Belgian clubs vote for merger with Dutch League

[EatYerGreens]

A very interesting development yesterday as Belgian football clubs voted to merge with the Dutch league.

There's still much to be done before thr BeNe league is a reality, but it is starting to feel like only a matter of time now. And once one set of small neighbouring leagues in Europe combines, others will doubtless follow.

Has implications for us re the All-Ireland League idea.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/belgian-clubs-vote-merge-dutch-league-b1818031.html?amp

[Nesta99]

A few thoughts EYG, as you know in much better detail the circumstances of this and id be intersted in your opinion and maybe could banish my skepticism. It's interesting all right. Not just for a potential All-Ireland league but if UEFA sanction it its a precedence that they would have been reluctant to set, and at a time where there are threats about players being restricted from international football if the big clubs head toward a European super league. Does it start the blurring the lines between different national associations and leagues and something that UEFA feared and wanted to head off with the restructuring of the CL, qualification on the basis of historical performances and allowing an elite group permanent access regardless of domestic performance etc. That flies in the face of a national association allocating European slots?

The lines were already blurred for an all-island league here, politically where eg there may have been pressure to allow something that would help underpin a peace process. This is different and about creating a league that could be have more financial clout and hence competitiveness in Europe, along with then the finances filtering down and all under the guise of financial stability for all.

Is it more Belgian driven? As things stand couldnt both leagues' clubs cut their cloth to improve stability. They are relatively well supported leagues, are not niche in their own countries, have good stadia and established brands etc. Like any league these vary from haves to have not clubs of course. Should regional European leagues be given a sniff due to the risks longer term risks eg a Celtic league minus the Old Firm?

Larger leagues are operating unsustainably where its a matter of time before clubs implode and rebalancing happens. The pressure clubs are putting on UEFA I think indicates that some are very worried, so UEFA could take a stance and reel in some of the clubs' clout. This pandemic is possibly a catalyst were even the EPL wobbled with TV deals not being fulfilled for a spell. Barcelona 1billion in debt, wages at 75% of budget and an aging key asset that's out of contract soon etc. Maybe before sanctioning something thats pretty radical for UEFA applying things like salary cap protocols, taking action on issues like crazy player wages. The more money in the Dutch/Belgian game the more they will spend themselves back in to trouble eventually. Not a reason not to head this direction but that its another sticking plaster on much wider issues?

[Kiki Balboa]

A very interesting development yesterday as Belgian football clubs voted to merge with the Dutch league.

There's still much to be done before thr BeNe league is a reality, but it is starting to feel like only a matter of time now. And once one set of small neighbouring leagues in Europe combines, others will doubtless follow.

Has implications for us re the All-Ireland League idea.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/belgian-clubs-vote-merge-dutch-league-b1818031.html?amp


What is most interesting here for an All-Ireland league is how the European spots will be divided and how many they look for.

[sbgawa]

What is most interesting here for an All-Ireland league is how the European spots will be divided and how many they look for.

This 100% if UEFA leave the same number of spots the AIL will become a reality sooner rather than later.

[GUFCghost]

It feels a lot like rearranging the chairs on the titanic.
The fundamental problem is the same one in every other industry. There's too much money at the top and it's not be distributed at the bottom. We could have properly competetive European football again like we did in the 90s if we charged higher affiliation fees for big clubs or dramatically changed how prize money is distributed, but that won't happen. The big clubs will just take their ball and leave, and I'm not sure why they haven't just done that already. What follows is all just idle speculation till that gets sorted:

I wonder what clubs have had their potential held back by a lack of decent competition. A Nordic league might turn FC Copenhagen into the next Ajax through higher revenue and exposure to better teams week in week out.

The thought in Ireland always turns to an All-Island league, I think a Celtic league is also worth thinking about. It might be unlikely, but I think a league between Scotland, Ireland and Wales could be great. Especially if the Welsh clubs playing in England are involved. If the Irish clubs raise their game to meet the Welsh and the Scots, it could be highly beneficial for both Ireland and Wales. A club like Swansea would have to choose between the odd 5 year spell in the Premier League, or basically permanent status in a league of similar standard to the championship. The old firm would be tougher to convince, their big fish small pond status could be gone.

[pineapple stu]

A league with Swansea, Cardiff, Hearts, Dundee, League of Wales, Irish League and LoI teams is in no way even remotely comparable to the Championship.

[GUFCghost]

A league with Swansea, Cardiff, Hearts, Dundee, League of Wales, Irish League and LoI teams is in no way even remotely comparable to the Championship.

Swansea
Cardiff
Rangers
Celtic
Motherwell
Aberdeen
Shamrock Rovers
Dundalk
Linfield
Aberdeen

There's a ten team league that I'd say is fairly comparable to the Championship. A qualification system could be devised that weighs the first league heavily toward teams from Scotland, with promotion/relegation balancing it out from there

[EatYerGreens]

Swansea
Cardiff
Rangers
Celtic
Motherwell
Aberdeen
Shamrock Rovers
Dundalk
Linfield
Aberdeen

There's a ten team league that I'd say is fairly comparable to the Championship. A qualification system could be devised that weighs the first league heavily toward teams from Scotland, with promotion/relegation balancing it out from there

Given that Northern clubs complain about the thought of having to go to Cork or Waterford once a season for a game, the idea of them having to step on a plane for every other away fixture makes this suggestion a very expensive non-starter.

Plus - Swansea and Cardiff regularly vie for entry into the English Premier League - which is an absolute goldmine. Why the hell would they want to give that up to play in Dundalk or Aberdeen ?

As for the Scottish clubs - the idea of including Motherwell (shi-te this season) and not either of the Edinburgh clubs is just silly.

Not that it matters as this won't be happening for any foreseeable future. An all-island league is hard enough to get going as it is.

[Bucket]

Besides, Bohs could never justify the air travel

[pineapple stu]

Swansea
Cardiff
Rangers
Celtic
Motherwell
Aberdeen
Shamrock Rovers
Dundalk
Linfield
Aberdeen

There's a ten team league that I'd say is fairly comparable to the Championship.
Not even remotely close. The Championship is one of the best-attended leagues in the world. There are huge TV deals and parachute payments to fund clubs. You don't drop out of that to play Linfield FFS. None of the bottom six teams in that would stand the slightest chance in the Championship.

[John83]

Not even remotely close. The Championship is one of the best-attended leagues in the world. There are huge TV deals and parachute payments to fund clubs. You don't drop out of that to play Linfield FFS. None of the bottom six teams in that would stand the slightest chance in the Championship.
With more money in a unified league, the standard would come up somewhat, but I agree. Transport costs make this Celtic league unlikely to be viable.

That said, if UEFA open Pandora's box here, there could be a race to mergers among smaller leagues across Europe. Scale is what's required to compete with the bigger leagues.

[pineapple stu]

That's a huge chicken and egg scenario though. The money might arrive if Swansea/Celtic/Rangers/Cardiff join. But if they don't join, the money won't be there, so there's no point joining.

I think mergers will only really work if the leagues are a comparable size (like Belgium/Holland, or Czech Republic/Slovakia, or maybe some of the Balkans) The disparity between the clubs in this example is way too large to work. The LoI has nothing to offer the bigger Scottish/Welsh sides.

[sbgawa]

Wouldn't it be a great conversation over a pint in a Pub.

[Longfordian]

That's a huge chicken and egg scenario though. The money might arrive if Swansea/Celtic/Rangers/Cardiff join. But if they don't join, the money won't be there, so there's no point joining.

I think mergers will only really work if the leagues are a comparable size (like Belgium/Holland, or Czech Republic/Slovakia, or maybe some of the Balkans) The disparity between the clubs in this example is way too large to work. The LoI has nothing to offer the bigger Scottish/Welsh sides.

Aside from its general #greatestleagueintheworld escapades of course.

[Buller]

I think mergers will only really work if the leagues are a comparable size (like Belgium/Holland, or Czech Republic/Slovakia, or maybe some of the Balkans) The disparity between the clubs in this example is way too large to work. The LoI has nothing to offer the bigger Scottish/Welsh sides.

I'd disagree with that. Any initial disparity can be mostly overcome within years of joining a cross-border league, regardless of the delta. With all clubs receiving the same millions in prizemoney, we'd would quickly catch up. Ireland has big population centres which equates to big potential. We're a football mad country which currently imports it all. There's enormous potential waiting to be unlocked!

Its worth noting that the current Belgian Pro League and Dutch Eredivisie TV deals signed recently are worth about €90-100m each. The TV money projected to be on offer from a new BeNe league featuring the top 8-10 sides from each is roughly €400m.

The interest and value doesn't project as linearly as you would expect. Even pessimistically. cross-border/celtic league would generate more than the current sum of its current constituents. Mergers always work, regardless of size. Market forces seem to dictate it.

[pineapple stu]

Linfield, Rovers, etc could catch up in a decade if given a few million quid each a year, sure.

But the point is that at the moment the disparity is so large that there's no way Swansea/Cardiff/Rangers/Celtic would bother getting into bed together, and that's a huge stumbling block.

It's why I think it'll work better with leagues that are more closely aligned (and/or have some existing rivalry, maybe from having been the same country in Communist times).

[Buller]

But the point is that at the moment the disparity is so large that there's no way Swansea/Cardiff/Rangers/Celtic would bother getting into bed together, and that's a huge stumbling block.



Yeah they all definitely have a fixed focus on the Premier League promised land.

The old Atlantic League proposal with (Scotland + Norway + Sweden + Denmark + Ireland) would be the only thing that would tempt Celtic/Rangers. And with that, Ireland would probably only be given 1 or 2 places. Don't know how much benefit that would be to us unless the LOI got a solidarity payoff every year from it.

I do think cross-border leagues are the obvious way forward for small and medium european leagues finding it increasingly harder to compete with the top leagues. IL + LOI would have definitely worked financially, off the field is another matter. Celtic/Rangers may be forced into something other than trying to join the EPL if BeNe league comes to pass.

[pineapple stu]

That sounds more reasonable alright, although I don't really see what even Rovers/Dundalk could offer an Atlantic League. Remember there was a Royal League for three years (DEN/SWE/NOR) and it was cancelled for lack of funding. Saying the IL/LoI would "definitely have worked financially" is something I wouldn't be too sure about given the figures being talked about - I could easily see it going the same way and then there's big problems (though I agree with the idea in general)

[Buller]

Cups like these demonstrate very little.

Royal League was basically their Setanta Cup, a cup competition characterised by a very low prizemoney to amount of games ratio. First year of Setanta Cup nearly had comparable prizemoney to the Royal League which says it all.

Prizemoney is always absolutely key. For the Royal League cup, TV/sponsorship were not willing to take a risk on a competition which is going to be nowhere near the main focus for clubs, which already had 3 other more lucrative competitions to compete in. So if the initial prizemoney is less than all other competitions the clubs currently compete in, it can only mean following years will have even less interest. Managers start playing second string teams because of this, which starts a spiral of decline.

An actual league, being naturally the main focus of the season, gives exponentially more value for the initial bidders.

[pineapple stu]

While this is true, it does still demonstrate that cross-border stuff isn't a complete panacea. I find the relative lack of interest in the Setanta Cup hard to reconcile with the mooted figures in Lucid's AIL, for example, even allowing for what your post above.

Certainly it will be interesting to see how the BeNe league goes (if it does get off the ground, although that does now appear more likely than not), not just at the top of the league, but also for those sides who are currently bottom half sides. Will it lead to more mergers? I think so. But I still think those will initially come from similar-sized - and medium-sized - leagues with a history of being in the same league, such as Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia. That counts us out on all counts for a while yet I would say.

[nigel-harps1954]

Imagine Celtic coming over to play a league game in Ireland...no thanks.

[EatYerGreens]

With more money in a unified league, the standard would come up somewhat, but I agree. Transport costs make this Celtic league unlikely to be viable.

That said, if UEFA open Pandora's box here, there could be a race to mergers among smaller leagues across Europe. Scale is what's required to compete with the bigger leagues.

If mergers were to become a thing, the most obvious and sensible thing would be for the Welsh and Scottish clubs to be amalgamated within the English pyramid. The 2 biggest club sin Scotland have wanted it for years ; doubtless a few others would be keen if the chance arose, and the 4/5 biggest/best supported clubs in Wales are already playing in England. So they are the mergers that would make most sense.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, that makes sense, though the most recent change in that regard was Colwyn Bay leaving the English leagues to join the Welsh setup two years ago. Probably for the smaller Welsh teams, being in a national competition (with European spots) is better than being in the eighth tier in England. A merger would need to work out a way around that problem.

[Bucket]

It'll probably come down to blazers. Will a merger create more blazers or less? More seats on UEFA/FIFA committees or less?
Closer to home we need lots of mergers! Junior, Intermediate and Senior should be merged. 37 league systems for a population of 4 million is bananas

[sullanefc]

If the Belgian and Dutch leagues merge and thus sets a precedent of clubs playing in other jurisdictions, then it doesn't necessarily pave the way for an All Ireland league.

It could pave the way for Celtic and Rangers joining the epl and leaving the spl high and dry. Would Linfield opt for an AI League or play in the mainland, and join the english football league? The Dublin Dons project could re emerge.

Think about it lads, this won't necessarily go the way you want it to go. Follow the money.

[ToberonaTornado]

If the Belgian and Dutch leagues merge and thus sets a precedent of clubs playing in other jurisdictions, then it doesn't necessarily pave the way for an All Ireland league.

It could pave the way for Celtic and Rangers joining the epl and leaving the spl high and dry. Would Linfield opt for an AI League or play in the mainland, and join the english football league? The Dublin Dons project could re emerge.

Think about it lads, this won't necessarily go the way you want it to go. Follow the money.

I doubt Rangers or Celtic would be asked to play in EPL giving their low ranking in Europe.

If the Dublin dons project reemerges(or anything connected to it),i'll give you €1000 and i'll drive to Cork to hand the €1000 cash to you in person.

[sullanefc]

I doubt Rangers or Celtic would be asked to play in EPL giving their low ranking in Europe.

If the Dublin dons project reemerges(or anything connected to it),i'll give you €1000 and i'll drive to Cork to hand the €1000 cash to you in person.
Can't wait.

[ToberonaTornado]

Can't wait.

Or the "MAINLAND" if you want :o:( Up to you?

[sullanefc]

Or the "MAINLAND" if you want :o:( Up to you?
It was a joke about Linfield and where their priorities would lie. Relax petal.

[ToberonaTornado]

It was a joke about Linfield and where their priorities would lie. Relax petal.

I never mentioned - but settle petal yourself.
AIL,imo,not dead in the water yet but getting close to it.First death roll.

[DCWA]

A few posters have mentioned this before but have we not now reached the stage where we should be having the conversation almost in reverse? What happens domestic football post unification?

We talk about an AIL in terms of one league straddling two associations/areas when it looks more likely now that we could end up not too far down the line with two leagues and associations having to be worked into one state.

In fact it seems to be me to be rather more likely that we end up having to face that situation before we have an AIL.

[EatYerGreens]

Yeah, that makes sense, though the most recent change in that regard was Colwyn Bay leaving the English leagues to join the Welsh setup two years ago. Probably for the smaller Welsh teams, being in a national competition (with European spots) is better than being in the eighth tier in England. A merger would need to work out a way around that problem.

Colwyn Bay was an anomaly though. The Welsh/Cymru Premier League has been around for almost 30years now. And whilst there were clubs who left the English pyramid to join it at the start (Bangor, Newton, Rhyl) and others who joined a bit later (Caernarfon), there have been almost no additions from the English system this century. Some of the 'exiled' clubs (e.g. Newport and Merthyr) have real enmity towards the FAW and the league, as when it was formed an attempt was made to force them into it.

The whole thing is daft really, as clubs like Newport are always going to be make-weights in England, whereas in Wales they would be regularly representing their country in Europe. But as we all know there are a lot of things in football that aren't about common sense. I'd personally love to see a Welsh League with Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham, Bangor, Newport, Myrthyr, TNS, Aberystwyth etc in the top tier. It would potentially end up being a bit of a 2/3 horse race every year - but that's the reality in a lot of leagues these days (and for somewhere with just over 3 million people and only one decent-sized city, it shouldn't be a surprise). I can't fathom why Merthyr fans are happy in the 7th tier of English football where they have to play fixtures in places like Truro and London against glamour sides like the Metropolitan Police and Swindon Supermarine, when they could instead be playing in their own country, developing/renewing long-standing rivalries, helping Welsh football improve and getting into Europe on a semi-regular basis. It's all daft, but that's the sturbborness of football people for you.

[EatYerGreens]

If the Belgian and Dutch leagues merge and thus sets a precedent of clubs playing in other jurisdictions, then it doesn't necessarily pave the way for an All Ireland league.

It could pave the way for Celtic and Rangers joining the epl and leaving the spl high and dry. Would Linfield opt for an AI League or play in the mainland, and join the english football league? The Dublin Dons project could re emerge.

Think about it lads, this won't necessarily go the way you want it to go. Follow the money.

Linfield won't join the English structure. That's just silly. Why would they when they can easily win the league they're currently in every 2-3 years on average, whilst in England they'd have to start at level 12 or so, face huge travel costs, probably have to pay for other teams to travel to play them, and then struggle to rise all that far up the pyramid ? Crazy talk really.

And where is this "mainland" you speak of?

[EatYerGreens]

I doubt Rangers or Celtic would be asked to play in EPL giving their low ranking in Europe.

If the Dublin dons project reemerges(or anything connected to it),i'll give you €1000 and i'll drive to Cork to hand the €1000 cash to you in person.

The English Premier and its clubs cared about Ireland in the 1990s. That was obvious from friendly fixtures, tournaments, player recruitment etc at the time. Now they're more interested in Africa, Asia and the US.

There'd probably be more interest amongst the top clubs in England in having a club from New York in their league now than one from Dublin. We're just too damn small, and there's too much money in their own league now for them to care really.

[pineapple stu]

Some of the 'exiled' clubs (e.g. Newport and Merthyr) have real enmity towards the FAW and the league, as when it was formed an attempt was made to force them into it.
So did Colwyn Bay. Many fans threatened to boycott the club over the transfer. The vote for them to join Wales caused huge ructions internally. But the did it anyway, and it'll be interesting to see how they get on. As you say, they were nobodies in England, and a bit of European money if they got there would be a huge deal for them.

[sullanefc]

Linfield won't join the English structure. That's just silly. Why would they when they can easily win the league they're currently in every 2-3 years on average, whilst in England they'd have to start at level 12 or so, face huge travel costs, probably have to pay for other teams to travel to play them, and then struggle to rise all that far up the pyramid ? Crazy talk really.

And where is this "mainland" you speak of?
Crikey, read the thread. The "mainland" was a joke in reference to the fact that Linfield, being a unionist club, would possibly favour joining the english league before the league of Ireland.

And yes, they have a better chance of winning the Irish league and European football where they are, but if that was so attractive, why don't Cardiff and Swansea join the Welsh league, win it every year and get European football?

Even Newport? Newport had fabulous cup runs in recent years meeting Spurs, Leicester, Man City etc. Padraig Almond scoring for them, appearing on BBC etc.

Is all that more prestigious than winning your own National title plus European football? Many would argue, yes.

[Bucket]

There should be just one European League, split into 53 regional divisions, with the top few in each division entering some sort of play-off system to determine an overall winner

[John83]

There should be just one European League, split into 53 regional divisions, with the top few in each division entering some sort of play-off system to determine an overall winner
Actually, yes. I'd have little problem with a European super-league if it had a promotion and relegation to a pyramid with regionalisation below a certain level. The danger is the big clubs pulling the ladder up behind them and telling UEFA to get stuffed.

[Bucket]

By "split into 53 regional divisions", I was describing the current format which should, imo, be retained.

[John83]

The "play-off system" bit mislead me a litte there. It's my preference too, but I fear the big clubs will keep pushing until they ruin it.

[Bucket]

That was referencing the Champions League! Note to self: don't post when tired.
I'm hoping the threat that players and clubs that breakaway would be barred from future UEFA/FIFA competitions will delay it long enough until I'm dead or until a better solution is found.
I think the problem really is TV money. The top leagues in Europe receive way more than any other in the world, so clubs pay the highest wages to attract the best players which boosts sponsorship and the gap gets bigger all the time. Most of the biggest investors come from places where there are no high profile leagues like the Middle East and Asia.
If FIFA took control of all TV contracts centrally and redistributed the money equally to each continental federation then maybe there would be a more even spread. Wealthy Gulf dictators might start supporting their own clubs

[John83]

Giving FIFA more money sounds like a bad idea. They're corrupt enough as it is. There's also no way they can take control of that now. Even the situation in England, where the Premiership has a central TV contract with rules for how it's distributed is probably now impossible in Spain, where the clubs control their own TV rights individually.

[Bucket]

I don't think it would happen either. Maybe if they controlled the rights for Copa Libertadores, Champions League, Asian CL and African CL and then ordered each to pay the same prize money, it would be a start.

[EalingGreen]

Even the situation in England, where the Premiership has a central TV contract with rules for how it's distributed is probably now impossible in Spain, where the clubs control their own TV rights individually.
Actually, that's no longer the case.

At the start of season 2015/16 La Liga moved to a centralised distribution system which, whilst still rewarding the Big Three handsomely, is nonetheless much better than before for the other 17 clubs:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bobbymcmahon/2019/12/15/la-liga-distributes-14b-in-tv-money-barcelona-and-17-other-teams-receive-record-payouts/