WatchLOI

[nigel-harps1954]

Couldn't find a thread for it there. Dan McDonnell had the figures on the Indo today.

11,000 paying subscribers for it, not including season ticket holders, of which around 6,000 utilised their free passes.

Not great figures. You'd have hoped for double that really. Is it any wonder it's most likely not returning this year.

Article here

https://amp.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/loi-streaming-plans-in-the-balance-as-disappointing-sales-figures-revealed-40068188.html?__twitter_impression=true

[DCWA]

Watching a stream from an empty LOI ground is a depressing experience even for an active supporter of a club I am not surprised figures were poor I stopped having any interest myself after a game or two and just periodically checked FlashScore during the game. I struggle to see a profitable streaming solution for clubs or the league, I don’t think uptake will be good especially when those season ticket holders would now have to pay as well.

[Kiki Balboa]

I dont understand why they expected more. Little marketing and its first year. Like everything it needs time to grow and it was competing against already established leagues and tv channels


It was a great product (the best we could hope for in LOI), and it would show a serious lack of ambition to reduce it so early. Im sure they are other ways to improve it like getting sponsorship or so. Stuff like this should be based around a couple of seasons not just a half one in the middle of the pandemic.

[pineapple stu]

I don't think it's fair to accuse them of a "serious lack of ambition"

The numbers don't stack up - and I don't think anyone's really surprised. The article highlights that viewing figures dropped as the season went on ("a pertinent figure is that from September onwards, the average watching each game on the platform dropped to somewhere in the region of 2,600.") - so would you even get 11k renewing this year? (Definitely not - as the article points out, 4 season ticket holders in a family equates to 1 WatchLoI pass)

RTÉ aren't in the business of racking up losses and calling it "ambition". WatchLoI unfortunately has no real unique selling point to bring to market - you can watch football in empty grounds anywhere these days. It's really aimed at LoI fans, and we're a small market.

I think the suggestion that RTÉ screen a reduced number of games is reasonable, and I think the FD experience last year is that most clubs can make a decent go at streaming their own games if required.

[outspoken]

Let the clubs do it themselves. If 1000 people tune in to watch LTFC v Dundalk at €5 a pop the clubs will surely make more than whatever slice they got from Watch LOI. The lack of marketing around watch loi doomed it to failure from day 1. The likes of Rovers & Dundalk who have full time social media people can advertise as much as they want in the week leading up to a game.

The first Division clubs (well Drogheda anyway) were excellent at always promoting the home teams stream so lets hope the PD clubs work together in the same manner but then again it ids the LOI.

[NeverFeltBetter]

RTE is in no position to maintain the service if its running at a substantial loss. Staff there are about to be balloted on accepting paycuts. Frankly it's a miracle they even did it for one season.

[D24Saint]

Watching a stream from an empty LOI ground is a depressing experience even for an active supporter of a club I am not surprised figures were poor I stopped having any interest myself after a game or two and just periodically checked FlashScore during the game. I struggle to see a profitable streaming solution for clubs or the league, I don’t think uptake will be good especially when those season ticket holders would now have to pay as well.

I agree with this , it was a tough watch. I rarely watched 90 mins of our games never mind other teams games.

[Longfordian]

Yeah I don't see a particular issue with RTE scaling back the service as long as clubs have the option of doing the other games themselves. Then the clubs can look at the costs and any ways they can reduce them.

[D24Saint]

Yeah I don't see a particular issue with RTE scaling back the service as long as clubs have the option of doing the other games themselves. Then the clubs can look at the costs and any ways they can reduce them.

No professional commentators would save money. The club should provide their own if it’s available if not then just the ambient sound.

[Longfordian]

Absolutely, I was thinking zero cost for commentary. Plenty of local or club media people would be willing to do it for nothing.

[Sonny]

No professional commentators would save money. The club should provide their own if it’s available if not then just the ambient sound.

The commentary was atrocious anyway. I appreciate it's difficult for one person to commentate on a game alone, but it was completely unlistenable 95% of the time. Just constant repetition of the same background information or repeating the same trite observations over and over again to fill dead air.

[sbgawa]

Id be 100% against scaling it back, id rather they walked away altogether.
Lets say they scale it back to one third of the games , would anyone like to bet its all of Rovers / Dundalk and Bohs games (thats 30%). How many games did RTE show last year that didnt involve one of those.
So the other clubs miss out on the only games they could have got a decent amount of sales of "away fans" for their own streaming service and Rovers Bohs and Dundalk get diddly squat because the "numbers are so low" and RTE's costs are to high by comparison with what can be done privately.
Let the clubs do it themselves.
Speaking for myself as a season ticket holder i would be happy with a free stream until season ticket holders can get into the stadium and priority when spectators are allowed for having bought a season ticket.

[placid casual]

The clubs who have the ability to screen their own games should not be penalised for doing so. That's what happened in the past. If its a case that any live game picked up on TV is not allowed to be screened by the clubs then so be it, but the fai/rte/eir have to accomodate the fans missing out due to covid stadium closures.

[blueblood]

Surely the subscriptions (4700 ish) alone would have covered RTEs €300,000. Then add in the €5 PER individual game passes is another roughly €30,000.
If season ticket holders didn't avail of this "free" pass you could probably throw up to another €100,000 into the pot. Were people really hoping RTE was going to be a small fortune or something?
There are definatways to cut costs and get sponsor's money and RTE should be looking at doin that and provide the service they should.
Also the average DROPPING to 2,600 doesn't seem too bad when you consider a lot of games were nothing games, I would have expected these "low" averages.

[lofty9]

Can someone clarify this 'free' pass to season ticket holders? Did the clubs pay for this or get a discounted rate? My club communicated to supporters that they paid full amount for it when in discussions about refunding season ticket holders and took out the cost to watchloi. I didn't ask for a refund for the 2 adults and 3 kids tickets I bought. But if this isn't true......

[D24Saint]

Can someone clarify this 'free' pass to season ticket holders? Did the clubs pay for this or get a discounted rate? My club communicated to supporters that they paid full amount for it when in discussions about refunding season ticket holders and took out the cost to watchloi. I didn't ask for a refund for the 2 adults and 3 kids tickets I bought. But if this isn't true......

I always assumed the FAI gave X amount of free passes to clubs as a sweetener. I never for a second thought Pats paid a penny for my pass to watch LOI.

[lofty9]

Derry have implied that it was costing them and took out the two games plus the cost of watchloi in refunds. If they haven't paid for this service, they need called out about it and there will be a huge fallout.

[nigel-harps1954]

I don't think clubs paid for the season ticket holders. Possibly a nominal cut price fee, but I was under the impression that season ticket holders were covered by FAI

[Martinho II]

I am intrigued with Premier Sports expressing an interest wots in it for them considering they are a Uk based Co? Considering that NIFL games are shown on Sky Sports live I would have thought it would be the latter!

[sbgawa]

Regardless of what the clubs paid for the passes the value if u had to buy it was the price u would have paid for it.
Ive no problem with that. If the clubs had paid full price and the fai gave them a grant for running costs the net effect is the same

[lofty9]

Regardless of what the clubs paid for the passes the value if u had to buy it was the price u would have paid for it.
Ive no problem with that. If the clubs had paid full price and the fai gave them a grant for running costs the net effect is the same

The economy of truth is the value here, being misled doesn’t sit well with me.

[Nesta99]

Clubs have shown that they are capable of doing an excellent job of streaming games. IF there were any financial resources directed to WatchLoI they should go to the clubs to do their own thing. In principle trying to share the wealth was a good thing but was it really expected to make any significant money!? As mentioned it takes longer to establish a service than part of a season. I'd watch any game crowd or not so liked the service and would like to have the continued option to see away Dundalk games that I cant get to even when crowds are back. One major positive of clubs doing their own streaming is less having to hear Dundork, nails on a blackboard!

That figure of an average of 2600 watching EACH games isnt at all bad even if 11k subscribers fell short of the target. Im not sure how they expected significant overseas numbers or how they gauged that market, ex-pat fans (no pun intended) may have known about the service and used it but how could any figures be guesstimated - maybe from RTE Player figures? With the approximate €7mil loss made by RTE in general, spending 300k on a fringe service isnt going to make sense when clubs can manage things themselves by and large and for much less. Its not as if there were pundits on the WatchLoI platform. Its not directly related but clubs worry about lost gate income when games are on TV so imo club provided streaming helps mitigate against that thinking which is anecdotal rather than there being concrete figures of the impact of such a trend. Streaming by clubs could be jointly marketed and branded and with the FAI assisting with 'signal costs', throw in some adds?. I dont know whats involved so maybe naïve but the Dundalk preseason coverage was excellent, with in match replays, commentary and punditry. Any 1st Division coverage I saw were also top notch. Why not utilise the many film + TV/media course students and if organised provide course credits so costs are reduced and would have their own equipment etc.

Its a worthwhile effort in its infancy but the baby shouldnt be thrown out with the bathwater (apologies at this dreadful pun too). Going forward and even when BCD ends there is still the summer season angle to push when other leagues have finished if an international market is hoped for.

[DCSIL]

I am intrigued with Premier Sports expressing an interest wots in it for them considering they are a Uk based Co? Considering that NIFL games are shown on Sky Sports live I would have thought it would be the latter!

Need something to fit in between the Ice Hockey and Ice Hockey and oh the Ice Hockey.

I wouldn’t go anywhere near them.

[sbgawa]

The economy of truth is the value here, being misled doesn’t sit well with me.

Fair point if they said they were paying full whack.
My understanding was clubs did have to pay a much reduced rate but that it was not free

[DCWA]

I am intrigued with Premier Sports expressing an interest wots in it for them considering they are a Uk based Co? Considering that NIFL games are shown on Sky Sports live I would have thought it would be the latter!

Sky don’t show Irish League games through choice it is part of the deal for showing the north’s international games that they show 5 per season I believe (open to correction on specifics) and I suspect they would get rid of it in a shot if they could.

[pineapple stu]

Surely the subscriptions (4700 ish) alone would have covered RTEs €300,000. Then add in the €5 PER individual game passes is another roughly €30,000.
If season ticket holders didn't avail of this "free" pass you could probably throw up to another €100,000 into the pot. Were people really hoping RTE was going to be a small fortune or something?
There are definatways to cut costs and get sponsor's money and RTE should be looking at doin that and provide the service they should.
Also the average DROPPING to 2,600 doesn't seem too bad when you consider a lot of games were nothing games, I would have expected these "low" averages.
Fair points, but I suppose there's the point that €300k was to show what - 13 rounds of games? 2021 is 36 games; that's a huge scale-up. If production costs are linear (ie if it's a set amount per game), then you're looking at €800k+ to show the full 2021 season. That in a position where they may see subscriptions dropping off further for the new season.

I'm not sure there's significant scope for cost-cutting there either if it's about €5k per game. You presumably need an OB unit, commentator, production crew, etc. If you reduce it to €4k per game, that's not going to dramatically change the economics of the thing.

[Real ale Madrid]

No professional commentators would save money. The club should provide their own if it’s available if not then just the ambient sound.

iFollow in the UK use whatever local BBC radio feed is available. No reason why that couldn't be managed here.

300,000 production costs for 85 games. roughly 3,500 per game - struggling to see how the games down in Turners Cross cost that much.

RTE, through GAAGO covered League Division 4 games which according to them must have been run at a loss. We are the poor relation here again. I know rte shouldn't be expected to run at a loss but there should be an element of public service come into this and if games are BCD then something should be provided imo.

[Straightstory]

Clubs screening their own games is the way to go. I watched nearly all of Drogheda's games last year. Quality (of production) wise, home games were fine, as were most away games (except for Bray, which was amusingly dreadful). Not up to professional Watch LOI standard, but enough to keep fans happy.

[CorribsideSteve]

Siobhan Madigan's commentary could have been used as a torture mechanism in Gitmo. As mentioned above, games like Finn Harps vs Shels in the rain, with no crowd, and her voice, wasn't very attractive. Though watching games with Jon Kenny was a much better experience. It's disappointing it's not back, or may be so in a greatly reduced format, but the production values were too low.

[Mr A]

In fairness I was chatting to Siobhan before that game and it was literally her first time commentating on a football match. Tough gig for anyone to make that game sound decent, never mind when it's your first time.

[D24Saint]

In fairness I was chatting to Siobhan before that game and it was literally her first time commentating on a football match. Tough gig for anyone to make that game sound decent, never mind when it's your first time.

You could tell , and the subsequent lack of improvement was apparent.

[redobit]

In fairness I was chatting to Siobhan before that game and it was literally her first time commentating on a football match. Tough gig for anyone to make that game sound decent, never mind when it's your first time.

In fairness that is no excuse for getting half the players names wrong.

[Bucket]

Galway Utd had a local commentator, he's a fan, not sure if he works in broadcasting. He was poor enough in the first game but kept on improving and was good by the end of the season. A bit like Mícheál O'Muirceartaigh, a bit in Irish, a bit in English and family backgrounds on nearly everyone! Hope he does it again this season and gets a former player in on co-commentary.

[Kiki Balboa]

Galway Utd had a local commentator, he's a fan, not sure if he works in broadcasting. He was poor enough in the first game but kept on improving and was good by the end of the season. A bit like Mícheál O'Muirceartaigh, a bit in Irish, a bit in English and family backgrounds on nearly everyone! Hope he does it again this season and gets a former player in on co-commentary.

That makes a big difference. Especially with an inexpereinced main commentary. There are lots of radio stations that do top class coverage (LMFM for Dundalk and Drogheda, BBC Radio Foyle for example).

I think the best thing with WatchLOI wasnt even the game coverage, but how highlights of the matches could be up on the likes of Twitter straight away. It kept chat going on the league, instead of previously having to wait until 'SoccerRepublic' (which by the time it came, a full two days of foreign football took everyones attention). Those little things really help naturally develop the league.

[Martinho II]

Sky don’t show Irish League games through choice it is part of the deal for showing the north’s international games that they show 5 per season I believe (open to correction on specifics) and I suspect they would get rid of it in a shot if they could.

Yep in hindsight DCWA you are dead right! I remember reading about this before!

[Martinho II]

In fairness I was chatting to Siobhan before that game and it was literally her first time commentating on a football match. Tough gig for anyone to make that game sound decent, never mind when it's your first time.

I thought Siobhan Madigan was a football reporter I thought?

[Seagull]

Clubs screening their own games is the way to go. I watched nearly all of Drogheda's games last year. Quality (of production) wise, home games were fine, as were most away games (except for Bray, which was amusingly dreadful). Not up to professional Watch LOI standard, but enough to keep fans happy.

In fairness, Bray's commentary was probably the best of all the Div. 1 games I saw, that man knows his LOI. UCD didn't have a broadband connection capable of sustaining a live stream! Wexford and Athlone were the very best I saw.

[pineapple stu]

I thought the Bray guy was a bit dreary tbh; wouldn't go as far as StraightStory, but it was one of the weakest I saw (behind only Galway, I think it was, when the commentator has a runny nose and was sniffing every few seconds)

Appreciate it's a bloody hard job to keep talking for 90 minutes without repeating yourself of course, and fair dues to anyone who does it

[Mr A]

I did a few commentaries for Finn Harps radio and it's a very difficult thing. But then these guys tend to only commentate whereas I was starting chants, drinking cans and shouting at refs at the same time. I miss it sometimes.

[Poor Student]

I did a few commentaries for Finn Harps radio and it's a very difficult thing. But then these guys tend to only commentate whereas I was starting chants, drinking cans and shouting at refs at the same time. I miss it sometimes.

An unenviable task as there's a certain flair required for wrestling commentary.

[Mr A]

An unenviable task as there's a certain flair required for wrestling commentary.

You talking to me?

https://twitter.com/aidanmcnelis/status/1007581336008306688/photo/1

[Burnsie]

some unexpected good news:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/watchloi-streaming-service-set-to-return-on-reduced-basis-for-new-season-40124273.html

[boynemunich]

some unexpected good news:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/watchloi-streaming-service-set-to-return-on-reduced-basis-for-new-season-40124273.html

Is it good news ? If you saw what Longford managed to put together for nothing (or very little) last weekend I don't see much need for WatchLOI to return as long as clubs are willing to do similar.

I also think this "for the first half of the season" really means until the GAA is back.

[D24Saint]

Is it good news ? If you saw what Longford managed to put together for nothing (or very little) last weekend I don't see much need for WatchLOI to return as long as clubs are willing to do similar.

I also think this "for the first half of the season" really means until the GAA is back.

Id say an already weak income from season passes will be further hit if they cant guarantee if your team will be shown every week. I rarely watched other clubs games last year and at that it was a half of football here and there.

[nigel-harps1954]

Is it good news ? If you saw what Longford managed to put together for nothing (or very little) last weekend I don't see much need for WatchLOI to return as long as clubs are willing to do similar.

I also think this "for the first half of the season" really means until the GAA is back.

I have a number of issues with this "let the clubs stream themselves" business.

1. The lack of a central hosting site. Streaming games on Facebook is all well and good until you realise you're effectively counting out the vast majority of your older support, plus all those people who have deactivated social media accounts over the past year or two.

2. Said central hosting site has a single fee that covers streaming all games from all grounds. Paying X amount to watch Longford games is all fine and dandy, until a Shamrock Rovers fan who has paid X amount to watch all Shamrock Rovers games suddenly finds himself having to pay again to a different club for the privilege. A once off ticket for WatchLOI covers all of that without any hassle.

3. The quality issue is a non-point. WatchLOI quality was fine last season and had just as little issues as some of the other clubs who hosted their own. Didn't Longford make a balls of their first few streams before they just decided to stream on Facebook? Commentary wasn't exactly glorious at times with WatchLOI, but that can be worked on. Nothing to suggest they couldn't come together with local commentary teams this season instead of bringing in RTE reporters. We don't know the finer details, but to be honest, if the commentary puts you off watching your team playing, then you have a bigger problem.

4. Clubs can't do similar. No matter how much you dress it up, clubs can only do their their own individual thing. UCD, Longford, Drogheda and others provided quality streams at times last year, and that's without argument really, but it's not WatchLOI, nor is it similar.


A properly marketed WatchLOI, actually paid for by supporters, rather than choosing illegal streams, and with a few slight improvements this season, will be invaluable for the league going forward.

I don't even care for the second or third cameras or that sort of craic. A second commentator would take the heat off the main one. That's a tough gig for 90 minutes by yourself.

The second thing I'd implement is a means of casting WatchLOI onto Google chromecast or onto a smart TV. The hosting site isn't without issues, and I'd hope that's sorted before the season starts.

We've long said that clubs should all be pulling in the one direction for the better of the LOI. The complaints from some clubs smack of both arrogance and selfishness, and no interest in grouping together to create a product for the league as a whole.

[WeAreRovers]

Thanks for the common sense post Nigel! Has been in short supply in discussions around WatchLOI - mostly on another well-known forum platform where some seem to think RTÉ is actually making money from the service. (Insert massive eye roll emoji)

WatchLOI is actually a huge financial and resource commitment from RTÉ to LOI football. Public service broadcasting entails tendering for services and facilities to ensure value for money but there is a minimum amount of money that even a streamed OB will cost which has sod all to do with how much money a commentator is on for instance.

Take up figures last season were pretty much exactly where I thought they'd be, if others had much higher expectations around numbers that's their business.

I have my own opinions on WatchLOI as we all do but as Nigel points out for it to work it needs to be on one platform with consistent pricing and service. I have no doubt there is a compromise to be made down the road with clubs providing their own local commentators etc but it will still need a central home - whether RTÉ is involved or not.

As for the the initial commitment being for the first half of the season as reported by Paul O'Hehir yesterday, that's down to RTÉ's coverage of the Euros and an optimistic hope that crowds may be allowed back later this year negating the need for a streaming service. Nothing to do with RTÉ's GAA coverage as I've seen speculated elsewhere.

[Longfordian]

Not having a go at you WAR but unfortunately I'd say it's a rather unrealistic hope that crowds will be allowed back to any significant degree this season. Maybe 200 people or so.

[WeAreRovers]

Not having a go at you WAR but unfortunately I'd say it's a rather unrealistic hope that crowds will be allowed back to any significant degree this season. Maybe 200 people or so.

Totally agree, just pointing out that there is optimism in some quarters that crowds may be back.

[sidewayspasser]

Some good points being made here.
WatchLOI certainly still had room for improvement last year, but it's still much better to have a single platform showing all games than having 20 different ones with inconsistent pricing and quality, nevermind having to figure out where a game is shown and how you register. What somewhat surprised me last year, and I thought it's a missed opportunity to make WatchLOI more viable financially, is that there were no ads thrown in at half time. Was that not considered at all, or was there no interest from advertisers?

[Dalymountrower]

Thanks for the common sense post Nigel! Has been in short supply in discussions around WatchLOI - mostly on another well-known forum platform where some seem to think RTÉ is actually making money from the service. (Insert massive eye roll emoji)

WatchLOI is actually a huge financial and resource commitment from RTÉ to LOI football. Public service broadcasting entails tendering for services and facilities to ensure value for money but there is a minimum amount of money that even a streamed OB will cost which has sod all to do with how much money a commentator is on for instance.

Take up figures last season were pretty much exactly where I thought they'd be, if others had much higher expectations around numbers that's their business.

I have my own opinions on WatchLOI as we all do but as Nigel points out for it to work it needs to be on one platform with consistent pricing and service. I have no doubt there is a compromise to be made down the road with clubs providing their own local commentators etc but it will still need a central home - whether RTÉ is involved or not.

As for the the initial commitment being for the first half of the season as reported by Paul O'Hehir yesterday, that's down to RTÉ's coverage of the Euros and an optimistic hope that crowds may be allowed back later this year negating the need for a streaming service. Nothing to do with RTÉ's GAA coverage as I've seen speculated elsewhere.

Yep,good news if we can see the first half of the season on a single platform.Thought that Watch LOI last season was a decent effort for only €50 ( paid for it before I knew that Bohs were covering it for members/st holders) found myself dipping into most games that I would normally have little interest in. Harps recovery away to Waterford springs to mind