Next LoI player to play for Ireland?

[gustavo]

i suppose the point is that maybury is no where near international standard either but is good enough to get in our squad sometimes due to our limatations

[Slash/ED]

byrne was very poor in the big games. especially the lansdowne games he looked lost at sea, and never looked convincing imo

Disagree completley. You only have to look at the difference in our performance when he switched from right wing to up front instead of Fitzpatrick, it was like watching a different team. His touch, awareness and holding the ball up was in a different class to Fitzpatrick and we were really on the offensive for the latter stage of that match. It was the same away to Deportivo.


i think you need to take of the rose tinted glasses. heary is good (excellent by eL standards), but by no means is he up to international squad standard. he'll probably never be either, unless he can test himself against a higher level week in week out - which maybury is doing

Maybury can test himself against Ronaldinho every day for all I care, it wont alter the fact he's not upto it. Heary got MOTM against Deportivo, Mayburys embarassed himself for Ireland against far worse teams. Like Gustavo said, I'm not saying Heary is the new Cafu, but we aren't exactly filled with international class full backs. Beyond Finnan, Carr and in the future if he progesses Kelly, Heary is the best we have and deserves his chance.

[joeSoap]

Young Robbie Kelleher playing up front for us will be the next eircom league player capped.. :D :D . He's the closest tHing to Wayne Rooney in the league and would score goals for any side he played for...Pure class...HANDS OFF!!! :D :ball:

[ColinR]

think we'll have to disagree slash. heary was rte's mom v deportivo, its only one game, maybury has played champions league group stages, uefa group stages last season, and will be playing championship next year. he is in a better environment because he is a better player. (anyway rte were always going to pick a shels player for mom).

as for byrne watching as a neutral i thought he was very disappointing - he was someone who i would have thought could compete at that level, but never looked up to it (same against lille - infact more so).

its always easy when your a fan to think that your player is better than he is, you know you nearly sound like a cork fan ;)

[Gerrit]

The next LOI player in the national side ? I'd nominate Richey Baker.

[Éanna]

The next LOI player in the national side ? I'd nominate Richey Baker.
:D :D :D You are joking right?

[Slash/ED]

I wouldn't even pick Baker for Shels


heary was rte's mom v deportivo, its only one game, maybury has played champions league group stages, uefa group stages last season, and will be playing championship next year. he is in a better environment because he is a better player. (anyway rte were always going to pick a shels player for mom).

He's playing at a higher level it does NOT mean he's a better player.

[centre mid]

Now dont shoot me for this but...

Is Gareth Farrelly to auld to get a call up :confused:

[pineapple stu]

I never said we were as good as them

Why else did you say...


What about Lille?
:confused:

[Slash/ED]

Why else did you say...


:confused:

You're talking about one off results being an accurate show of standard, if Linfield are better than us because of the Setanta cup then we're as good as the team who finished second in France. There's no logic to looking at it like that.

[pineapple stu]

You're talking about one off results being an accurate show of standard
I'm not - I've shown several performances which show (most at least) of the players quite clearly aren't up to international standard.

[Slash/ED]

I'm not - I've shown several performances which show (most at least) of the players quite clearly aren't up to international standard.

Most of them during this season where we haven't played near our best at all. Aside from that you picked out a European tie we won :confused:

[pineapple stu]

Most of them during this season where we haven't played near our best at all. Aside from that you picked out a European tie we won :confused:
:rolleyes:

I'm going to spell this out quite simply - you progressed past KR. You did not beat them in either game. If an English Premiership or Division One side had scraped by KR in such a manner, there'd have been an outcry. Yet you treat it as a success. That's why most of the eL players simply aren't good enough to play internationally yet. That's why the likes of gypsydownunder and ColinR - much as we don't like it - are exactly correct.

I picked several games to show eL players (specifically in this instance, Shels players) were not up to standard - both v. KR, both v. Lille, the one v. Linfield and the home game v. Portadown (the UCD mention was a joke, and wouldn't affect my point anyway). Therefore, most of the games I picked were not from this season - they were from last season, when you were playing well.

[Slash/ED]

:rolleyes:

I'm going to spell this out quite simply - you progressed past KR. You did not beat them in either game. If an English Premiership or Division One side had scraped by KR in such a manner, there'd have been an outcry. Yet you treat it as a success. That's why most of the eL players simply aren't good enough to play internationally yet. That's why the likes of gypsydownunder and ColinR - much as we don't like it - are exactly correct.

No there would not. Who cares if we won one of the one off games or not? It is NOT an issue in European football, you get through. Getting through = success. If AC Milan were playing them and they were offered an away goals win they'd take it, a win is a win, who cares what the end score is? How in the hell is progressing failure? It wasn't pretty, but I suppose Duff and Keane aren't international class after Ireland played so poorly against the Faroe Islands? And AC Milan aren't a good team after only getting into the champions league on away goals the year they won it?

And the first division side didn't set Europe alight last year, facing a weaker team than Shels in the first round of the UEFA cup.


I picked several games to show eL players (specifically in this instance, Shels players) were not up to standard - both v. KR, both v. Lille, the one v. Linfield and the home game v. Portadown (the UCD mention was a joke, and wouldn't affect my point anyway). Therefore, most of the games I picked were not from this season - they were from last season, when you were playing well.

V Lille we were outclassed. Now, if you could measure the Irish international teams playes all on the standard of Lille, we'd be a f*cking amazing team. Do you think a team consisting of the likes of Maybury, Barrett, Lee, Doherty, Quinn and co would have stood even the remotest chance against a team who finished second in France? Don't make me bleedin' laugh.

The KR match we won, end of story, I really am not interested in how it happened. We won, we went through, they did not, the end. You've nicely ommited Hadjuk Split at home, Hajduk Split away, Deportivo at home and Deportivo away from your little test.

The portadown match was at the start of the season and they had the fitness advantage, we outplayed them on their own patch later. Linfield was a one off, Linfield finished behind Glentoran yet beat them in the Setanta cup, I suppose they're better now? You're useing one off results to prove a point and it is one of the most inept arguments in football, you can't do it. You think we're a worse side than Linfield because of the Setanta Cup final? Okay, so two years ago we were a worse team than Sligo? The european champions are worse than Burley? Yeah, fair enough :confused:

[jorge]

:rolleyes:

If an English Premiership or Division One side had scraped by KR in such a manner, there'd have been an outcry. .
I very much doubt it and why did you even mention a division one team?

[pineapple stu]

If AC Milan were playing them and they were offered an away goals win they'd take it, a win is a win, who cares what the end score is?
Ah come on! If AC drew twice against KR, the manager would be sacked. In fact, he'd be sacked before the second leg. If these players can't beat Icelandic part-timers - twice - how can we justify a call-up to an international squad to play France?


You've nicely ommited Hadjuk Split at home, Hajduk Split away, Deportivo at home and Deportivo away from your little test.
My "test" was to disprove your theory that the Linfield game was a once-off. I don't need to look at every game. Though if you're going to make a big deal about being at the very start of the season when you played in the Setanta, I suppose you'll agree that, had Depor not been in pre-season themselves when they played youz, they would have hammered you?


You're useing one off results to prove a point and it is one of the most inept arguments in football, you can't do it.
Repeating mistruths don't make them true. I am using six-off occasions, NOT one-offs. I am going to pains to point this out. In fact, you could argue given previous European performances - Lille, Hibernians, Ljubljana, Brondby, etc. - that the Hajduk game was a once-off, one on which you're basing your theory that Shels players should have ten caps for Ireland by now.

The bottom line - and I will repeat this because you seem to be making every effort to pretend that I'm arguing something different - if the best team in the league contains players who so often (not once-off) fail to beat (drawing matches doesn't do any good in international football) part-time teams, or get completely and utterly outclassed against semi-decent teams, then they are not good enough for the national team. There's no point in replacing dross with dross - and I would rank those players you named as above any in the eL Premier; Gareth Farrelly has come from a lower Division One team to the eL and is now acknowledged as one of the best players in the league when he's fit. I'm not gloating in that fact. It's just the truth.

[Slash/ED]

Ah come on! If AC drew twice against KR, the manager would be sacked. In fact, he'd be sacked before the second leg. If these players can't beat Icelandic part-timers - twice - how can we justify a call-up to an international squad to play France?

No, he wouldn't. People would be unimpressed with the performance, but they would be happy with progression. Are you saying if you offered a team progression to the next round they wouldn't take it? Come off it.



My "test" was to disprove your theory that the Linfield game was a once-off. I don't need to look at every game. Though if you're going to make a big deal about being at the very start of the season when you played in the Setanta, I suppose you'll agree that, had Depor not been in pre-season themselves when they played youz, they would have hammered you?

I'm not saying fitness excuses our performance against Portadown but it was a factor as proved by the away game. You're selecting the home game as some kind of sign yet ignoreing the away game when we outclassed them, that is absolutley stupid.

The Linfield game was a one off because it was a one off game, it was a final, you can't possibley judge a teams standard in a final. That's completley and totally retarded. How many upsets have there been in finals? Bloody millions, it doesn't mean the teams who won were better or the teams who lost were poor. Are Milan to be disregarded as a world class team for failing to beat the 5th place team in England, who finished below bloody everton?



Repeating mistruths don't make them true. I am using six-off occasions, NOT one-offs. I am going to pains to point this out. In fact, you could argue given previous European performances - Lille, Hibernians, Ljubljana, Brondby, etc. - that the Hajduk game was a once-off, one on which you're basing your theory that Shels players should have ten caps for Ireland by now.

Our previous teams were not as good as the team last year ot this year. In fact your whole theory that you can judge a player by his team is also completley retarded. Lets look at it like this, Lille H, Lille A, Deportivo H, Deportivo A, Hajduk Split H, Hajduk Split A, KR H, KR A, Ljubljana H, Ljubljana A, Brondby H, Brondby A - In not one of those games did Heary play poorly or show he wans't internetional class. Not one. Add Rosenborg and the rest onto that list. In fact in most he was absolutley exceptional.


The bottom line - and I will repeat this because you seem to be making every effort to pretend that I'm arguing something different - if the best team in the league contains players who so often (not once-off) fail to beat (drawing matches doesn't do any good in international football) part-time teams, or get completely and utterly outclassed against semi-decent teams, then they are not good enough for the national team. There's no point in replacing dross with dross - and I would rank those players you named as above any in the eL Premier; Gareth Farrelly has come from a lower Division One team to the eL and is now acknowledged as one of the best players in the league when he's fit. I'm not gloating in that fact. It's just the truth.

Drawing matches doesn't do any good in international football? Alright here, and answer this please, if I offered you right now that Ireland will finish second in their group, somehow draw a part time team in the play offs to qualify, draw 2-2 away and 0-0 at home, you're going to say no, call for Kerrs head and demand more? Are you f*ck.

Right so, if the European champions can't beat Burley they're sh*t too? Open your eyes, results like those happen all over football. I'm sure the champions of England have lost to woefully inferior teams many, many times. I'm not arsed looking it up, you and I both know it's true. ffs Man U struggled to beat Exeter this season, only after a replay and a very even game did they. Keanes not international class now?

You're whole argument is flawed for two completley stupid reasons. 1) You're arguing that a few results can prove the entire standard of a team/league, that is not true. 2) You're saying that because a league/team has alot of substandard players that there can't possibley ever be international class players in it. Wrong. Heary has proved himself at the highest level, a higher level than Ireland will play bar a few games a year. Maybury has proved himself to not be up to it against inferior teams. I couldn't give a toss if Maybury plays for the 1970s Dutch team and Heary plays for Doncaster, on a player by player comparison, looking at both of their performances against top level opposition, Heary is better.

[jorge]

Ah come on! If AC drew twice against KR, the manager would be sacked. In fact, he'd be sacked before the second leg. .
The year A.C.Milan won the CL they had to qualify(3rd round)they ended up playing Slovan Liberec(intertoto 2004 :D ).A.C got through on the away goals rule,Anccelotti was not sacked so as Slash said it come off it.

[EnDai]

Surely, in a 2 match tie, winning on Goal Difference means you had more goals!? :D :eek:

[jorge]

mi mistake i meant away goals difference

[livehead1]

at the end of d day, the EL is a Cr*p league full of cr*p players who would have given their right foot to play in england, the vast majority of the stand out players are failures in england, crowe being a prime example. lets just see how well murphy and doyle do next season. i bet neither of them do sweet FA. none of the players in that league deserve a call up to their national side as they simply aint good enough and even if they were good enough no1 has even thought to take into acount if they would be able to handle the pressure of playing at the showgrounds one week and Parc De France the next.....

[Slash/ED]

How many EL games do you get to see in England, livehead1?

[livehead1]

spending months at a time in ireland....galway/sligo area i get to see quite a few thanks :D its a useless league, must really hurt EL lovers to hear the truth but if it was any good then you'd see a team selling their best player for perhaps more than 100,000 or indeed attracting a decent manager from a popular european league, or getting and attendance higher than an Eng. 2nd division game, or getting past the qualification rounds of a european competition. nuff said

[Slash/ED]

Sligo and Galway, so all you've seen is first divison over the past few years then?

[mypost]

Brian Kerr hasn't played - or selected even - Connolly in months. He mightn't be international class, but by the same token, neither are any of the names you mentioned - and they're further away from the standard than Connolly is. Byrne for one was a flop in Europe - eight games and no goals.

Is Steven Elliot International class based on the fact that he did well against the Faroe Islands, seriously? Connolly will be selected by BK when we face a striker crisis, you can be sure about that. You're being ultra-harsh on Byrne. He got a runout for about 2 minutes in a friendly for Ireland. If he was on for longer, he could have made a greater impression.


Playing against the likes of Finn Harps and Shamrock Rovers also isn't the best way to prepare for an international match, while at least playing against Division One clubs is a much better test on a regular basis.

Disagree. Is playing against the likes of Gillingham, Cardiff, or Plymouth every week, a better test than facing the best this league has to offer, i.e. Shels, Bohs, or Cork regularly? I don't think so.

On a separate issue, I have to agree with Slash/ed with the results arguement. If AC Milan got an away draw in a European tie during their pre-season away to an Icelandic side in mid-season, I don't think they'd be too upset. Shels may not have won against KR last year, but they qualified for the next round. You can't say the same for a side who apparantly play in a better league, Dunfermline, who went out of Europe to another Icelandic side last season, Hafnarfjordur. So if you want to compare results, that must mean that Shels are a better side than Dunfermline, but they are anyway.

[mypost]

at the end of d day, the EL is a Cr*p league full of cr*p players who would have given their right foot to play in england, the vast majority of the stand out players are failures in england, crowe being a prime example. lets just see how well murphy and doyle do next season. none of the players in that league deserve a call up to their national side.

Was that post sent in 1985, or 2005??

Judging the standard of the NL by watching games in the lower division is not an accurate assessment of the standard of the league. There are mouth-watering games on most weeks in the top flight, the standard of football is better than before, the European results have improved, and the players are full-time at most of the top flight clubs. Yes, some players want to play in England, but so do players in many countries.

[gypsydownunder]

Hmmmm. As mentioned earlier the last Home based player to play in a COMPETITIVE game was in..... 1985.

So maybe the standard was better then?

[pineapple stu]

My better sense is telling me to write you off as a complete wind-up merchant, so this will be my last contribution...


No, he wouldn't. People would be unimpressed with the performance, but they would be happy with progression. Are you saying if you offered a team progression to the next round they wouldn't take it? Come off it.
Right so. You believe that. The reality can be seen by the example of Inter losing their first-leg game in Helsingborgs in the Champions' League in 2000 - the manager didn't last very long after that. And before you start up again, it's a one-off by necessity - results of that magnitude don't come along too often.


You're selecting the home game as some kind of sign yet ignoreing the away game when we outclassed them, that is absolutley stupid.
I'm not - I am merely picking the numerous occasions when Shels showed they weren't up to it. Shels have had some good results obviously, but there are too many poor ones, which is my point. If you want to discount this game, fine, but then Heary's performances against a pre-season Depor also can't be considered for the exact reason.


The Linfield game was a one off because it was a one off game, it was a final, you can't possibley judge a teams standard in a final.
So you're better than them, but any results which show otherwise are to be discounted? Was it the pressure got to your team? Doesn't say much for their ability to play international football. Did they choke on the big occasion? Ditto. Big international matches are one-off too.


Drawing matches doesn't do any good in international football? Alright here, and answer this please, if I offered you right now that Ireland will finish second in their group, somehow draw a part time team in the play offs to qualify, draw 2-2 away and 0-0 at home, you're going to say no, call for Kerrs head and demand more?
:rolleyes:

Let's put it this way - if we'd drawn 2-2 against the Faroes (or Cyprus) away and 0-0 at home, would we be in a position to qualify now? Draws against substandard teams aren't good enough in international football. Quite simple really.


You're whole argument is flawed for two completley stupid reasons. 1) You're arguing that a few results can prove the entire standard of a team/league, that is not true. 2) You're saying that because a league/team has alot of substandard players that there can't possibley ever be international class players in it.
1) There haven't been many games where Shels have tested themselves against decent teams, so I can only pick a few results. Those few results are a notable percentage of the games available to me.
2) I'm not saying it's impossible. I am saying I think it is the case though. Big difference. I'm calling for a bit of realism.


I couldn't give a toss if Maybury plays for the 1970s Dutch team and Heary plays for Doncaster, on a player by player comparison, looking at both of their performances against top level opposition, Heary is better.
I see. So irrespective of what the manager who signed them thinks - who, let's face it, is more knowledgeable than you or I - or what the manager who picks the players for the international team - who, let's face it, is also more knowledgeable than you or I - you are just going to persevere in your own view that Heary is better than Maybury. Fair enough so.


Disagree. Is playing against the likes of Gillingham, Cardiff, or Plymouth every week, a better test than facing the best this league has to offer, i.e. Shels, Bohs, or Cork regularly? I don't think so.
That's an invalid comparison. You can't compare the bottom teams in Division One with the top teams in the eL Premier. You have to compare like with like - is playing West Ham, Sunderland, Derby, etc. more of a test than playing Shels, Cork, Bohs, etc.? Yes, I think it is. Is playing Notts Forest, Crewe, Coventry more of a test than playing UCD, Harps or Rovers? We've played Crewe and Coventry and been blown away by them, so it most certainly is.


You're being ultra-harsh on Byrne. He got a runout for about 2 minutes in a friendly for Ireland. If he was on for longer, he could have made a greater impression.
I'm not basing my impresison on the Poland game. I'm basing my impression on eight opportunities against European opposition in which he didn't score, missed a number of sitters and was generally - not just by me - thought to have been poor.


The year A.C.Milan won the CL they had to qualify(3rd round)they ended up playing Slovan Liberec. A.C got through on the away goals rule, Anccelotti was not sacked so as Slash said it come off it.
Are you seriously comparing a Czech team to an Icelandic one?! The twelfth best league in Europe versus the 36th best? The 72nd best team in Europe in the last five years according to the UEFA rankings (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/trank2005.html) versus a team who don't even appear on a list of 237 teams?

[Junior]

Great debate lads, afraid I can't add too much to it due to my lack of knowledge of the EL, (though this is getting better).

Slash/Ed, whilst you may be right in saying that you can't judge an individuals ability on his teams/domestic leagues progression. I would say it is more than likely a fairly accurate method of benchmarking his skills and ability to play at the very highest level?

Ireland are looking to qualify for the World Cup and should we get there we would be looking to at least reach the knock out stages.

I know nothing of Heany but the likelihood of a player who can form part of the team above, playing for a team with mediocre european results (although improving all the time) and playing in a league which is acknowledged as below par are remote.

A US Cup type scenario of friendlies may help to try a few players that fall in to this bracket.


So if you want to compare results, that must mean that Shels are a better side than Dunfermline, but they are anyway.

That may or may not be the case. But how many internationals do Dunfermline have in their first team? Zero.

[pineapple stu]

But how many internationals do Dunfermline have in their first team? Zero.
Not quite true - Andrius Skerla is a Lithuanian international. Think that backs up your point though.

[Junior]

Not quite true - Andrius Skerla is a Lithuanian international. Think that backs up your point though.

How silly - only looked at Scottish internationals! doh...

[gustavo]

its a useless league, must really hurt EL lovers to hear the truth
its your truth

[livehead1]

evidently its the truth of any decent footballer or coach as well....how many good imports has the league had...e.g. a player who has played at the top level in a decent league or manager to have managed at the top level in a decent league....none and thats why its not good

[gustavo]

:rolleyes: define a "decent" league then?

[Slash/ED]

My better sense is telling me to write you off as a complete wind-up merchant, so this will be my last contribution...


Right so. You believe that. The reality can be seen by the example of Inter losing their first-leg game in Helsingborgs in the Champions' League in 2000 - the manager didn't last very long after that. And before you start up again, it's a one-off by necessity - results of that magnitude don't come along too often.

Inter WENT OUT of the champions league, despite Robbie Keanes best efforts where he won a to-be-missed penalty iirc, Shels WENT THROUGH against KR. It's completley different. Again, Milan scraped through on away goals the year they won the bloody thing against a team who a year later were playing Shamrock Rovers in the inter toto cup.



I'm not - I am merely picking the numerous occasions when Shels showed they weren't up to it. Shels have had some good results obviously, but there are too many poor ones, which is my point. If you want to discount this game, fine, but then Heary's performances against a pre-season Depor also can't be considered for the exact reason.

Right, Wolves 1-0 Manchester United, Manchester United 0-0 Exeter, get Keane out of the international side?

You're again ignoreing the fact that whatever about Shels in those games, Heary proved himself in every single one. He can't single handedly win games, he's a right back for christ sake.



So you're better than them, but any results which show otherwise are to be discounted? Was it the pressure got to your team? Doesn't say much for their ability to play international football. Did they choke on the big occasion? Ditto. Big international matches are one-off too.

So you lose in a final you have to be chokers and aren't upto it at international level? AC Milan, again, must be crap then due to throwing away a 3 goal lead to a side who finished below Everton. UPSETS HAPPEN IN FINALS. That's the bloody nature of cup finals, that's the whole point. Linfield knocked Glentoran out of the setanta cup yet finished below them in the league, who's better? You'd have to go with Glentoran.



:rolleyes:

Let's put it this way - if we'd drawn 2-2 against the Faroes (or Cyprus) away and 0-0 at home, would we be in a position to qualify now? Draws against substandard teams aren't good enough in international football. Quite simple really.

No what's quite simple really is you've dodged the question. Knock out ties do not = league matches, that's quite simple really. Say we finish second and somehow draw the Faroes in a play off. You're offered a 2-2 away and 0-0 at home, you're going to say no? Incidentally if draws against substandard teams aren't good enough in international football half our side have proven themselves time and time again to not be upto it, lets not forget that only one Irish side has ever won in Macedonia and it ain't the international one.



1) There haven't been many games where Shels have tested themselves against decent teams, so I can only pick a few results. Those few results are a notable percentage of the games available to me.
2) I'm not saying it's impossible. I am saying I think it is the case though. Big difference. I'm calling for a bit of realism.

1) There have been plenty in Hearys career. This is an argument about weather Heary is good enough or not, he has excelled himself in every single one. If we plays well and we lose it's hardly his fault is it? Heary btw did not play v Linfield.
2) I disagree, if we can turn down someone who got MOTM against Deportivo and who has proven himself to be a quality player against Lille, Depor, Split, Ljubljana, Brøndby IF and Rosenborg then we're in a far FAR healthier position than I thought.


I see. So irrespective of what the manager who signed them thinks - who, let's face it, is more knowledgeable than you or I - or what the manager who picks the players for the international team - who, let's face it, is also more knowledgeable than you or I - you are just going to persevere in your own view that Heary is better than Maybury. Fair enough so.

So managers always get it right? You couldn't argue when McCarthy was in charge that Duff up front was a load of nonsense because sure he's a manager so he knows more than you or I?

[pineapple stu]

Inter WENT OUT of the champions league, despite Robbie Keane's best efforts where he won a to-be-missed penalty iirc, Shels WENT THROUGH against KR.
He was sacked after the first leg, I think. Negates your point.

I promised myself I wouldn't come back here, but have to negate some of your stupider points...


Right, Wolves 1-0 Manchester United, Manchester United 0-0 Exeter, get Keane out of the international side?
Keane didn't play v. Exeter! Wolves are very good team. Though I'm sure Shels would take them... :rolleyes:


let's not forget that only one Irish side has ever won in Macedonia and it ain't the international one.
Are you trying to compare Sloga Jugomagnat and the Macedonian international team? You might as well equate beating Shels and beating Ireland.


No what's quite simple really is you've dodged the question. Knock out ties do not = league matches, that's quite simple really. Say we finish second and somehow draw the Faroes in a play off.
Well, let's only get eL players in for play-off games then! :rolleyes:

League-format games make up 90% of cometitive international ties. Drawing them is no good to us.


I disagree, if we can turn down someone who got MOTM against Deportivo
By your own argument, the game against Depor counts for little as Depor were in pre-season and weren't fully fit.

[Slash/ED]

He was sacked after the first leg, I think. Negates your point.

That's completley idiotic then, and it cost them.



Keane didn't play v. Exeter! Wolves are very good team. Though I'm sure Shels would take them... :rolleyes:

Point is they finished last, it didn't mean Man U were on their level. I suppose Man U are chokers or whatever crap you were saying about Hearyless Shels loseing to Linfield?


Well, let's only get eL players in for play-off games then! :rolleyes:

League-format games make up 90% of cometitive international ties. Drawing them is no good to us.

You've, once more, ignored the question.

You can't compare league format with knock out ties. Different ball game. That's idiotic. Knock out ties are about progressing no matter how.

Points you seem to have completley ignored there...

-Milan scraped through on away goals the year they won the bloody thing against a team who a year later were playing Shamrock Rovers in the inter toto cup.

-whatever about Shels in those games, Heary proved himself in every single one. He can't single handedly win games, he's a right back for christ sake.

-if draws against substandard teams aren't good enough in international football half our side have proven themselves time and time again to not be upto it, lets not forget that only one Irish side has ever won in Macedonia and it ain't the international one.

-If we can turn down someone who got MOTM against Deportivo and who has proven himself to be a quality player against Lille, Depor, Split, Ljubljana, Brøndby IF and Rosenborg then we're in a far FAR healthier position than I thought.

[pineapple stu]

You've, once more, ignored the question.

You can't compare league format with knock out ties. Different ball game. That's idiotic. Knock out ties are about progressing no matter how.
So are you saying that if Shels had been playing KR in a league game, they would have beaten them? Are you saying that Shels played for a 0-0 at home because they knew it would be enough? If so - given what had happened against Hibernians - they were idiots. I'm saying that they drew 2-2 and 0-0 because that's as good as they were. League game or knock-out tie, they went out to get the best possible result, and 2-2 and 0-0 was all they could manage. And in that case, they're not good enough to play international football.


Milan scraped through on away goals the year they won the bloody thing against a team who a year later were playing Shamrock Rovers in the inter toto cup.
What's the relevance of "playing" Rovers? I'd highlight the fact that they "destroyed" Rovers. It again doesn't matter because (a) Liberec are a good side and (b) I've repeatedly pointed out that your point about drawing twice with KR - which led to this particular diversion - is silly.


let's not forget that only one Irish side has ever won in Macedonia and it ain't the international one.
You're not actually after repeating that stupid point after I've just pointed out how silly it is, are you?!


-If we can turn down someone who got MOTM against Deportivo and who has proven himself to be a quality player against Lille, Depor, Split, Ljubljana, Brøndby IF and Rosenborg then we're in a far FAR healthier position than I thought.
As I said - using your own argument about out of season - the Depor game doesn't count for much as they were in pre-season.

[Slash/ED]

So are you saying that if Shels had been playing KR in a league game, they would have beaten them? Are you saying that Shels played for a 0-0 at home because they knew it would be enough? If so - given what had happened against Hibernians - they were idiots. I'm saying that they drew 2-2 and 0-0 because that's as good as they were. League game or knock-out tie, they went out to get the best possible result, and 2-2 and 0-0 was all they could manage. And in that case, they're not good enough to play international football.

So we weren't good enough to beat KR but were to beat Split? Yes we played for a draw and I agree, it was stupid, but Fenlon is a negative manager.

If they're not good enough to play international footbnall because they progressed past KR than I'll mention Macedonia for the 5th time, AC Milan for the 5th time and many others in the past.


What's the relevance of "playing" Rovers? I'd highlight the fact that they "destroyed" Rovers. It again doesn't matter because (a) Liberec are a good side and (b) I've repeatedly pointed out that your point about drawing twice with KR - which led to this particular diversion - is silly.

what you're spectacularly failing to see is that Milan on on a different planet to Liberec, who were only in the inter toto the year after, playing Rovers has no relevence, the inter toto does. Yet, Milan couldn't 'beat' them in your farcial view of knock out football, they only got through on away goals. That proves they're only on Liberecs level does it? Yeah, sure it does.



You're not actually after repeating that stupid point after I've just pointed out how silly it is, are you?!

You said "Are you trying to compare Sloga Jugomagnat and the Macedonian international team? You might as well equate beating Shels and beating Ireland." Which I missed, did you edit that in later?

Again, spectacularly failing to see the point being made here. Are Macedonia a good measuring stick for international class footballers? No. Ireland have lost and drawn away to them. Ergo, by retarded logic 101, none of the players, not one of them, who played in either game can be considered international class. Not that the team Shels played are the same as the Macedonian team, but that Macedonia are rubbish, and we lost and drew with them.


As I said - using your own argument about out of season - the Depor game doesn't count for much as they were in pre-season.

So you're saying Maybury could keep Luque in his pocket two games in a row if he played him a week before his season started? Yeah, sure he could.

Even if you discount the Deportivo game, which is stupid, you can't discount the rest.

Heary has proven himself time and time again.

[pineapple stu]

Even if you discount the Deportivo game, which is stupid

The Portadown match was at the start of the season and they had the fitness advantage,
So you're happy to play down the Portadown game, yet want to count the Depor and Hajduk games? Contradiction, no?


So we weren't good enough to beat KR but were to beat Split? Yes we played for a draw and I agree, it was stupid, but Fenlon is a negative manager.
Let's be quite honest here. One of the main reasons behind summer soccer is that it is a cheat when it comes to Europe - we're in season, most other nations are out of season. It's a huge advantage. I don't think you'd get by Hajduk when they're in season. You would be hammered by Depor. You did get hammered (on the pitch at least, though somehow not on the scoreboard) by Lille. KR were the only team you faced who were in season - i.e. who you didn't have that massive advantage over - and you culdn't beat them (I don't for a second believe that the team said "Hey, 0-0's good enough, so let's try for that"). But hey, good enough for the Irish international squad! :rolleyes:

I think you need to take off your Cork-tinted glasses here. Heary's a good player. Most of the Shels players are good players. But the fact is that they aren't good enough to be in the international squad. Even those who are former internationals (like Ndo and Moore) were a long way removed from international football when they came to Shels. That's how far removed the eL is from international football, unfortunately.

[ColinR]

i was of the opinion this was a bit of a wind up.

seriously do you really think that heary is anyway near good enough for a call up?????

[pineapple stu]

So was I. Unfortunately, my biggest weakness is ignoring idiots and wind-ups. I have to ensure people aren't taken in by their nonsense. You'd hate to see me talking to George Bush! :p

[Slash/ED]

So you're happy to play down the Portadown game, yet want to count the Depor and Hajduk games? Contradiction, no?

Hajduk Split were already well into their season when they played us. Deportivo weren't at their best when they played us but they're still a good team.


Let's be quite honest here. One of the main reasons behind summer soccer is that it is a cheat when it comes to Europe - we're in season, most other nations are out of season. It's a huge advantage. I don't think you'd get by Hajduk when they're in season. You would be hammered by Depor. You did get hammered (on the pitch at least, though somehow not on the scoreboard) by Lille. KR were the only team you faced who were in season - i.e. who you didn't have that massive advantage over - and you culdn't beat them (I don't for a second believe that the team said "Hey, 0-0's good enough, so let's try for that"). But hey, good enough for the Irish international squad! :rolleyes:

You're spectacularly wrong. Lille, Split and KR had all started their season by the time we played them. Summer soccer isn't a cheat, it's an equaliser.


I think you need to take off your Cork-tinted glasses here. Heary's a good player. Most of the Shels players are good players. But the fact is that they aren't good enough to be in the international squad. Even those who are former internationals (like Ndo and Moore) were a long way removed from international football when they came to Shels. That's how far removed the eL is from international football, unfortunately.

Ndos last cap was a year before joing Shels. Moore is not international class.

Fact is, Heary has proved himself against better teams than Maybury has played and embarassed himself against. You can discount that if you want, it's the Irish teams loss when that clown goes out and embarasses himself like he has done on a few occasions playing for Ireland while Heary, who has played and excelled against a better standard of opposition than Ireland play against more often than not, sits at home.

I'm not saying he's world class, but he's better cover than the crap we've capped. If we had a squad of premiership class players to pick from it wouldn't be a debate, but we don't.

[pineapple stu]

Hajduk Split were already well into their season when they played us.
One game, in fact, according to rsssf.com.


You're spectacularly wrong. Lille, Split and KR had all started their season by the time we played them.
And I've allowed for that - Lille destroyed you, Hajduk were only just into their season - I'm slightly out there, but they still weren't fully match fit - and KR held you, indicating your quality.


Summer soccer isn't a cheat, it's an equaliser.
Ah come on now. How is it an equaliser? It equalises us against the bigger and better teams? That's a cheat. It's a cheat I'm happy to take, but the fact is that it means we've a better chance of getting better results. The better results are because of the time we're playing, not necessarily because the players are much better than previous seasons.

[Junior]

Was quite enjoying that................


How about this for a little tester.

We get 5 International Managers (perhaps one from each continent) preferably managers with lower level of knowledge of the domestic game in UK & Ireland (being where our players are based).

Someone neutral assembles the top 30 irish players in the UK + top 10 irish players in the EL.

Two weeks of trials, then the 5 managers above have to assemble their best 16 man squad for competing in a WCQ.

Would there be any EL players selected in the 16? How many of our current players are picked because of the high profile of the league they play in or is it totally on ability factor.

what do you reckon?

[Colbert Report]

LOI is an absolute joke, it's full of plumbers and janitors. The Premiership is arguably the best (certainly top three) league in the world. No comparison. The fourth place striker on the worst team in the Premiership is miles ahead of the best player in the LOI.

[Slash/ED]

Ignoreing the original debate and moving on from the EL entirely, as it the thread was closed so that's the end of it, there's just NO WAY the premiership is even argubley the best league in the world imo

[mypost]

Let's be quite honest here. One of the main reasons behind summer soccer is that it is a cheat when it comes to Europe - we're in season, most other nations are out of season. It's a huge advantage. I don't think you'd get by Hajduk when they're in season. You would be hammered by Depor. You did get hammered (on the pitch at least, though somehow not on the scoreboard) by Lille. KR were the only team you faced who were in season - i.e. who you didn't have that massive advantage over - and you culdn't beat them :rolleyes:

So how do you explain CSKA Moscow qualifying for the CL last season? Did Rangers blame their defeat on the fact that Moscow play in the Summer? How do you explain how they later went on to win the UEFA Cup, having overcome the disadvatage that all teams who play Summer football face, -playing and beating teams in February, and March when they hadn't played for several months, against teams in mid-season?

You're focussing too much on specific results. You have to look at the overall situation. Yes, summer football evens out any disadvatages that Irish teams face in the early rounds in Europe. By taking advantage of it, our clubs play better teams from other countries more often, the clubs' players benefit individually while gaining more exposure at the same time, and the league's co-efficient rises. They only won once in Europe last season, but Shels ultimately progressed to the 3rd qualifying round of last year's CL. As a result, Shels are seeded for the 1st round CL qualifiers this year. If they do as well as they did last year, or qualify for the group stages, (possible if they get a decent draw, and hit form) then perhaps our CL participants next year, will go straight to the 2nd qualifying round. Improving European results is, to a certain extent, what summer football is designed to do. If that happens consistently, Summer football will have worked.

[mypost]

You can't compare the bottom teams in Division One with the top teams in the eL Premier. You have to compare like with like - is playing West Ham, Sunderland, Derby, etc. more of a test than playing Shels, Cork, Bohs, etc.? Yes, I think it is. Is playing Notts Forest, Crewe, Coventry more of a test than playing UCD, Harps or Rovers? We've played Crewe and Coventry and been blown away by them, so it most certainly is.

With respect, you would expect Crewe and Coventry to blow away a bunch of students at any given time. UCD are one of the poorest sides in the NL Premier Division, who are regularly relegated from the top flight. If said sides played better teams like Derry, Cork, Longford, Shels, Bohs, or Pats, at this time of the year particularly, they would lose more than they would win. Recently, Spurs played Bohs when Bohs were in pre-season and couldn't beat them, so what hope for Coventry and Crewe? For every Derby, and West Ham in the Championship, there's a Crewe, a Gillingham, a Plymouth, and a Burnley. It's full of joke teams, crap players, and poor football. How playing in that league against such poor opposition, entitles someone to play for Ireland against a side like France or Italy, baffles me.


(re: J. Byrne)I'm not basing my impression on the Poland game. I'm basing my impression on eight opportunities against European opposition in which he didn't score, missed a number of sitters and was generally - not just by me - thought to have been poor.

Every striker goes through a bad patch. Some more than others, one example being D. Connolly, - it happens when he plays for Ireland. Yet Kerr picks him when we're stuck for strikers, because of the "nobody else" whinge. The truth is that we have alternative strikers available for selection, all he has to do is go and look for them. Something he simply refuses to do.

[the 12 th man]

With respect, you would expect Crewe and Coventry to blow away a bunch of students at any given time. UCD are one of the poorest sides in the NL Premier Division,


how long is it since you've seen them play ?,
they have improved a lot and are a thorn in everybodys side and on the day can beat any of the teams in the e/l prem . i presume "a bunch of students is :rolleyes: " as they are far from it.


promote your own teams :)