If Michael Collins had lived....

[OwlsFan]

...would

(a) Fine Gael be bigger than Fianna Fail ?

(b) Civil war have broken out with the Unionists up north? He only regarded partition as a temporary matter to get the Treaty signed and intended to resume the struggle in the northeastern counties.

(c) our economy have been as bad as it was for all those years bearing in mind he had a lot of business ideas ?

(d) De Valera never have achieved the power and status he did ?

Just read Tim Pat Coogan's biography (I know it's been around for years) of the man. Lots of info I never knew like Percival, the British General who surrendered Singapore to the Japs, was a major in Ireland during the troubles who tortured Irish prisoners. Field marshal Montgomery also told his troops not to worry about Irish civilian casualties during the troubles when he was also a low ranking officer.

[strangeirish]

Superb book and good research. Collins,IMO, was a mastermind. But the real scary part is if he had lived, we would all have a Cork accent!!!!!! :eek: :D

[OwlsFan]

..and be speaking Irish with a Cork accent.

[superfrank]

a.Fine Gael weren't around, Sinn Fein was the party
b.it would've ment war with UK
c.too hard to say
d.I hope to God that would be true!! :D

[Anto McC]

I'm going to be rude and not answer your questions,I just wanted to say thank God for gifting Ireland with his excellency ,Michael Collins

The best thing to ever come out of Cork.

[pete]

de Valera was one of the not so great things to happen to this country. Was like a 30 year time pause.

Michael Collins was Great Ever irishman.

[kevincronin2000]

before i read the thread i thought it should be moved to the portadown forum :D

[Réiteoir]

I'm going to be rude and not answer your questions,I just wanted to say thank God for gifting Ireland with his excellency ,Michael Collins

The best thing to ever come out of Cork.

That and the N8 :D

[Anto McC]

I think you lot are giving Dev a harder time than he deserves.

[superfrank]

I think you lot are giving Dev a harder time than he deserves.
I think he was behind Michael Collins' death. :mad:

And I think he gets alot more credit then he deserves.

[Anto McC]

I think he was behind Michael Collins' death. :mad:

And I think he gets alot more credit then he deserves.

He gets little or no credit as it is and it's not enough.

I also think he was behind Michael Collins but we will never know.

[superfrank]

He gets little or no credit as it is and it's not enough.
He's seen by alot of people in my grandparent's generation as the "saviour of Ireland" by making it a republic and being Taoiseach and President.

Fair play to him for doing all that, but I honestly believe there's something sinister about him. :rolleyes:

[GavinZac]

I honestly believe there's something sinister about him. :rolleyes:

of course there was, he was a conservative yankee :D

[dortie]

Had he lived feck all would have changed up here anyway.

[Anto McC]

Interesting.

On the other hand, I think Collins was in West Cork for the sole purpose of rooting out those who were willing to lay down their lives beside him only a few short years before. He had already trained British guns on his former comrades, an event often overlooked, and history shows that the executions only commenced a short time later...

Also an interesting point that as you said is overlooked but Where and what state would his Country be in without him

[Macy]

On the other hand, I think Collins was in West Cork for the sole purpose of rooting out those who were willing to lay down their lives beside him only a few short years before. He had already trained British guns on his former comrades, an event often overlooked, and history shows that the executions only commenced a short time later...
Who turned guns on who? Those that wouldn't accept the will of the people? Those that spoke of wading through blood of Irishmen?

Hard to say how history would've judged Collins had he lived, but doubt it would've cast Dev in any better light. Sure he couldn't manage it controlling a paper group brought with funds raised for Ireland....

[OwlsFan]

He gets little or no credit as it is and it's not enough.

I also think he was behind Michael Collins but we will never know.

No DeValera is quoted as trying to persuade them to call off the ambush. According to Tim Pat Coogan, DeValera liked power for the sake of power while Collins liked it to see what he could achieve with it.

When did Sein Fein go from being within the mainstream to outside it ? Arthur Griffiths, the founder of Sinn Fein, was one of the most pro-treaty people of the time.

Collins would never have fought alongside the UK in WW2 while the northeastern counties remained part of the UK.

[davey]

I think the make up of Northern Ireland might have been a little different.The main thing that persuaded Collins to sign the treaty was that Lloyd George promised a thorough boundary commission to look into the status of the 6 counties. Collins was led to believe that this would take vast chunks and be given to the Free State. He thought that the "rump state" that would be be left would prove to be untenable and a 32 County state would only be a matter of time after that. A little naive perhaps but theres no doubt he would not have stood for the cursory boundary commision of 24/5? that changed f*ck all.

Love the portrayal of Collins in Roddy Doyles "A Star called Henry" - a shadowy yet almost loveable rogue who inspired blind loyalty in his followers. Theres no doubt that he had more charisma in his little finger than Dev had in his whole body. Mind you the same could be said for Haughey :eek: :D

[Macy]

You might be generous. I don't know if he was 'persuaded' into signing the Treaty so much as bullied and hoodwinked into signing it after marathon talks with some extremely shrewd negotiators.
Sure Dev would've done so much better.... If he hadn't bottled going to the talks, great statesman that he was... :rolleyes:

[Frank Blue]

Sure Dev would've done so much better.... If he hadn't bottled going to the talks, great statesman that he was... :rolleyes:

Saw a program on that in the BBC (i think with Simon Shama) a few years back. Anyway, DeValera made sure he wasn't going to sign the partitioning of Ireland and left it to Collins, so he could take the rap for Ulster remaining outside of the FreeState. Dev stitched him up good and proper on this point, hence the falling out and Civil War to ensure DeValera's leadership.

[Frank Blue]

You should have written to the BBC and asked them to refrain from completely making up history. The suggestion that de Valera fought a civil war to ensure his leadership suggests they had a limited grasp on historical accuracy...

Sorry. The only part i can fully remember from the BBC was the signing of the treaty and the reasons Collins did and not DeValera. Which led to the falling out.
If you can explain the reasons for the Civil War to me in greater depth, please do.

[Colm55]

Sorry. The only part i can fully remember from the BBC was the signing of the treaty and the reasons Collins did and not DeValera. Which led to the falling out.
If you can explain the reasons for the Civil War to me in greater depth, please do.

Imo the reasons are fairly straight forward, on one side was Dev who opposed the signing and ratification of the treaty and the other was Collins who obviously signed the treaty and stood by it for his part, and basically a civil war began as a result of the opposing sides. Both sides had their reasons for going to war, Anti-treaty saying it bars the way to a republic, gives up the north etc, the pro treaty arguing that it was a stepping stone to achieving the republic. Sparks flew and it all started .. hope this helps

[Frank Blue]

Imo the reasons are fairly straight forward, on one side was Dev who opposed the signing and ratification of the treaty and the other was Collins who obviously signed the treaty and stood by it for his part, and basically a civil war began as a result of the opposing sides. Both sides had their reasons for going to war, Anti-treaty saying it bars the way to a republic, gives up the north etc, the pro treaty arguing that it was a stepping stone to achieving the republic. Sparks flew and it all started .. hope this helps

The way this history program explained it, DeV knew it was as good as it could get, but because of the potential (and actual) fallout, could not bring himself to sign such a document, so sent Collins instead, making him look the bad guy. So maybe my statement earlier wasn't wrong afterall.

[Macy]

Anti-treaty saying it bars the way to a republic, gives up the north etc, the pro treaty arguing that it was a stepping stone to achieving the republic. Sparks flew and it all started .. hope this helps
The anti treaty side refused to accept the will of the people and started the Civil War. People should forget about the North in this discussion - the main issue initially wasn't the 6 counties at all, but the Oath of Allegiance. Dev didn't give a fook about the North.

Dev should've gone to London. He didn't, as he knew what was the best they could expect, which is what Collins et al got. Regardless of your opinions on the treaty, I fail to see how anyone could admire a "leader" who so blatantly shirked his responsibilities when it really mattered.

[Colm55]

but the Oath of Allegiance. .

Somehow managed to leave this out, thanks for reminding me !!

[Malby]

The way this history program explained it, DeV knew it was as good as it could get, but because of the potential (and actual) fallout, could not bring himself to sign such a document, so sent Collins instead, making him look the bad guy. So maybe my statement earlier wasn't wrong afterall.
No it wasn't Frank.

[Macy]

Somehow managed to leave this out, thanks for reminding me !!
Yeah, but drop the "giving up the north" bit. That wasn't the reason why Dev and the anti treaty leaders were against the treaty. I'd have more sympathy for their point of view if the North was the issue.

[strangeirish]

The sad part, IMO, was that when I was going to school there was hardly a peep in our history books about Collins and his influence on the history of our Country. Has that changed now? Any inter/leaving cert students out there?

[stojkovic]

The sad part, IMO, was that when I was going to school there was hardly a peep in our history books about Collins and his influence on the history of our Country. Has that changed now? Any inter/leaving cert students out there?
Likewise with me.
Isnt it also amazing how 'celebrate' 1916 (a failure) and we don't celebrate the War of Independence (1921).
Is this where we get 'moral victories' from ?

We also forget the part that Irish Protestants and English Catholics played in us achieving independence - people like Wolfe Tone, Erskine Childers, Roger Casement etc. But thats for another day to educate to masses.

[strangeirish]

I wonder if the Irish Press was responsible for printing those history books back then ;)

[superfrank]

I did the junior cert last year and there was a little bit about the War of Independence and the Civil War crammed into the same chapter.

However, there were numerous chapters on DeValera, the early government, Fianna Fail, etc. :mad: It's obvious people are never going to forget him and he'll always be thought of as an iconic figure but many people seem to think of Collins as a villain and that he took away from what DeValera "achieved". They've obviously never seen the film......

[strangeirish]

Like any film it can only go so deep. If you want good insight into that era, might I suggest Tim Pat Coogan's books on both Collins and Dev. Very indepth and a great lesson for that part of Irish history.

[superfrank]

I will look at them both, cheers. But it really p!sses me off the way people act as if DeValera was a saint and Collins was an anti-Christ.

[Anto McC]

In my opinion General Michael Collins is the greatest Irishman ever,but i also have a lot of respect for DeVelera but from mainly after the civil war.I think the question must also be asked,how long would we have lasted fighting against Britian if Michael Collins didn't sign the treaty and Britian decided to continue the war with us.

[strangeirish]

I think the question must also be asked,how long would we have lasted fighting against Britian if Michael Collins didn't sign the treaty and Britian decided to continue the war with us.

We would not have lasted a week. Guns and ammo were about gone and Collins was now out in the open, thanks to deV.

[Anto McC]

We would not have lasted a week. Guns and ammo were about gone and Collins was now out in the open, thanks to deV.

I glad somebody replyed,as that is the point i was making.In the proverbal sense "his hands were tied"

[Frank Blue]

In my opinion General Michael Collins is the greatest Irishman ever,but i also have a lot of respect for DeVelera but from mainly after the civil war.I think the question must also be asked,how long would we have lasted fighting against Britian if Michael Collins didn't sign the treaty and Britian decided to continue the war with us.

Does this matter? Independence was coming sooner or later. The Liberals, going back to Gladstone had been supporting Irish Home Rule for years - only got defeated by the House of Lords, the Commons had passed it on a few occasions.
And look at how things panned out for Britain afterwards: the war with Germany and the collapse of the Empire. Writing was on the wall IMO.

[Macy]

But late at night against an inexperienced and weak negotiating team that was divided, it was a masterstroke.
Sure that's why the experienced politicians that had been talking a good fight in America should've gone to negogiate. Any criticism of the negogtiations reflects more badly on the anti treaty side who sent that team, against their wishes, than those that went.

btw Where does this myth that the IRA were against the treaty come from? The IRA was no different from the rest, in being split.

[Frank Blue]

It was on the Inter Cert history syllabus!

Do you believe everything that gets taught in history? There are always more than 1 side to a story, just that usually the percieved victor tends to write it, or gain the upper hand over time.

[Macy]

It was on the Inter Cert history syllabus!
Must be true then. :rolleyes:

[OwlsFan]

And the founder of Sinn Fein, Arthur Griffiths, was one of the most pro-Treaty men. Funny how the wheel has gone full circle.

DeValera was jealous of Collins. He reckoned the best way to put him down was to send him to the UK to try and negotiate the unnegotiable (i.e. a Republic) and he would then come back a failure. However, when Collins signed the Treaty because he knew this was the best they'd get and the IRA was on its knees, DeValera (who has spent most of the Troubles out of harms way in the USA) couldn't accept it because he'd have to play second fiddle to Collins. Now, there probably would have been a civil war even without Dev but he bears most of the blame and his motives were mostly personal rather than political - although obviously he did believe the terms weren't acceptable.

[superfrank]

Just for the record, it wasn't Dev that was in charge when we becam a republic in '48 or '49, it was Fine Gael.

[Pat O' Banton]

Where to start, 'War of Independence'? was that independence that partitioned the country, and got elected Irish representives to swear an oath of allegence, in fact terms little better then Home Rule, which would have come into force regardless of the Anglo Irish War. The war was a success pretty much on the basis that the as a nation we didn't get our arses kicked for the first time and forced Britain to the negotiating table. The reason that 1916 is so highly regarded is that it brought out an untapped well of nationalism that lead to the Anglo Irish War an brought about an identifable modern day Irish constitution (the Proclamation) along with modern day identifiable historical and heroical figures.

As for the original point, while undoubtedly Collins was a genius in the art of guarilla warfare and counter espionage, question marks over his political nouse have to be asked, firstly it has been pretty much agreed that Lloyd George forced him to sign the treaty and DeV got him to go to go to sign it. Hardly the sign of a political heavy weight. Further to put so much weight on the findings of the boarder commission, who believed that once the Occupied state had its fullest secure boarders that they would ever give up one inch of it?

Finally TPC's The IRA and actually virtually every other book about the civil war states that the vast majority of the army sided with the anti treaty forces. As mum always asks a nation that had no guns, weaponary or cash managed to raise arm, train and full time army, where did the cash come from?

[Pat O' Banton]

Also it probably doesn't do Ireland as a nation a lot of good dwelling on the what ifs of history, historical figures tend to lose their romance as they get older and the whiff of cordite moves further away so we will never know and never know what course of action that Collins would have taken if leader, he may have become a whipping boy to DeV, he may have become leader and made Ireland an economic stagnant pond like DeV we can't know and dwelling on it as Ireland has done for so long is hardly the sign of a healthy nation.

[Pat O' Banton]

And the founder of Sinn Fein, Arthur Griffiths, was one of the most pro-Treaty men. Funny how the wheel has gone full circle.



Well not really, Griffith was never really a Republican, he believed that Ireland should have its own seperate parliament but within a dual Monarchy system (as with Austria Hungery) meaning in effect that Ireland would still be with in the bounds of the empire.

However what you do see with the Civil War was the almost enevitable clash between violent Repuplicanism on one hand and consitutional Nationalism on the other, throughout the late 18th and 19th century one or the other had the upper hand in Irish poltics and on occasions - such as the land wars they joined however effectively they could never co exist. Constutional Nationalism of Parnell and O' Connell stopped short of what violent nationalism demanded so when they were given effectively the half measure and let get on with it there was perhaps only one outcome - even if home rule had been granted earlier it is likely that there would still have been a rebellion against Ireland within the empire (although now I realise that I'm speculating as I was railing against above)

[Speranza]

I disagree about the glory of 1916. Why aren't the risings of 1798, 1803 and the other sporadic ones during the ninetinth centruy thought of in the same way that '16 was. They all left a legacy of nationalism. Is it because what some percieve as victory (clearly not me) followed soon after it?

Collins hands were very much tied. During my A LEVEL history we were told of Collins saying during the treaty negotiations soemthing to the ffect of "When we were told of a truce we thought you were insane, we couldn't have held out for more than few more weeks". He was by no means a politican and de Valera knew it but he didn't have the balls to sign what he knew would be an unacceptable agreement.

Collins living would have made little difference to the permenant partition that was inevitable by 1920's

[Pat O' Banton]

I disagree about the glory of 1916. Why aren't the risings of 1798, 1803 and the other sporadic ones during the ninetinth centruy thought of in the same way that '16 was. They all left a legacy of nationalism. Is it because what some percieve as victory (clearly not me) followed soon after it?



As I said they were modern day heroes, also maybe a bit harsh on them and their place in history is also down to the fact that was followed shortly by Ireland's own parliament, I agree that the eventual result moved Ireland on very little more then it would have anyway 'Home Rule and the Treaty being similar documents.
But as I said we can identify with it because it gives Ireland the Proclamation, we have photograpghs of the event, even the odd bit of cinefilm, it comes to life easier. In a world domenated by the visual it brings history to us bit bit more then '98, '03 '48 or 67. Its perhaps not the entire reason but I do believe it accounts for some of it.