B Teams

[pineapple stu]

How many of those countries have football as their fourth most popular spectator sport domestically though ?
Again, not a unique situation. Look at Finland and Slovakia with professional ice-hockey leagues, Lithuania with a professional basketball league, rugby being bigger in Wales than it is here, and so on.

We need to stop thinking we're so unique, when we're just not.


We tried a pyramid before, and it gave us 3 teams in Galway city. We've also tried de-facto pyramids before - which was the multiple times we've let in the best teams from the Leinster Senior League (e.g. St James's Gate, St Francis) whenever we needed to fill a gap.
Neither of those are pyramids. Again, I'll point you to the example of Tralee Dynamoes having to withdraw from their own league, wait half a year for a match, and then when the A League folded and their LoI application was denied, they had to wait half a year for a match again before going back to the foot of the Kerry pyramid and fight their way back up. Look at Cabo getting parachuted in with no time to build a competitive team and flopping badly in their (potentially promising, based on initial crowds) debut season? Promotion gives a club momentum and something to build on.

Why would any team want to join the LoI if that's the risk they're taking? But that's what you're trying to implement in your suggestion.



We could well have St Francis from the LSL joining just one tier below a team that is in the Europa League.
So what?

Should they not be promoted to a division where they won't be playing the European teams until they're good enough to compete with those teams that they won't be playing against? Should they be like Bart Simpson in remedial class, going slower than everyone else and hoping to catch up?

Are Athlone, Wexford and Rovers II holding up Rovers, Bohs and Dundalk one division higher?

I actually can't fathom what your point is here.

[Bunny Kelly]

If we managed to squeeze out enough teams for a third tier could it help support grow with more competitive games for the smaller teams, fighting for promotion or relegation? Obviously the bottom of the third tier may struggle for support but it could be a more competitive division as you won't have sides with much more financial muscle coming down from the Premier Division.

Also could we allow these sides go back to Saturday/Sunday afternoon games if they wish? Evening games are great for adults but to grow as a family club you need to be able to bring kids, I started going out going to Kilkenny games as a 7/8 year old on Sunday afternoons & it sucked me in for the next 15+ years, the argument that you cant compete with GAA but looking at the crowds it is worth trying for some clubs

[pineapple stu]

If we managed to squeeze out enough teams for a third tier could it help support grow with more competitive games for the smaller teams, fighting for promotion or relegation?
If it didn't work for the A Championship, why would it work now?

I think the costs of a national third tier - with underage structure and the glittering prize of promotion to the joys of the First Division - are too much for it to ever work. I'd much rather see a regionalised First Division than a third tier tbh

[Bunny Kelly]

If it didn't work for the A Championship, why would it work now?

I think the costs of a national third tier - with underage structure and the glittering prize of promotion to the joys of the First Division - are too much for it to ever work. I'd much rather see a regionalised First Division than a third tier tbh

Was the A championship ever given enough time? Regionalising definitely a fair option & will help keep costs down for smaller clubs, whatever way you do it I think the more clubs in the system the better

[EatYerGreens]

Was the A championship ever given enough time?

It felt like as soon as it delivered the LOI with 3 clubs in Galway city it was binned

[pineapple stu]

Was the A championship ever given enough time? Regionalising definitely a fair option & will help keep costs down for smaller clubs, whatever way you do it I think the more clubs in the system the better
Arguably a fair point. I agree with you the more clubs the better; I just think expanding the FD and regionalising if you get to sufficient numbers would be the better way.

But while you have the Tralee A Championship experience, then you won't get much in the way of new clubs. That's the real issue here. The complete disconnect between LoI and the rest.

[EatYerGreens]

I can't comment on Iceland, Luxembourg, Malta, Georgia, Wales (as per P.Stu), but you already have a directly comparable example, right on your doorstep. And while Hurling is no big deal in NI, our population is less than half of yours, not so wealthy, with the same one big city dominating (not Bangor, btw) and the same "pull" from across the Irish Sea.
Yet we have now built a very healthy pyramid, with the various divisions reasonably competitive within themselves and the member clubs pretty stable.

Or look a little further to Scotland, which has only a slightly bigger population, and if it doesn't have Gaelic games, or much rugby, does have two giant clubs which dominate the domestic scene to a huge extent, all in a country which is much more spread out geographically.
Yet they manage to operate a pyramid with a 4 x division senior league, above the Highland and Lowland Leagues (fifth tier), plus another 8 Divisions down to tiers six and seven.

Both countries have worked very hard in recent years to develop and refine their respective systems, with reasonable success in the main, so it can be done.

NI and Scotland are not directly comparable to the LOI. Football is the biggest sport in both of those countries. It is Scotland's national sport, and if NI had bothered to pick one it would have gone for football too. Both places have a very long tradition in football, which very few places in ROI outside of Dublin have (and even in Dublin it's a chequered picture). The strongest part of the island of Ireland for football has always been the north-east, hands down. And no accident that the game was brought to there from Scotland. You can't hold up a place where football is at its strongest and claim there's no difference between it and places where the game is clearly not as strong.

I'm not sure I'd describe the NI football pyramid as healthy btw, as it's basically a dead zone below the top tier when it comes to crowds. It is, however, stable in terms of both finances and membership - which is an important strength of the northern system vs the south. But it was that way long before the pyramid was introduced there. So it's not the pyramid that is making it a more stable structure. And my argument is that a pyramid on its own would actually INCREASE instability in the LOI, by adding in new clubs continually who just aren't in a position to compete.

What is very telling in NI football is its demographics. Only about 10-15% of the clubs in the 3 divisions at the top of the NI pyramid are from areas which would be considered to have a majority nationalist background (and one or two more which would be evenly balanced/neutral) The rest are in areas which are very strongly unionist - Coleraine, Ballymena, Larne, Carrick, Ballyclare, Loughhall, Dundela, Ballinamallard, Portadown, Ards, Bangor, Knockbreda, Banbridge, Tobermore, Limavady, Portstewart. I could go on, but it's clear that the vast majority of teams in the Northern pyramid system are from very unionist-dominated areas. Which basically makes one of my key points for me - about the impact that football being only the 4th most popular spectator sport in the south has. Unionists turn their backs on the GAA (no breaking news there), so it's not a competitor in large swathes of the north. But in the places where GAA is strong, Irish League club football is weak or non-existent. So the north proves the point re the impact football in the south faces from having a uniquely high number of more popular spectator sports. And as someone who wants football to prosper, it is deeply worrying how polarised the senior game is in the north. Especially when you consider that NI itself is at demographic parity, and about to have a catholic/nationalist majority population. The Irish league is becoming a bit of a minority entity in terms of participants and supporters, which is in no-ones interests. I wouldn't call any of that healthy in such a divided place. And I don't see the pyramid system there changing it either.


The big successes were Cork - which should never not have had a top level club (imo) - and Derry, which only came about by happenstance. And while Bray and Longford have done ok (tbf), they've hardly pulled up any trees, while the others all failed (as did later pop-up clubs like Dublin City etc). And as you say, that was over a third of a century ago.

You've ignored Cobh. They never 'failed'. They were in the LOI for 24yrs, were relegated from the Premier Division when it was reduced in size in 2009, dropped out for a few years to sort themselves financially. and then came back again and have been in the LOI ever since. Ironically they had to wait a few extra years to do so because they lost a play-off against Salthill Devon in the period when the LOI did have a 3-tier pyramid. That's Salthill Devin btw - who joined the LOI in the short window when it had a 3-tier pyramid (losing the promotion play-off but getting in anyway when Kildare dropped out) ; lasted 3 seasons where they finished bottom of the FD each time, and then dropped out of the LOI. In contrast with Cobh, who have been happily back in the league since 2013 (?) without needing the pyramid for that. The irony of arguing that a pyramid system would be more stable or better in the face of the contrasting and interlinked fortunes of those 2 clubs.

Cork should indeed never have not had a top level club in the LOI. In the same way that Derry should never not have had a top level club in the IL (which it doesn't currently btw).


I'm genuinely not out to have a pop, but if there are clubs out there with potential etfc, why do they need to be approached by the FAI? Why aren't they banging on the door at Abbotstown to find out what they must do to get into the First Division etc? It's tempting to think that if they have to be asked, then maybe they don't posess the necessary wherewithal in the first place.

This has been discussed ad infinitum on here previously. The LOI is a financial killing zone for intermediate clubs. There is quite a step up in terms of talent and finances required to be genuinely competitive. And a lot of clubs just don't see the benefit of distracting themselves from their core stuff that they do currently to join a league where they'll struggle to make much progress and it'll just end up bleeding them dry of money. The FAI need to make it less financially suicidal if it wants more intermediate clubs with real potential to aspire to be new entrants. And then there's the issue with Tralee Dynamoes, who were essentially punished for joining the 3rd tier/Championship level in the LOI when they had to go back to the Kerry system again at a lower level. So why would any club want to take the organisational, financial and footballing risks involved ? . It's telling when you look at the 4 applicants the LOI received this month. One is basically a replacement for the Limerick that dropped out last year ; one is trying to usurp the existing Wexford club ; One lasted only 5 seasons in the LOI previously, and appears to be motivated at least in-part by a desire to not be carved out of the academy system and enforced linkages between LOI clubs and the junior system ; and the fourth seems a bit bonkers, and has no players or stadium. It's a rather dysfunctional pool of suitors by any objective analysis.

[EatYerGreens]

Again, not a unique situation. Look at Finland and Slovakia with professional ice-hockey leagues, Lithuania with a professional basketball league, rugby being bigger in Wales than it is here, and so on.

We need to stop thinking we're so unique, when we're just not.

Are you really providing as evidence that Ireland isn't unique in Europe for having football as its 4th most popular domestic spectator sport, the presence of a few countries where football is the 2nd most popular ? Just have a think for a second there whether that comparison stacks up. Unless you can show me where else in Europe has football equally as low down its pecking order for spectators (and 2nd doesn't do it) then the point is made. Ireland IS exceptional in Europe. Because there is nowhere else that's the same.


Neither of those are pyramids. Again, I'll point you to the example of Tralee Dynamoes having to withdraw from their own league, wait half a year for a match, and then when the A League folded and their LoI application was denied, they had to wait half a year for a match again before going back to the foot of the Kerry pyramid and fight their way back up. Look at Cabo getting parachuted in with no time to build a competitive team and flopping badly in their (potentially promising, based on initial crowds) debut season? Promotion gives a club momentum and something to build on.

Tralee Dynamoes is a good example of how ill thought out the system was when the Championship/A League was introduced by the FAI. But I'm not convinced it's as strong as you're suggesting re pyarmids. Bury FC were kicked out of the Football League, and their 'replacement'/continuity club had to go way down the pyramid looking for somewhere to join (but crucially didn't have to go to the bottom of the pyramid). The Kerry system could have chosen to let Tralee back in at a higher level - the same as the LSL usually does when Dublin clubs drop out of the LOI, without making them go all the way to the bottom of the system there. Because there is choice at play here. Kerry football basically chose to teach Tralee a lesson.


Why would any team want to join the LoI if that's the risk they're taking? But that's what you're trying to implement in your suggestion.

Let's start with what we hopefully all agree on : That the current system isn't working, and hasn't worked for the last century. There is therefore a need for a new way of doing things.

Your solution is to view a deep pyramid as a silver bullet. That it on its own will do the job, and nothing else is required. A theological belief in essence.

I want to see a pyramid, but am stating that having clubs entering the bear pit of the LOI purely because they're good at an Intermediate level has failed numerous times across the last century. Whether they end up in the LOI by promotion from the level below, by being picked out of a hat, by cupping John Delaney's balls, by being the last team standing etc etc. History has shown time and again that no matter how they end up there, putting Intermediate clubs into the LOI wrestling ring usually ends up with them getting hurt and/or ejected.

Hence I'm suggesting that we try something different. Something that hasn't been done at any point over the last century when the other approaches have largely all failed. And something which common sense suggests should have a decent chance of success. And that is to appreciate the difficult circumstances that domestic football faces in many parts of Ireland (4th most popular etc) ; identify clubs which currently or potentially have the ingredients that would suggest a fighting chance of success in the LOI (relatively large catchment area with a good footballing tradition, decent facilities, strong footballing pedigree etc) ; and work with them to get them into a fighting fit shape. So that not only are they in a better position to get promoted up the pyramid when one hopefully gets introduced, but they're also less likely to have to tap out again quickly when they do enter the LOI wrestling ring.

Is that really such a bad idea ?

[pineapple stu]

Are you really providing as evidence that Ireland isn't unique in Europe for having football as its 4th most popular domestic spectator sport, the presence of a few countries where football is the 2nd most popular ? Just have a think for a second there whether that comparison stacks up. Unless you can show me where else in Europe has football equally as low down its pecking order for spectators (and 2nd doesn't do it) then the point is made. Ireland IS exceptional in Europe. Because there is nowhere else that's the same.
Well I've lots of issues with this. Leinster, Munster and Connacht drew in 230k between them for the Pro 14 in 2019/20. Nigel's attendance stats here (https://foot.ie/threads/240739-Attendances-2019/page54) show 470k at the LoI in 2020. That difference would hardly be made up by the AIL.

In any event, viewing figures for football are way above the other sports. Yes, it's mostly either Premier League, Champions League or the national team, but the figures would still exceed most other sporting events except probably the All-Ireland final. Football's not unpopular in Ireland. The LoI is. That then makes it quite comparable to other countries.

And anyway, 2nd or 4th most popular doesn't really matter. "Not number 1" is the main point - let's allow that non-LoI spectator figures don't count - and anything after that is semantics really.

So as I say, lots of issues with that paragraph.


Tralee Dynamoes is a good example of how ill thought out the system was when the Championship/A League was introduced by the FAI. But I'm not convinced it's as strong as you're suggesting re pyarmids. Bury FC were kicked out of the Football League, and their 'replacement'/continuity club had to go way down the pyramid looking for somewhere to join (but crucially didn't have to go to the bottom of the pyramid).
Bury went bankrupt and reformed. That's not remotely comparable. What Tralee were looking to do was be relegated one tier. That happens in lots of leagues - but it's not an option here.


Your solution is to view a deep pyramid as a silver bullet. That it on its own will do the job, and nothing else is required. A theological belief in essence.
Where have I said that?

I believe it's the best system. That doesn't mean that it's a silver bullet, but if it's the best system - and I've given lots of reasons - then it's the best system.

You can't say that "having clubs entering the bear pit of the LOI purely because they're good at an Intermediate level has failed numerous times across the last century." because it has never happened in a proper fashion - that is, allowing clubs build up sustainably at a lower level and aspire to a higher level, and use natural momentum to grow the club.

What you're suggesting but it's more akin to, say, Kildare County. Let's be honest - what would have happened differently in Kildare under your suggestion?

[pineapple stu]

Actually, I see I've included a covid season for the eggs there. 2018/19, Leinster, Munster and Connacht had 400k between them at games. Comparable to the LoI, and that's of course in large part because the structure allows those three keep their international players. Put the two leagues on a comparable footing and that difference wouldn't exist.

There's other factors too of course - away fans from other countries should be discounted, fewer games in rugby (but would they keep up the interest over a longer season?), I've not included play-offs or European ties, etc. But bottom line here - I don't think it's at all correct to say football is intrinsically behind rugby here in terms of interest.

[nigel-harps1954]

For what it's worth, I think the First Division should stay as it is, and if another tier was introduced, that would be regionalised, second division north/south, allowing B teams to enter that, and not any higher than that.

The biggest problem, as Stu alluded to, is that teams don't want to risk the jump into the LOI, failing, and having to start at the bottom of their regional leagues again. There needs to be a bit of work done with various junior/intermediate leagues to allow the provision of teams stepping up to LOI level, not being penalised for being 'relegated' back again.

Football across all levels in Ireland is so stupidly disconnected, that should be a higher priority for the FAI right now than any LOI problems. Connecting up the footballing jigsaw from top to bottom should be absolute priority now.

[EatYerGreens]

The biggest problem, as Stu alluded to, is that teams don't want to risk the jump into the LOI, failing, and having to start at the bottom of their regional leagues again.

Whilst I agree with the broad sentiment there, it's important to acknowledge that this is a choice, not a necessity. The Leinster Senior League has not forced ex-LOI clubs like St James's Gate and St Francis to re-join it at the bottom, for example. I doubt it would do so with Cabinteely if (and in my view, when) they drop out of the LOI either. Whatever the clubs in the league - or more realistically, the few officers who run the league - decide should happen is what happens. There is no universal rule on this.

[sbgawa]

The FAI were a disgrace allowing that to happen to Tralee Dynamos, obviously one of JD's allies who he didnt want to crack down on at the time and allowed Tralee to suffer.
Hopefully the new FAI wouldnt allow that **** to happen.

[EalingGreen]

NI and Scotland are not directly comparable to the LOI. Football is the biggest sport in both of those countries. It is Scotland's national sport, and if NI had bothered to pick one it would have gone for football too. Both places have a very long tradition in football, which very few places in ROI outside of Dublin have (and even in Dublin it's a chequered picture). The strongest part of the island of Ireland for football has always been the north-east, hands down. And no accident that the game was brought to there from Scotland. You can't hold up a place where football is at its strongest and claim there's no difference between it and places where the game is clearly not as strong.

You are conflating 3 separate, if related, factors here.
1st is Attendances, where football may lag behind the other codes (Though Hurling? Club rugby?);
But the 2nd is Participation where, when you count male and female and all age groups, it most definitely isn't 4th;
And 3rd is Interest, where huge numbers follow the game (Celtic, Man U etc); meaning even if it doesn't transfer to LOI, should still offer potential for the LOI to grow, if ever it got properly organised.

And re Attendances, the situation is different from it was, say, 30/40 years ago, when almost all club revenues came from the turnstiles. Now you have Commercial, Sponsorship, Advertising and TV/Media etc, plus European Prize money (also the International game). And I daresay the Govt has far more money for football, incl LOI, than it did in years past.



I'm not sure I'd describe the NI football pyramid as healthy btw, as it's basically a dead zone below the top tier when it comes to crowds. It is, however, stable in terms of both finances and membership - which is an important strength of the northern system vs the south. But it was that way long before the pyramid was introduced there. So it's not the pyramid that is making it a more stable structure. And my argument is that a pyramid on its own would actually INCREASE instability in the LOI, by adding in new clubs continually who just aren't in a position to compete.

Again, you fixate on crowds, as though that is the only factor, and one which can never be improved.
Fact is, it is perfectly possible for p-t clubs with modest crowds to participate & contribute even in the company of bigger, better-supported f-t clubs in the same league. (Re contribution, see my earlier eg of Institute FC, who have recently produced Gibson, McClean and McEneff for ROI)

And as for new clubs increasing instability in the LOI, well yes, if they're the wrong clubs, admitted for the wrong reasons. But a carefully introduced pyramid should reduce that fear, not worsen it, since clubs should have to prove themselves at the lower level before being admitted to the next level.




What is very telling in NI football is its demographics. Only about 10-15% of the clubs in the 3 divisions at the top of the NI pyramid are from areas which would be considered to have a majority nationalist background (and one or two more which would be evenly balanced/neutral) The rest are in areas which are very strongly unionist - Coleraine, Ballymena, Larne, Carrick, Ballyclare, Loughhall, Dundela, Ballinamallard, Portadown, Ards, Bangor, Knockbreda, Banbridge, Tobermore, Limavady, Portstewart. I could go on, but it's clear that the vast majority of teams in the Northern pyramid system are from very unionist-dominated areas. Which basically makes one of my key points for me - about the impact that football being only the 4th most popular spectator sport in the south has. Unionists turn their backs on the GAA (no breaking news there), so it's not a competitor in large swathes of the north. But in the places where GAA is strong, Irish League club football is weak or non-existent. So the north proves the point re the impact football in the south faces from having a uniquely high number of more popular spectator sports. And as someone who wants football to prosper, it is deeply worrying how polarised the senior game is in the north. Especially when you consider that NI itself is at demographic parity, and about to have a catholic/nationalist majority population. The Irish league is becoming a bit of a minority entity in terms of participants and supporters, which is in no-ones interests. I wouldn't call any of that healthy in such a divided place. And I don't see the pyramid system there changing it either.

There is so much about that which is simplistic, misguided, outdated or plain wrong that I barely know where to start!

Fortunately I needn't even try, since it is also pretty much irrelevant to the situation in ROI, where demographics are entirely different. That is, you don't get people eg cleaving to GAA and shunning Soccer on the basis that the latter is a "Protestant sport in Protestant areas" (to use a crude stereotype).



You've ignored Cobh. They never 'failed'. They were in the LOI for 24yrs, were relegated from the Premier Division when it was reduced in size in 2009, dropped out for a few years to sort themselves financially. and then came back again and have been in the LOI ever since. Ironically they had to wait a few extra years to do so because they lost a play-off against Salthill Devon in the period when the LOI did have a 3-tier pyramid. That's Salthill Devin btw - who joined the LOI in the short window when it had a 3-tier pyramid (losing the promotion play-off but getting in anyway when Kildare dropped out) ; lasted 3 seasons where they finished bottom of the FD each time, and then dropped out of the LOI.

OK, I forgot Cobh. But if anything, they prove my point, not yours, which is that if a small, provincial club is properly managed, it can survive in senior football in ROI. (Same with eg Sligo Rvrs or Finn Harps).
Meaning that if they can do so, why cannot others, even if it takes time to nurture and introduce them? After all, we've seen the same in NI with eg Dungannon, Carrick, Ballinamallard and Warrenpoint.



Cork should indeed never have not had a top level club in the LOI. In the same way that Derry should never not have had a top level club in the IL (which it doesn't currently btw).

And your point is, Caller?



This has been discussed ad infinitum on here previously. The LOI is a financial killing zone for intermediate clubs. There is quite a step up in terms of talent and finances required to be genuinely competitive. And a lot of clubs just don't see the benefit of distracting themselves from their core stuff that they do currently to join a league where they'll struggle to make much progress and it'll just end up bleeding them dry of money. The FAI need to make it less financially suicidal if it wants more intermediate clubs with real potential to aspire to be new entrants. And then there's the issue with Tralee Dynamoes, who were essentially punished for joining the 3rd tier/Championship level in the LOI when they had to go back to the Kerry system again at a lower level. So why would any club want to take the organisational, financial and footballing risks involved ? . It's telling when you look at the 4 applicants the LOI received this month. One is basically a replacement for the Limerick that dropped out last year ; one is trying to usurp the existing Wexford club ; One lasted only 5 seasons in the LOI previously, and appears to be motivated at least in-part by a desire to not be carved out of the academy system and enforced linkages between LOI clubs and the junior system ; and the fourth seems a bit bonkers, and has no players or stadium. It's a rather dysfunctional pool of suitors by any objective analysis.
No-one is discounting the problems faced by the set-up in ROI (and you forgot the summer/winter split too, btw).

But looking at it from a Northern pov, there is no good reason why the ROI couldn't develop a thriving pyramid which would benefit the overall game. For when outlining the historic strengths and advantagesof the game in the North East etc, you imply that it is basically the same, monolithic set-up which has always existed.

Whereas, there has been progress, if at times at a glacial pace, in modifying and updating the system down the years. For example, after the foundation of the IL in 1890, they then introduced an Intermediate League (the 1920's?), followed by a major reform with the introduction of the (senior) "B" Division. This subsequently split into two, divided between independent clubs and a Reserves League.

There were further modifications in succeeding decades, until in the mid-90's the top division was split into two divisions. In 2003, the IFA took over the running of it, the senior league reverted to one enlarged division for a period, albeit with promotion/relegation to the revamped Intermediate set-up, before reorganising again, admitting some new teams and developing the pyramid further down to Internediate and Junior level, a process which continues to this day.

All this was achieved against the backdrop of two World Wars; the loss successively of the Dublin clubs, Belfast Celtic and DCFC; 30 years of The Troubles; growing interest/accessibility in GB football & the huge demographic changes you outlined.

Meantime, ROI was (thankfully) spared this, while seeing big population/economic growth.

All of which suggests to me that it shouldn't be inherently impossible to introduce a proper pyramid in ROI, as seen in all other of UEFA's 55 Members.

Rather it reflects a lack of vision, leadership, ambition and basic organisation over the prolonged period needed to implement it.

[pineapple stu]

I think just to look at this in more detail - I'm not sure how much help any of it would really be in practical terms.


1) Conduct an analysis of locations around the country which don't currently have an LOI team, but on-paper would have a chance of making one last. Looking at population, strength of the game locally vs other sports, distance form existing LOI teams etc. (e.g. Navan, Tralee, Mullingar, Castlebar, Tullamore ?)
Fine - let's go retrospective with it and say Kildare and Wexford are identified as gaps in the market.


2) Look at what existing junior or intermediate clubs in that area could have the potential to take the step up over time. i.e. are well-run, ambitious, have decent facilities - or at least have some of those qualities.
OK - Newbridge Town and Wexford Youths.


3) Approach those clubs directly, say that the FAI wants the League to expand to X teams by 2025 and Y teams by 2030, and ask would they be interested in being one of a number of 'contender/candidate clubs' for that. That's not a commitment from either those clubs or the FAI that they WILL join the LOI btw. Just a commitment that they'll go on a journey together to improve themselves so they're in a position where they could potentially join in the future
95% of clubs will say "Fúck off ourrada." They're happy being big fish in small ponds. They don't want to take the financial risk. Whatever the reason - that's the answer most clubs will give. You've not done anything to address that, and that's an initial key weakness imo.

But let's say Kildare and Wexford are interested.


4) For those who are interested - develop a clear strategy for what they are currently good at and less good, and what they need to do to get themselves ready for the senior game in either 5 or 10 years time. FAI funding would help with the facilities aspect, but the clubs would also be expected to raise their own money to show they can become sustainable. They should also be helped on youth academies, revenue-generation, etc etc
This is time wasted imo. Revenue generation on the promise of being considered for FD admission in 5-10 years' time is a tough sell. If the club had any decent players, they won't hang around for 5-10 years either. Straight off, you're hamstringing the club. And of course, if you do parachute them in in 5-10 years' time, there's no guarantee they'll be strong enough on the pitch to compete - which is what we've seen with Wexford, Kildare and Cabo (one or two seasons aside). That's the key problem with just making clubs up or bunging them in from nowhere. They're often great on paper but crap on the pitch, and the latter kills crowds. A club promoted by rights is going to be in a far better position to build on that.

One of the points of a pyramid system is that clubs should always be looking at what it'd need to take the next step up. It's clear that if they get promoted, there are so many additional requirements, and you can plan from there. So this planning process becomes an ongoing item - which most clubs don't have because they're happy being Wicklow District Champions or whatever. The FAI's role then is to encourage clubs to want to be promoted.

Approaching a club and saying "Look - in ten years we want you to be ready" doesn't make any sense. Compare the LoI ten years ago to the LoI now for example. Additional underage requirements, much less in the way of sponsorship, insurance costs in particular going way up - and that's before you get to the question of will it be a 10 or 12 or 5 or 17 team league in ten years. A plan that far ahead as a base requirement isn't really reasonable.


5) Review the progress of these clubs on a regular basis, and not be afraid to say to any of them where they're under-performing, or if it just isn't going to happen for them realistically.
This has worked well with licensing. Politically, it would also be a nasty Sword of Damocles to be holding over clubs who might put in a lot of work only to be told that actually, their face doesn't fit.


6) Let these clubs enter the League Cup automatically after a few years, to start blooding them against senior opposition. And also hold an annual tournament amongst all the candidate clubs to encourage them all to step up vs each other.
This again would achieve nothing. Let them aspire to being in the League Cup in five years? For what - one, maybe two, games against an understrength LoI side? Or a tournament against candidate clubs? What would be the point? And what would be the difference to, say, the LoI B Division or the A Championship, which were also tournaments for candidate league members against each other? You're talking about a tournament with less profile than the First Division Shield.


8) The clubs that go through this process - all or part of the way - will be left in a better position as a result, even if they don't join the LOI. Football will have been improved even if it ends up adding no-one to the league.
They'll be in a better place by planning for promotion to a league that most don't want to join (because it's a basketcase with no practical way out, the key issue which hasn't been addressed) and in the space of 5-10 years they'll have played maybe one League Cup match against a mix of UCD's first-team and U19s and also a roundrobin tournament against Carlow, Monaghan and Irish Sea?

Sorry - doesn't stack up.

[Real ale Madrid]

Big issue for me is how do you convince the Pike Rovers' / Bunratty's / St. Michaels' of this world to compete in an MSL with the clubs from Cork? Without forcing them to that is.

I don't know much about the LSL but down here football is generationally so disjointed at this stage that I'd say it's nearly impossible to fix without disenfranchisement of some.

[pineapple stu]

Arguably there's a shift already starting which could help that happen, and that's that people nowadays are going to the gym to keep fit rather than playing team sports. I think - happy to be corrected here - that a fair few of the county district leagues are shrinking badly enough at this stage. Surely at some stage, consolidating some of the leagues will be beneficial, if not essential?

I agree it's not an easy one though.

[Dr. football]

Big issue for me is how do you convince the Pike Rovers' / Bunratty's / St. Michaels' of this world to compete in an MSL with the clubs from Cork? Without forcing them to that is.

I don't know much about the LSL but down here football is generationally so disjointed at this stage that I'd say it's nearly impossible to fix without disenfranchisement of some.


Travel cost only would be mental and wouldn’t work without large funding from fai. Also put an end to Sunday morning fixtures.

[Dr. football]

The Tralee example keeps popping up and it shows how stupid having the elite playing summer season and most others playing winter is. Fai need to grow pair of balls and change 1.

And if a club leaves it’s local league for the LOI and it fails they should be placed back into the division below in the league they left might encourage more to take a gamble, make it a directive from FAI and it would have to be followed country wide. (If we don’t have a pyramid)

[Real ale Madrid]

Travel cost only would be mental and wouldn’t work without large funding from fai. Also put an end to Sunday morning fixtures.

I don't think travel Costs would be a huge deal tbh. Its not as if you are travelling from Goleen to Nenagh. Most top clubs would be only a few hours both ways max , the odd one would be longer. If you could get a Motorway built between Cork and Limerick even better.

[EalingGreen]

I don't think travel Costs would be a huge deal tbh. Its not as if you are travelling from Goleen to Nenagh. Most top clubs would be only a few hours both ways max , the odd one would be longer.
Reluctance to meet the cost and time required is often cited as a factor - in NI as much as anywhere - but if you have a properly run, competitive competition, then the more progressive teams (at least) will respond.

Besides, you only need look at sparsely populated countries like Norway or Sweden who somehow cope with far bigger distances.

Or closer to home, the Highland League in Scotland, some of whose teams have seized upon the chance to rise through the divisions towards the SFL.

A few weeks back, the BBC highlighted this Brora Rangers player and the trek he regularly makes just for home games, never mind this away cup game in Edinburgh:

Part-time players are used to days off work and long trips to pursue their football dreams, but how about a ferry journey and a two-and-a-half hour drive before the team bus sets off for another three-hour haul?

That's what Brora Rangers defender John Pickles has to look forward to when the Highland League champions travel to Hibernian for Wednesday's League Cup tie.

And then there's an overnight excursion from his home in Finstown, Orkney, to Dingwall on Saturday for a Covid-19 test before he's even allowed to play at Easter Road.

As he said himself:
"Games like this are such fantastic opportunities. You want to test yourself against the best opposition possible, you want to go to the big stadiums. It is a good trip for boys like us who don't get to play in places like that every week, so it is very exciting."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54376917

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/800/cpsprodpb/EC07/production/_114732406_fadfs.jpg

The village of Brora is in Sutherland, about 50 miles north of Inverness on that map.

[EatYerGreens]

The posts above are getting bogged down, so I'm keen to keep things at the principle stage.

There are two conflicting points of view here. The first (Pineapple Stu, Ealing Green) is that a pyramid will make the LOI more stable in terms of new clubs. It appears to be based on a belief that a pyramid will somehow whip clubs who want to join the LOI into better shape for when they do get the chance to join. However - my point question is how ? I point out again that the majority of clubs who've been admitted to the league over the last century (especially in ones and twos) have bene the best in the Intermediate game at that time. Some even tried on multiple occasions to join the LOI in the years before they were admitted (e.g. St James's Gate). Yet they were still in no stronger position for when it did happen. Gate were a Top 1/2 LSL side at the time they joined, and had recently done well in the FAI Cup too. Likewise St Francis. If there had been a pyramid in-place in the early 1990s they would actually have joined the LOI EARLIER than they did in the end (which was when Gate were expelled in 1997), because they were romping the LSL every year. But when they did take the step up events proved that they were in no better shape for having waited longer to enter or for being the best in the Intermediate game at that time. So I'm really not seeing how a connected 3rd tier will magically make Intermediate clubs better suited to take the big step up to the senior game. Just like the facet there is a clear route from the FD to the PD provides no guarantee whatsoever that clubs who get promoted will somehow be better equipped to survive in the top tier. So can it credibly be explained how linking the intermediate game into the LOI will suddenly make clubs more viable, stable etc ?

The other contrasting view to this - which I'm giving - is that we SHOULD have a pyramid system, but acknowledge that in-of-itself it isn't a silver bullet. So allied to it there should also be a strategically planned process of ensuring that interested clubs with the raw ingredients to succeed and compete at a higher level (catchment area, facilities etc) are worked with over time to get them into a better shape to take the step up to the senior game if results on the pitch enable them to do so. This is particularly important as it is likely that the top teams at the Intermediate Level won't want to take the step up to the LOI (because it is currently financial and organisational suicide to do so). So unless the next place is willing to go up in their stead, the pyramid becomes a farce.

In summary - both approaches believe in a pyramid. One believes it will magically make clubs more stable, whilst the other believes that history shows it won't and that it should therefore be combined with a strategy and plan to ensure that likely contenders ARE in a better shape to survive for when they take the step up. One approach is essentially throwing the dice and hoping things will somehow be better than they have been for the last 100 years. The other approach is about loading the dice so you're more likely to get a positive outcome. People can decide for themselves which they think is likely to result in more stable new entrants, and to reduce/finish the endless revolving of the LOI over the last century.

[EalingGreen]

In summary - both approaches believe in a pyramid. One believes it will magically make clubs more stable, whilst the other believes that history shows it won't and that it should therefore be combined with a strategy and plan to ensure that likely contenders ARE in a better shape to survive for when they take the step up..
Can't speak for P.Stu, but I certainly don't believe in "magic" or Silver Bullets etc.

But as I said previously, you don't start with the top tier(s) and try to build down i.e. by plucking clubs from below.

Rather you build from the bottom up. And if this means amalgamation and regionalisation of existing leagues, plus a move away from the imbalance of provincial associations (Leinster vs 3 x Ulster counties?), then get to work.

This can be achieved by a combination of carrot and stick i.e. for the former, funding and support goes to the progressive leagues, with these being withdrawn from those leagues which decline to join in. At worst, the FAI could refuse recognition or affiliation of recalcitrant clubs/leagues, whilst withholding coaching and facilities grants, at the same time as lobbying the government to do the same. Ditto with referees and coaches - push these towards recognised leagues and withhold them from unrecognised leagues, all to the benefit of those leagues and clubs which do play ball (sorry).

Of course, this is not going to happen overnight, which is why it needs to be part of a medium-to-long term plan, so players, clubs, leagues and administrators can "get their ducks in a row" over time. But if they know what they're building towards, then they're far more likely to sign up.

Then once you've got a functioning Junior and Intermediate set-up, you can start to integrate them into the upper tiers of the pyramid, with full Promotion and Relegation.

You're probably talking about a minimum of a decade to see results, but that's just better reason to start now.

Then once it's firmly established, you could even start thinking of an amalgamation with the IFA set-up and form, say, an all-Ireland league!

How's that for thinking outside the box? :)

[nigel-harps1954]

The posts above are getting bogged down, so I'm keen to keep things at the principle stage.

There are two conflicting points of view here. The first (Pineapple Stu, Ealing Green) is that a pyramid will make the LOI more stable in terms of new clubs. It appears to be based on a belief that a pyramid will somehow whip clubs who want to join the LOI into better shape for when they do get the chance to join. However - my point question is how ? I point out again that the majority of clubs who've been admitted to the league over the last century (especially in ones and twos) have bene the best in the Intermediate game at that time. Some even tried on multiple occasions to join the LOI in the years before they were admitted (e.g. St James's Gate). Yet they were still in no stronger position for when it did happen. Gate were a Top 1/2 LSL side at the time they joined, and had recently done well in the FAI Cup too. Likewise St Francis. If there had been a pyramid in-place in the early 1990s they would actually have joined the LOI EARLIER than they did in the end (which was when Gate were expelled in 1997), because they were romping the LSL every year. But when they did take the step up events proved that they were in no better shape for having waited longer to enter or for being the best in the Intermediate game at that time. So I'm really not seeing how a connected 3rd tier will magically make Intermediate clubs better suited to take the big step up to the senior game. Just like the facet there is a clear route from the FD to the PD provides no guarantee whatsoever that clubs who get promoted will somehow be better equipped to survive in the top tier. So can it credibly be explained how linking the intermediate game into the LOI will suddenly make clubs more viable, stable etc ?

The other contrasting view to this - which I'm giving - is that we SHOULD have a pyramid system, but acknowledge that in-of-itself it isn't a silver bullet. So allied to it there should also be a strategically planned process of ensuring that interested clubs with the raw ingredients to succeed and compete at a higher level (catchment area, facilities etc) are worked with over time to get them into a better shape to take the step up to the senior game if results on the pitch enable them to do so. This is particularly important as it is likely that the top teams at the Intermediate Level won't want to take the step up to the LOI (because it is currently financial and organisational suicide to do so). So unless the next place is willing to go up in their stead, the pyramid becomes a farce.

In summary - both approaches believe in a pyramid. One believes it will magically make clubs more stable, whilst the other believes that history shows it won't and that it should therefore be combined with a strategy and plan to ensure that likely contenders ARE in a better shape to survive for when they take the step up. One approach is essentially throwing the dice and hoping things will somehow be better than they have been for the last 100 years. The other approach is about loading the dice so you're more likely to get a positive outcome. People can decide for themselves which they think is likely to result in more stable new entrants, and to reduce/finish the endless revolving of the LOI over the last century.

You're forgetting something very important when you reference the likes of St Francis and St James Gate there.

With a pyramid, you don't just get promotion, you get relegation too.

The likes of Mervue, Salthill, St James Gate, St Francis, Wexford, and many others would have got the chance to drop a division, instead of stagnation at the bottom of the closed first division, never getting a chance to grow as a club, seen as the perennial losers.

[pineapple stu]

EYG - I've already said that I don't see a pyramid as a silver bullet. I don't know why you keep saying that I do, but it does indicate that you're not really engaging in a proper debate, which is disappointing to be honest. So can I ask you to stop putting words in my mouth and arguing points that I'm not making?

You say that you're arguing for a pyramid system as well - but you're not. You're arguing for a franchise-based system where clubs are identified on strategic grounds and parachuted into the league regardless of on-field ability. That's the exact opposite of a pyramid. You're arguing that you sit down with a few clubs, give them 5-10 years to do up a bit of fundraising plan, throw a couple of quasi-competitive League Cup games at them and things will work out - but there isn't the remotest idea as to why this should happen. Or what will happen if things don't work out.

You say -


One approach is essentially throwing the dice and hoping things will somehow be better than they have been for the last 100 years.

But that's your approach. You're picking clubs based on population area, inviting them to the league and hoping they take off. The only thing you've done is told them to go off and do a strategic plan and think about fundraising. Other than that, it's the exact same reason Wexford, Cabo, Kildare, Tralee, etc, were in the league.

Nigel makes a key point on relegation. Yes, Gate were a very good LSL team who would have made the step up to LoI earlier in a real pyramid. But they'd also have been booted out earlier. They joined (most recently) in 1991/92. They had two top-half FD finishes in their first two seasons and for a while you could say they had the potential to build on something. Then the next three years they were last, last and second last. In at least two of those years (depending on one or two relegation places), I would say they go back to LSL and let someone else have a go.

And this is why a pyramid system is essentially more stable than what we have now - which is to all intents and purposes what you want to keep. Once again, I'll cite the Tralee case - which you keep ignoring - as an example of inherent instability of a system where you have to leave your league, wait six months for a game, and you know that if things don't work out you'll have to leave the LoI, wait another six months for a game, and get relegated back to the bottom tier of the local league you came from. That's unstable. So much so that it's too much of a risk for many clubs to take - and that's exactly what we're seeing.

Effectively, a pyramid system is about Darwinian natural selection finding the best teams on and off the pitch to come up to LoI level, while relegating the likes of Wexford who (with all due respect to them) have been wasting everyone's time the last couple of years. It can't be helping them grow the club down there to see them regularly ship eight goals to UCD and they would arguably be better off regrouping at a lower level where they can again be competitive and generate a bit of interest. You say "history shows" this won't happen - but it can't show that because a pyramid scheme has never been in place in this country.

[passinginterest]

Big issue for me is how do you convince the Pike Rovers' / Bunratty's / St. Michaels' of this world to compete in an MSL with the clubs from Cork? Without forcing them to that is.

I don't know much about the LSL but down here football is generationally so disjointed at this stage that I'd say it's nearly impossible to fix without disenfranchisement of some.

Ah it's pyramid time again, it's been a while! Without getting into the nitty gritty, the only way it happens if is the FAI refuses affiliation to all of the smaller leagues, you're either in the FAI league, which is junior (basically along the lines of county leagues with a reduced number of random leagues all over the place), intermediate, which could have a couple of levels, slightly expanded to neighbouring counties, before the top level of provincial. If you're not affiliated to the FAI pyramid you don't qualify for major grants, or get the use of facilities or referees etc.

It would take a strong will from the FAI and I'm not sure how you get around the fact that it would probably mean some powerful junior leagues voting themselves out of existence (or at least being forced to rebrand and restructure).

[pineapple stu]

I'd agree with all that.

Though what you describe wouldn't be an unprecedented step in that it's very similar to what happened the LoI in 2006.

Appreciate though there's a lot more politics and votes at play in doing it at the lower levels. Which is silly, but true.

[Real ale Madrid]

To be fair to the lower leagues in some instances - its more than just politics and votes - there is no attraction to a team in Limerick playing in a 10 team MSL with 9 Cork teams.

[Dr. football]

Ah it's pyramid time again, it's been a while! Without getting into the nitty gritty, the only way it happens if is the FAI refuses affiliation to all of the smaller leagues, you're either in the FAI league, which is junior (basically along the lines of county leagues with a reduced number of random leagues all over the place), intermediate, which could have a couple of levels, slightly expanded to neighbouring counties, before the top level of provincial. If you're not affiliated to the FAI pyramid you don't qualify for major grants, or get the use of facilities or referees etc.

It would take a strong will from the FAI and I'm not sure how you get around the fact that it would probably mean some powerful junior leagues voting themselves out of existence (or at least being forced to rebrand and restructure).


Yes and every plays on the calendar.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, and I think there's a similar thing in Leinster because the LSL is mostly Dublin and then you've Wicklow leagues, Wexford leagues, etc.

But a full Munster league would be stronger than the MSL (if you add one team from Limerick, it would have to be stronger). I get the feeling there's a lot of clubs happy being big fish in small ponds, and I don't think that's a good thing as a general rule. It means there's no reason to push yourself as a club and try improve.

I think that bigger picture is more important, though it's definitely correct to note that it wouldn't be an easy switch. But the current system is daft.

[sidewayspasser]

To be fair to the lower leagues in some instances - its more than just politics and votes - there is no attraction to a team in Limerick playing in a 10 team MSL with 9 Cork teams.
That's understandable, but would that be how an MSL for all of Munster look like, 9 teams from Cork and one from Limerick, none from any of the other counties? I would assume that it would be more diverse than that if it really covered all of Munster.

[pineapple stu]

Surely a Kerry team would be good enough - Tralee?

Are there no teams in Tipp, Clare or Waterford who'd be strong enough?

And would Limerick only have one team of sufficient strength? Based on recent FAI Cups, they'd have more surely?

It doesn't have to be a 10-team league either (although I appreciate that'd negate my point about new teams strengthening the league to an extent)

[Real ale Madrid]

That's understandable, but would that be how an MSL for all of Munster look like, 9 teams from Cork and one from Limerick, none from any of the other counties? I would assume that it would be more diverse than that if it really covered all of Munster.

I suppose that is the argument that the MSL sides are stronger in general than the Limerick / Tipp / Kerry sides specifically. and that after a few years all the regional teams would drop down. When Tralee and more specifically Killarney played in the MSL in my memory anyway they always struggled to win more than a few games a season.

Ideally a Premier Division would include both Tralee Dynamos and Killarney Celtic, Pike Rovers and another Limerick Team or two, St Michaels from Tipp with perhaps a Peake Villa, Bunratty from Clare and I'm not sure the Junior teams in Waterford are traditionally that strong in the last 20/25 years. Getting that sort of balance is difficult - probably impossible unless the financial incentives are there so that the best players then gravitate towards them.

[Martinho II]

Surely a Kerry team would be good enough - Tralee?

Are there no teams in Tipp, Clare or Waterford who'd be strong enough?

And would Limerick only have one team of sufficient strength? Based on recent FAI Cups, they'd have more surely?

It doesn't have to be a 10-team league either (although I appreciate that'd negate my point about new teams strengthening the league to an extent)

Considering we had a tipperary team briefly in the 1970s in loi does anyone know is Thurles town still in existence as a club?

[littlebray]

Thurles Town played in the League of Ireland from 1977–78 until 1981–82. Their best performance was a ninth-place finish in 1979–80.

They are still active in the North Tipperary & District League, Premier Division, with fixtures and results reported for this past summer (while Level 3 was in place), but their website appears to be defunct and their Twitter and Facebook accounts well out of date.

They seem to be playing out of the Greyhound Stadium in Thurles, as they have since 1950.

It is hard to avoid the thought that they must have been involved in the abortive Sporting Club Thurles, which was elected to the planned new First Division in early 1985, but withdrew at the last minute, at a meeting of the League Management Committee on 23 August 1985. The reason/excuse given was that they hadn't been able to secure the use of the Greyhound Stadium - which was odd seeing that it had been in use for matches for the previous 30 years.

[wonder88]

Went across to have a look at the Greyhound Stadium while down at the hurling last summer (19). Great facility, didn't know soccer was still being played, but that is good to hear. I take it there is no other Greyhound ground being used by a soccer team?
It was a glorious summer's day, and there was a large crowd their having their pre-match pints. Many of them were out on the balcony and viewing stand, and I tried to imagine how it would be like to have Thurles Town playing a league of Ireland game there.
Shelbourne v Galway cup game at Harold's Cross was the only game I have been at in a greyhound ground. I am sure many on this forum have been to good few. What do folks think of them as venues for LOI matches?

[Longfordian]

I've only been to The Brandywell before they renovated it but I felt the track took away from the atmosphere a bit. You felt a bit too har removed from the action compared to a traditional ground like say Richmond Park or Dalymount.

[Charlie Darwin]

That'd be an awful idea in fairness. Irish people have no personal affinity with the educational institutions that just happen to be in their area, and even those who currently or previously attended them have limited emotional ties to them as well.
This is true if you think of it from the perspective of them being private clubs who can grow and sustain themselves as businesses.

If you look at it from a player development point of view, colleges are a great breeding ground for footballers who may not have gotten opportunities through the normal channels, and the number of players who have come through four years in UCD with an education and the prospect of a career in the game shows that.

Colleges all spend money on sport with no expectation of a financial return - it's just that rugby and athletics tend to get a much bigger slice of it. We should absolutely be encouraging UCC in particular to try and step up their programme.

[Charlie Darwin]

We have a fundamental problem in Irish football. If we go down the pyramid route, we end up with teams that are good on the pitch at an intermediate level but will struggle at a senior level - and invariably have no fans. Worst still they'll end up all being from the same place - like the one time when we actually did have a pyramid and we ended up with 3 clubs in Galway city. Ridiculous.
To be fair, there was all sorts of stuff going on regarding the three Galway clubs that no competent organisation would have contemplated, and you couldn't really say they got there as a result of a 'pyramid' in any meaningful sense of the word.

I think a well-defined pyramid structure that brings together the best teams (ie get the likes of North End to stop being a big fish in a tiny league and competing in the LSL) with election to the top level for clubs that have won their regional league and have a serious plan for senior football would work well. It would mean reducing the entry requirements to the FD and that would bring difficulties to but I think it could be done.

[Nesta99]

Thurles Town played in the League of Ireland from 1977–78 until 1981–82. Their best performance was a ninth-place finish in 1979–80.

They are still active in the North Tipperary & District League, Premier Division, with fixtures and results reported for this past summer (while Level 3 was in place), but their website appears to be defunct and their Twitter and Facebook accounts well out of date.

They seem to be playing out of the Greyhound Stadium in Thurles, as they have since 1950.

It is hard to avoid the thought that they must have been involved in the abortive Sporting Club Thurles, which was elected to the planned new First Division in early 1985, but withdrew at the last minute, at a meeting of the League Management Committee on 23 August 1985. The reason/excuse given was that they hadn't been able to secure the use of the Greyhound Stadium - which was odd seeing that it had been in use for matches for the previous 30 years.

I actually know someting (at least 1 side ) of the story as my family are originally from North Tipp and often had relatives go to Oriel over the years when visiting. The greyhound people wanted a cut of the gate + the flat rent in the original agreement. A rent increase was offered but not a cut of the gate every other week on top. I dont know whether this is true or was an assumption but it was said that with the novelty factor and sides like Derry visiting, it was going to mean big crowds and some people saw the $$ and wanted a piece of that. The merged teams of Sporting Club I dont know, eg Town FC/AFC or Peake as like the LoI side but I doubt it was a cosy arrangement in the first place just going on how parochial they are in general and wouldnt have taken much for things to crumble. I know the GAA gets blamed for plenty but minutes from Hayes Hotel and Semple Stadium right beside - if large crowds were turning up to soccer games, well I cant help it myself to consider that maybe there was more to demands for rent + % of gate income.
https://i2.wp.com/theleagueofireland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/img_6487.jpg?resize=840%2C634&ssl=1

[Charlie Darwin]

I actually know someting (at least 1 side ) of the story as my family are originally from North Tipp and often had relatives go to Oriel over the year when visiting.
Were they wearing hi-viz vests?

[Nesta99]

Were they wearing hi-viz vests?

*years!! I hope not or we'd have a walking dead situation going on;)

[EatYerGreens]

I actually know someting (at least 1 side ) of the story as my family are originally from North Tipp and often had relatives go to Oriel over the years when visiting. The greyhound people wanted a cut of the gate + the flat rent in the original agreement. A rent increase was offered but not a cut of the gate every other week on top. I dont know whether this is true or was an assumption but it was said that with the novelty factor and sides like Derry visiting, it was going to mean big crowds and some people saw the $$ and wanted a piece of that. The merged teams of Sporting Club I dont know, eg Town FC/AFC or Peake as like the LoI side but I doubt it was a cosy arrangement in the first place just going on how parochial they are in general and wouldnt have taken much for things to crumble. I know the GAA gets blamed for plenty but minutes from Hayes Hotel and Semple Stadium right beside - if large crowds were turning up to soccer games, well I cant help it myself to consider that maybe there was more to demands for rent + % of gate income.

Derry hadn't joined the league at that point though, and nobody knew then that they would have the big crowds that they initially did.

There was actually a lot of apprehension about Derry joining the LOI, as the Troubles were still blazing away at the time and a lot of people feared it would impact the football and there'd be problems at games. Especially with the proposal of having no police at games in the Brandywell. So there is no way anyone in Thurles would reasonably have expected Derry to result in big crowds. If they had any expectations at all re them, it would probably have been of a more negative variety.

Only Rovers drew 'big' crowds in those days really (and no bigger than today IMO).

[Nesta99]

You may well be spot on and it was retrospective thinking and a long time ago. Whenever we went to Oriel with visitors the general chat was wishing that there was a team from Thurles/North Tipp (even Nenagh) playing. Unfortunately that generation of family are all gone so there is no one to ask. Big hurling family so the level interest was a bit unusual thinking back though they travelled up and went to European games with my Uncle and top of the list was obviously the Celtic game. I loved the stories about that as I was months old about then, but its possibly where and why their interest was piqued. Bit of glamour going to Oriel Park on European nights back then too when Oriel was one of the top grounds in the league!

[EalingGreen]

(Originally Posted by EatYerGreens)
"We have a fundamental problem in Irish football. If we go down the pyramid route, we end up with teams that are good on the pitch at an intermediate level but will struggle at a senior level - and invariably have no fans. Worst still they'll end up all being from the same place - like the one time when we actually did have a pyramid and we ended up with 3 clubs in Galway city. Ridiculous."


To be fair, there was all sorts of stuff going on regarding the three Galway clubs that no competent organisation would have contemplated, and you couldn't really say they got there as a result of a 'pyramid' in any meaningful sense of the word.


If you think about it, a pyramid system incorporating P&R and supported by proper Licensing system would actually have solved the Galway problem before it even arose.

That is, the best of the three teams would play at Senior level (Championship?), the next best at Intermediate level and the third at Junior level, with all three having the potential to move up or down, depending on how they perform over time.

[Charlie Darwin]

If you think about it, a pyramid system incorporating P&R and supported by proper Licensing system would actually have solved the Galway problem before it even arose.

That is, the best of the three teams would play at Senior level (Championship?), the next best at Intermediate level and the third at Junior level, with all three having the potential to move up or down, depending on how they perform over time.
I think so too, but it'd be a big effort to sync all that up, especially with Mayo being the next biggest football area in Connacht and operating on a summer season while everyone else in junior football is on a winter schedule. If they could iron it out and have an intermediate league spanning Connacht and Donegal, it would be a real improvement, but it would need serious leadership and support, financially and otherwise, from the FAI, which we can all dream about.

[Eminence Grise]

Realistically for a pyramid you’d be looking to consolidate smaller/weaker leagues into about 20 district leagues, feeding into four regional intermediate divisions, feeding into a north-south regionalised first division, then the premier, all on the same calendar. From regional up, that’s 70-80 teams. Easy peasy, just add millions, proper governance and oversight, and a Corinthian spirit for local mafia dons to vote themselves out of existence.

We can but dream…

[GUFCghost]

Realistically for a pyramid you’d be looking to consolidate smaller/weaker leagues into about 20 district leagues, feeding into four regional intermediate divisions, feeding into a north-south regionalised first division, then the premier, all on the same calendar. From regional up, that’s 70-80 teams. Easy peasy, just add millions, proper governance and oversight, and a Corinthian spirit for local mafia dons to vote themselves out of existence.

We can but dream…

This exactly it, there's no point in thinking about this without being utopian.

What needs to be done is a doomsday book of Irish football. Every club in the country consulted about their desires of a pyramid and categorised into either junior, intermediate and senior.

[EalingGreen]

Realistically for a pyramid you’d be looking to consolidate smaller/weaker leagues into about 20 district leagues, feeding into four regional intermediate divisions, feeding into a north-south regionalised first division, then the premier, all on the same calendar. From regional up, that’s 70-80 teams.You mean like in NI (except the regionalised 1st Division)?
https://www.irishfa.com/irish-football-association/intermediate-football-restructure-project


Easy peasy, just add millions, proper governance and oversight, and a Corinthian spirit for local mafia dons to vote themselves out of existence.
No millions for us, nor any shortage of local mafia dons, but we're making progress.

P.S. I'm not saying the IL system is perfect (far from it), nor am I seeking to score points etc. But I am concerned that if/when an AIL ever comes about, I wouldn't like to see the IL tied to another league which is still financially and structurally unstable.

[DCSIL]

Derry hadn't joined the league at that point though, and nobody knew then that they would have the big crowds that they initially did.

There was actually a lot of apprehension about Derry joining the LOI, as the Troubles were still blazing away at the time and a lot of people feared it would impact the football and there'd be problems at games.

Some in Donegal have never accepted it with the "Go back to your own league" Banners.