Republic of Ireland V Luxembourg - Saturday, 27th March 2021 - World Cup Qualifier

[D24Saint]

Facilities in Ireland are a joke. Can I ask any of you living in Ireland how far is it to your nearest proper running track?

How much does an astro pitch even cost? And an urban white water rafting park was seriously considered for EUR 25 million.

I agree , just look at the absolute state of our national athletics stadium.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morton_Stadium

[Bielsa´s irish]

Lets see how it develops

[elatedscum]

I think your argument is intuitively true. I'm not saying I disagree but I do often wonder how many genuinely class players we lose out to other sports though. My sense is that those with a real gift for football (rather than those who are better than most but never likely to excel at elite level) do tend to specialise at football. I read a story about Tony Grealish once, how he'd watch his dad play GAA while dribbling football behind the goal. Tony played GAA too and was good at it but excelled at the football. Do we really lose many exceptional footballers to other sports? Does it matter in the overall scheme of things if kids play other sports and move away from football? I don't know but my instinctive answer is to think we don't lose many potential elites to other games.

Did anyone see the Twitter pic posted last week of a young Gavin Bazunu shaking hands with a kid called Jack Lundy, then of Leicester Celtic? Each was about 9 or 10 at the time. David McWilliams of the Irish Times asked who the other kid (Lundy was). His dad replied saying it was his lad, and had come from a 100% football family but went to school at St. Mary's Rathmines where he because the rugby team out-half and someone added that he also went on to captain Dublin minors. But football broke the dad's heart. The GAA club was a constant, a well funded well supported club that was there down the years and will be there for years to come. The school allowed for continuous development, 6 years of being in the same team and regular competition against other schools. The football: teams broke up, players got poached, 4 league seasons weren't finished and it was a shambles and he gave up.

I suppose it's a numbers thing. Football clearly loses players to other games as it clearly doesn't help itself and the more players you lose the % chance of missing a very good player increases. But playing other games at a young age is generally seen as a good thing too (Ruud Dokter disagrees though). And while Rob Kearney could have been a super GAA player for example, could he have been an international standard footballer? Could Sexton, Carbery or O'Gara have been turned into footballers of the standard needed if they'd specialised at football early? I'd say it's more likely Andy Reid could have been another Tony Ward rather than Ronan O'Gara being another Andy Reid. Ward was a very good footballer btw. My own experience from playing in a big rugby school is that the better footballers on the first XV rugby team were genuinely really good rugby players (Leinster schools quality) but none could hold a candle to a kid called James Crowley at football. James was on the books at Bohs but never got near the first team. Shels legend Eric Barber's son Malcolm was in my year. He was just miles better than the best all-rounders in the school at football. I have no idea what level he went on to play at but probably no higher than LSL.

anecdotal evidence - but in my primary school, there were two truly exceptional footballers in my class (of i'd guess about 14 boys). the second best has had a career of 400+ professional appearances so far between ireland and the uk. the best lad at age 12 (like the kid above, was also at leicester celtic at that age), he went to a rugby secondary school and he bulked up there, gained a lot of weight to be the best rugby player he could be. he continued playing football through his teens but focussed more on rugby. he left school still being a very good footballer, but nowhere near what he could have been had he gone down a different path.

i remember when i was about 20, playing with a lad who had gone to the rugby school with Player A and had been the third keeper for the LOI side that player B was playing for the previous season. His take on it was that while Player A had the better football brain, player B was significantly the better athlete. While Player B was able to play several different sports at a high level with ease through his teens, Player A really needed to focus on playing football, stay light and trim and train regularly.

i think you can probably make assessments on a macro level, but there really is a whole spectrum of routes that work or don't work depending on the player.

FWIW Johnny Sexton was in the same primary school, but was about 5 years ahead, so can't remember at all if he was any good at football (he also went to Mary's).

interestingly, i also played with a lad who was in Andy Reid's year in Synge Street. He said Andy didn't make the school team for his year in football until 2nd or 3rd year. Bit weird considering his father's history in the game but probably re-enforces the idea of bad coaches not recognising good players...

[Stuttgart88]

That's mad about Andy Reid. Funnily enough Andrey Arshavin's kid was in my son's class in primary school and was rubbish apparently!

[mark12345]

I think your argument is intuitively true. I'm not saying I disagree but I do often wonder how many genuinely class players we lose out to other sports though. My sense is that those with a real gift for football (rather than those who are better than most but never likely to excel at elite level) do tend to specialise at football. I read a story about Tony Grealish once, how he'd watch his dad play GAA while dribbling football behind the goal. Tony played GAA too and was good at it but excelled at the football. Do we really lose many exceptional footballers to other sports? Does it matter in the overall scheme of things if kids play other sports and move away from football? I don't know but my instinctive answer is to think we don't lose many potential elites to other games.

Did anyone see the Twitter pic posted last week of a young Gavin Bazunu shaking hands with a kid called Jack Lundy, then of Leicester Celtic? Each was about 9 or 10 at the time. David McWilliams of the Irish Times asked who the other kid (Lundy was). His dad replied saying it was his lad, and had come from a 100% football family but went to school at St. Mary's Rathmines where he because the rugby team out-half and someone added that he also went on to captain Dublin minors. But football broke the dad's heart. The GAA club was a constant, a well funded well supported club that was there down the years and will be there for years to come. The school allowed for continuous development, 6 years of being in the same team and regular competition against other schools. The football: teams broke up, players got poached, 4 league seasons weren't finished and it was a shambles and he gave up.

I suppose it's a numbers thing. Football clearly loses players to other games as it clearly doesn't help itself and the more players you lose the % chance of missing a very good player increases. But playing other games at a young age is generally seen as a good thing too (Ruud Dokter disagrees though). And while Rob Kearney could have been a super GAA player for example, could he have been an international standard footballer? Could Sexton, Carbery or O'Gara have been turned into footballers of the standard needed if they'd specialised at football early? I'd say it's more likely Andy Reid could have been another Tony Ward rather than Ronan O'Gara being another Andy Reid. Ward was a very good footballer btw. My own experience from playing in a big rugby school is that the better footballers on the first XV rugby team were genuinely really good rugby players (Leinster schools quality) but none could hold a candle to a kid called James Crowley at football. James was on the books at Bohs but never got near the first team. Shels legend Eric Barber's son Malcolm was in my year. He was just miles better than the best all-rounders in the school at football. I have no idea what level he went on to play at but probably no higher than LSL.

Small small world it is. I played with Malcolm Barber for 10 or 12 years in Boston, for a team called Bohemians. Superb player - a real Roy Keane of amateur football in Massachusetts. Quite a successful team were the Boston Bohs - all Irish, made up of players from amateur leagues at home - won Massachusetts state title 5 times. Got to be honest - having played reserve football in LOI at home, I learned more in six months playing in Boston than a lifetime of playing at home. When you come up against Italian, Portuguese, Brazilians etc, you learn a lot from them. And about Tony Ward - I saw him play for an Ireland select team against Southampton at Tolka Park. What a football player. He was excellent that night and was a real handful for the Saints. Kevin Keegan proclaimed after the game that Tony could have been a professional soccer player - and from what I saw he was right.

[Bielsa´s irish]

I'm not surprised by that stat tbh. Over the years we've had our ups and downs, but we generally don't lose at home. Lansdoowne Rd is a hard old nut to crack for visiting teams.

I do think the lack of fans is contributing to our fall from grace. The atmosphere can be lacking when it comes to teams where there's a gulf in class, but when opposition of a similar level to ourselves come to town it's usually very good.

Another thing that nobody of these streetwise irish football fans mentioned or talked I think is that we dont "win" yellow cards, I dont want to win the fair play award, I just wanna qualify to the WC.

We should be smart enough and get some nasty business on the football pitch, I always remembered the Roy of Ireland vs Overmars, set the tone of the game.

Only Molumby showed that bite, we need more bite. Football and agressiveness, that Rodrigues the other day, imagine him playing against us or Uruguay or even brazil, we have class but we are better at closing down opposition and we are ready for a challenge and some streetwise methods and picardy.

Get some yellows. Dont be naive mr.Kennyn

[backstothewall]

Another thing that nobody of these streetwise irish football fans mentioned or talked I think is that we dont "win" yellow cards, I dont want to win the fair play award, I just wanna qualify to the WC.

We should be smart enough and get some nasty business on the football pitch, I always remembered the Roy of Ireland vs Overmars, set the tone of the game.

Only Molumby showed that bite, we need more bite. Football and agressiveness, that Rodrigues the other day, imagine him playing against us or Uruguay or even brazil, we have class but we are better at closing down opposition and we are ready for a challenge and some streetwise methods and picardy.

Get some yellows. Dont be naive mr.Kennyn

I'd agree with this actually. We are too nice.

[Stuttgart88]

Small small world it is. I played with Malcolm Barber for 10 or 12 years in Boston, for a team called Bohemians. Superb player - a real Roy Keane of amateur football in Massachusetts. Quite a successful team were the Boston Bohs - all Irish, made up of players from amateur leagues at home - won Massachusetts state title 5 times. Got to be honest - having played reserve football in LOI at home, I learned more in six months playing in Boston than a lifetime of playing at home. When you come up against Italian, Portuguese, Brazilians etc, you learn a lot from them. And about Tony Ward - I saw him play for an Ireland select team against Southampton at Tolka Park. What a football player. He was excellent that night and was a real handful for the Saints. Kevin Keegan proclaimed after the game that Tony could have been a professional soccer player - and from what I saw he was right.Wow, I always wondered what had happened to Malcolm! I presume you've lost touch? If not I'll PM you so I can send my regards via you.

[Kingdom]

Had to come back to this before today's game.
Passinginterest summed up everything I could and would say so much better in the Qatar thread. Plenty of soul-searching the last few days. To sack Kenny now, would be a waste of time, waste of a year, and counter-productive.

[tetsujin1979]

Something I didn't realise until last night. We had three shots on target in the game against Luxembourg, but I didn't realise two of them came in the first half.
https://twitter.com/irish_abroad/status/1375908698397286400
https://twitter.com/irish_abroad/status/1375925372890578951
In 45 minutes of football, we had one shot on target against Luxembourg.

[paul_oshea]

Paul, you have until 8:30 this evening to provide the requested points.

I actually think I said paraphrasing we became static and turned around and held the ball up when breaking, and not passing to the man in front( who was often out wide).

Happy to take back the using the runners bit : )

[Bielsa´s irish]

Something I didn't realise until last night. We had three shots on target in the game against Luxembourg, but I didn't realise two of them came in the first half.
...
In 45 minutes of football, we had one shot on target against Luxembourg.

Unacceptable. With those teams you have to set all out attack. Imagine that portuguese Rodrigues vs any of my southamerican teams, first play a kick in the calf, second another kick in the other calf, One thing I criticize from Kenny is Ireland is too nice to play against. we should kick it as streetwise footie culture

[Bielsa´s irish]

I remember I think it was Shane Long who was kicked up and down the whole match vs Belgium at the euros
Classy teams they are v.good everywhere, but they are crafty at streetwise kicking, at closing down opposition etc etc.

I sense we are too nice to play against.

[brine3]

Oh yeah, for all the total football, the Ajax back four of the 1970s were absolute hard as nails.

[seanfhear]

Oh yeah, for all the total football, the Ajax back four of the 1970s were absolute hard as nails.
Could remove anything !

[brine3]

And Neeskens and Mürhen in midfield were kicking lumps out of everyone.

[Bielsa´s irish]

And Neeskens and Mürhen in midfield were kicking lumps out of everyone.
Big teams they have a bit of dirty arts to combine with their samba, tiki taka etc, Spain of 2007-2012 they were very good but they also block rivals, and the italian teams too from the past, they played it low profile with little pushes, bruises, kicks, etc etc. They played it short between lines, close gaps and were near the guy in possession so they could get the ball back. Streetwise

[tetsujin1979]

Question - Travers was beaten by a chip because the defence was playing a high line against Serbia, and Bazunu tipped a similar shot over the bar against Luxembourg. Is whatever defensive tactics being used by Kenny exposing his goalkeepers to this, or was it just a coincidence in the two games?

[irishfan86]

I think you’re onto something there Tets. Goalkeepers asked to play as more of a sweeper will always be more susceptible to long range chip shots. Young sweeper keepers can get away with it at youth level given many young attackers don’t have the vision or quality to take advantage of those situations — I suspect the vulnerability in that sense will drop as those goalkeepers get more experience at senior level.

[Kingdom]

Ah stop!

The Luxembourg “lob” was a punt. If Bazunu was beaten by that - let’s just say we wouldn’t have witnessed the 3or4 page discussion about him and travers.
The Mitrovic lob - there’s no blame on the tactics, the high line - travers got stranded. I’d have to look back at it again, but there might be a case that Travers wasn’t out far enough to begin with: just to be clear I’m suggesting it, rather than being definitive as I’d have to check the tape, to recall if he just held his position or if he dropped back significantly.

And it has to be acknowledged that it was an absolutely perfect chip for that particular situation.

[paul_oshea]

Question - Travers was beaten by a chip because the defence was playing a high line against Serbia, and Bazunu tipped a similar shot over the bar against Luxembourg. Is whatever defensive tactics being used by Kenny exposing his goalkeepers to this, or was it just a coincidence in the two games?

This is a fair assesment , as also got beaten from a couple of shots where there was no breakdown because the line is one movement leaving a gap between defenders and midfielders. Is Kenny not telling anyone to sit in front of the CBs and break up play or close down the space ? The person looking for the ball from the centre backs needs to be doing this when out of possession.

[paul_oshea]

Can't edit * meant to say got beaten from shots outside the box where there was lots of space to run into and no closing down**

[Kingdom]

This is a fair assesment , as also got beaten from a couple of shots where there was no breakdown
What are you saying here? I’ve no clue, genuinely.
Qatar goal, as pointed out earlier, is a number of mistakes right down that left hand side. Once the first player is committed, it’s a domino effect. It’s not excusable, but it’s f all
To do with Kennys midfield system as you’re pointing out.
Likewise the Luxembourg goal, having watched it again there a number of times, I’m inclined to nearly out the blame onto the defence.


because the line is one movement leaving a gap between defenders and midfielders. Is Kenny not telling anyone to sit in front of the CBs and break up play or close down the space ? The person looking for the ball from the centre backs needs to be doing this when out of possession.

Serbia 3rd goal, Luxembourg goal we lose possession - worse, in Serbia it was our central cog that lost possession, when there was no need to lose it. He’ll know it, Kenny will
Know it, and we know it.
It’s very hard when the team is on the front front, especially chasing an equaliser, if possession is lost in that manner.
Cullen and the team was never able to recover the ground properly.

[osarusan]

Travers lob was just him getting caught in no man's land after misjudging whether he could get there before Mitrovic. I wouldn't say the defensive line was a significant factor at all.

Don't remember the Luxembourg one.

[pineapple stu]

It's at 1:00 here (if you really want to watch back to the game!)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGJDYLpD_X8

[Kingdom]

I remember I think it was Shane Long who was kicked up and down the whole match vs Belgium at the euros
Classy teams they are v.good everywhere, but they are crafty at streetwise kicking, at closing down opposition etc etc.

I sense we are too nice to play against.

There’s an element of truth there. But you can be a pig dirty team to play against, without being an absolute thug either.
Molumby - of the current midfield options - is our best spoiler and can use the ball pretty well too. My gut feeling is that if we’re going to play two in the middle, it’s more likely to be a Molumby Knight combination, rather than Cullen Knight or Cullen Molumby.

[seanfhear]

It's at 1:00 here (if you really want to watch back to the game!)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGJDYLpD_X8
There was three defenders in front of Rodriguez there and none of them affected the outcome.

[Kingdom]

It's at 1:00 here (if you really want to watch back to the game!)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGJDYLpD_X8

Yeah that was the clip i rewatched this morning. It refutes Paul’s suggestion rather than strengthens it.

[osarusan]

It's at 1:00 here (if you really want to watch back to the game!)

Smart effort seeing the keeper off his line, don't see it as being connected to a defensive line.

[Stuttgart88]

In the first couple of games under Kenny we got caught very high after losing possession after our own corners.

I don't think either of the goals in last week's qualifiers was a direct result of a high line. The Serbia goal was Travers anticipating an overhit through ball and getting stranded. There was no real danger if he was a few metres deeper. The Lux one was just an opportunistic effort.

If you don't play a highish line you sit deep and invite pressure. If anything, and Matt Holland said this in his Sky commentary on Saturday, we were too deep all game against Lux. This made it impossible to develop any threat further up the pitch.Trying to play possession football in the opposition half comes with the risk that you lose possession and are vulnerable to the counter. But you can't play good possession football if you don't push up the pitch as a unit.

Good teams don't lose the ball cheaply. We lost it cheaply a few times on a Tuesday and gave away four or five good shooting chances as Qatar found it too easy to play between our lines. I think Cullen is good at sniffing out that danger generally and it's something Glenn Whelan did well.

[tetsujin1979]

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