Overlooked players

[Fixer82]

What players were criminally overlooked for Ireland?
Players who got little or no caps, not through injury but due to the manager not fancying them.

Andy Reid and Hoolahan are obvious ones to have been ignored for long periods of time but both got more than a handful.

Off the top of my head, Rory Delap stands out as a player who was consistently ignored despite being a consistent performer in EPL. And one with a magic throw-in too.
I remember him scoring a brace against Arsenal, including an overhead bicycle kick iirc and being snubbed for international call up three days later.

[seanfhear]

I was going to say Rory Delap myself even before i got to him in your post. Look what Iceland did with those type of Throw Ins !

If Rory had been around in Jack Charlton's time I’d say Rory would have a lot of Caps if even just off the bench !

I certainly would have in the squad and at least on the bench much more than he was !

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, Delap was always a strange one. We've rarely been in a position where we could overlook Premier League regulars.

Graham Kavanagh was a good grafter, but he was maybe more unlucky in that he was competing against Keane, Kinsella and Holland in centre-mid.

Dave O'Leary of course!

I don't think we've had too many though. Scotland, by comparison, seem to have loads for some reason. Alan Hansen, Brian McClair, John Wark, Pat Nevin, Steve Archibald, Lou Macari, Alan Gilzean, Ian St John, Pat Crerand, Gary Gillespie, Graeme Sharp, Alan McInally, Duncan Ferguson - none got more than 30 caps, and most got a good few less. Archibald got 27 caps but spent three years at Barcelona. Crerand got 16 caps but played in the 1968 European Cup final. McInally spent four years at Bayern but only got 8 caps. I think our efforts will pale in comparison with the Scots!

[irishfan86]

Doherty the best contemporary example, but I suspect that’s about to change.

I thought Keiren Westwood should have got a lot more caps — I appreciate there were injury and perhaps attitude/commitment issues but he was the natural heir to Shay, no disrespect to David Forde.

[pineapple stu]

Always tough for keepers I guess, but yeah, with a lot more friendlies these days, there should be scope for more experimenting

[seanfhear]

Yeah, Delap was always a strange one. We've rarely been in a position where we could overlook Premier League regulars.

Graham Kavanagh was a good grafter, but he was maybe more unlucky in that he was competing against Keane, Kinsella and Holland in centre-mid.

Dave O'Leary of course!

I don't think we've had too many though. Scotland, by comparison, seem to have loads for some reason. Alan Hansen, Brian McClair, John Wark, Pat Nevin, Steve Archibald, Lou Macari, Alan Gilzean, Ian St John, Pat Crerand, Gary Gillespie, Graeme Sharp, Alan McInally, Duncan Ferguson - none got more than 30 caps, and most got a good few less. Archibald got 27 caps but spent three years at Barcelona. Crerand got 16 caps but played in the 1968 European Cup final. McInally spent four years at Bayern but only got 8 caps. I think our efforts will pale in comparison with the Scots!
I think the Alan Hansen was Liverpool doing a Man Utd before Man Utd did it. Did Hansen actually make himself available for Scotland all that much ? ?

Archibald , again was he making himself available for Scotland during a lot of that time ?

Alan McInally got a serious injury and that may have affected him making himself available. He looked some Prospect before it all went Pete Tong.

Ian Durrant of Rangers is another one. This one is probably entirely through Injury.

For a Small Country like Scotland to lose two such prospects at such an early age to injury was particularly Bad Luck ! !

It goes to show the quality of players Scotland had in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s maybe a bit into the 90’s that a lot of the time there was no big Hurrah about some of them not playing for Scotland. Scotland had replacements not that far behind them !

Kenny Daglish did play quite a lot for Scotland but did not do all that much for Scotland (if I recall correctly ). I wonder was he under instructions from Liverpool or self instructed not to get injured playing for Scotland ! !

[pineapple stu]

I've no idea why those got so few caps. It could be as you say, just not making themselves available. I'd be interested to know more. It's a heck of a lot of players to lose.

McInally had injuries, true, but 8 caps is nothing for a guy at Bayern. .

Archibald won the league with Aberdeen without being capped. Then all his caps were in a six-year spell at Spurs and Barca. Was still a Barca player when his international career ended.

Dalglish is Scotland's top scorer, so harsh to accuse him of slouching I think. :)

[seanfhear]

I've no idea why those got so few caps. It could be as you say, just not making themselves available. McInally had injuries, true, but 8 caps is nothing for a guy at Bayern. It's a heck of a lot of players to lose though.

Dalglish is Scotland's top scorer, so harsh to accuse him of slouching I think. :)
30 goals in 102 caps. I just don’t ever remember seeing him playing that well for Scotland. Probably would only have seen him at World Cups. If I recall it was not considered that he had played that well for Scotland. Maybe the expectation was too high !

[pineapple stu]

Just looking into the Hansen thing there - suggestions that Ferguson preferred his Aberdeen centre-back pairing at international level too (McLeish and Miller), so didn't want Hansen breaking that up.

Hansen was left out of the Scotland squad for 86 - when he was Liverpool's player of the year as they won the double - and Dalglish pulled out, maybe in protest.

Suggestions also that Hansen was prone to missing friendlies, and that the Scots preferred domestic-based players to an extent (and the SPL was a good league back then of course)

So all sorts of interesting stories - but it does seem like Scotland have shot themselves in the foot a number of times in the past with regards player selections. I don't think we've anyone really to compete with that (thankfully)

[RiffRaff]

We had a few players over the years who played regularly or semi regularly in the english top flight without getting any caps - John Coady, Tommy Gaynor, Paul McGee, Derek Geary are a couple that spring to mind. Alan Campbell was very unfortunate the season he scored a lot of goals in Spain.

[Diggs246]

Matt Doherty is 28 with only 9 caps

[seanfhear]

Matt Doherty is 28 with only 9 caps
Considering the quality of his play the last few years that seems crazy ! !

He must not have convinced Martin O’Neill and Roy Keane that he saw “ How great they Were ! "

[elatedscum]

Stephen McPhail only got 10 caps. Always thought he should have had a lot more... Earned his last cap at age 24...

[pineapple stu]

Was McPhail overlooked or did he just never reach his potential?

Spent most of his career outside the Premier League with Barnsley and Cardiff. When Cardiff were promoted, they released McPhail.

[seanfhear]

Was McPhail overlooked or did he just never reach his potential?

Spent most of his career outside the Premier League with Barnsley and Cardiff. When Cardiff were promoted, they released McPhail.
He was one who had a very promising early career but he never lived up to that. Was it injury / something else ?

[Fixer82]

Horgan certainly deserves more caps too I feel. He never played badly in a green shirt.

[Eminence Grise]

Always felt McPhail was more suited to a continental game than English, and could have played more games abroad. Illness cost him game time, of course.

Others...

Gary Kelly (GK). Made the bench several times but never a minute of senior action.

John Anderson and Ashley Grimes didn't really see many squads after Charlton took over and both ended up with under 20 caps.

Mike Milligan - one cap wonder despite playing in the top two divisions for most of his career.

Lots of others shone briefly - Jason Gavin, Michael Reddy, Lee Power (good call on Tommy Gaynor and Derek Geary, RiffRaff) - and a few were tried and discarded pretty quickly - Ken de Mange, Liam Daish, Jon Macken, Alan Moore, Thomas Butler, Alan Mahon. Less overlooked, I suppose, than didn't take their chance.

<Edit> Could add Brian Carey to that list - capped while a Man Utd reserve before a tumble down the divisions.

[John83]

He was one who had a very promising early career but he never lived up to that. Was it injury / something else ?
He was perceived as a very technically gifted passer, but not really physically up to the challenges of central midfield. I don't know how fair that was, but it's likely he needed the right environment to make it (3 central midfielders weren't as common then), and he never found it.

[Charlie Darwin]

We had a few players over the years who played regularly or semi regularly in the english top flight without getting any caps - John Coady, Tommy Gaynor, Paul McGee, Derek Geary are a couple that spring to mind. Alan Campbell was very unfortunate the season he scored a lot of goals in Spain.
I think Stephen Quinn played in the same team as Geary without getting a cap, and only got one a few years later when he made the step up again.

[elatedscum]

Re McPhail

He was very technically gifted, his performances for Ireland were good. I remember a friendly against Finland which was as good a Irish midfield display as I’ve ever seen. Obviously opposition and importance of game reduce how you’d rate it but he was superb.

He grew up in an upper premier league environment. He went down two divisions to play regular football but it was a totally different game and he had to adapt to an environment where no one else was playing football and he was getting lumps kicked out of him. He did adapt but it took about a year.

But he was one of the best midfielders in the championship for a few years and he captained an upper championship side. Eventually he got ill, I think, lymphoma - which was a career altering illness and led to him being released by Cardiff when they were promoted to the premier league.

It’s often the case that good players get forgotten in the championship, or at least it was in the olden days when highlights were harder to come by. Wes only got into the irish team cause the public saw him on MOTD. Matt Doherty too - he was cracking in the championship for years but there’s far less eyes on you.

Anyway, there were plenty of players much less talented than him who were part of the set-up.

It’s also true he never reached his potential. He’s probably someone who could have blossomed had he played for that Reading side under Coppell or someone like that...

[tetsujin1979]

On Doherty, he did spend a few years out of the Premier League, while Coleman was playing regularly for Everton, and one of the senior team's most consistent players, so Doherty has a lot less caps than you might expect for a player with his ability.
Should be have more? Of course, but realistically how much more?

[irishfan86]

On Doherty, he did spend a few years out of the Premier League, while Coleman was playing regularly for Everton, and one of the senior team's most consistent players, so Doherty has a lot less caps than you might expect for a player with his ability.
Should be have more? Of course, but realistically how much more?

IMO about 10-15 more. At a certain point it became comical that O’Neill persisted with Christie as understudy. I don’t think up until recently people were calling for Doherty to potentially replace Coleman at right fullback but for him to be No. 3 — especially once he really started showing his quality at PL level with Wolves, looked more like stubbornness from O’Neill more than anything else.

I think Doherty going public with some of his frustrations put O’Neill off.

[elatedscum]

IMO about 10-15 more. At a certain point it became comical that O’Neill persisted with Christie as understudy. I don’t think up until recently people were calling for Doherty to potentially replace Coleman at right fullback but for him to be No. 3 — especially once he really started showing his quality at PL level with Wolves, looked more like stubbornness from O’Neill more than anything else.

I think Doherty going public with some of his frustrations put O’Neill off.

In fairness, he also played almost 2 seasons at left-back while in the championship. and he won Wolves' player of the year playing in that position. He was definitely an alternative to Stephen Ward, as well as being a back-up to Seamie...

[ColourfulPeanut]

IMO about 10-15 more. At a certain point it became comical that O’Neill persisted with Christie as understudy. I don’t think up until recently people were calling for Doherty to potentially replace Coleman at right fullback but for him to be No. 3 — especially once he really started showing his quality at PL level with Wolves, looked more like stubbornness from O’Neill more than anything else.

I think Doherty going public with some of his frustrations put O’Neill off.
Sure he played Christie in midfield to apparently support/protect "young" Doherty in his first start against Denmark. Which is an hilarious and bizarre thought.

[John83]

Sure he played Christie in midfield to apparently support/protect "young" Doherty in his first start against Denmark. Which is an hilarious and bizarre thought.
Did he say that? Given how easily Denmark has torn us apart before, a defensively minded selection may not have been specifically about Doherty.

[Nesta99]

McPhail had two bouts of illness that hampered his career, NH Lymphoma and a non related immune disorder where the body stops producing tears and saliva among others so ye can imagine how uncomfortable it was to play when he was able. He also had chronic joint pain likely from the NHL treatment but played through the pain. He was very good considering but what a player he could have been with some luck.

[seanfhear]

McPhail had two bouts of illness that hampered his career, NH Lymphoma and a non related immune disorder where the body stops producing tears and saliva among others so ye can imagine how uncomfortable it was to play when he was able. He also had chronic joint pain likely from the NHL treatment but played through the pain. He was very good considering but what a player he could have been with some luck.
Very interesting. Hard to get all that through to the General Public.

[Eirambler]

The Delap one is just bizarre looking back at it. Given the type of football we played for most of the last 20 years he should have been the perfect player for us. Not to mention a great man to have in a tournament finals squad because he was so versatile. Instead he hardly got a look in. 359 premier league appearances and only 11 caps is incredible.

Jeff Kenna is possibly another who should have won more, 290 premier league appearances and only 27 caps for Ireland.

Andy O'Brien maybe another - 280 games in the EPL but only 26 caps - we were well stocked at centre back though.

Damien Delaney had a similar problem being a centre back - 138 premier League games and over 300 more in the championship - won just 9 caps. Only made his competitive debut at 32.

[eitoof]

Gary Kelly, the goalkeeper version. Always thought he should have got a cap.

[livehead1]

The Delap one is just bizarre looking back at it. Given the type of football we played for most of the last 20 years he should have been the perfect player for us. Not to mention a great man to have in a tournament finals squad because he was so versatile. Instead he hardly got a look in. 359 premier league appearances and only 11 caps is incredible.

Jeff Kenna is possibly another who should have won more, 290 premier league appearances and only 27 caps for Ireland.

Andy O'Brien maybe another - 280 games in the EPL but only 26 caps - we were well stocked at centre back though.

Damien Delaney had a similar problem being a centre back - 138 premier League games and over 300 more in the championship - won just 9 caps. Only made his competitive debut at 32.

Didn't O'Neill say Delaney was old enough to be a manager then he was still playing regular in the prem?

[seanfhear]

All things considered tis funny how Northern Ireland ended up with the Right O’Neill and we ended up with the Wrong O’Neill ! !

[Fixer82]

All things considered tis funny how Northern Ireland ended up with the Right O’Neill and we ended up with the Wrong O’Neill ! !

I wasn't thinking that when we beat Germany, Italy, Bosnia, Austria, Wales...went one up against a great French team in a major tournament, drew away to Germany.

O'Neill had a great time with us until the last couple of years, when it all fell apart. Let's remember the good times.

[jbyrne]

Jeff Kenna is possibly another who should have won more, 290 premier league appearances and only 27 caps for Ireland.


jeff kenna was around when we had so many full back options. he was one of 4 full backs (phelan, irwin and gary kelly being the other 3) who took to the field against holland in 95

[seanfhear]

I wasn't thinking that when we beat Germany, Italy, Bosnia, Austria, Wales...went one up against a great French team in a major tournament, drew away to Germany.

O'Neill had a great time with us until the last couple of years, when it all fell apart. Let's remember the good times.
We still ended up with the wrong O’Neill. The O’Neill that was past it and well finished.

Michael O’Neill is the O’Neill Now ! !

[Fixer82]

We still ended up with the wrong O’Neill. The O’Neill that was past it and well finished.

Michael O’Neill is the O’Neill Now ! !

Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda.
He could've been a disaster for us, or he could've been brilliant. We'll never know so who cares?

[tetsujin1979]

Michael O'Neill wouldn't have lasted in charge of the republic with the same record he had with the north - 18 months until his first win, more than a year after that until his second, losses to Azerbaijan and Luxembourg.

[seanfhear]

Michael O’Neill is by far the Better Manager Now !

[Fixer82]

Sean Williams has become Player/Coach at Milwall.

Definitely a player I felt deserved more caps. Played very well for us in the couple of caps he got and for me looked better than Declan Rice at that time in the green jersey.

[elatedscum]

Sean Williams has become Player/Coach at Milwall.

Definitely a player I felt deserved more caps. Played very well for us in the couple of caps he got and for me looked better than Declan Rice at that time in the green jersey.

Wouldn't go quite that far re Rice but he was very good in his limited time he had in the green shirt.

[Olé Olé]

Williams is a funny one in that he made his debut in 2018 at 31 after a good season in League One. Two decent seasons at Championship level have gone by now without many extra caps but we have seen someone like Hourihane push up levels from Barnsley to Villa etc.

Maybe if he had been playing more Championship football than he did before 2018 during his time in England, he could have established himself. It all just felt as though he was swimming against the tide playing decent for Millwall in the Championship with little international experience at the age of 31 and 32.

I know this is an easy line to trot out when a player isn't incredibly physical like Williams, but he struck me as a guy who could have been really good abroad. He has a little bit of energy and good passing that compliment an ability to play through the lines in the middle third from a deep position. I think if he had gone abroad when he was scoring goals at centre half and centre midfield for MK Dons in League One then he could have carved out many more caps than he did. All very hypothetical I know but the France game demonstrated that.

He'll be a good coach though.

[Fixer82]

He did a job for Ireland that reminded me of Roy Keane a bit in that he played simple and accurate passes and never lost the ball. Kept possession and kept ball moving.
I remember another Irish player years ago being similar in a couple of friendlies and never being seen again.
Was it Barry Quinn maybe?

[dr_peepee]

Johnathon Douglas??

[Bielsa´s irish]

Curtis Fleming. Rory Delap. Alan Quinn. Derek Geary. Joey O'Brien. Jeff Kenna and Alan Moore in USA 1994. Rory Delap Mark Kennedy in 2002. Anthony Stokes, Seamus Coleman and Hoolahan, Pilkington in euro 2012. damian delaney euro 16.

but the biggest was LIAM BRADY IN ITALY 1990

[tetsujin1979]

Knock off the random capitals. We get it, you're starved for attention on YBIG, so you're trying the same routine here. It was funny for about ten minutes in 2011, so move on.

[Bielsa´s irish]

Knock off the random capitals. We get it, you're starved for attention on YBIG, so you're trying the same routine here. It was funny for about ten minutes in 2011, so move on.je

je comprends tout monsieur le flic Javert. Je ne suis pas le scoundrel.
cheers

[Kingdom]

Was McPhail overlooked or did he just never reach his potential?

Spent most of his career outside the Premier League with Barnsley and Cardiff. When Cardiff were promoted, they released McPhail.

I'll put my hand in the air, I just didn't get the fuss over McPhail, really didn't. The above sums it up perfectly.

[Fixer82]

Johnathon Douglas??

No Douglas was a Stan man. This was McCarthy era

[Fixer82]

Willo Flood

[tetsujin1979]

No Douglas was a Stan man. This was McCarthy era
Colin Healy?

[CraftyToePoke]

No Douglas was a Stan man. This was McCarthy era

Barry Quinn I'd say, Michael Doyle had one cap around then too.