Republic of Ireland V Luxembourg - Saturday, 27th March 2021 - World Cup Qualifier

[Eirambler]

Brian Kerr's contract was not renewed by the FAI when it expired at the end of 2005, it took 15 years before another manager with League of Ireland experience took charge of the national side. It might be longer than that before the next one does.

Being honest, that in itself might not be a bad thing. The Kenny era has shone an unfavourable light on the gap between the LOI and even mid tier European football, never mind the top level. Sometimes the truth hurts but it's better to know it and accept it.

I certainly wouldn't consider myself a League of Ireland man, but no question I really wanted Kenny to succeed. I genuinely thought, despite the defeat against Serbia, that there were green shoots there on Wednesday. I was wrong. Tonight we were back to the dark nights of the Nations League last year and it was horrible to watch.

I had zero expectations of us qualifying for the world cup before the campaign started. To be honest I had zero expectations of us even getting second in the group. I did think we would slip up at some point in the four games against Azerbaijan and Luxembourg, although probably not through a deserved home defeat to Luxembourg. What I wanted to see though was progress on the field, direction and purpose to our play, even if we didn't always get the results. I have to say in nine of the 10 games that Kenny has had I've seen nothing - and in the cold light of day the Serbia game wasn't even that great either. That it was the best of the 10 speaks volumes I think.

I really wanted the Kenny project to work but it's obvious now that it won't. We may well soldier on with him until the autumn but he's already a lame duck manager. Who knows what the future holds from here (I still believe there is hope with the players coming through, though it may take a number of years) but it really would be best for all parties now if the current manager was taken out of the firing line.

[mark12345]

Let's not get carried away. Mick presided over the absolute muck which was the away performance in Georgia and quite a few other underwhelming displays. I love Mick as a person who has a real passion for the Irish cause and I can't forget his performances as a player, but tonight's performance under Stephen Kenny has been a long time coming. We've been outclassed by so-called lesser sides for many years now. Funny enough - we weren't outclassed tonight. The bottom line is we are a nation of defenders who have never put an emphasis on attacking football (even our most memorable years under Jack were built on his making us tough to beat). You can't win games without scoring (it's that way in rugby, GAA, etc). Time for the nation to wake up to that fact.

[tommy_c12000]

Whelan and Lawrenson were stalwarts in one of the best club sides of all time. Both world class players Brady was world class. O'Leary and Stapleton top class players. Moran a very good defender. Not sure if the era you refer to would include Beglin and McGrath, as they more came in the mid 80s. Packie was around as well. So much quality.

Now, we have a few very talented kids. I really like Bazunu, Knight and O'Shea. I like Cullen. Coleman still a very good player and a really great servant. Then a load of lads who have been living on Euro 2016 for years. McClean has great spirit but is a horribly limited player.

The two eras are chalk and cheese.

Yes the two eras are chalk and cheese. The premier league has long since diversified and its less likely Lawrenson, Beglin and Whelan would be playing regularly in a top premier league side. Ditto for Moran, considering the prequisite to have decent distribution from defense in the current era.

The current crop of Irish players are certainly the worst in my 30 years of memory. The FAI is broke, Covid has wreaked havoc on many of the games thus far. Another manager is unlikely to do any better. And we would be unlikely to attract any decent managers given the financial restrictions and the paucity of talent making it an unattractive job. This campaign was always a rebuilding process. Time for Irish supporters to take a step back, take a reality check, and give Kenny until the 2024 campaign. It’s difficult to do, and I’m hurting just as much as anyone else. Let’s be patient and blood in the rest of the players and aim for 2024. Bigger picture and pragmatism called for.

[rebelmusic]

Haven't posted in a while but have been following the team as loyally as ever. We now know we're not going to the world cup. I would take the rest of this campaign as an opportunity to build a team of young players and cap as many young players that are eligible for multiple countries as possible. Imagine where we'd be if grealish and rice were in the team.

Brady, Long, McClean are done, shouldn't be in anymore squads.

The One positive from tonight was Bazuna impressed the heck out of me. Time to stick with the young players and build for the future. But there HAS to be a plan including Kenny eventually handing off a team of young decent footballers to a more experienced manager.

In many ways tonight was the best thing that could have happened to Irish football because we've been farting around for almost 20 years trying to BS our way into tournaments just to pay off some fai debt. Now it's time to build.

[mark12345]

Everything you say Eirambler is correct. And I, like you, want the Kenny project to work. But what is getting lost in all of this is that Stephen Kenny is quite a success as a manager - Dundalk, several LOI league titles, interest from Scotland, taking the U-21's as far as he did and arguably into the Uefa playoffs had he stayed in charge. Stephen Kenny is a manager who has the foresight to try to change the way the Irish team plays football. That takes courage - courage no other manager before him had. Ultimately no one will care and he'll be yesterday's news very soon. And then, we'll be back to square one - being outclassed by lesser teams at the Aviva and complaining about our manager, whoever he may be.

[tetsujin1979]

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. I thought Kerr did well with Ireland, played good football, and if not for that Israeli goalkeeper, we would have been qualified before the Switzerland match.
Here's how the group went - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_%E2%80%93_UEFA_G roup_4
If we had beaten Israel, we'd have been a point ahead of Switzerland going in to that last game, needing to draw or win to finish second. The way things actually went, we needed to win to get into the play offs. The game finished 0-0. He took off Robbie Keane when we needed a goal.
his best performance was the 0-0 draw in Paris. His worst performance was the 0-0 draw with Switzerland.
The highest ranked side he beat in a competitive international were Georgia. They were 84th in the FIFA rankings at the time.
He never scored more than three goals in a game (and only managed that twice)
We were 2-0 up in that game against Israel, when he decided that bringing on Graham Kavanagh for an injured Robbie Keane, and pushing Kevin Kilbane out to the left and Damien Duff up front was better than bringing on Stephen Ellott.
That goalkeeper conned us out of a fair game, Kerr's decisions cost us the win

[mark12345]

I like your analysis. The future has to rest with the youth (obvious enough statement but there is certainly no future in the established international players we have). I would like to think that players eligible for multiple countries would want to play for us, but after tonight........ If Kenny is to be removed by the FAI authorities, I would like them to at least keep him on in some capacity. After all, he developed an U-21 team which almost became the first to qualify for 6he Uefa finals. That experience with the youngsters in Ireland has to count for something going forward.

[brine3]

I posted in a WhatsApp group earlier that a loss would be bigger than just the international side, it's a kick in the teeth for the LOI. Kenny was pushed as the best manager the league had produced, his Dundalk side played the best football, and were the first side to earn a point in the group stages of European club football, but he's clearly not up to management at international level.

I did note at the time of his appointment that there were a few similarities with Brian Kerr's appointment - both came from a League of Ireland background, had a reputation for attention to detail, working with young players, and getting the best out of limited players, coincidentally both also replaced Mick McCarthy. And both were shown to be out of their depth at this level. Kerr had the strongest pool of players available to to an Irish manager since the late 80's, and underachieved massively with them. Kenny has a much weaker set of players to work with but is unable to produce anything with them. Right now he has many clean sheets as goals in his ten games in charge, His team have led their opposition for 22 of the 900 minutes in his reign.

In his first campaign, Kerr took over a team that had lost their first two matches against the top two teams in the group, and our best player of the past 30 years had retired himself from international football. Hardly ideal conditions.

His "massive underachievement" in the next campaign was finishing one point off the playoffs. Keane had come back, but was very much in the twilight of his career. Duff was in his Newcastle phase. Apparently he had to do, because all who were wise told us we were in a weak group with a French side that were "there for the taking". Talk about notions. That French side went on to the World Cup final were they were edged out on pennos.

Kerr's dismissal was very harsh. But Delaney wanted to put his mate Stan in charge. That turned out well.

In Kerr we had a good value, committed, long-term manager.

[tetsujin1979]

In his first campaign, Kerr took over a team that had lost their first two matches against the top two teams in the group, and our best player of the past 30 years had retired himself from international football. Hardly ideal conditionsMcCarthy got no points from the opening two games. Kerr got one point from the same opposition. He needed a last minute winner against Albania at home. Needing a win in the last game away to Switzerland, he lost 2-0.


His "massive underachievement" in the next campaign was finishing one point off the playoffs. We were seeded second in the draw - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA)#Qualifica tion_seeding_(UEFA) - and finished fourth, in a six team group.


Keane had come back, but was very much in the twilight of his career. Duff was in his Newcastle phase. Apparently he had to do, because all who were wise told us we were in a weak group with a French side that were "there for the taking". Talk about notions. That French side went on to the World Cup final were they were edged out on pennos.

Kerr's dismissal was very harsh. But Delaney wanted to put his mate Stan in charge. That turned out well.

In Kerr we had a good value, committed, long-term manager.
We needed a penalty save from Shay Given to save a win in Cyprus in the penultimate game. After scoring 10 goals in the first seven games, we scored one goal in the last three. We surrendered leads to Switzerland and Israel(twice). The three teams ahead of us all scored more than we did. We won four games, beating the two lowest ranked sides in the group twice.

[Eirambler]

The bottom line is we are a nation of defenders who have never put an emphasis on attacking football (even our most memorable years under Jack were built on his making us tough to beat). You can't win games without scoring (it's that way in rugby, GAA, etc). Time for the nation to wake up to that fact.

I agree with a lot of this. But at the end of the day you have to play to your strengths. We are indeed a nation of defenders. The best players we have currently are defenders and many of the best players we have coming through are defenders too. So ultimately, the way we are most likely to succeed is to get ourselves back to being rock solid at the back and do the best we can with what we have from midfield forward. That doesn't mean we need to play hoof ball again for the next 20 years, but as a middle of the road European nation, if we are secure at the back first and foremost we'll often eke out enough going forward to get us results against better teams and avoid embarrassing nights like tonight against poorer teams. As we have shown in the past that's a combination that can get us to major finals. There's a middle ground between what Kenny has tried to do and what MON, Trap etc tried to do - we need to find it.

I think the Kenny experiment was an itch that many of us, myself included, needed to scratch. But having seen it in action for 10 games we need to accept that it's not a runner at this point in time. Maybe we can revisit it in the future if we have better players. But I think we need a back to basics approach for the time being, depressing a thought as that is.

[SkStu]

It hurts me and it saddens me as I so badly wanted him to succeed.

Kenny failed tonight. His in-game management was a complete and utter disaster. He may be sacked (unlikely), he may walk (unlikely) and we’ll do the same boom/bust thinking from one manager to the next, one average set of players to the next, but make no mistake:

As a footballing nation, we are EXACTLY where we DESERVE to be.

Ole, Ole, Ole.

[brine3]

Traditionally we've actually been a country with very good central midfielders. Not any longer. Therein lies the problem.

[Razors left peg]

I'm still too sickened to even put coherent thoughts together about the match. Possibly the lowest I've ever felt as an Ireland fan. I've been a massive supporter of Kenny but there's no defending that performance. There's no mitigating circumstances that you can cling to.

But I will say the glee of the "I told you so" comments on here by some people is disgusting. Some almost seem happy with the result so they can say they were right about Kenny. I seriously don't understand people at times

[Fixer82]

In Kenny’s defence, I didn’t think he got the tactics that wrong.
But he can’t make players pass it to feet. How many times was a pass played slightly behind a player, thus breaking the momentum of the move? This has been an issue in Irish soccer for a few years now.

How many times did we give the ball away, especially in first half, with a sloppy pass 4 yard pass?
That’s the players’ fault, not Kenny’s.

I’m not saying all is rosy but the players have to take as much criticism as the manager for last night.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

It really is a new low. We got to hope this brings around massive change in structures so we can develop higher quality players for the future. As for now, I don't see how Kenny can continue in his role after that. Yes our players aren't top level but Luxembourg are hardly world beaters. They were just better coached, better organised, they had a plan, everyone knew their roles. We were outclassed by Luxembourg on the pitch and on the sideline.

It hurts because we all wanted Kenny to succeed. A manager who is positive about our players and wants to play attractively. A LOI man as well. But he's way out of his depth. I think some people's criticism of previous regimes may have to be revised. Some of the stuff under McCarthy was hard to watch but he had us close to qualifying with basically the same players. The thing is we don't have to go back to the long ball tactics of previous managers, we can play a progressive style but we need to hire a manager who's capable of implementing it. Money might be an issue here but one things for sure, Kenny has shown that he's not competent at this level and we need someone new.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

In Kenny’s defence, I didn’t think he got the tactics that wrong.
But he can’t make players pass it to feet. How many times was a pass played slightly behind a player, thus breaking the momentum of the move? This has been an issue in Irish soccer for a few years now.

How many times did we give the ball away, especially in first half, with a sloppy pass 4 yard pass?
That’s the players’ fault, not Kenny’s.

I’m not saying all is rosy but the players have to take as much criticism as the manager for last night.

Previous managers claimed our players weren't capable of playing a different style than keeping it tight and playing more directly. Have they been vindicated?

[Fixer82]

Previous managers claimed our players weren't capable of playing a different style than keeping it tight and playing more directly. Have they been vindicated?

Probably somewhat.
It’s sad that professional footballers can’t get the ball directly to feet with a 5 yard pass. I’ve noticed it for years in Irish football that when a pass is played, under no pressure, the receiver often has to check his run or run slightly back for the ball. Kills momentum.

Luxembourg were well organised and up for it. That’s all they needed

[ifk101]

The midfield 3 dynamic didn't work. Knight took on Cullen's role (less effectively) and Cullen looked lost as his natural instinct was to fall positional deep and do what Knight was doing. Resulted in a lot of sideways passing between the two, and killed forward momentum. Moot point in the context of the result.

Not sure if Kenny should go or not, as the culpability for last night's result is not solely his - it's years of neglect and short-termism.

[Bungle]

Yes the two eras are chalk and cheese. The premier league has long since diversified and its less likely Lawrenson, Beglin and Whelan would be playing regularly in a top premier league side. Ditto for Moran, considering the prequisite to have decent distribution from defense in the current era.

The current crop of Irish players are certainly the worst in my 30 years of memory. The FAI is broke, Covid has wreaked havoc on many of the games thus far. Another manager is unlikely to do any better. And we would be unlikely to attract any decent managers given the financial restrictions and the paucity of talent making it an unattractive job. This campaign was always a rebuilding process. Time for Irish supporters to take a step back, take a reality check, and give Kenny until the 2024 campaign. It’s difficult to do, and I’m hurting just as much as anyone else. Let’s be patient and blood in the rest of the players and aim for 2024. Bigger picture and pragmatism called for.

It was harder to get in that Liverpool team than the current one. A wonderful team. Lawrenson was one of the best defenders of his era. World class no doubt and he came through at Preston. Whelan edged another great player in Sheedy to replace Ray Kennedy. That Liverpool team was tactically and technically better than anything on the continent for probably 8-10 years before Heysel. Whelan was a better version of Wijnaldum. Klopp would have loved him. Curtis Jones shows that there remains a pathway for top talent at Liverpool.

[Paddy Garcia]

In Kenny’s defence, I didn’t think he got the tactics that wrong.
But he can’t make players pass it to feet. How many times was a pass played slightly behind a player, thus breaking the momentum of the move? This has been an issue in Irish soccer for a few years now.

How many times did we give the ball away, especially in first half, with a sloppy pass 4 yard pass?
That’s the players’ fault, not Kenny’s.

I’m not saying all is rosy but the players have to take as much criticism as the manager for last night.

I do think Kenny got the tactics wrong and Luxembourg had a better plan. That's not to do with the players. Also inane substitutions saw a deteriotation in the performance.

A general lack of hunger amongst the players is down to them - and also Kenny. I think Luxembourg wanted it more.

[elroy]

Is this the lowest point supporting Ireland in the past 40 years?!! It feels that way. Mainly because this is a culmination, not an isolated shock. If we had a competitive game next week, I would not be confident we’d get a positive reaction.

I was heartened by the Serbia game.
Although one particular feature of both games bothers me - when the need to change things came, the changes were ineffective/horribly ineffective. I thought the first half was ok tonight. However, if felt like time and time again we’d get the ball out to the wingbacks and then the move broke down. The next ball was rarely creative. Maybe a system change was needed but we needed to find a way to make the next phase positive. The changes made actually brought us back. Brady did very little, Browne’s impact went backwards....looked like he was out of position. I could go on.....

Lots wrong with tonight but in game management and lack of insight/flexibility to change is one of of many worries

[pineapple stu]

Where do we go now? Gotta hope Brexit sends our youth to Europe and they develop as players there rather than in lower levels in England.
I think to go down this route would show we've learnt absolutely nothing from the past 20 years.

We can't rely on other countries to develop our players. Doesn't matter if that country is England or Spain or Luxembourg.

A country our size has to have a proper domestic setup to develop players up to the age of 21/22. Most other countries do. We don't. That's a huge issue.

Rovers in fairness to them are starting to put in a place a proper academy structure and they're starting to reap the benefits of that (as is the national team)

Dundalk, the other big side here at the moment, haven't put anything in place with their Euro millions and are now signing whatever random foreigners they can find. It's their money of course, and unlike most LoI sides they've actually earned it, but it's foundations of sand and will go nowhere in the medium term. Cork have already gone down that route it seems.

Every other country in Europe uses its domestic league to develop players for its national team. We don't. We instead have a 19th-century league structure which encourages big fish in small ponds. The league has no money, the FAI have no money, and the general public have no interest. While that stays, we're going to continue going backwards.

Sending players to Spain instead of England won't change that.

[lofty9]

I think to go down this route would show we've learnt absolutely nothing from the past 20 years.

We can't rely on other countries to develop our players. Doesn't matter if that country is England or Spain or Luxembourg.

A country our size has to have a proper domestic setup to develop players up to the age of 21/22. Most other countries do. We don't. That's a huge issue.

Rovers in fairness to them are starting to put in a place a proper academy structure and they're starting to reap the benefits of that (as is the national team)

Dundalk, the other big side here at the moment, haven't put anything in place with their Euro millions and are now signing whatever random foreigners they can find. It's their money of course, and unlike most LoI sides they've actually earned it, but it's foundations of sand and will go nowhere in the medium term. Cork have already gone down that route it seems.

Every other country in Europe uses its domestic league to develop players for its national team. We don't. We instead have a 19th-century league structure which encourages big fish in small ponds. The league has no money, the FAI have no money, and the general public have no interest. While that stays, we're going to continue going backwards.

Sending players to Spain instead of England won't change that.

Agree, but I'm looking towards the next 10 years. I'm just hoping Brexit means that more kids can go to teams around the continent and play in champions league games. The way UK football is now with wealth is the death knell of our national team. Every kid is competing with the best in the world. That didn't happen with Whelan, Lawrenson, Brady Etc. The longer term project you and I want, will only happen after the death of everyone who has registered on this forum- it will take that long!

The fact that Shamrock Rovers and every other clubs remit is to sell these players to get income. Damian Duff at Rovers now Shelbourne, Paddy Mccourt, and Colin Healy tell the kids that they will have them over on England, worst case scenario if they apply themselves that they will be playing football as a career in Ireland. Cork have a fantastic set up, but again their kids are getting cherry picked. They work with agents hand in hand like best friends. Working in youth football myself I've lost faith in the vulturism of the new underage LOI format and have seen our own players getting trials at Celtic weeks after joining the Derry academy. The youth academies are not there to provide for first team football in Ireland. The league in its current format has already produced a lot of international players, but via England. Project oblivion needs the stadia sorted and the passion of those who support the national side toward supporting a national league. All the FAI's fault to date but who's going to change that? Who's going to invest 100s of millions in Ireland's National Football League, to rebrand, market, broadcast and build it and take it to a level of say the Belgian or Austrian league? Would you take the MLS standard? Look at the cost of that to get to where its at. Bottom line, our goose is cooked!

[pineapple stu]

Most top European clubs aim to sell players though. Not at 16, but at 21/22 when they've broken into the first team and maybe have some European experience under their belts.

The league has produced remarkably few international players. Fewer than most domestic leagues across Europe.

Don't agree it's entirely the FAI's fault - the general football public is to blame too for ignoring the domestic league - but certainly the FAI have had their priorities very wrong for a long time. And yeah, it's not going to change any time soon. Spanish, Italian, German and French leagues also have wealth and an Irish player is going to have a lot to compete with there too. Plus a language barrier of course.

[Bungle]

Agree, but I'm looking towards the next 10 years. I'm just hoping Brexit means that more kids can go to teams around the continent and play in champions league games. The way UK football is now with wealth is the death knell of our national team. Every kid is competing with the best in the world. That didn't happen with Whelan, Lawrenson, Brady Etc. The longer term project you and I want, will only happen after the death of everyone who has registered on this forum- it will take that long!

The fact that Shamrock Rovers and every other clubs remit is to sell these players to get income. Damian Duff at Rovers now Shelbourne, Paddy Mccourt, and Colin Healy tell the kids that they will have them over on England, worst case scenario if they apply themselves that they will be playing football as a career in Ireland. Cork have a fantastic set up, but again their kids are getting cherry picked. They work with agents hand in hand like best friends. Working in youth football myself I've lost faith in the vulturism of the new underage LOI format and have seen our own players getting trials at Celtic weeks after joining the Derry academy. The youth academies are not there to provide for first team football in Ireland. The league in its current format has already produced a lot of international players, but via England. Project oblivion needs the stadia sorted and the passion of those who support the national side toward supporting a national league. All the FAI's fault to date but who's going to change that? Who's going to invest 100s of millions in Ireland's National Football League, to rebrand, market, broadcast and build it and take it to a level of say the Belgian or Austrian league? Would you take the MLS standard? Look at the cost of that to get to where its at. Bottom line, our goose is cooked!

A lot of very good points.

What I would say is that players like Whelan, Lawrenson and Brady would break through today no problem at any of the top clubs. They may have to go on a loan first but I've no doubt that their class would shine through. The players we are producing are nowhere what we used to produce. The coaching here was often poor back then, but kids played street football so their technical ability wasn't as behind.

I am actually hopeful for the longer term future. Rovers and Bohs have a very good academy system. We have a very strong cohort of players aged about 19. Bazunu, Knight, O'Shea and Nathan Collins are very good for their age. Molumby, Idah and Parrott haven't kicked on, but a good chance that they may ultimately become important players for us. Parrott is the most concerning because his potential ceiling is very high. What we do need is a few years of similar quality to that 2002 age group. The lads aged about 16 with Heffernan and Zefi do look very promising. That Evan Ferguson is a very good talent too. Unfortunately, bigger countries have a few Fergusons or Zefis every age group, whereas we far more reliant on a generational talent. You see how Wales have benefited from Bale and Ramsey.

I think people are naive thinking it would be great if our players went to say Atalanta rather than Liverpool or United. Maybe clubs that on paper are easier to get through because they are smaller clubs, but with homesickness, it will be probably harder for young lads to make it on the continent. The key will be sending our players to England or the continent when they are 19 or 20 and have a bit more life experience.

I think the next four years will be very depressing personally though because Kenny isn't up to scratch and until we have a team with a decent enough quality in it, very few managers will want to manage us.

[paul_oshea]

I think to go down this route would show we've learnt absolutely nothing from the past 20 years.

We can't rely on other countries to develop our players. Doesn't matter if that country is England or Spain or Luxembourg.

A country our size has to have a proper domestic setup to develop players up to the age of 21/22. Most other countries do. We don't. That's a huge issue.

Rovers in fairness to them are starting to put in a place a proper academy structure and they're starting to reap the benefits of that (as is the national team)

Dundalk, the other big side here at the moment, haven't put anything in place with their Euro millions and are now signing whatever random foreigners they can find. It's their money of course, and unlike most LoI sides they've actually earned it, but it's foundations of sand and will go nowhere in the medium term. Cork have already gone down that route it seems.

Every other country in Europe uses its domestic league to develop players for its national team. We don't. We instead have a 19th-century league structure which encourages big fish in small ponds. The league has no money, the FAI have no money, and the general public have no interest. While that stays, we're going to continue going backwards.

Sending players to Spain instead of England won't change that.

I think its an interesting argument, dismissing Dundalk out of hand, i see two things potentially going along a path trying to reach similar goals but going about it differently. If the Americans are willing to stay in and dig in for 10 years, the marketing sides of things could reap benefits. They still need to invest of course in underage and playing structures, but i can see where they are going with it from a purely business model point of view.

[pineapple stu]

Dundalk need to reach European groups in the next 3 years or their money is gone. It would have been gone this year only for a fortuituous qualification route. They have no business model other than trying to reach the groups. That's really not great.

Rovers' business model is based around selling players and reinvesting the proceeds. Same as lots of top teams around Europe. That's sustainable.

[Insidetherock]

Ok, what a shjtshow. Should SK stay to save money and develop players etc or should FAI get some merchant in to maximise results in the short term and arrest decline?

The key to that question is answering where our rock bottom is? We have no god given right to be 2nd or 3rd seeds in group qualifying. Could we spiral to a level of 3rd/4th seeds and hope of major tournament qualification be as remote as ever? How bad does anyone know do our results have to be before we drop to the tier of Bulgaria, Hungary, Moldova etc???

If a drop to that level is imminent, then sorry you hire a Big Sam horses for courses merchant and arrest decline. Not talk about developing young lads as if international football is a project with a safety net and no long term negative outcomes.

I really wanted SK project to succeed. REALLY wanted it. But sorry, its gone.

Next step is huge. If SK can develop the squad without threat of us plummeting through the seedings then, provided players are on board, I'm happy. If any of that is at risk..... Adios

What difference does "plummeting through the seedings" make once you're in Pot 3 anyway.

You think it's easier as a T3 team than T5?

[Trequartista20]

As to whether it's the our worst ever result, having thought about it, I think the 1995 0-0 draw with Liechtenstein was similarly execrable.

So inevitable did victory seem that Jack didn't even bother to take charge of the first match, which we won 4-0 in Dublin, because he was scouting other opponents, and Setters was at the helm in his stead.

The 1996 European Championship Qualifiers was Liechtenstein's debut appearance in competitive competition, as well. The following year they conceded 11 at home to Macedonia.

Anyway last night's humiliation was certainly our worst home result in history.

[paul_oshea]

Very quiet on here today. Some very sheepish lads I imagine, no one should feel embarrassed it's an opinions based forum!

[paul_oshea]

Dundalk need to reach European groups in the next 3 years or their money is gone. It would have been gone this year only for a fortuituous qualification route. They have no business model other than trying to reach the groups. That's really not great.

Rovers' business model is based around selling players and reinvesting the proceeds. Same as lots of top teams around Europe. That's sustainable.

Arrrgh went to edit and I deleted my reply here. Can't be bothered again. Their model is not so one dimensional.

[Real ale Madrid]

Very quiet on here today. Some very sheepish lads I imagine, no one should feel embarrassed it's an opinions based forum!

Come out lads - our resident 'expert' says its ok!

[seanfhear]

Not that it is much of an excuse but didn’t the Luxembourg manager rotate most of his team from the friendly against Qatar !

Two competitive games so close together was beyond us. I suppose this should not be a factor against Luxembourg but that is where we are now ! !

[pineapple stu]

As to whether it's the our worst ever result, having thought about it, I think the 1995 0-0 draw with Liechtenstein was similarly execrable.
.
I think last night was worse. Liechtenstein was a freak result in a way - 40 shots and 20 corners or something like that. An inspired keeper and a ball that just wouldn't go in.

It was bad - the infamous lack of a Plan B of course - but last night was worse in my view because we were so flat and forced what - one save out of the keeper? Luxembourg aren't Liechtenstein - though they did lose to them in a friendly last year - but the performance was worse for me

[pineapple stu]

Arrrgh went to edit and I deleted my reply here. Can't be bothered again. Their model is not so one dimensional.
It is though. They've made bugger all money out of transfer fees and shot themselves in the foot by resigning those players for free, a sure-fire way to devalue your current squad.

The Dundalk model is the quick-fix solution Irish football has been fixated on for decades (see Shels, Bohs and Drogs before them) It's bust.

[John83]

The One positive from tonight was Bazuna impressed the heck out of me. Time to stick with the young players and build for the future. But there HAS to be a plan including Kenny eventually handing off a team of young decent footballers to a more experienced manager.
I've read that a few times since last night. I'm a little surprised. I thought he did fine, and wasn't at fault for the goal, but he dropped the ball twice. I'd be very nervous playing him against Portugal, for example.

[Real ale Madrid]

As to whether it's the our worst ever result, having thought about it, I think the 1995 0-0 draw with Liechtenstein was similarly execrable.

So inevitable did victory seem that Jack didn't even bother to take charge of the first match, which we won 4-0 in Dublin, because he was scouting other opponents, and Setters was at the helm in his stead.

The 1996 European Championship Qualifiers was Liechtenstein's debut appearance in competitive competition, as well. The following year they conceded 11 at home to Macedonia.

Anyway last night's humiliation was certainly our worst home result in history.

Bad results happen in football.

McCarthy lost in Macedonia and was generally awful for a year or so but we stuck with him and reaped some bit of a reward. I hope we do the same with SK. I still think there is something there with this team and I think he can be a success. I thought we played well in Serbia and were unlucky in Slovakia. I think you can disregard the Nations League this time around. Managers need time. I hope he gets it anyway. Last night was a disaster but I think there is a little underestimating of the Luxemburg outfit everywhere. Its a bit disrespectful to them. I reckon there is another big result in them and lets see how Serbia fare in Azerbaijan after 2 big games in 3 days.

On the game I just think the injuries told on the team much more than the Serbian game. Lads like Cullen, Robinson and Browne are decent players but are just not consistent enough for international football. Went completely missing in the second half. others tried but there were too many gaps trying to piece together attacks and even defend cohesively. On the plus ledger O'Shea and Knight look like they are going to backbone the team into the future. I'm just not going to judge eras based on one bad night. I like the way SK has us playing and I think its more sustainable long term than the boot bollock and bite that sometimes gets us over the line on the international stage.

I find it gas people on social media taking such a keen interest in the FAI and the workings of underage footballing structures with "Diehard Liverpool fan" in their bio. We are all entitled to an opinion of course but its just grating on the back of a devastating night.

[EAFC_rdfl]

Very quiet on here today. Some very sheepish lads I imagine, no one should feel embarrassed it's an opinions based forum!

Yawn!

[Fixer82]

Players have to take criticism for the play.
Kenny has to take criticism for the tactics and formation.

As the game continued at 0-0 it was getting worse.

If Collins’ effort had gone in I think we’d have settled and been ok.
But the players probably got more nervy as it went on.

It’s dismal no matter which way you look a at it

[paul_oshea]

I've read that a few times since last night. I'm a little surprised. I thought he did fine, and wasn't at fault for the goal, but he dropped the ball twice. I'd be very nervous playing him against Portugal, for example.

I thought coleman saved his neck once as well. Like Kelleher though his feet are very good and good with keeping the ball moving. That seems to be the shift of focus for keepers nowadays, which to me is just an attribute, an important one, but the core fundamentals are shot stopping, good in the air etc. You don't see that in a game like last night, and you certainly don't recognise it after one game.

[pineapple stu]

I thought coleman saved his neck once as well
When Coleman was fouled on the corner of the box in the second half, and Bazunu had come charging out? Definitely. If the forward had had a small bit more pace, he'd have beaten Coleman to the ball and then Bazunu was in no-man's-land.

He had a solid game, but then Luxembourg weren't putting us under the pressure Serbia were. I think it was Stutts who said if we were losing to Luxembourg, we had more to worry about than our keeper, and he's right. The big problems were at the other end of the pitch.

[Straightstory]

Truth is, that Luxembourg game could have gone either way. It's a fine margin a lot of the time, and Kenny has been very unlucky. However, his record is atrocious. Cannot see any other options for manager at the moment. Stick with Kenny and, who knows, we may be more hopeful by this time next year. This has to be the lowest point, surely.

[Stuttgart88]

Knight took on Cullen's role (less effectively) and Cullen looked lost as his natural instinct was to fall positional deep and do what Knight was doing.i didn't really notice that. If that's what it was its criminal. Knight likes to attack space going forward, Cullen does the neat and tidy stuff from deep. I thought each was really off colour. That'd explain why.

[Stuttgart88]

I've read that a few times since last night. I'm a little surprised. I thought he did fine, and wasn't at fault for the goal, but he dropped the ball twice. I'd be very nervous playing him against Portugal, for example.
It's a bit of both in my opinion. His body language and general demeanour was very positive and confident. And some of what he did he did very well. But I think he got lucky with the save with his foot. It was hit straight at where his foot was already planted having left a big gap between his legs. He came for a ball that was never his to come for (Coleman bailed him out) and he nearly got done like a kipper from that direct free kick in the second half where he had positioned himself for a cross. Better execution and he'd have had as much egg on his face as Travers had on Wednesday. It was still a promising debut though. He looks like he thinks he belongs out there. I don't think Travers did.

[seanfhear]

It's a bit of both in my opinion. His body language and general demeanour was very positive and confident. And some of what he did he did very well. But I think he got lucky with the save with his foot. It was hit straight at where his foot was already planted having left a big gap between his legs. He came for a ball that was never his to come for (Coleman bailed him out) and he nearly got done like a kipper from that direct free kick in the second half where he had positioned himself for a cross. Better execution and he'd have had as much egg on his face as Travers had on Wednesday. It was still a promising debut though. He looks like he thinks he belongs out there. I don't think Travers did.
In fairness we have three great possibilities on the goalkeeping front. We would want to be very unlucky for one of them Not to become a Good Class of a Goal-Keeper.

[tetsujin1979]

I mentioned a few things after the Serbia game, and after the 2 or 3rd game, that both cunningham and sadlier pointed out last night. I can't be bothered
going through them to be honest. One thing that hasn't been mentioned though is our midfield isnt good enough for 3 at the back, and our defending is
generally too sloppy in moments throughout the game to actually play 3. It all seems pointless and futile at this point.
You should bother Paul. You really should.

[DCWA]

Who cares about losing folks? We aren’t going to Qat_ar anyway let us embrace defeat and get our quote of suffering out of the way now.

[mark12345]

Glad to see names from the past being mentioned by someone earlier - Lawrenson, Beglin, Whelan. Because we really need to go back in history to try to solve the current problems. Hopefully, a few on here can remember back to the Johnny Giles era. I remember standing on the terraces at Lansdowne and cursing Giles. My angst was due to Giles's penchant for playing possession football or trying to at least. We were slow and deliberate and other continental sides were years ahead of us in their development. Giles knew what he wanted to do, but could not implement his plan and no manager since has tried to get an Irish team to play proper football. That is until Stephen Kenny, 45 years later. Looks like Kenny will fail just like Giles. In my opinion, the reason neither man can implement possession football in their teams is that our players have never been taught technique and close control in crowded areas of the pitch, because there was no Irish coach ever taught that himself and consequently he could not teach that to his players. And the 64K question is, what Irish coach today is versed in those methods? Answer there isn't anybody. I have offered a solution on here for many years, and that is for the FAI to employ several developmental coaches for our kids, from areas that have historically played proper constructive football (South America for example). Stephen Kenny may not be long more in the job, but ultimately he is a lot smarter than most fans who keep calling for a change of manager and totally ignore the problems which beset Irish football.

[pineapple stu]

The thing I don't understand though is how did Kenny manage it with Dundalk against better sides in Europe? Or how did UCD manage it against better sides in Europe? There's a clip from our game in Bratislava where we put together 23 successive passes over two minutes and very nearly scored at the end of it. That's a part-time team against a team of internationals (albeit down to ten men) Why can't the full-time national team manage it against what should, on paper anyway, be slightly weaker opposition?

Are our players too pigeon-holed in England as strong defender, midfield enforcer, etc?

[Razors left peg]

7 and ½ years ago Norn Iron lost 3 2 to Luxembourg. 2 years later they qualified for the Euros. Did he go 18 games without a win or something after he took over?

My immediate thoughts on waking up this morning is I don't see that changing the manager will help this time. I think this result has been coming for a while. McCarthy got out of jail away to Gibraltar in a terrible performance against a much worse team. Not to excuse it, but this is a Luxembourg team that drew with France in Paris and have players playing at decent clubs around Europe. They are not the butcher, baker and candlestick maker players that they used to be.

That being said I can't get over the substitutions last night. This is where Kenny lost me. But it also shows that we absolutely 100% have to move on from the more "experienced" players. McClean, Brady and Long were all disgraceful when they came on, as was Hendrick against Serbia. We need to cut bait with these players now. This means we are going to have to go with players who are not ready and some who might never be. Wales did this with players pulled from youth and reserve teams in the hope that the international experience will help them at club level. We have a bumpy road ahead but we have no choice now. These so called experienced players have failed under multiple managers.

I