B Teams

[EalingGreen]

Some in Donegal have never accepted it with the "Go back to your own league" Banners.
Still a bit of an overreaction by them Derry wans, I'd say:

https://www.donegalsporthub.com/17245-2/

[EatYerGreens]

Still a bit of an overreaction by them Derry wans, I'd say:

https://www.donegalsporthub.com/17245-2/

From the man who literally just two posts earlier on a different topic wrote :


….nor am I seeking to score points etc.

:D

#SquabblingNordies

[EalingGreen]

From the man who literally just two posts earlier on a different topic wrote :

[Originally Posted by EalingGreen]
….nor am I seeking to score points etc.

:D

#SquabblingNordies
Nor was I seeking to score points.

Then. ;)

#PickYerTargets

[Neish]

Some in Donegal have never accepted it with the "Go back to your own league" Banners.

Some in Derry can't take a bit of banter it seems, and Derry fans are in no place to be chatting about controversial banners being hung in their home grounds

[EatYerGreens]

Some in Derry can't take a bit of banter it seems, and Derry fans are in no place to be chatting about controversial banners being hung in their home grounds

Tell us more

[EatYerGreens]

EYG - I've already said that I don't see a pyramid as a silver bullet. I don't know why you keep saying that I do, but it does indicate that you're not really engaging in a proper debate, which is disappointing to be honest. So can I ask you to stop putting words in my mouth and arguing points that I'm not making?

But your point is that there should be a pyramid and it'll work itself our through Darwinism. And your only evidence for this is that it works in other leagues. Yet the ridiculously high turnover of clubs in the LOI over the last century (show me another league which has faced such high instability/turnover?), combined with the presence of so many other sports competing for fans, sponsorship and attention, means that we ARE unique in Europe (again - show me any other country which has 4 sports genuinely competing for attention ?). So my point is that unless a pyramid system is augmented in a sensible way, it'll just result in an LOI with even less regional spread than at current. Which I'll explain in a minute, with evidence.


You say that you're arguing for a pyramid system as well - but you're not. You're arguing for a franchise-based system where clubs are identified on strategic grounds and parachuted into the league regardless of on-field ability. That's the exact opposite of a pyramid. You're arguing that you sit down with a few clubs, give them 5-10 years to do up a bit of fundraising plan, throw a couple of quasi-competitive League Cup games at them and things will work out - but there isn't the remotest idea as to why this should happen. Or what will happen if things don't work out.

You accuse me of putting words in your mouth, and then you do exactly the same thing to me. I've been very clear if you read my last few pots on this, and I'll spell it out again here. THERE SHOULD BE A PYRAMID. But - and this is the crucial bit - leaving it just to Darwinism won't work, and will just led to an LOi that is even more concentrated in a small number of areas.

THE PROBLEM
So let's look at the problem with just a Darwinian pyramid. Everyone pretty much agrees that the last thing the LOI needs is more clubs in the very same places where it already has clubs. Yet if you look at the intermediate game- which would be the tier feeding into an LOI- where are all the strongest clubs ? They're in Dublin city, Cork City, Limerick City, Galway City. In otherwords - they're in places where we already have an LOI club, and no-one really believes things would be better off with another one. And there is evidence to support this view (and none for the 'a pyramid will just naturally work out' view).

THE EVIDENCE
The problem is that Intermediate football in Ireland is not at all evenly spread in terms of either strength or presence. The strongest intermediate structures are in Dublin city (the LSL), and hopefully we can all agree that even more LOI teams in Dublin are unlikely to be great for Irish football. If you look at the MSL, it is almost entirely clubs from in and immediately around Cork City. Of its 10 Senior Premier teams, only 1 club is not from the Cork city area = Middleton. Though at barely over 20kms from Cork city it's hardly out of the orbit of the existing LOI club there. Cobh Wanderers are also in the MSL Top tier, but are arguably in the commute belt for Cotk City - plus a second LOI team in Cobh would just be beyond crazy. And the second tier of the MSL has only 2 of its 10 teams not from the Cork city area (Bandon and Blarney). Connacht hasn't had a senior league for about two decades now - and when it did it was dominated by teams from Galway city, and the occasional dominance by Galway United or Sligo Rovers reserves. And the last time the LOI had a 3rd tier attached, it resulted in there being 3 clubs from Galway city in the senior game, which everyone acknowledges was a disaster. So that leaves the Ulster Senior League, which is dominated by teams in the east of the county - in proximity to the existing LOI club there, plus the Reserves form Derry and Harps. Again - none of which would be considered by most people to help the LOI to have in the senior game.

There are other leagues in other places that clubs participate in etc, but the overall picture is undeniably of intermediate football generally being strongest in the cities and/or areas where there already are LOI teams.

On top of that - whilst there is no national intermediate league to know who would be the top dogs every year if you put them all together in some ay to feed into the LOI, there is an Intermediate Cup. Which - accepting for it being a knockout tournament - has tended to produce a very consistent picture about the geography of the best teams in that tournament. They're usually from either Dublin city or Cork City. In fact - with the exception of the Maynooth University team in 2018, you have to go back 25yrs for a winner who wasn't from Dublin or Cork Cities (to clarify - I am aware that Avondale are from Carrigaline and Rockmount are from Whitechurch, but they're basically commuting suburbs of Cork city). Two teams in particular - Avondale United and Crumlin United - dominated the cup in the last decade, showing that their success wasn't just a lucky cup run.

Then let's look at who the weakest teams in the LOI are at the moment. It's basically Wexford and Athlone by some distance.

So if we had a Darwinian pyramid system in place right now, we'd more than likely be taking an intermediate team from an area which already HAS an LOI team and swapping out a provincial team instead. And we'd probably do it repeatedly over time - thereby concentrating the League into an even smaller geographical spread. With no guarantee that the likes of Athlone or Wexford would make it back up again any time soon (or even stay in football, in the case of Wexford).

THE SOLUTION - An Augmented Pyramid
So what I'm proposing is to HAVE a pyramid system. I repeat - HAVE A PYRMAID ! But instead of just letting nature take its course - we accept that that seems likely to have negative overall consequences for the spread of the LOI. And therefore that we should do what we can to try to ensure that doesn't happen, without upsetting the way that football works. Hence the idea of looking at clubs with real potential around the county (in terms of population, facilities etc) and working with them to get them into better shape organisationally etc, so that they are better able to compete with clubs in either the cities or in areas which already have an LOI presence. Because they're obviously not able to compete consistently with them in the likes of the MSL, USL or Intermediate Cup right now - as the evidence shows. So help the likes of Castlebar Celtic, Tralee Dynamoes, Mullingar Athletic/Town etc etc - EXISTING CLUBS, NOT FRANCHISES - to be more competitive and to hopefully instil in them a desire to want to progress up the pyramid so they are able to COMPETE their way there (not be parachuted in).

Hopefully that explains what I'm proposing, the rationale behind it, and the evidence that undermines it. Feel free to present evidence which shows that it isn't likely a Darwinian pyramid will just shrink the reach and geographical spread of LOI football if you have it. Thanks.

[Nesta99]

I may just have been beaten on lengthy posts by EYG:mad:

[pineapple stu]

But your point is that there should be a pyramid and it'll work itself our through Darwinism. And your only evidence for this is that it works in other leagues.
Working in literally every other league in Europe (except Holland, bizarrely) is a fairly good argument.


Yet the ridiculously high turnover of clubs in the LOI over the last century (show me another league which has faced such high instability/turnover?) combined with the presence of so many other sports competing for fans, sponsorship and attention, means that we ARE unique in Europe (again - show me any other country which has 4 sports genuinely competing for attention ?).
Lots of leagues have member instability, particularly as you go east. Take the Latvian top flight in 2010. Ten teams, of which only three are still in existence in the same form today (Ventspils, Daugava and Jelgava) Or the Lithuanian top flight of the same season - 11 teams, of which 6 don't exist any more. Or take the 2010/11 top flight in larger Bulgaria - 16 teams, of which only 7 haven't been expelled, gone backrupt or forcibly relegated in that time (and one of those has suffered four relegations). The LoI has had its upheaval in that time - of the 2010 league, Sporting Fingal and Galway left. But I think I've shown instability elsewhere - or I can show more leagues if you want.

I've already covered the suggestion that football is Ireland's fourth spot, but I will add that if the only three football clubs in the country were Shamrock Rovers, Cork City and Galway United, and if they had all the national team players playing for them, and if they were regularly playing and beating Celtic, Rangers, Arsenal, Man Utd, PSG, etc, then the interest would be way in excess of rugby's at the moment. Football is bigger than rugby here; the LoI though is not bigger than the Pro14. You're mixing that up.

So straight off, let's dismiss with your suggestion that Ireland is different. It's just not.


You accuse me of putting words in your mouth, and then you do exactly the same thing to me. I've been very clear if you read my last few pots on this, and I'll spell it out again here. THERE SHOULD BE A PYRAMID. But - and this is the crucial bit - leaving it just to Darwinism won't work, and will just led to an LOi that is even more concentrated in a small number of areas.
The thing is, you can say "THERE SHOULD BE A PYRAMID", but if what you then describe isn't a pyramid, then it doesn't matter how many caps you use, I can still call you out on that. And selecting teams to support based on an analysis of regional areas where senior clubs could fit in and then actively supporting them in a bid to be elected to a closed-shop senior system in 5/10 years' time is not a pyramid.


Everyone pretty much agrees that the last thing the LOI needs is more clubs in the very same places where it already has clubs.
I don't really agree with this. There is nothing to be gained by, say, barring Crumlin United (who aren't interested in promotion, but let's say they were) while leaving Wexford in the league to get beaten 8-0 every week just because Wexford happen to play outside Dublin. There's certainly nothing to be gained by barring Crumlin and reprieving Cabo from relegation. You don't seem to get that a point of a pyramid is that unsuitable teams get relegated out just as quickly as they get promoted in.

But I will also point out (and have before pointed out) that the LSL/MSL are badly-organised leagues in their geographic specificity. Again, for a pyramid to work, then the whole thing has to be properly joined up, rather than this 19th century anachronism of Meath/Wexford/Wicklow District Leagues. Put Arklow Town/Navan Town/North End/whoever in the LSL and they will improve by virtue of playing stronger opposition and being able to attract/keep stronger players. Who wants to play in the Meath District League? It's no wonder these teams aren't great. And similar would hold for Munster (albeit that the Limerick portion in particular is probably much better defined)


So if we had a Darwinian pyramid system in place right now, we'd more than likely be taking an intermediate team from an area which already HAS an LOI team and swapping out a provincial team instead. And we'd probably do it repeatedly over time - thereby concentrating the League into an even smaller geographical spread. With no guarantee that the likes of Athlone or Wexford would make it back up again any time soon (or even stay in football, in the case of Wexford).
Why should Athlone or Wexford have guaranteed spots in the LoI? They're ****ing basket cases of clubs. You say you want a pyramid but then you suggest Athlone or Wexford should have guaranteed spots in the LoI - that doesn't stack up. If in a pyramid they were to get relegated to the next level down (the LSL, say), then the onus is on them to put their house in order, come back stronger and earn promotion by merit. Your suggestion is to leave them there to ship double-figures because of where they come from. That can't possibly improve things. And in the meantime, North End United might win the LSL but you'd tell them "Thanks but no thanks" even though they might be better equipped for senior football than Wexford?


[/B]So what I'm proposing is to HAVE a pyramid system. I repeat - HAVE A PYRMAID !
Set it out for us there so. Because you don't have a pyramid - but I'm curious to see what you think you think is a pyramid.

Because when I see stuff like -


But instead of just letting nature take its course


we should do what we can to try to ensure that doesn't happen
Then you're clearly not talking about a proper pyramid system.


So help the likes of Castlebar Celtic, Tralee Dynamoes, Mullingar Athletic/Town etc etc - EXISTING CLUBS, NOT FRANCHISES
I get that they're existing clubs - but if you're supporting/promoting them on the basis of their geographic location, potentially above another club in the same area (see your Wexford/North End United bias for example), then what you're effectively saying is that Tralee would get the senior franchise for football in Kerry.


to be more competitive and to hopefully instil in them a desire to want to progress up the pyramid so they are able to COMPETE their way there (not be parachuted in).
Hold on a sec there - earlier you spoke about "By the start of the 2024 season everyone involved should be clear on if and who is ready to join the league the following season". If you're saying that selected clubs have a target year to join the league if they meet set criteria - of which being good on the pitch isn't mentioned - then you absolutely are talking about parachuting them in.

So the problem here is that -

1) You keep thinking Ireland is different (when I've shown it's not)
2) You keep saying you're proposing a pyramid system while every suggestion you give actually indicates the opposite
3) You think regional spread is the only thing that is really holding the league back, and that cannon-fodder like Athlone or Wexford are benefitting the league at present purely because they're not in Dublin (with all due respect to Wexford and Athlone fans of course)
4) You think the league will be benefitted by taking teams currently not good enough for the top of the LSL/MSL, giving them a couple of token League Cup games, maybe having them play against each other, and giving them a bit of a talk on how to fundraise, and once those clubs join the league, it will be the better for it? But you've shown no reason why this would actually work

You can see why I'm not taking your suggestion overly seriously when compared to the alternative which works in every country in Europe (again, with the bizarre exception of Holland)

[Neish]

Tell us more

a certain red & white flag with a black emblem most associated with 1930's & 40's Germany. Was hung in the home fans side of the Brandywell a number of years ago, granted it was removed fairly quickly. But the fact is was there in the first place s a disgrace

[sbgawa]

I may just have been beaten on lengthy posts by EYG:mad:

form is temporary, class is permanant

[DCSIL]

a certain red & white flag with a black emblem most associated with 1930's & 40's Germany. Was hung in the home fans side of the Brandywell a number of years ago, granted it was removed fairly quickly. But the fact is was there in the first place s a disgrace

“Was removed quickly”

Not surprised. It is Derry. Whilst if Mussolini or Idi Amin promised enough free stuff Donegal people would vote for them.

[EatYerGreens]

Working in literally every other league in Europe (except Holland, bizarrely) is a fairly good argument.


Lots of leagues have member instability, particularly as you go east. Take the Latvian top flight in 2010. Ten teams, of which only three are still in existence in the same form today (Ventspils, Daugava and Jelgava) Or the Lithuanian top flight of the same season - 11 teams, of which 6 don't exist any more. Or take the 2010/11 top flight in larger Bulgaria - 16 teams, of which only 7 haven't been expelled, gone backrupt or forcibly relegated in that time (and one of those has suffered four relegations). The LoI has had its upheaval in that time - of the 2010 league, Sporting Fingal and Galway left. But I think I've shown instability elsewhere - or I can show more leagues if you want.

I've already covered the suggestion that football is Ireland's fourth spot, but I will add that if the only three football clubs in the country were Shamrock Rovers, Cork City and Galway United, and if they had all the national team players playing for them, and if they were regularly playing and beating Celtic, Rangers, Arsenal, Man Utd, PSG, etc, then the interest would be way in excess of rugby's at the moment. Football is bigger than rugby here; the LoI though is not bigger than the Pro14. You're mixing that up.

So straight off, let's dismiss with your suggestion that Ireland is different. It's just not.


The thing is, you can say "THERE SHOULD BE A PYRAMID", but if what you then describe isn't a pyramid, then it doesn't matter how many caps you use, I can still call you out on that. And selecting teams to support based on an analysis of regional areas where senior clubs could fit in and then actively supporting them in a bid to be elected to a closed-shop senior system in 5/10 years' time is not a pyramid.


I don't really agree with this. There is nothing to be gained by, say, barring Crumlin United (who aren't interested in promotion, but let's say they were) while leaving Wexford in the league to get beaten 8-0 every week just because Wexford happen to play outside Dublin. There's certainly nothing to be gained by barring Crumlin and reprieving Cabo from relegation. You don't seem to get that a point of a pyramid is that unsuitable teams get relegated out just as quickly as they get promoted in.

But I will also point out (and have before pointed out) that the LSL/MSL are badly-organised leagues in their geographic specificity. Again, for a pyramid to work, then the whole thing has to be properly joined up, rather than this 19th century anachronism of Meath/Wexford/Wicklow District Leagues. Put Arklow Town/Navan Town/North End/whoever in the LSL and they will improve by virtue of playing stronger opposition and being able to attract/keep stronger players. Who wants to play in the Meath District League? It's no wonder these teams aren't great. And similar would hold for Munster (albeit that the Limerick portion in particular is probably much better defined)


Why should Athlone or Wexford have guaranteed spots in the LoI? They're ****ing basket cases of clubs. You say you want a pyramid but then you suggest Athlone or Wexford should have guaranteed spots in the LoI - that doesn't stack up. If in a pyramid they were to get relegated to the next level down (the LSL, say), then the onus is on them to put their house in order, come back stronger and earn promotion by merit. Your suggestion is to leave them there to ship double-figures because of where they come from. That can't possibly improve things. And in the meantime, North End United might win the LSL but you'd tell them "Thanks but no thanks" even though they might be better equipped for senior football than Wexford?


Set it out for us there so. Because you don't have a pyramid - but I'm curious to see what you think you think is a pyramid.

Because when I see stuff like -




Then you're clearly not talking about a proper pyramid system.


I get that they're existing clubs - but if you're supporting/promoting them on the basis of their geographic location, potentially above another club in the same area (see your Wexford/North End United bias for example), then what you're effectively saying is that Tralee would get the senior franchise for football in Kerry.


Hold on a sec there - earlier you spoke about "By the start of the 2024 season everyone involved should be clear on if and who is ready to join the league the following season". If you're saying that selected clubs have a target year to join the league if they meet set criteria - of which being good on the pitch isn't mentioned - then you absolutely are talking about parachuting them in.

So the problem here is that -

1) You keep thinking Ireland is different (when I've shown it's not)
2) You keep saying you're proposing a pyramid system while every suggestion you give actually indicates the opposite
3) You think regional spread is the only thing that is really holding the league back, and that cannon-fodder like Athlone or Wexford are benefitting the league at present purely because they're not in Dublin (with all due respect to Wexford and Athlone fans of course)
4) You think the league will be benefitted by taking teams currently not good enough for the top of the LSL/MSL, giving them a couple of token League Cup games, maybe having them play against each other, and giving them a bit of a talk on how to fundraise, and once those clubs join the league, it will be the better for it? But you've shown no reason why this would actually work

You can see why I'm not taking your suggestion overly seriously when compared to the alternative which works in every country in Europe (again, with the bizarre exception of Holland)

I officially give up. No matter how many times I make it clear that I support a pyramid system - you know, where teams get promoted up and down on the pitch - you continually tell me that I'm not.

So it's pointless. I give up.

[sbgawa]

“Was removed quickly”

Not surprised. It is Derry. Whilst if Mussolini or Idi Amin promised enough free stuff Donegal people would vote for them.

Donegal is solid sinn fein now and they promise everything for free for everyone and no one has to pay due to the magic money trees growing on the beara penisula so he kind of has you there guys :)

[pineapple stu]

I officially give up. No matter how many times I make it clear that I support a pyramid system - you know, where teams get promoted up and down on the pitch - you continually tell me that I'm not.

So it's pointless. I give up.
Except you haven't shown that. You've described a system where you select potential new clubs, help them with fundraising plans and say if they meet targets (none related to on-pitch performance), then they'll be in the league in 5 years. You've described a system where Athlone and Wexford shouldn't be relegated as they'd have no guarantee of being promoted again. You've described a system where you would actively prevent clubs from certain parts of the country being promoted.

I don't know what you think a pyramid is, but that's not one.

In the meantime you think no other country in Europe has the problems we do with clubs folding, that what happened at Bury and Tralee is comparable, and that rugby is a bigger sport than football here. You want regional teams with local support, decent facilities and that are well-run, but you point to Warrenpoint as a black mark for the IL.

I wonder at times if you know what you're talking about.

Just for clarity - my pyramid would be PD -> FD -> LSL/MSL/USL/CSL and have those then go all the way to the bottom, regionalising as you go further down. Or you could remove the FD from that and expand the PD. Either way, any team can - subject to licensing - go from the bottom to the top and back again by winning (or losing) games, not by having a pretty (or ugly) face

What's your pyramid so we can be clear what you're talking about?

[nigel-harps1954]

There's a million and one ways a pyramid system works in Ireland, and none of which the FAI are willing to do. Especially while so many of the FAI council members have vested interests in junior and intermediate leagues.

The only hope is the new CEO guy making a bold move to reform football here, but even that seems incredibly unlikely.

[EatYerGreens]

Except you haven't shown that. You've described a system where you select potential new clubs, help them with fundraising plans and say if they meet targets (none related to on-pitch performance), then they'll be in the league in 5 years. You've described a system where Athlone and Wexford shouldn't be relegated as they'd have no guarantee of being promoted again. You've described a system where you would actively prevent clubs from certain parts of the country being promoted.

I don't know what you think a pyramid is, but that's not one.

In the meantime you think no other country in Europe has the problems we do with clubs folding, that what happened at Bury and Tralee is comparable, and that rugby is a bigger sport than football here. You want regional teams with local support, decent facilities and that are well-run, but you point to Warrenpoint as a black mark for the IL.

I wonder at times if you know what you're talking about.

Just for clarity - my pyramid would be PD -> FD -> LSL/MSL/USL/CSL and have those then go all the way to the bottom, regionalising as you go further down. Or you could remove the FD from that and expand the PD. Either way, any team can - subject to licensing - go from the bottom to the top and back again by winning (or losing) games, not by having a pretty (or ugly) face

What's your pyramid so we can be clear what you're talking about?

Yet again you're just making stuff up.

It's pointless, so I'm done.

I guess we shouldn't be surprised to see a fan of a small club with no fans in Dublin argue in favour of a system that seems likely to result in more small clubs with no fans from Dublin in the league :p #SelfProtection

[pineapple stu]

What am I making up?

If you want to actually pick a point and argue it, I'm happy to do that. But you keep on posting stuff that's demonstrably untrue and then whining when you're called up on it, all without actually saying anything to counter my points.

Oh, and UCD were promoted from 8th in the LSL to the LoI B, and from 8th in the LoI B to the LoI. That's daft, and an inherent weakness in the current structure. Which, as far as I can see, is very similar to what you want (except that Dublin/Cork teams wouldn't be allowed)

I'll ask you again - what's your proposed league structure so we can see if it constitutes a pyramid or not. Because when you say "I WANT A PYRAMID" and then describe something the complete opposite, it reminds me an awful lot of Donald Trump saying "WE WON THIS ELECTION", and then telling people they're making stuff up when they challenge him on what he's saying.

[EatYerGreens]

What am I making up?

If you want to actually pick a point and argue it, I'm happy to do that. But you keep on posting stuff that's demonstrably untrue and then whining when you're called up on it, all without actually saying anything to counter my points.

Oh, and UCD were promoted from 8th in the LSL to the LoI B, and from 8th in the LoI B to the LoI. That's daft, and an inherent weakness in the current structure. Which, as far as I can see, is very similar to what you want (except that Dublin/Cork teams wouldn't be allowed)

I'll ask you again - what's your proposed league structure so we can see if it constitutes a pyramid or not. Because when you say "I WANT A PYRAMID" and then describe something the complete opposite, it reminds me an awful lot of Donald Trump saying "WE WON THIS ELECTION", and then telling people they're making stuff up when they challenge him on what he's saying.

Lots of examples. Like where you claimed I said Athlone and Wexford shouldn't be relegated.

You repeatedly twist, change and distort what people say to try to boost your own arguments. So it's pointless trying to debate with you.

And I've spelled out really clearly how an augmented pyramid should work - so more bullcrap from you to say I either haven't, or that it's the complete opposite of a pyramid. It's exactly the same as a pyramid - with promotion up and down on the pitch. The only difference is you seek to encourage and enable clubs in areas where the game arguably needs strengthening to be able to compete. If they then can't on the pitch, then so be it. Because that's how a pyramid works (d'uh).

Like I said- I'm done now. Pointless trying to debate with someone who can't read what's written in front of them without distorting it.

[nigel-harps1954]

If it's of any help, I haven't really got a clue what you're trying to propose either..

[pineapple stu]

It's really hard to see what you mean by this -

Then let's look at who the weakest teams in the LOI are at the moment. It's basically Wexford and Athlone by some distance.

So if we had a Darwinian pyramid system in place right now, we'd more than likely be taking an intermediate team from an area which already HAS an LOI team and swapping out a provincial team instead. And we'd probably do it repeatedly over time - thereby concentrating the League into an even smaller geographical spread. With no guarantee that the likes of Athlone or Wexford would make it back up again any time soon (or even stay in football, in the case of Wexford).

- other than the suggestion that it would be a bad thing for Athlone/Wexford to be relegated and replaced by a Dublin/Cork side because there's "No guarantee that they'd make it up again any time soon". Hence my point that you're happy to keep two awful teams in the league purely on geographical grounds. Nothing made up.

(You, meanwhile, have made up that my suggestion has been tried for the past 100 years, that no league is as bad for the LoI at losing clubs, that football is smaller than rugby here, that I'm saying my solution is a silver bullet...)

I'll ask you for a fourth time - what is your actual pyramid structure? As in, how do the divisions feed into each other in your mind? Because no matter how many times you say you've described it, you haven't. You have said you want to target clubs based on population area, support those at the expense of others, give them a target to meet some deadlines and then they join the league on x date regardless of how they're doing on the pitch. That's not a pyramid.

[EatYerGreens]

It's really hard to see what you mean by this -

- other than the suggestion that it would be a bad thing for Athlone/Wexford to be relegated and replaced by a Dublin/Cork side because there's "No guarantee that they'd make it up again any time soon". Hence my point that you're happy to keep two awful teams in the league purely on geographical grounds. Nothing made up.



You'll probably find that 99.9% of the people on here would consider it a bad thing if two provincial clubs were replaced in the LOI by yet another 2 Dublin clubs. But that doesn't mean they think provincial clubs should be immune from relegation :rolleyes:

Utterly pointless trying to debate against these sort of tactics. Just pointless.

[pineapple stu]

I don't agree. For starters, there aren't 1000 people on here. And anyway, while I too would like to see a better regional spread of teams, I can see that there are many teams who would strengthen the league compared to Wexford and Athlone in their current format, and I can see that it's really hard for Athlone and Wexford to attract new fans while losing 8-0 or 11-0 as often as they do.

Anyway, for the fifth time, can you outline your pyramid structure from top to bottom? For Nigel, even if you're too ignorant to do it for me.

Or are you going to ignore everything again and mutter about my debating "tactics" while refusing point-blank to engage in debate yourself?

[Neish]

“Was removed quickly”

Not surprised. It is Derry. Whilst if Mussolini or Idi Amin promised enough free stuff Donegal people would vote for them.

yet again a posting of yours is so full of senseless drivel, I have no idea what you're getting at

[Real ale Madrid]

I may just have been beaten on lengthy posts by EYG:mad:

He's been eating his greens!

[Nesta99]

He's been eating his greens!

Well how can ye have any pudding if ye don't eat the meat!

[Charlie Darwin]

leaving it just to Darwinism won't work

Feel free to present evidence which shows that it isn't likely a Darwinian pyramid will just shrink the reach and geographical spread of LOI football if you have it. Thanks.
What the hell did I do to you?

[EalingGreen]

If it's of any help, I haven't really got a clue what you're trying to propose either..I'm with Stu, too.

EYG's reasoning really doesn't stand up.

Like his "pyramid".

https://yoast.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=1012,height=530,dpr=2,fit=contain,f=auto,one rror=redirect/app/uploads/2018/09/the_inverted_pyramid_FI.png

[GUFCghost]

The crux of this is licensing. If im not wrong, every LOI or at-least PD team should have a 1,500 seat stadium. Obviously that's not being enforced, but if it was, it would note a serious gap between senior and intermediate football. A gated pyramid could very easily work in which relegation/promotion is dependant on the up coming club having the proper facilities. This would eliminate your Salthil/Mervue scenarios.

We have don't have the culture needed for a pyramid. Junior and Intermediate clubs don't strive for promotion. Many LOI clubs were founded with the idea that they'd represent the largest number of people possible (e.g Galway United & Cork City) and Irish sports fans in general are used to supporting provinces & counties which are essentially franchises.

Why don't intermediate clubs strive for promotion? Is it because the LOI is a money pit, or because, as I said earlier in this post, Irish sport just doesn't have a pyramid culture?

[pineapple stu]

Why don't intermediate clubs strive for promotion? Is it because the LOI is a money pit, or because, as I said earlier in this post, Irish sport just doesn't have a pyramid culture?
Probably a bit of both.

The lower leagues are entrenched in being their own little ponds at this stage. For most clubs it means a lot to be LSL champions or FAI Intermediate champions. Certainly disproportionately so compared to, for example, winning the Conference in England. That's been allowed develop, I'd imagine, by decades of LSL tradition, and LoI isolation. And that's the case even though most of the LSL teams are actually relatively new. I'm charting UCD's LSL history at the moment (we left in 1970) and practically none of the teams from the 69/70 season are still there (at the top level anyway).

But why would you risk everything to jump up to the First Division anyway? How many clubs have been lost because of it? And that's before you look at the Tralee case, which of course also indicates that once you jump up, you're stuck - there is easy no safety net of a return to LSL.

The whole thing is daft.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd imagine most intermediate teams would be happy to go up to the league as long as they were guaranteed they wouldn't suffer a penalty for leaving the league like St Francis or whoever else have. Proper promotion and relegation would remove that penalty, and would allow more forward-thinking clubs the time and space to make long-term plans without having to take the risk or leaving their intermediate league altogether.

[sbgawa]

From what i hear St Kevins will be coming in next year joining St Francis, Cabinteely and St Josephs in the first division

2022 could have
St Josephs , St Francis, Cabinteely, Shels , UCD, Shamrock Rovers B in the first division

Shamrock Rovers , Bohemians, St Pats in the Premier Division,

9 Dublin teams , so much for regionalisation

[EalingGreen]

From what i hear St Kevins will be coming in next year joining St Francis, Cabinteely and St Josephs in the first division

2022 could have
St Josephs , St Francis, Cabinteely, Shels , UCD, Shamrock Rovers B in the first division

Shamrock Rovers , Bohemians, St Pats in the Premier Division,

9 Dublin teams , so much for regionalisation

The population of Argentina is 45m, with the population of Buenos Aires (city) being just under 3m and that of the overall Buenos Aires (province) being 13 million.

Yet despite there being 20-odd cities outside of BA Province with a population of 150k+, as of 2019, the 24 team Primera Division had 6 teams from BA City and another 9 from BA Province:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_clubs_in_Argentina

All that said, that is probably where the similarities between the two leagues start and finish. :cool:

[nigel-harps1954]

I couldn't really give a crap where a team comes from as long as they're financially capable and not just in it to boost their underage academy profiles.

[sbgawa]

I agree with you Nigel and thats where we are headed with st francis, st josephs, st kevins and Cabo.
I suppose the fai probably are glad of anyone at this point but it just fills spots and provides oposition.
No real hope of developing a fan base.

[holidaysong]

I assume St. Kevin's and St. Joseph's would be a reaction to the new u18 age barrier to players going to the UK in order to allow their best 16 and 17 year olds to play league football?

It would seem like too much of a coincidence otherwise.

[sbgawa]

St Josephs are in division 1 already, they took over Bray when they were in their North Korea stage.
St Josephs were previously nominally Brays under 13 , 15 , 17 set up and when it looked like Bray might fold they took over as they would have lost access to the under age National set up.
Local politics was important as if Joeys didnt have access to the under age National leagues their best players would move to Cabinteely (whos base in Kilbogget park is less than a mile from Joeys in Sallynoggin
The only reason they stepped in to stop Bray folding was to maintain their access to the National underage set up.
Ironically the brexit situation now makes that even better of a move

St Kevins (rumour only to be clear) are looking at ditching Bohs and going on their own into first division as they are doing all the work at underage anyway, the brexit rule just makes it more obvious a path so they can keep all the transfer fees at 18..
Just cant see St Kevins carrying on pretending to be Bohemians underage setup when you have several other junior clubs doing their own thing. They played the first year of the under 13 season on their own before all the loi clubs told the FAI to throw them out as they didnt have a senior LOI team, then they nominated Bohs as their "partner" and play under that banner. To give you an idea of their comitment they play home games in a bohs kit and a kevins crest and away matchs in their own kit.
St Francis are a decent set up but will only ever be a junior club at heart

[nigel-harps1954]

From what i hear St Kevins will be coming in next year joining St Francis, Cabinteely and St Josephs in the first division

2022 could have
St Josephs , St Francis, Cabinteely, Shels , UCD, Shamrock Rovers B in the first division

Shamrock Rovers , Bohemians, St Pats in the Premier Division,

9 Dublin teams , so much for regionalisation


I would guess that all of this is untrue now.

St Francis announced today that they have been turned down by the FAI.



ClUB STATEMENT

St. Francis Football Club has this morning been informed by the Football Association of Ireland (FAI) that the club will not be invited to enter the licensing process to participate in the League of Ireland First Division for the 2021 season.

St Francis Football Club has over the last number of years made significant strides to provide an environment to develop our members socially, physically and mentally. We will continue to carry out our development plan to deliver the best facilities and supports for our members in the country. As part of that plan, we have recently completed the building of our state of the art 180sqm fitness gym to cater for motor skills programmes, strength and conditioning programmes and nutrition programmes for our members. This is following the completion of our top quality FIFA approved 3G playing surface in 2019.

St Francis FC is an ambitious club with more development programmes and facility upgrades planned for 2021 and beyond. We will be adding to our Community, Schoolboy and League of Ireland pathways with an Education pathway for members in the coming weeks and months and we look forward to updating you on our progress. While ambitious the club will continue to build and grow in a manner that is both financially prudent and sustainable for the long term benefit of our members.

We would like to place on record our thanks to the FAI in their engagement throughout the application process and we will continue to engage with the FAI to help St Francis FC return to the League of Ireland fold.

St Francis FC Committee.

[nigel-harps1954]

1336705469071699970

I can never really be sure this is a genuine account...but, there ya go.

Seemingly playing as Dublin County FC out of Morton Stadium.

[sbgawa]

Positive sign alright that the FAI are not just taking all-comers
St Francis obviously arent giving up from their statement, would be interesting to see on what basis they were turned down by the FAI as their facilities are better than Cabos.

[Longfordian]

Sorry missed post above

[ltfc_2004]

Irish Sea FC sounds like some sort of foot.ie prankster challenge ! set up a club and random website that looks likes its from 2000 !

[joey B]

2 Limerick teams given the green light?, hmmmm...

[nigel-harps1954]

This is really weird.

http://dublincountyfc.com/

[pineapple stu]

It looks like a club set up just to try pimp players off to the bigger leagues.

And then you see Aaron Callaghan listed as "Director of Playing Personnel"

No idea what to make of all this, but all my LoI cynicism is screaming out loud inside

[Real ale Madrid]

1336705469071699970

I can never really be sure this is a genuine account...but, there ya go.

Seemingly playing as Dublin County FC out of Morton Stadium.

When they were on about splitting up Dublin County I'm not sure they had a split to a different sport in mind.

[Mr A]

The weird Ukraine references are.. well, weird.

http://dublincountyfc.com/camps/

[Mr A]

Oh right: http://pfcshipbuilders.com/

[pineapple stu]

And they got invited to apply while St Francis didn't.

Makes you wonder.

[Dr. football]

May be going off original topic by why not let the existing teams that mentioned play in the underage structures? Will give more players a chance to play at a bigger structure. Might be good way to bridge the gap from intermediate to senior of clubs what to try switch? Seems like it’s already happening in Dublin.

[ForzaForth]

Wexford FC now beginning to make player announcements for 2021 which suggests that they're confident of getting the Division 1 licence.

Wexford FC re-sign local striker Kieran Murphy (https://wexfordfc.ie/latest-news/1030-wexford-fc-re-sign-local-striker-kieran-murphy)