Cork FORAS vote to sell the club to Preston North End owner

[Kingdom]

As for our budgets, the idea was that we wouldn't spend above our means but in reality it seems we set aggressive budgets trying to keep up with Dundalk that relied heavily on large attendances, once those attedances fell away we were in trouble. Questions at AGMS on these budgets were sort of waved off. Add to that the unexpected tax issue and we ended up with the 650k debt figure reported in February. There is a lot of anger among FORAS members that we have allowed ourselves to get into the position we are in today. We were proud of what we thought was a sustainable model but it seems that it was not as sustainable as thought and there are not lots of questons about governance and how a board was able to set such high budgets. The question now though is, if the sale goes through, what purpose does FORAS serve.

Appreciate your honesty there. Sale or no sale, the question probably remains valid.

[El-Pietro]

Appreciate your honesty there. Sale or no sale, the question probably remains valid.

If there is no sale then the question is a little different. It becomes, what do we need to do to make sure this doesn't happen again, how do we reshape FORAS. If FORAS no longer runs the club then what is its purpose, does it remain in the background in case of a new crisis, does it raise funds for facilities, youth teams? If so how does the general public feel about fund raising for facilities or youth teams that are owned or operated by a billionaire?

[Nesta99]

I think you are mixing up a few seasons here. We had a good start to the 2018 season and attendances remained high. 2017: 4,559. 2018 4,245, though there was talk at the itme of the crowds being inflated by non attending season ticket holders.

We faltered in the middle/second half of 2018 and had a poor showing in Europe (though I think the bye in round 2 did more harm than good, and if we had lost to Legia, won against an unseeded team in the second round and then lost to Rosenborg things would look rosier than they did with the bye). Despite the standard of play starting to drop in the second half of 2018 we still reached the FAI Cup final and probably put in our best performance of the four finals but fell short.

In 2019 our recruitment was awful. We had a reduced budget but it was still relatively high, but the players brought in clearly were not of the necessary standard. Caulfield was let go after a disastrous start, and in hindsight many people wonder if that was the right choice, more so outside the club than in, but things got really toxic on and off the field and even his most diehard fans started to question him. ON the field things were not going well. By the time Caulfield was let go we had 13 points from 14 games and no wins in 8. Including a loss away to UCD and a draw at home to Finn Harps. Crowds were poor and our budgets relied on attendances. I don' tknow what the average attendance was when Caulfield left but we ended the season with an average of 2,505.

As for our budgets, the idea was that we wouldn't spend above our means but in reality it seems we set aggressive budgets trying to keep up with Dundalk that relied heavily on large attendances, once those attedances fell away we were in trouble. Questions at AGMS on these budgets were sort of waved off. Add to that the unexpected tax issue and we ended up with the 650k debt figure reported in February. There is a lot of anger among FORAS members that we have allowed ourselves to get into the position we are in today. We were proud of what we thought was a sustainable model but it seems that it was not as sustainable as thought and there are not lots of questons about governance and how a board was able to set such high budgets. The question now though is, if the sale goes through, what purpose does FORAS serve.

I could be merging seasons and events, but I think I phrased it badly too referring to 2018. I meant that thinking back to the beginning of 2018 nobody would have seen things pan out the way they did subsequently. Apologies though if I have mixed up a time line although it wouldnt really change the gist.

I was quite surprised at the time and I'm sure I mentioned it here about where the checks and balances were fpr the board from the membership. Iirc it was explained that a general policy is set by the members and then the board micro manage and set specific budgets eg maybe a budget to challange for the title being a mandate without being specific about limits? It also seemed that the board also acted against the general consensus from members and wondered why they werent held to task. I'd have been furious about that and more so now!! It's not particularly relevant and could be seen as scapegoating previous board members i know, but it was looking from the outside that there were problems - a risk taken that worst case wont happen but did wth on pitch performances. Fan ownership is to be lauded but fans are the worst to react to problems or are blinkered to reality at times. Hence a hybrid model or employing a very strong CEO to be blunt and forthright with facts and figures are needed!!

FORAS has an essential role still as a proactive, organised, fans' Trust that can lobby or maybe one day step up to the plate again. I really wish Dundak fans had somthing similar on the go.

[El-Pietro]

I could be merging seasons and events, but I think I phrased it badly too referring to 2018. I meant that thinking back to the beginning of 2018 nobody would have seen things pan out the way they did subsequently. Apologies though if I have mixed up a time line although it wouldnt really change the gist.

I was quite surprised at the time and I'm sure I mentioned it here about where the checks and balances were fpr the board from the membership. Iirc it was explained that a general policy is set by the members and then the board micro manage and set specific budgets eg maybe a budget to challange for the title being a mandate without being specific about limits? It also seemed that the board also acted against the general consensus from members and wondered why they werent held to task. I'd have been furious about that and more so now!! It's not particularly relevant and could be seen as scapegoating previous board members i know, but it was looking from the outside that there were problems - a risk taken that worst case wont happen but did wth on pitch performances. Fan ownership is to be lauded but fans are the worst to react to problems or are blinkered to reality at times. Hence a hybrid model or employing a very strong CEO to be blunt and forthright with facts and figures are needed!!

FORAS has an essential role still as a proactive, organised, fans' Trust that can lobby or maybe one day step up to the plate again. I really wish Dundak fans had somthing similar on the go.
One of the biggest structural issues was timing of the AGM in relation to the season. Our AGMS are typically in February/March and we have to vote to approve the budget for the year. We can ask all the questions we like, and there were times where it got heated, most notably ahead of the 2019 season when the forecasted crowd seemed ridiculous to many in the room but in the end if we don't approve the budget what would happen? Players are signed, licensing is finalised, if we rejected it then we would realistically come back a few weeks later to approve a similar budget but with costs cut in other areas.

We also elect new board members at the same AGM and in any given year there can be quite a lot of turnover so you can be in a position where you have a mostly new board dealing with a budget that they had no input to, and that was pretty much the case in 2019, with only one member on the board from the previous season, this was due to term limits (members are elected to 3 year terms and can run again but there are limits to how long any one idividual can stay on the board without a break) but also the untimely passing of Pat Shine who had been elected the previous year. So in 2019 we had an almost entirely new board untangling the budgetary issues of a board who had set aggressive targets that were unlikely to be met unless we were competing at the top of the table, and given the poor recruitment by John Caulfield we were soon in trouble.

[Lim till i die]

So since foras took over the club the meetings to approve budgets were held after budgets were spent basically?

Outgoing boards setting budgets for new boards?

More or less whole boards all elected for the same terms so they'd be leaving at the same time?

Was nice for the members to be able to ask as many pointless questions as they wanted though. A lot of people love that.

So in effect every year the members were presented with a fait accompli that they could break wind about in meetings for as long as they liked before changing nothing.

Then when the **** hits the fan they're presented with another fait accompli

These are the people that were travelling around lecturing on how to run clubs :D

[Nesta99]

Appreciate the candour in that explination EP, but that sounds like a ridiculously busted rules of procedure or constitution. If it were causing problems, there were 10 years to adjust things to address what Ltid above outlines. Again it just seems strange - maybe there is a need for proper training for voluntary LoI club board members if such training doesnt exist. You cant expect everyone to know and understand even the basics of how a membership and their elected executive need to operate but those that do see the issues should be proposing procedural ammendments. Maybe a pro secretary general is what was needed needed. Well I wish CCFC luck with the new owners, of course not too much luck.

[El-Pietro]

So since foras took over the club the meetings to approve budgets were held after budgets were spent basically?

Outgoing boards setting budgets for new boards?

More or less whole boards all elected for the same terms so they'd be leaving at the same time?

Was nice for the members to be able to ask as many pointless questions as they wanted though. A lot of people love that.

So in effect every year the members were presented with a fait accompli that they could break wind about in meetings for as long as they liked before changing nothing.

Then when the **** hits the fan they're presented with another fait accompli

These are the people that were travelling around lecturing on how to run clubs :D
Thats a pretty simplistic view but its not entirely inaccurate. We were led to believe the club was running a profit for several years in a row and that there was a plan should attendances.performances drop off. Because we were winning/making a profit grumbling was at a minimum. Its very easy to say now we should have seen these problems earlier, but I suppose we became complacent and there were things hidden from the membership at large that only became apparent when the board changed. I am not going to go into details here for what I hope are obvious reasons. There was also the VAT issue which has still never been properly explained but it seems that this was an issue that tripped up several organisations and landed us with unexpected revenue debt.
A lot of what went wrong was the fault of the trust and membership at large. We should have been more vigilant, we should have done more to insist that we had more prudent budgets even if it meant we were less competitive. However there are individuals who made decisions and have never faced the trust and answered the questions we have for them. We were also to an extent a victim of circumstances outside of our control that exacerbated our problems. Our bad season and debt coincided with the collapse of the FAI and Limerick. This along with comments regarding the future stability of the LOI by the then Minister for Sport certainly had an effect on our ability to agree repayment schedules on the debt ahead of the licensing process and so we had to cash in our only asssets for a fraction of their value. As it happens Covid came along and those assets may well have ended up being worthless so perhaps we were lucky in a sense.

I'm really angry at myself for being complacent and not asking tougher questions. I'm angry at the trust as a whole for allowing ourselves to get into this position. I'm angry at individuals who made decisions that put us in danger. I'm angry at the events of the last week. I think the reality is this is the best solution for the club in the short term in terms of its ability to continue as more than an entirely amateur side (which I would not have been opposed to), but I do think the entire process was very one sided, not aided by the need to have a virtual meeting rather than being able to have a proper debate/discussion in a room with both sides presented and the ability to question those presenting and allow for follow up discussions to get to the heart of each point.

I still fundamentally believe that Fan run clubs are the best option for football over the long term. I fear the situaton we are in now where we are effectively at the whim of an individual and we have to hope he remains benevolent. Circumstances change and I'm sue many private owners of football clubs have considered their investments this year. There is nothing to stop Peak 6, Garrett Kelleher, Phillip O'Doherty or Trevor Hemmings from deciding that they are tired of sinking six figures into a football club each year for little return other than a warm feeling. I look at Harps, Sligo and Bohs and their ability to control their destiny, and in the case of Sligo in particular their ability to generate funds every single year and I am envious. On the other hand, running a club, even as an ordinary member is emotionally draining and it might be nice to go back to just being a supporter.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

It’s just an awful shame that it has come to this. Personally think there is not a chance in hell they wouldn’t have given Cork a licence next year cause of a 200k debt and that the board panicked with potential impact of Covid again next season.

Don’t about Desmond but Kelleher and O’Doherty have certainly shown their commitment and no one could criticise them if they pull out. Peak 6 would certainly worry me as Dundalk were a penalty shoot out in Sherif away from being in real trouble and I just cannot see how that doesn’t end in tears eventually. Hopefully Hemmings heart is in the right place. I don’t even think he needs to invest too much as Cork have proven already they can come from Division 1 to the top.

Fan owned clubs are great but you still need fans who are not going to lose the run of themselves which can be very difficult to do. Especially with the European money these days.

I’d like to see Cork back that way if possible in time with the lessons of the last few years learned.

[Martinho II]

Speaking of Limerick any word on them coming back next season? Its sad to see wot happened to Cork city but FORAS members have no choice considering the circumstances.

[sundance kid]

To all the cork lads on here, I genuinely wish you all the best with this next chapter. There's a few lads having sly digs on this thread, especially dundalk fans, but also that limerick idiot who really should know better. We've all been in similar places in our time supporting our clubs and it's sometimes hard to see the light at the end of tunnel, if there is actually light. But cork are a big club, big support, big catchment area, and if they stick together and regroup hopefully they'll be back challenging in the top flight soon enough. One of my favourite season s as a rovers fan was our stint in the first division, but hopefully I won't see another one. But it is a chance to slip under the radar and rebuild. I wish you well with it.

[sbgawa]

If he runs cork as well as he runs preston then cork might be back sooner than we think

[ger121]

I would have to agree with what sbgawa has said above. Preston are a well run club and you have to think he will approach Cork City the way he does any business venture.

[Burnsie]

https://www.echolive.ie/corksport/arid-40211531.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

This carry-on makes the club seem really tinpot and I can understand the board's anger. Absolutely no need for this consortium to do it this way (rather than, say, sponsoring or donating to the club directly) unless they're out to cause mischief. As an aside, if I recall correctly this lad Wycherley's time in charge coincided directly with the club's speedy transition from double-winners to basket case.

[EatYerGreens]

https://www.echolive.ie/corksport/arid-40211531.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

This carry-on makes the club seem really tinpot and I can understand the board's anger. Absolutely no need for this consortium to do it this way (rather than, say, sponsoring or donating to the club directly) unless they're out to cause mischief. As an aside, if I recall correctly this lad Wycherley's time in charge coincided directly with the club's speedy transition from double-winners to basket case.

I can't see UEFA/FIFA being happy with arrangements like this either. Otherwise fans at every club would be at it to get round salary caps, spending limits etc.

[Nesta99]

So a consortium of supporters is in some way challenging a club that is owned and run by a consortium of supporters!? Did the gift made to secure the player come in a brown envelope by any chance. The club have done the right thing by making a statement regardless of Groovemoor as it would have looked very bad if they said nothing and then came out in the wash. Probably would have had to have the FAI involved if it was a football related payment to the player that could have looked like it was made off the books, initially anyway. I'm sure players would have to inform their club of work outside the club, P/T players or not? Surely fundraising money should go to the club, while the fundraisers shouldnt really be able to dictate to a club how that money is spent it could have been arranged in an agreeable way rather than looking like there is schism developing.

Bar the call option agreement, what is the "contractual arrangement with Grovemoor Ltd, and we will be conducting our business in the proper manner by seeing out that arrangement.” Bar other potential issues with such a payment how is Grovemoor influencing things at CCFC after the sale of the club was put on hold over Turners Cross? It sound a bit odd in itself. (Agreeing not to increase debts further I suppose is reasonable if still intending to by the club but still would be someone who doesnt have a stake in the club dictating how the club is operating?).

[D24Saint]

https://www.thesun.ie/sport/6622106/liam-bossin-cork-city-dordrecht/

Interesting article if not surprising, reflects poorly on Fenn.

[Nesta99]

https://www.thesun.ie/sport/6622106/liam-bossin-cork-city-dordrecht/

Interesting article if not surprising, reflects poorly on Fenn.

Poor opinion on Fenn shocker! I wouldnt particularly associate him with professional behaviour...

[Yossarian]

It doesn’t read well on Fenn’s part though Bossin has a high opinion of himself.

[D24Saint]

It doesn’t read well on Fenn’s part though Bossin has a high opinion of himself.

Footballers often do. The majority always pull the it’s them not me when it hits the fan.

[MKMK]

Not so sure. Maybe Fenn did not get what he was expecting. Did not give him a lot of game time and I remember one performance against a junior side where he was very poor.
Based on his performances his opinion that he was the best keeper in the league is fanciful to say the least.
How much of this is driven by the fact that he did not nail down the position.

[joey B]

https://www.thesun.ie/sport/6622106/liam-bossin-cork-city-dordrecht/

Interesting article if not surprising, reflects poorly on Fenn.

Reflects poorly on his team-mates more ,he reckons he was 'the best keeper in the league' and a quick scan of wikepedia tells me had 11 appearances in senior football in 8 years, he sounds like a bit of a spoofer tbh........

[sadloserkid]

Reflects poorly on his team-mates more ,he reckons he was 'the best keeper in the league' and a quick scan of wikipedia tells me had 11 appearances in senior football in 8 years, he sounds like a bit of a spoofer tbh........

And he had a grand total of 3 senior appearances before turning up at Turners X, the last of them some 7 years earlier in the bowels of the Belgian second tier. Wiser men than Neil Fenn saw precious little in him.

[Mr A]

Let's just agree they're both awful.

[Nesta99]

Let's just agree they're both awful.

Agreed but any potential pop at Neale Fenn will never get old - probably says more about me!

[Mr A]

Agreed but any potential pop at Neale Fenn will never get old - probably says more about me!

Oh believe me my post was 99% a pop at Neale Fenn.

[joey B]

https://www.corkcityfc.ie/home/2022/10/27/club-update-from-board-of-management/

Appears the deal is pretty much dead now,Cork to seek other investment opportunities….

[outspoken]

https://www.corkcityfc.ie/home/2022/10/27/club-update-from-board-of-management/

Appears the deal is pretty much dead now,Cork to seek other investment opportunities….

But Grovemoore retain the call option which means no one else is going to want to invest. Foras membership opens next week, they'll need a big bump in membership if they want to compete for major honours again

[Jd2793]

But Grovemoore retain the call option which means no one else is going to want to invest. Foras membership opens next week, they'll need a big bump in membership if they want to compete for major honours again

we'll never compete for honours again and tbh it was even a long shot if GM got involved. They run a very tight ship at preston i find it hard to believe theyd sink enough money into an LOI club to make the challengers to rovers/derry.

[joey B]

https://mobile.twitter.com/CorkCityFC/status/1593181903087181825

Dermot Usher wants to buy Cork City,board unanimously backing it and will go to a vote from FORAS…..

[2 Year Contract]

Wasn’t he involved in backing Bray in the past? I know Sonas were Bray's jersey sponsor in the North Korea era but was it just that sponsorship or was Usher involved in funding in any other way does anyone know/remember?

[Glen Of Aherlow]

Wasn’t he involved in backing Bray in the past? I know Sonas were Bray's jersey sponsor in the North Korea era but was it just that sponsorship or was Usher involved in funding in any other way does anyone know/remember?

Think he's looked at buying Bray , Waterford and Dundalk in the past

[Jd2793]

it'll be getting a strong no from me.

[ger121]

Cork has sold or attempted to sell the club more times than we sold Dalymount and I thought that was an impressive feat.

[nr637]

I think it's a positive option, an Irish Businessman interested in purchasing an Irish club. How often have we been listening to critics of the game here asking where the investment from Irish Business is!

[Longfordian]

it'll be getting a strong no from me.

Is it him specifically or any one owner that you're opposed to out of curiosity?

[Jd2793]

Is it him specifically or any one owner that you're opposed to out of curiosity?

im sceptical of anyone "investing" or buying a loi club especially those that dotn have a connection to the club/area. kelleher, doherty and the rovers lad are all fans/locals. they wont go chasing the money back in time to come. why is this guy getting involved now? he will want his money back at some point presumably. he has no reason to stay put if things dont go to plan, whereas doherty can just throw money at it til the cows come home. nobody makes money in loi football. i hope this guy doesnt think he'll be any different.

[Longfordian]

Fair enough, thanks. Valid concerns but I guess you have to trust the current regime to have done their due diligence on him.

[placid casual]

Hopefully the due diligence that's done by FORAS is a bit better than all the previous checks done on the many, many snake oil salesmen that have rocked up to turner's cross promising the sun, moon and stars over the years.

[sbgawa]

Money coming into Shels and Cork, looks like next year's premier is going to be a competitive one

[nr637]

Money coming into Shels and Cork, looks like next year's premier is going to be a competitive one

Thats what we want to hear, the obvious are Shamrock Rovers and Derry City, while Dundalk, St. Pats & Sligo will improve. Now we can add Cork City, Shel's & Bohs who are going proper full-time 2024.
All the investment will allow these teams have a better full-time setup, which should hopefully make for a more competitive league.

It will make the transfer market very interesting now too, before the new season starts, plenty of options around for players who are considering moving or not! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[joey B]

1599470780684926977

Cork City takeover confirmed….

[culloty82]

With 86% approval, no less:

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2022/1204/1339948-cork-city-members-agree-takeover-with-86-vote/

[sidewayspasser]

86% is a lot more than I expected.

[RealJohn91]

Such a shame to see how much support the sale had from the outside. Cork had so much potential as a fan owned club and seem to have just given that away to some lad who could disappear like others have in the past.

[Stav]

I suppose at some stage you have to give the guy credit for putting his money into the club. Fan owned club is great but the reality is that the top 3/4 teams depending on who wins the cup are the sides with the money. How does a fan owned club match the budget of the big boys. This is the future whether we like it or not. Will any clubs get the gates and sponsorship to be successful without European money or outside investment? Its unlikely.
Hope this works out for Cork but the way the league is shaping up it is the preserve of the big money boys and everyone else will make up the numbers.

[nigel-harps1954]

You can get investment into a club without handing over the entire club.

German model of 50%+1 fan owned is the way forward. Once bitten, twice shy. Corks insistence on selling their club after their history is mental.

[culloty82]

Moreover, reading the Examiner article on the details today, FORAS don't even get a representative on the new board, which, in terms of oversight, one would have thought would have been part of the deal:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-41021414.html

[WeAreRovers]

No seat on the board would be a worry alright and I think the hybrid model as at Rovers is better from a fans POV but it's a simple fact that 100% fan-owned clubs are going to struggle in the coming years.

More and more investment coming into the League is undoubtedly a good thing but it would be naïve in the extreme to think that there won't be casualties - either with investors not being all they claim to be or with some big clubs without investment being unable to compete financially.

[Real ale Madrid]

You can get investment into a club without handing over the entire club.

German model of 50%+1 fan owned is the way forward. Once bitten, twice shy. Corks insistence on selling their club after their history is mental.

Mental on the face of it but the fact of the matter is running a football club in the league of Ireland is simply incredibly difficult. Its a feat in itself to survive 1 year let alone 14 or whatever it was.

I was against the move myself but I can understand it. The Board wanted to sell and the overwhelming majority of the shareholders were the same. For a myriad of reasons.

Only thing for it now is to let someone else run the show and hopefully FORAS can re-group and be ready in case its required again and hopefully in the meantime contribute in other ways - perhaps some badly needed infrastructure which was one of the main reasons for starting the trust in the first place.

[sbgawa]

Moreover, reading the Examiner article on the details today, FORAS don't even get a representative on the new board, which, in terms of oversight, one would have thought would have been part of the deal:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-41021414.html

Not giving Foras a seat on the board is poor IMO.
One seat on the board gives no power or influence as you will be out voted by the owner Directors on any issue they disagree with you on but to not even be allowed sit on the board implies the new guy doesnt really want them involved even in an oversight manner or advisory manner.

They cant have pushed awfully hard on this point as it would hav been a nothing give.