might benefit from playing LOI (gaining more of an Irish football 'culture') like Joe Hodge this year.

FAI could play a role as broker for bringing underage players back to Ireland for loan deals.

Jonathan Afolabi

I think you misinterpret my point with the reference to the three you mention. Seb Larsson has been around forever, has moved back to Sweden and is still in their national squad. He clearly has something to offer, and his return to Sweden wasn't a deterrent, nor should it have been. Nor am I suggesting that players come back to the LOI for a wind-down either. That turned the LOI into something of a jokeshop in the 60s and 70s from what I can see.
Glenn Whelan is a good example I suppose - Fleetwood town ffs. Wes I suppose is another.
And I agree completely with you on the 21s. We should be a viable alternative, and you'd have to say that Bohs have been good in this regard. can't speak for other clubs.

it's not an discussion that needs to get us into the trenches either. There will always be questions around the LOI it seems - particularly when it comes to players who are deemed not good enough to be in the discussion for the national squad while based in ireland, but hoping on a plane suddenly deems them worthy. That was the running gag on here for a long while.
It used to be fitness and the professional training setup, and performance monitoring. that's not an issue anymore. It's now simply down to the talent one faces on a weekly basis.

[pineapple stu]

Troy Parrott is at Ipswich; that definitely is a much higher standard than the LoI.

Luca Connell is fair enough, though Queen's Park is probably a move of convenience as they play in the same city.

Scottish Championship is hard to judge, but results in the Tunnocks lovely biscuit cup thing don't paint the LoI in a great light at all.

Having these players back on loan would be good, but I think the LoI needs to improve before it can happen regularly. There's been more players than usual coming here on loan this year (Hodge, Halwax, Jaros), but they all seem to be a step or two behind those you mention.

I'm not sure it's the FAI's role at all to be brokering loan deals for its clubs; that's only asking for rows. In the end of the day, professional football isn't a charity, and we can't expect favourable treatment just because. It's up to the league to reach a position where it has something to offer, say, Troy Parrott, and right now it doesn't.

[passinginterest]

I think the different seasons hurts us a little in terms of the loan markets from England, particularly for the promising younger players. If our clubs were a bit more consistent with making progress in Europe I'd imagine it might become a more tempting option. I'm sure starting for Dundalk in the Europa league groups would have been great for some promising players loaned back from England. If there was a good prospect of 5 or 6 European games at least, then you'd imagine those types of loans become more meaningful to both parties. It would mean attracting a very high level of talent though, would Afolabi for example have been good enough to force his way into the Dundalk starting lineup last season? Parrot would have been an interesting one at the time and maybe someone like Lee O'Connor.

[pineapple stu]

Good point on the differing seasons alright.

I think given Dundalk's main forward options are Dave McMillan (didn't really do much at Falkirk, Hamilton or St Johnstone) at Pat Hoban (flopped in League Two and the Conference), then I don't think you can really question someone whether starting for Dundee is good enough to make the team.

[passinginterest]

Good point on the differing seasons alright.

I think given Dundalk's main forward options are Dave McMillan (didn't really do much at Falkirk, Hamilton or St Johnstone) at Pat Hoban (flopped in League Two and the Conference), then I don't think you can really question someone whether starting for Dundee is good enough to make the team.

I think you can to be honest, particularly if you go back to the time, he would have been a player with practically no senior experience, ok the others might not have been particularly successful at a similar level to where he is now but they're senior established professionals with European experience. I don't think you could assume someone like Afolabi automatically displaces one of them in the Europa League.

If anything, that's the risk factor and possibly why we didn't see Dundalk, or Rovers in their previous Europa league run, looking to bring in those type of players.

[pineapple stu]

The group stages were just six months ago; Afolabi was at Dundee then as now. Would be different if you were going back a couple of seasons, sure.

There's a consistency thing alright where a player newly arrived mayn't be ready yet to go straight into an XI. But I guess for me, the question as you phrased it was "Would Afolabi for example have been good enough to force his way into the Dundalk starting lineup last season?", and that just sounds to me like you're overestimating Dundalk's options up front.

[Olé Olé]

A point of digression here but I found it interesting anyways. I was taking a look at international results recently and saw Tunisia crop up. It dawned on me to check if Ayman Ben Mohamed was featuring. He wasn't but he has been in recent squads.

Anyway, as many know, Ayman was schooled entirely in the Irish footballing system. His senior experience here was with UCD, Bohs and Longford Town.

He moved to ES Tunis and got into the Tunisia set up. Interestingly, he moved onto Le Havre in France. They have been in Ligue 2 during his time there. More interestingly, I think, at the end of January he signed on with Denzilispor in the top flight in Turkey for the rest of the season. I had a quick look at their squad and it has some interesting names and plenty internationals- Pantmillon (Romania), Diskerud (USA), Rodallega (Colombia) and some other internationals with Togo, Iraq, Mali and Chile.

I found it interesting to see a player from the LOI and entirely schooled in our footballing system is rubbing shoulders with that diverse a range of international footballers at a European club.

I don't have any other point or implication to draw from the above.

[pineapple stu]

He was named for the last squad but pulled out through injury.

[Bungle]

Interesting hearing that our youth is on a par with Belgium. Certainly our youth teams compete well across the ages.

A lot of good points mentioned on the thread and plenty of reasons for hope and concern.
My gut feeling from what I've observed is that clubs like Shamrock Rovers and Bohs etc having a really good academy is the way forward. A proper pathway for young lads into clubs.

I know a few outstanding players who went to England who became some of the best young players in the academy system over there. I could have told you that none of them would make it to the level they should have because of their attitudes before they left.

A good friend of mine's son is a current youth international and last year, he went on trial to Liverpool a few times and they looked to sign him. He is now with a LOI club. My friend was telling me that the other youth players at Liverpool when they went over were really polite and mannerly and came over to him and his wife to say hello. A few of them England youth internationals but had been at the club since they were tiny. Really down to earth lads who really made his son feel at home. He met Klopp and said he was an absolute gent, but was really emphasising to his son the importance of study etc... My mate made the point that there's a good few big time Charlies lads in the national team with his son and they really could learn a bit from how they conduct themselves off the pitch from the lads at Liverpool and some of the other English clubs that were looking to sign his lad. They have conveyor belts of lads who would do anything to play for them, so acting the ****** is rarely tolerated like it might at our elite schoolboy clubs.

[Kiki Balboa]

Interesting hearing that our youth is on a par with Belgium. Certainly our youth teams compete well across the ages.

A lot of good points mentioned on the thread and plenty of reasons for hope and concern.
My gut feeling from what I've observed is that clubs like Shamrock Rovers and Bohs etc having a really good academy is the way forward. A proper pathway for young lads into clubs.

I know a few outstanding players who went to England who became some of the best young players in the academy system over there. I could have told you that none of them would make it to the level they should have because of their attitudes before they left.

A good friend of mine's son is a current youth international and last year, he went on trial to Liverpool a few times and they looked to sign him. He is now with a LOI club. My friend was telling me that the other youth players at Liverpool when they went over were really polite and mannerly and came over to him and his wife to say hello. A few of them England youth internationals but had been at the club since they were tiny. Really down to earth lads who really made his son feel at home. He met Klopp and said he was an absolute gent, but was really emphasising to his son the importance of study etc... My mate made the point that there's a good few big time Charlies lads in the national team with his son and they really could learn a bit from how they conduct themselves off the pitch from the lads at Liverpool and some of the other English clubs that were looking to sign his lad. They have conveyor belts of lads who would do anything to play for them, so acting the ****** is rarely tolerated like it might at our elite schoolboy clubs.

That post reminds me of this article about Sporting Lisbon and their academy https://thesefootballtimes.co/2015/03/31/the-sporting-cp-academy-way/

Back on conversation, the next biggest imporvement needed for the development for Irish football is bridge between underage and senior football in the country, through a reserve league (like the old 'A' league) or 'B' teams competing.

[pineapple stu]

Interesting hearing that our youth is on a par with Belgium. Certainly our youth teams compete well across the ages.
Where are you hearing this btw?

[nigel-harps1954]

That post reminds me of this article about Sporting Lisbon and their academy https://thesefootballtimes.co/2015/03/31/the-sporting-cp-academy-way/

Back on conversation, the next biggest imporvement needed for the development for Irish football is bridge between underage and senior football in the country, through a reserve league (like the old 'A' league) or 'B' teams competing.

I think there's discussions happening around this. Certainly, within the Harps academy, Kevin McHugh (head of academy), and Tommy Canning (19's manager), have said they've been involved in discussions about it.

[elatedscum]

I’ve noticed more players coming through LOI clubs this year than ever before at a younger age. Some I’d heard of before like Darragh Burns and Ben McCormack at Pats (both 18), but the likes of Johnny Kenny, Ryan O’Kane (both 17) and Cian Kavanagh (18) seemed to come from nowhere. Maybe it’s because they didn’t go to England due to Brexit, so the quality of young lads at LOI clubs is higher. Maybe it’s because there hasn’t been international underage football at 19s and 17s since 2019, that their recent progression has gone unnoticed internationally but it’s been pleasantly surprising...

[Bungle]

That post reminds me of this article about Sporting Lisbon and their academy https://thesefootballtimes.co/2015/03/31/the-sporting-cp-academy-way/

Back on conversation, the next biggest imporvement needed for the development for Irish football is bridge between underage and senior football in the country, through a reserve league (like the old 'A' league) or 'B' teams competing.

Great article that.

[pineapple stu]

but the likes of Johnny Kenny, Ryan O’Kane (both 17) and Cian Kavanagh (18) seemed to come from nowhere. Maybe it’s because they didn’t go to England due to Brexit
Cian Kavanagh at Waterford? He signed from Cowdenbeath, and was with Hearts' U18s before that. (OK, not England, but same thing effectively)

[Bungle]

Where are you hearing this btw?

Kingdom mentioned from his observations there is little difference in the skillset of our young players and theirs up to about the age of 16.

To be honest, our youth teams compete well and generally seem to be around 8th-16th in Europe across the ages, which is a very decent quality for a country of our size. The issue is that our very best players have often been at clubs like Liverpool or United, so very hard to break through and they lose momentum at vital periods of their development. As elatedscum says there is a good pathway for some of these young lads into loi teams rather than say ending up in u18 or u23 football in England. A few years of mens football before going over to England older wiser and more hardened with possibly european experience makes sense. Moves to the continent might also be easier for a 19 or 20 year old and open up that for them.

[pineapple stu]

Ok, that's rather less scientific than I'd thought!

I think a major factor is the increasing lack of a professional environment for players around 18-22. We know fewer than ever are going to England at 16 (which is a good thing) The Irish teams in the UEFA Youth League have always held their own against decent opposition. Erling Håland even played against UCD (for 30 minutes...) and didn't score

But the LoI is mostly part-time, which means our players can't kick on like at other clubs (such as Molde, Håland's club). It can't help their chances at all