Republic of Ireland V Finland - Sunday, September 6th - 2020 - UEFA Nations League

[brine3]

think we roll the dice next month and if we don't qualify, then we completely bring through a new team getting rid of the likes of McClean, Brady, and Hendrick.

? We played much better against Bulgaria with Hendrick in midfield.

[pineapple stu]

When your best player is clearly your keeper it is never a good sign.
A 33-year-old keeper too. With no real backups available at all at present.

Randolph has another couple of years in him - if he wants of course - but we're running out of time for Travers/Kelleher/O'Hara/AN Other to break through. It's another headache if they fall down the leagues

[geysir]

Irelands best chance of a goal was Finland creating an Irish goal by playing out from the back, badly.

To do one of what Connolly did with his chances coming in from the left was unfortunate ~ ~ to do it twice ( though slightly differently ) is bordering on the wastefully careless.
And we had a few other good chances which were not converted. 3 forwards on the field over the 90 minutes and still we don't score goals. Most games end up being defined by Shane Duffy, whether he scores or misses.

[jbyrne]

I think there’s still a great chance of surprising people in the playoff game.

dont share the optimism sorry. we have scored a miserable amount of goals over the last two years and now we are conceeding very soft goals against weak enough teams. our players are underperforming and have been for a few years irrespective of who the manager is

[Bungle]

Could be a long couple of years ahead here for us. So, so many problems with that second half performance for me, could have lost 3-0 easily. When your best player is clearly your keeper it is never a good sign.

It's all good and well passing the ball over and back but we simply don't have midfielders that are going to create something out of nothing, so the only way we can play that kind of game plan with success is to bring a lot more urgency and drive to our play in order to open up chances. We did that for 10 minutes after half time and for a few minutes after the goal but otherwise it just wasn't there.

Individually there were some very poor performances. Stevens was posted missing on a few occasions at left back and seemed very hesitant on the ball, he seemed to overthink everything in possession rather than having any natural instinct for what to do. Let his man get away for the goal as well.

Idah looks to have been promoted ahead of time. He needs a season of first team football and some more time with the under 21s, who need him next month in any case, I wouldn't have him in the next senior squad.

O'Dowda is 1) not particularly good and 2) totally unsuited to playing alongside an attacking full back like Doherty, he was a waste of a jersey for almost an hour. We need a forward playing in that position to support the centre forward, particularly if the centre forward is McGoldrick, who drifts out of the box a lot.

McClean got on the ball seven or eight times when he came on and I think he found a teammate once, and it was from a throw in. As an impact sub the only impact he had was to give the ball away and put us under more pressure.

The game plan really needs us to take our chances when they come, because both games have shown us how susceptible we are to quick breaks from the opposition. Both goals conceded this week came from these kind of breaks and we could have conceded a few more tonight. At the same time we seem to have no interest in counter attacking ourselves and Kenny has said previously that it is not part of the game plan - this is worrying.

The worst thing is that I don't even think either Bulgaria or Finland are much good. Finland are better organised and have Pukki but I think they'll be eaten alive in that Euros group they're in to be honest. And they still could have beaten us 3-0 today and we could have had no complaints. I fear what a genuinely good team might do to us right now. Thankfully I don't think there are any outstanding teams either in our Nation's League group or playoff group, so we might be spared a drubbing for a while at least.

In terms of positives I thought Doherty came onto a game somewhat and Arter was lively to be fair. McGoldrick was good when introduced and has to start next month. Obviously Randolph had a great game.

It really does look like a long road ahead here, we're committed to changing the way we play and we have to stick with it and back the team and management. But I could see things getting worse before they get better to be honest.

Good post that. I agree that things could get better.

I actually could cope with an 18 or 19 year old giving in a poor performance because the likes of Idah, Molumby and Connolly might learn from it, but there is a strong cohort of that squad that never deliver for us.

Obviously we need to go all out next month, because even if I wouldn't be confident at all if we qualified of getting more than 1 point in the group, it would be lovely to see us at a major tournament playing in Dublin. If we don't and we get a cluster**** of a wc 2022 group as I think we will, I would love a clearing of the decks bar a few notable players.

[Nesta99]

Another disappointing performance against limited opposition. I actually thought Finland could feel aggrieved for not having won by more to be honest.

Pros
- Arter put the boot in and looked the pick in a disappointing midfield.
- McGoldrick improved the forward line when he came on.
- Randolph saved us from conceding a number of additional goals.

Cons
- O'Dowda offered nothing and cannot be a starter in the play-offs.
- Brady whilst tidy with the ball in midfield is a passenger we can't carry when we don't have the ball. He also fades very badly as the game wears on.
- Stevens makes the wrong pass far too often. Max Lowe could easily replace him in the Sheffield United team this season.
- Doherty looks a poorer option in this system than Coleman.
- For all his endeavour Connolly is a headless chicken with the ball and almost never makes the right decision in dangerous positions.
- Kenny needs to realise its no good loading the forward line with pace if you don't drill your players to move the ball forward quick enough to make use of it. Very laboured.
- It is going to be a long road ahead turning this team into the possession based football team Kenny is striving for.

I wouldnt disagree with much. In fear of having a SK bias as a Dundalk fan, he did get players of arguably a lesser standard to play as he wanted. Of course he had the players daily on the training pitch. But these lads will have undergone manager and system changes pretty often at club level, so its not a huge leap for them imo. It's 2 games and maybe a handful of days training so far, and a lot more contact hours are needed. That near term pain for longer term gain is very likely to happen. I just hope that patience is shown and that the managers credentials dont get chucked at him. Seeing incremental improvements may be needed to keep the position safe?

MO'N was given time with N.I. and I think more relevent is MMcC taking 8 or 9 games to get thing going, and getting to the level of 'what ifs' with some luck in a WC penalty shootout. I do believe we have a better group of young lads coming through than we have had for a while, probably since McCarthy's first spell. With the likes of Connolly, he has great potential, a work in progress and ye dont want that enigmatic trait coached out of him. There is huge expectation also. It could be a blessing in disguise that Parrott hasnt been able to play and so is protected somewhat from feeling like he has to instantly step up. If people think back to a young Robbie Keane, he was all over the place, frenetic, an uncontrolled ball of energy. It wasnt really until he spent time with the complete opposite in Berbatov at Spurs that he looked less manic and more composed. Even then he could miss a sitter ye score a scorcher.

We need to prepare for sitting out Euro 2020, and look to how our antiquated methods have seen us drift further and further off the pace especially when at finals. I want to qualify and again be a side that nobody wants to really draw. We could have stuck with the plucky Irish type performances, getting occasional good results but by and large be among the minnows in the draw. This is a chance to move forward and I think it is absolutely possible to do so!

I should have said that a player that could well be a big part of the puzzle is Jack Byrne!

[Bungle]

? We played much better against Bulgaria with Hendrick in midfield.

Yes he did but Bulgaria are no great shakes and secondly I would never rely on him in a game. He has attributes of a top player but like Brady, he is a highly unreliable player.

[mark12345]

Finland gifted us a couple of chances. Did we even create one for ourselves?

[backstothewall]

Really poor. Finland were good value for their win. Maybe looked a bit better when McGoldrick came on, but mainly because he was dropping deep to inject a bit of urgency into midfield.

They're obviously trying to pass the ball a bit more, which is a positive, but it was all very slow and predictable and at times I feel it crossed the line to passing for the sake of passing. In the absense of a player who can open an opposition up we may have to be a bit more pragmatic in the final third. Wales play the way I think we're trying to, but they have Bale to hang it all around.

But it was another cap for the young lads. None of them looked totally out of their depth.

[mark12345]

Agree with most of this. Two games and only two or three days on the training ground
It was obvious that Finland have had a much longer time together on this display. Very much a work in progress. And you are right, it was a game which was crying out for the creative skills of a Jack Byrne

[jbyrne]

Finland gifted us a couple of chances. Did we even create one for ourselves?

at least one anyway. robinsons one on one after finland scored prob the best. a few half chances too like robinsons cross that connolly should have connected with and mcgoldrick had a shot on goal which was well enough worked

[ifk101]

Collective failure really. Everything in slow motion. No urgency to get forward. Few options for players in possession. Very passive in defence. The pitch looked far too big for us.

[backstothewall]

I think the criticism of O'Dowda is very unfair. Nobody was great, but the work he did down the right in the move that ended with Arters shot was probably the best thing any of them did in the first half. The ball across the box was excellent and a more experienced striker than Idah would maybe have checked his run and got on to it.

[Bielsa´s irish]

midfield is a concern. we cant play 3 mids at this point. 3-4-3 is a balance formation. we can get the best out of players. we need Clark. as it seems..

-------------------randolph----------------------

coleman-----------egan-------------clark

doherty jimbo------arter-------stevens

brady----------mcgoldrick--------connolly

[Paddy Garcia]

We were fortunate not to concede 3 or 4.

It was the lack of urgency and unbelievably slow pace that surprised me. You can have as much possession as you want if it is playing it across the back 4 - won't worry anyone.

In a recent game Cullen was MOM for us I thnk. It was some of his creativity that was missing - yet did not even make the squad.

At least Arter showed some intent.

[Eirambler]

Who the hell is picking these man of the match awards - O'Dowda against Bulgaria and now Robbie Brady tonight? Randolph was our best player by a distance, our best outfield player was probably Arter. Brady wasn't by any means the worst but I fail to see how he could justifiably be MoM.

[Nesta99]

The game plan really needs us to take our chances when they come, because both games have shown us how susceptible we are to quick breaks from the opposition. Both goals conceded this week came from these kind of breaks and we could have conceded a few more tonight. At the same time we seem to have no interest in counter attacking ourselves and Kenny has said previously that it is not part of the game plan - this is worrying.


I think what SK was saying was that we wouldnt sit back and hit on the counter. His game plan is possession based and moving the ball forward at pace without a hail mary hoof, move breaks down then back it goes and build again. The quick ball out from the keeper and looking to work the ball forward at pace is or will be counter attacking. Making sure the players keep switched on at all times with quick throw ins, short quick frees even when its looks ideal for a set peice, short corners when everyone is expecting a ball for Duffy to play the odds. Staying on the front foot, probing with pacey runners hitting multiple channels, I can see the green shoots of already. Didnt happen tonight or v Bulgaria with great success but early doors. Imo its a mix of new ideas, its preseason for these lads, very unusual atmosphere. We lacked obvious experienced composure and creativity but if we had scored a groove would have been hit as Finland did after their goal. Yup Stevens in particular went awol. Maybe I am being too easy on the performances but I dont know what people expect over 180mins of a radical change in style and a few days of prep for that. I would also see these couple of games as 'trials' almost, experimenting as with friendly games that happen to be LoN games. Come the games in November there will be a collective being at the races. Even if that is simply as there will generally be club games under the belts.

[paul_oshea]

But Nesta there hasn't been a radical change in style that's the point. There's been worrying signs like being carved open straight down the middle and our CBs getting caught out but there's been nothing positive on the other side. We were slowing everything down. Corners , free kicks throw ins. Not sure what you were watching but I didn't see anything of what you're talking about

[shakermaker1982]

I don’t know enough about Kenny’s character but is he the kind of guy that will double down on the 433 or will he tweak straight away?

There is going to be a knee jerk reaction from the press/fans, that’s just the way the world works now (unfortunately) but I was just curious if people think he’ll make changes because the big game is only next month. I don’t think 433 suits the players that were in that squad panel. Maybe McGoldrick starting gives the formation a better chance of working because he does drop deep.

It’s crazy to think he’s under pressure already but I’ve already seen posts on Facebook/twitter saying he’s a fraud because he has never managed in the PL blah blah and Big Mick would have qualified with his eyes closed. The usual nonsense spouted after a bad result.

I know we all get excited when a young Irish player plays well at a good level but it does show that international football is a different level altogether. Its a huge step up and it’s going to take them 10 caps before they find their feet.

If we do continue to play this way then the tempo has to be increased considerably for it to have any chance to work. I know it’s still pre-season and not expecting them to go 100mph all the time but you cannot play 1st gear for large portions of the game.

[irishfan86]

Really hard to assess things this early in the tenure and considering our guys are in preseason, but one thing that is clear to me based on the two matches is that there’s no obvious solution or player that will fix everything. Many of our players have their weak points and there were very few players who emerged undroppable for Slovakia (Randolph the notable exception).

There’s a lot of condescension at times in here about certain players and how they would change everything. I think we saw here that McCarthy will need time to re-integrate, and the likes of Molumby and Connolly will need some more blooding before they’re the finished article.

Even the likes of Doherty, a clearly immensely talented player, needs to find his feet and groove in this system.

I fear Slovakia might come too soon for us, but hopefully a month of club football will put our players in a better position to succeed.

[youngirish]

But Nesta there hasn't been a radical change in style that's the point. There's been worrying signs like being carved open straight down the middle and our CBs getting caught out but there's been nothing positive on the other side. We were slowing everything down. Corners , free kicks throw ins. Not sure what you were watching but I didn't see anything of what you're talking about
There's noticeably much less hoofball than we have seen for the entirety of the previous three manager's reign. This is welcome. On the downside we don't seem to be able to pass accurately without slowing the pace of the game down which obviously will have a detrimental impact on our ability to create chances through the middle.

I just think we still have the same underlying issues that have plagued us since McCarthy's first tenure. A very, very average pool of players.

Until the youngsters are ready to raise the bar above that level we will struggle no matter who the manager is.

[Bielsa´s irish]

we need a system that suits the players. if doherty and stevens they excel as wingbacks, then make it work....working out a back 3 with wingbacks is not hard, because you end up defending with 5.

then work out the midfield, a 3 central mids line. 1 defensive holding mid like Busquets, and two "internos or interior midfielders on the sides box to box", then two attackers on the flanks and a number 9.

[RiffRaff]

I really want Kenny to succeed and he has to be given time. I wonder how the slow motion pace would have been accepted by a vocal crowd or if the fans would have made the players pick up the pace. I cant see anyway we will get past Slovakia

[seanfhear]

we need a system that suits the players. if doherty and stevens they excel as wingbacks, then make it work....working out a back 3 with wingbacks is not hard, because you end up defending with 5.

then work out the midfield, a 3 central mids line. 1 defensive holding mid like Busquets, and two "internos or interior midfielders on the sides box to box", then two attackers on the flanks and a number 9.
When you do not have a quality midfield perhaps playing and attacking with wingbacks is the way to go !

[Bielsa´s irish]

When you do not have a quality midfield perhaps playing and attacking with wingbacks is the way to go !

yeap! Furhermore we havent got time, two or 3 days and matchday. Is lunacy. We are Ireland we cant afford losing at home vs Finland, iceland, switzerland etc. Weve got to draw a line in the sand. Finland played 5 at the back!!

[seanfhear]

We are certainly lacking quality midfielders and have Three Wing Backs that can attack in that manner Doherty / Stevens and of Course Coleman.

[Bielsa´s irish]

Long on the bench. Really ? 0-1. McClean for a striker? It was McClean for Stevens. No Plan B. Really? Cillian Sheridan is better than Duffy as number 9. That Connor Ronan and Cullen maybe that Jack Byrne, Ryan Manning is a fellow i want as a left midfielder as well. The guy is on fire!

Stevens from what i saw i was convinced. Cover you have the german guy Derrick and Cunningham. Hoban is getting back, we have the players

[pineapple stu]

Hoban?!

[Bielsa´s irish]

Hoban?!

Tommie is getting back got injured 3 times at Watford now at Aberdeen

[Nesta99]

But Nesta there hasn't been a radical change in style that's the point. There's been worrying signs like being carved open straight down the middle and our CBs getting caught out but there's been nothing positive on the other side. We were slowing everything down. Corners , free kicks throw ins. Not sure what you were watching but I didn't see anything of what you're talking about

Oh I do think its a radical change in style, but yeah there are old weaknesses that have cropped up. I do think that Irish sides over the years have had an inferiority complex, especially against 'technical' sides. It's why we got that grit and spit, fight to the last - and got us results at times. But looking back to say that WC 94 side, it was a side that had it all - solid at centre half + the McGrath class, good wide players and set piece delivery possible, top ability strikers, raiding full backs, box to box midfielder, ball players and spoilers, and the ability in the squad to change things up if needed. 2002 was as close as we have gotten to a side that really believed in their own technical ability and had similarities to the 94 side. Since then we have had nothing but 'irish players can only play one way'. I'm sure it would be easy for SK to pick up lads that would declare for us and do a job and get us to a couple of finals every decade. This is embracing the 'not exclusively British' and that we can play with more technique ala our European opposition. There is no reason why Croatia couldnt have been our template in terms of resources and population. I thought Brian Kerr would have brought a new attitude but he was slow to change a team, didnt pick form players especially if young and fatally when we went ahead after dominating a game suddenly went to 5-4-1/4-5-1 etc in fear. Mick did the same occasionally. Kenny wont do this to a flaw! It is currently building formation and phases of play. We saw glimpses and they will become more apparent. The players may have been slowing things down but not as per the managers direction, just adapting to new stuff. Watching runners off the ball, there were times it was from training albeit the ball wasnt delivered. The slow ball possession across the defence and keeper was a building block. Randolph chipping a quick short ball in to touch showed the thinking if not execution, we got caught playing super deep but again trying to play it out without a hoof. I think all this will come together, maybe not in a spectacular way in November but with some time. I will call it now that I believe that we will beat Slovenia and that the entire performance will show more cohesion. Id be more worried about beating NI if it comes to pass. Though IB doesnt have the O'Neill touch.


I don’t know enough about Kenny’s character but is he the kind of guy that will double down on the 433 or will he tweak straight away?

There is going to be a knee jerk reaction from the press/fans, that’s just the way the world works now (unfortunately) but I was just curious if people think he’ll make changes because the big game is only next month. I don’t think 433 suits the players that were in that squad panel. Maybe McGoldrick starting gives the formation a better chance of working because he does drop deep.

It’s crazy to think he’s under pressure already but I’ve already seen posts on Facebook/twitter saying he’s a fraud because he has never managed in the PL blah blah and Big Mick would have qualified with his eyes closed. The usual nonsense spouted after a bad result.

I know we all get excited when a young Irish player plays well at a good level but it does show that international football is a different level altogether. Its a huge step up and it’s going to take them 10 caps before they find their feet.

If we do continue to play this way then the tempo has to be increased considerably for it to have any chance to work. I know it’s still pre-season and not expecting them to go 100mph all the time but you cannot play 1st gear for large portions of the game.

Yer spot on! But purely from watching SK in LoI he does not waiver away from his ummm philosophy. He will rarely if ever decide to go 442 or say go long ball. His teams play the same fron minute 1 to 90+ and often to good effect. Late goals are a feature of his sides, this seemed to be that playing a possession game and forcing opposition to press, eventually they broke rank in frustration or tired. This would be an area maybe that at international level discipline and fitness is top notch. But we have been on the recieving end (France Euro 16) where we were out of puff by 60 mins.

[tommy_c12000]

Obviously still very early days and clearly preseason, so no need to push the panic button. Plenty of young players emerging, let’s see what happens in the coming months. Long term project

[passinginterest]

I think Kenny said himself there was an element of experimentation about the see selection for the two games. It was an opportunity to give young players game time who might be breakout starts in the next few weeks and now will have international experience if he chooses to play them in the playoff game.

I think it was clear he'll have to chose players who are starting for their clubs if his system is going to work. It needs players to be fit and sharp to work properly. He's learned the limitations of Doherty in a back four, he's seen that Idah probably needs more time, but is an option if he burns it up in the next few weeks.

He's had time to work with the core squad and some fringe players and they'll be better prepared for what to expect in the next camp. It's not going to happen overnight, but I can't understand the levels of negativity all over the place. It's not like we were hammering teams in every international brake before? We were scraping draws and the odd win and we were embarrassed quite a few times. It's not like things could get that much worse.

[pineapple stu]

Tommie is getting back got injured 3 times at Watford now at Aberdeen
Ah, ok. I was thinking Pat Hoban, which is why I was a bit surprised.

[Bungle]

I really want Kenny to succeed and he has to be given time. I wonder how the slow motion pace would have been accepted by a vocal crowd or if the fans would have made the players pick up the pace. I cant see anyway we will get past Slovakia

Slovakia are a poor team. Bosnia are no great shakes. I think the North could do a number on them and they could beat either us or Slovakia at their place.

Bosnia have the best player, Slovakia have a few good individuals as we do and the North are the most organised of the four. There is nothing between the sides. I have no doubt at least one of the three games will be decided by penos.

[Bielsa´s irish]

Oh I do think its a radical change in style, but yeah there are old weaknesses that have cropped up. I do think that Irish sides over the years have had an inferiority complex, especially against 'technical' sides. It's why we got that grit and spit, fight to the last - and got us results at times. But looking back to say that WC 94 side, it was a side that had it all - solid at centre half + the McGrath class, good wide players and set piece delivery possible, top ability strikers, raiding full backs, box to box midfielder, ball players and spoilers, and the ability in the squad to change things up if needed. 2002 was as close as we have gotten to a side that really believed in their own technical ability and had similarities to the 94 side. Since then we have had nothing but 'irish players can only play one way'. I'm sure it would be easy for SK to pick up lads that would declare for us and do a job and get us to a couple of finals every decade. This is embracing the 'not exclusively British' and that we can play with more technique ala our European opposition. There is no reason why Croatia couldnt have been our template in terms of resources and population. I thought Brian Kerr would have brought a new attitude but he was slow to change a team, didnt pick form players especially if young and fatally when we went ahead after dominating a game suddenly went to 5-4-1/4-5-1 etc in fear. Mick did the same occasionally. Kenny wont do this to a flaw! It is currently building formation and phases of play. We saw glimpses and they will become more apparent. The players may have been slowing things down but not as per the managers direction, just adapting to new stuff. Watching runners off the ball, there were times it was from training albeit the ball wasnt delivered. The slow ball possession across the defence and keeper was a building block. Randolph chipping a quick short ball in to touch showed the thinking if not execution, we got caught playing super deep but again trying to play it out without a hoof. I think all this will come together, maybe not in a spectacular way in November but with some time. I will call it now that I believe that we will beat Slovenia and that the entire performance will show more cohesion. Id be more worried about beating NI if it comes to pass. Though IB doesnt have the O'Neill touch.



Yer spot on! But purely from watching SK in LoI he does not waiver away from his ummm philosophy. He will rarely if ever decide to go 442 or say go long ball. His teams play the same fron minute 1 to 90+ and often to good effect. Late goals are a feature of his sides, this seemed to be that playing a possession game and forcing opposition to press, eventually they broke rank in frustration or tired. This would be an area maybe that at international level discipline and fitness is top notch. But we have been on the recieving end (France Euro 16) where we were out of puff by 60 mins.
ok i love the intentions but we must get results, this is a result sport. It is ok to try new things, bring new guys etc. We cant bring a lot of kids at the same time if we need results. Or lets get us eliminated by Slovakia and then lets bring the next generation as Mick did in 96-2000. Regarding USA 94, jack charlton could have taken Jeff Kenna and Kenny Cunningham to that event. The problem with Charlton Trap etc was they took time from the youngsters

[tommy_c12000]

I disagree. Style of football is important to me, I was embarrassed at times with the style of our football over the past several years even though we got some results. I’m willing to endure a couple of years of hardship and at least try to transition to playing decent football....in the hope then results will follow

[geysir]

Ah, ok. I was thinking Pat Hoban, which is why I was a bit surprised.

Tommy Howe ban, Pat Who ban.

[Eminence Grise]

Few enough cheerleaders and a lot of doom and gloom merchants out these days. Did anybody really expect Kenny to have a magic wand that could turn us into Brazil overnight? It’s not that we have too many ordinary players – anybody pulling down a salary from a premiership club is better than ordinary - but that for far too long they’ve had their confidence ground into the dirt, forced to play puke football by a succession of managers who moaned about the quality available to them to hide their own shortcomings – cautious Kerr, inexperienced Stan, stuck in 1980’s catenaccio Trappatoni, guts over guile O’Neill.

I genuinely believe that we’re going through a cultural reset. Kenny is the first manager I can recall talking about building something resembling a philosophy of play, of breaking from the English game and creating an Irish brand of play. He’s started with a (fairly new to us) passing game with (in our DNA) put 'em under pressure pressing. Results are mixed. He’s had less than a week with players. We’re not going to see Duffy turn into Beckenbauer, but we might have a competent team of ball players in two years and in five years have a team where technique and composure are second nature.

He can’t ditch players overnight. We don’t have the depth. We do have too many players who are coasting because they weren’t challenged by previous managers, either with new blood or to become better players. Hendrick, definitely, McClean. And those like Brady and McCarthy who have lost a lot to injuries – maybe there are psychological niggles that accompany long-term injuries that armchair observers like us don’t realise? Squads are thin because we capped ageing journeymen rather than develop youth. Bringing in Idah, Connolly, Molumby, and more to follow, is the transition we need, provided they develop at club level. Not all will, but enough can. Playing a system consistently and purposively, so that every player who steps on the field knows their role is also part of resetting the culture.

And to any muppets (none here, but they’ve been mentioned elsewhere) that Kenny hasn’t played at a high enough level – just ask them how many topflight games did Mourinho play? Arsène Wenger played eleven games for Strasbourg.

There’s a process of change management that goes from unfreeze, through change to refreeze: right now we’re trying to thaw out the glacier accumulated over twenty years. Like it or lump it, it’s going to take a season to make change happen.

[tetsujin1979]

ok i love the intentions but we must get results, this is a result sport. It is ok to try new things, bring new guys etc. We cant bring a lot of kids at the same time if we need results. Or lets get us eliminated by Slovakia and then lets bring the next generation as Mick did in 96-2000. Regarding USA 94, jack charlton could have taken Jeff Kenna and Kenny Cunningham to that event. The problem with Charlton Trap etc was they took time from the youngsters
Kenna didn't make his international debut until a year after USA 94 and Cunningham didn't get his first cap until 1996, and had only played at Division 1 level until the World Cup. Neither were in contention for USA '94.

[Razors left peg]

Thought today was disappointing. I think we are missing a creative midfielder to add a bit of cleverness when we get near the box. The positive is that we had the larger percentage of possession again. We've hardly done that in years in one game never mind 2 in a row. We need to get better at using the possession though. Chances also change games. We had some great opportunities in 2nd half and we should have scored. They did too of course but in a tight game that will happen.

I think the squad will look very different this time next year. There are too many players we need to move on from. Does James McClean know he's supposed to pass to his own team and not the opposition? I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to replace Duffy for a more ball playing center half. If Masterson has a good season he could become an option there.

Hopefully Cullen can kick on this season, I was surprised he wasn't in squad but maybe Kenny was giving a chance to the more established midfielders and didn't want to wield the axe too hard yet. But none stood up like you would hope and I like the energy that Cullen brings and he's good on the ball. Big season for Molumby too, he's raw but has something.

I think above anything else we need to pray that Parrott is the real deal and is brilliant at Millwall. We desperately need a goal scorer whether we are creating loads or feeding off scraps. Connollys decision making is poor and Idah is going to be well behind Pukki in Norwich set up unless Pukki is sold. A good striker is vital to us.

[backstothewall]

I'm usually reluctant to blame formations but I do wonder if the 3/5 in midfield is causing a problem. It effectively means 1 man up front with no support. The Finns and Bulgarians had eyes and could see that Idah is still learning to shave. There was never any prospect of them any space in behind their defence for him to run in to. I suspect if we have played McGoldrick in his place they would have noticed he doesn't look likely to do them for pace, and they would have played a much higher line. In the absence of a midfielder in the mould of Liam Brady or Wes Hoolahan, which we simply don't have right now, we need to find a way to become more difficult to defend against.

[Stuttgart88]

Both games were crying out for a playmaker imho. Even in his brief time on the pitch yesterday McGoldrick’s clever football brain added something to our game when he dropped deep (though he did make a couple of infuriating bad decisions). So I think we must now look at 4-3-1-2 , 4-2-3-1 or even 3-4-1-2. We’ve debated 3 at the back before. We have the players. Nobody would be asked to fill a role that doesn’t suit him. My only concern is Coleman as right sided CB, but that concern is dwarfed by all my other concerns!

We have plenty of decent / competent footballers all playing at a high level. But none is a “leading actor” at his club really, they’re all a good cast of supporting actors. The only guys we have who you could say are crucial to their clubs and how they play are Doherty, Stevens, McGoldrick and maybe Coleman. Egan too maybe but at the end of the day he’s just a CB and good CBs are relatively plentiful. If any other of our players were injured for his club, none would really be missed. So let’s say these 4 are our key “alpha” players. Doherty & Stevens play week in / week out as wing backs. McGoldrick plays a weird 9 / false 9 / 10 hybrid. Does our flat 4-3-3 with winger types either side of a 9 suit any of those players? No, only Coleman.

Now, in fairness, rustiness and fitness at this stage of the season are certainly factors. We have often been rubbish in August only to be competitive in October & November. So I’m clinging to that. I’m only saying what I saw last night. Thursday’s best bits were much better than yesterday’s best bits and that to me means changing at least 2, if not all 3 of the midfield.

This isn’t any criticism of Kenny or his grander plans. As said above this is a cultural reboot that will take time and in all likelihood won’t really take hold until some more of the U21s come into the side in due course. But I think a quick fix might be to tweak the shape. I think Kenny is stuck on 4-3-3, so wont shift to 3 at the back, but 4-3-3 has various nuances too, and I’d say 4-3-1-2 / 4-2-3-1 are simply nuanced versions of 4-3-3, just relying on central creativity rather than attaching width.

[Eminence Grise]

We have plenty of decent / competent footballers all playing at a high level. But none is a “leading actor” at his club really, they’re all a good cast of supporting actors.

Good analogy.

I agree on tweaking 433. Have it as a default starting formation to create familiarity, but be able to shift the positions (or roles, maybe, is more accurate) as the play dictates.

[Stuttgart88]

I forgot to add that I don't think we can ignore Shane Long either. His ability to disrupt is still important. And SK's comments on Obafemi seenm to suggest he is quite firm on a forward 3. I can see Long and Robinson upfront, with McGoldrick just behind.

[John83]

we need a system that suits the players. if doherty and stevens they excel as wingbacks, then make it work....working out a back 3 with wingbacks is not hard, because you end up defending with 5.

then work out the midfield, a 3 central mids line. 1 defensive holding mid like Busquets, and two "internos or interior midfielders on the sides box to box", then two attackers on the flanks and a number 9.
Your proposed 3-5-3 formation would be very interesting, though I think we would struggle without a goalkeeper.

[John83]

I think Kenny said himself there was an element of experimentation about the see selection for the two games. It was an opportunity to give young players game time who might be breakout starts in the next few weeks and now will have international experience if he chooses to play them in the playoff game.
I think I'd be worried if there weren't gloom merchants on here calling for us to feed everyone who's ever played midfield for us to be feed into a woodchipper and the pulp used to nourish some teenagers who can't get a game in the Championship. It's the natural order when we lose, draw, and frequently when we win too.

[paul_oshea]

Its very hard to find reasoned points on here, people who are slightly more negative the last few days, are making far fair and valid points. This talk of playing like brazil/barcelona overnight as some stick to beat them and others with is just silly really. When the two games are looked at, the formational change, the system employed, the players used, you constructively criticise and analyse on those things.

Forget all the talk of playing great football or anything else, we have to look at what transpired and what positives we take or can take from that, some require assumptions based off it being so early in the season. At the end of the day I think the Finnish had 2 players playing in germany, the majority of players playing in the danish/scandanavian or own leagues. Our players are playing at a much higher level in general. Same as Bulgaria. Now the preseason feel and the talk of the Finnish and Bulgarian leagues being well into their season(10 or so games i think). Its like equating a LOI side playing in Europe when their season is a summer season and saying the likes of Tier 1 league not being able for them and struggling against them. It doesn't happen really. The big teams still get the wins. When you compare like for like our players are still massively under-performing and underwhelming.

Lets call a spade a spade here, they were two very poor performances, regardless of who you expected us to play like. Brazil or Georgia.

[paul_oshea]

Both games were crying out for a playmaker imho. Even in his brief time on the pitch yesterday McGoldrick’s clever football brain added something to our game when he dropped deep (though he did make a couple of infuriating bad decisions). So I think we must now look at 4-3-1-2 , 4-2-3-1 or even 3-4-1-2. We’ve debated 3 at the back before. We have the players. Nobody would be asked to fill a role that doesn’t suit him. My only concern is Coleman as right sided CB, but that concern is dwarfed by all my other concerns!

We have plenty of decent / competent footballers all playing at a high level. But none is a “leading actor” at his club really, they’re all a good cast of supporting actors. The only guys we have who you could say are crucial to their clubs and how they play are Doherty, Stevens, McGoldrick and maybe Coleman. Egan too maybe but at the end of the day he’s just a CB and good CBs are relatively plentiful. If any other of our players were injured for his club, none would really be missed. So let’s say these 4 are our key “alpha” players. Doherty & Stevens play week in / week out as wing backs. McGoldrick plays a weird 9 / false 9 / 10 hybrid. Does our flat 4-3-3 with winger types either side of a 9 suit any of those players? No, only Coleman.

Now, in fairness, rustiness and fitness at this stage of the season are certainly factors. We have often been rubbish in August only to be competitive in October & November. So I’m clinging to that. I’m only saying what I saw last night. Thursday’s best bits were much better than yesterday’s best bits and that to me means changing at least 2, if not all 3 of the midfield.

This isn’t any criticism of Kenny or his grander plans. As said above this is a cultural reboot that will take time and in all likelihood won’t really take hold until some more of the U21s come into the side in due course. But I think a quick fix might be to tweak the shape. I think Kenny is stuck on 4-3-3, so wont shift to 3 at the back, but 4-3-3 has various nuances too, and I’d say 4-3-1-2 / 4-2-3-1 are simply nuanced versions of 4-3-3, just relying on central creativity rather than attaching width.

I think we've had this discussion already, and someone has mentioned to me that by shoehorning COleman into the side in a 3-5-2 is not really getting out of coleman what we want him in the side for in the first place! And maybe this is what Kenny feels too, by going 3 at the back we are just making room for Coleman in a position that he is unfamiliar and we arent getting the best from him. Perhaps we can still play it with clark and egan either side of Duffy, but then we still havent accommodated Coleman. Which if that is his thinking, i have to say i am coming around to it - it doesnt mean i wouldnt like to see it used just once but against slovakia i dont think so. So lets assume that a variation of 4-3-3 is what we will be seeing from here on in. Kennys favoured approach is a leading strong and athletic centre forward who can hold up the ball if needed and bring others in, but doesnt really drop. At least thats what i remember from his Dundalk days. Playing MCG changes this, and i believe the 4-3-1-2 is what we then end up becoming, the problem is we have kind of always done this in a 4-4-2 but ended up with only 1 other in the box, and yesterday what we saw was a similar issue as the two wide players were staying wide, so in that formation we would need the wide players being much more narrow, or at least one of them being much more narrow like a 1-1 (mcg to centre). So I am not sure if kenny is fully aware or wants this, but i thought we looked better with both McG and Robinson on the pitch as they floated about more, if even sometimes getting too close to eachother. But i think with the players we have we need to go 4-3-1-2, whatever about 3-5-2.

One other thing that really annoyed me over the last 2 days was in the final third on the wings we would bunch 3 players over beside eachother where there was no room, yet trying to build from the back we wouldnt even have 1 support player. I dont know if this was a lack of communication or understanding, but we would end up slowing the ball down, then crossing it and theres no one really in the box, and no one running onto any loose balls coming out from the box. It also happened in Bulgaria, players didnt really seem to know where to be and just bunching in a narrow area of the side of the pitch.

[Stuttgart88]

This talk of playing like brazil/barcelona overnight as some stick to beat them and others with is just silly really. Who has been saying that?

[paul_oshea]

You thanked a post not too long ago with the exact team mentioned!

Youre nitpicking on everything now stutts, its getting tiresome. I think you need to drop it.

At least put a bit of effort into the general point. :rolleyes: