lusk incident

[the 12 th man]

what do people think of the welcome committee :rolleyes: in the post office.

[carrickharp]

Two more off the dole queue.

[Poor Student]

The amount of hold ups and robberies as of late is incredibly disturbing. While I do not welcome the the death of anyone in these situations I am glad to see the Gardaí at least are taking some initiative to fight gang crime and received some intelligence on this one. An Taoiseach is correct that we, the public cannot get weak kneed when the Gardaí are trying to crack down on this. It is getting seriously out of hand.

[blobbyblob]

You live by the sword, you die by the sword

Fair game.

Lesson learnt? Dont try to steal whats not yours!

[fosterdollar]

Abbeylara II

Expecting massive fallout from this if it turns out to be what it looks like i.e. the cops paniced and fooked up. Heard claims only one gang member had a gun and never fired it. Although, reports are conflicting at the moment. Hard to know if they were laying in wait or they sprung after them. Also I wouldn't have a problem with the fact they didn't notify many members of the public though. And if the guy with the gun was told to drop the gun and didn't then the cops have to assume that he intends to use it.

[sparkey]

Fair play to the "welcome committee". Two more scumbags less to worry about. If you live by the sword you have to be willing to die by it.

[Poor Student]

I forgot to mention I do welcome an independent inquiry into this as there must always be some accountability on the part of the Gardaí but nothing to the extent that it will stifle the Gardaí in taking necessary action to protect the citizen body.

[sparkey]

Magoo, with the greatest respect Cop your self on. This is nothing like the case in Abbeylara.

[drummerboy]

What baffles me is why the Guarda allowed the workers in the shop remain there if they knew what was going down. They could have put undercover cops inside instead. Can't blame them for their actions otherwise, if they failed to drop their weapons, they had it coming.

[paul_oshea]

listen its about time some of them got killed, and the fact that the guards knew about them makes it sound like they had been tracking them for a while i.e. they had done it before....justice served.

im just waiting for macy to say they hadnt been proven guilty by a jury though, so that they may have been innocent. :D

[fosterdollar]

Magoo, with the greatest respect Cop your self on. This is nothing like the case in Abbeylara.mmm.. seemingly irrational behaviour by the cops in a stand-off situation. Law breakers outnumbered. Yeah it's completely different. :rolleyes: Maybe the length of time taken for an independent enquiry will leave some similarity though...

[fosterdollar]

im just waiting for macy to say they hadnt been proven guilty by a jury though, so that they may have been innocent. :D

They clearly weren't innocent but there seems to be an increasing number of operations involving the cops using firepower in law enforcement. I wouldn't like to see a move towards generally arming the Gardai. Having to investigate and clearly publish the results of any such investigation will be paramount if they are to ride this incident through.

[sparkey]

[QUOTE=Magoo]mmm.. seemingly irrational behaviour by the cops in a stand-off situation. Law breakers outnumbered. QUOTE]

Are you seriously comparing armed drug dealers robbing a post office with a guy who suffered from depression who threw his mother out of their house?

[fosterdollar]

As i said it's the same when you take the fact that it was an armed stand off into account. If you add in the amount of time cops had while surrounding the house in Abbeylara which compares to the time they had gathering intelligence on the Lusk incident there's another similarity. Regardless of motives, there was the cops on one side and the law breaker on the other.

[Poor Student]

They clearly weren't innocent but there seems to be an increasing number of operations involving the cops using firepower in law enforcement. I wouldn't like to see a move towards generally arming the Gardai. Having to investigate and clearly publish the results of any such investigation will be paramount if they are to ride this incident through.

I would hate this too but it is a situation which is being taken advantage of. In a shopping centre in North Dublin criminals entered a travel agents in the middle of the day in front of everyone with sawn off shotguns and smacked the hammers on the tables to intimidate the girls while they got them to open the safe. The girls were so nervous they reset the time lock. These brazen lads then just exited the place in front of a crowd. As if that wasn't audacious enough they came back and robbed it in the night the next day. The amount of armed robberies is out of control. What can we do if people aren't playing fair?

[joeSoap]

mmm.. seemingly irrational behaviour by the cops in a stand-off situation. Law breakers outnumbered. Yeah it's completely different. :rolleyes: Maybe the length of time taken for an independent enquiry will leave some similarity though...

I'm sure you know what actually happened in Abbeylara, and understand the curcumstances....well on reflection, you obviously don't. There is no way these incidents can be compared and out of compassion for the family (Carthy) involved, should they be.

John Carthy was a disturbed young man...the eru got it badly wrong.

The two armed robbers were preparing to inflict harm on innocent people, maybe even kill to rob money), why else would they have guns?? They refused to put down their weapons...as far as the ERU were concerned they could have been shot at and killed at any time so in my opinion, deserved what they got.

[fosterdollar]

I would hate this too but it is a situation which is being taken advantage of. In a shopping centre in North Dublin criminals entered a travel agents in the middle of the day in front of everyone with sawn off shotguns and smacked the hammers on the tables to intimidate the girls while they got them to open the safe. The girls were so nervous they reset the time lock. These brazen lads then just exited the place in front of a crowd. As if that wasn't audacious enough they came back and robbed it in the night the next day. The amount of armed robberies is out of control. What can we do if people aren't playing fair?

I accept that PS, but where would armed Gardai have affected that situation? WTF if they did arrive and there was a shoot out in such a public place. Increased intelligence on amred gangs leaving them with no options is they way to deal with them. Upping the ante will leave them thinking that they have a 'fighting chance' of getting out of the situation.

[Poor Student]

I accept that PS, but where would armed Gardai have affected that situation? WTF if they did arrive and there was a shoot out in such a public place. Increased intelligence on amred gangs leaving them with no options is they way to deal with them. Upping the ante will leave them thinking that they have a 'fighting chance' of getting out of the situation.

Sorry Magoo I am just taking an example of things getting hand. I don't know the solution to be honest. I hope to God there won't be an escalating arms race or anything of those sorts. Having been to the US and seen the utility belt on a cop and the array or armaments he possessed at his disposal it is disconcerting and I would hate to see armed patrol Gardaí but how do we go about keeping armed robberies in check? What does intelligence alone do? It requires action of some sort. You do have to go and aprehend them. You're never going to block all their options and force them into stagnation.

[fosterdollar]

The two armed robbers were preparing to inflict harm on innocent people, maybe even kill to rob money), why else would they have guns?? They refused to put down their weapons...as far as the ERU were concerned they could have been shot at and killed at any time so in my opinion, deserved what they got.

Under no circumstances is it the case that "as far as the ERU were concerned they could have been shot at and killed at any time".
If you want to go down the road of how the armed stand-off came about and the mental state of the parties involved then that's separate to comments i made. Fact was, the Gardai had a armed situation on their hands and had the responsibility of ending it in the most reasonable way. I don't have enough information to comment on whether they did or not (nor do you, unless you are privileged to some facts the rest of us aren't). In terms of the adequacy of the Gardai's responce to an armed situation these incidents are comparable IMO. They will both be seen to spark debate on the issuing of weapons of defence, of procedure and PR within and outside the force.

[fosterdollar]

It requires action of some sort. You do have to go and aprehend them. You're never going to block all their options and force them into stagnation.

The Gardai have armed divisions (detectives, the ERU, etc.) which can deal with the apprehension side of things. Leaving the average Garda on the street with the option, and the decision making that comes with it, to use a firearm in dissolving such situations would have worrying consequences IMO.

[anto1208]

it does nt matter if they had one gun or 10 , the fact they had one and within half a second could have killed an inosent person or a guard ,apparently what happened was two guys charged a gaurd and he shot them . with in the few seconds he had to react it would be impossible to see if both had guns .

in limerick there was a detective waiting in his car for armed bank robbers to show up when they did they opened fire with a sub machine gun into the gaurds car killing him , before he had time to get his seat belt off .

any one in posesion of a gun ( hand gun ,sawn off barrel,or sub machine gun ) is up to no good and should be shot before they shoot some one else

[anto eile]

I would hate this too but it is a situation which is being taken advantage of. In a shopping centre in North Dublin criminals entered a travel agents in the middle of the day in front of everyone with sawn off shotguns and smacked the hammers on the tables to intimidate the girls while they got them to open the safe. The girls were so nervous they reset the time lock. These brazen lads then just exited the place in front of a crowd. As if that wasn't audacious enough they came back and robbed it in the night the next day. The amount of armed robberies is out of control. What can we do if people aren't playing fair?

i beleive that was budget travel in donaghmede shopping centre? i was working across from the shop when it happened!

this has nothing to do with abbeylara.

armed robbers got what they deserved. i fully support the killing of armed robbers/thieves/joyriders etc

[fosterdollar]

this has nothing to do with abbeylara.
I don't remember anyone saying it had.



armed robbers got what they deserved. i fully support the killing of armed robbers/thieves/joyriders etc

How noble and honourable.

[Macy]

im just waiting for macy to say they hadnt been proven guilty by a jury though, so that they may have been innocent. :D
Firstly, getting caught in the act is very different from the police building a possible case against somebody and charging them.

Secondly, why bother with courts at all, just let the Gard's dish out their own sort of justice as they feel fit. Anyone they arrest/charge must be guilty - as proven by every case they bring to court leading to conviction...

I'm not particularly sympathetic to these two, but if there is no enquiry into it then we're potentially going down a very dangerous road, especially as seems to be the case one of them shot didn't even have a gun.

[patsh]

It does not automatically follow that you think the Gardai were wrong if you want to see the incident investigated by an independent body.

It does not automatically follow that your are on the side of law & order when you welcome the death of two people.

Can I ask a few questions?
1. Do people want the Gardai to carry on in the same manner as the robbers, and simply dispense with the justice system? To equate sums of money with being as valuable as a life?
If your answers to those questions is yes, you need to really reflect long and hard on the type of society you will end up with.

2. Would people agree that this incident will not stop robberies taking place?
I would suggest that the answer is yes, robberies will continue.

3. Given robbers will still carry our raids, they will probably now also believe that Gardai are prepared to shoot them dead. Does anyone think that this puts ordinary unarmed Gardai and civilians, as well as armed response units like thos involved in this incident, in far greater danegr than before?
In a practical sense, don't people think that instead of having one handgun for a gang, it's probable that robbers will bring a lot more weapons with them, as they may believe that they may have to shoot their way out of a robbery?


4.Does anyone think that ALL Gardai may be seen as a threat to robber's lives, and they may be far more "pre-emptive" than before?
What about the situation that an armed robery is taking place. They see a Garda/Gardai on the beat, and while the Gardai may have no idea that a robbery is taking place, will the robbers feel threatened and feel they have to shoot first, thinking they may be shot at?

There is a good reason for the present justice system in "civilised" countries. It comes from thousands of years of experience that if you sink to the level of the criminal, then there is no law & order, no society and we are all the same.
It's fashionable these days to talk tough, spew out the old rubbish clichés about "die by the sword" etc. and we have in this country a "Justice" Minister who thinks his so-called hard man act is the way to carry out his duties.
Beware a populist who panders to the lowest common denominator, it drags us all down to the lowest level.

[Roo69]

The amount of hold ups and robberies as of late is incredibly disturbing. While I do not welcome the the death of anyone in these situations I am glad to see the Gardaí at least are taking some initiative to fight gang crime and received some intelligence on this one. An Taoiseach is correct that we, the public cannot get weak kneed when the Gardaí are trying to crack down on this. It is getting seriously out of hand.

Agreed, it's happening a hell of a lote more these days, 3 armed robberies in Bray last week alone. One of which included an attempted armed robbery in the Calisle Grounds on Locker Davies.

I' dont agree with killing anyone for any reason, but as one of my cousins said (she works in a bank and has been held at gun point several times and struck on the head by a gun) that they deserved what they got, she said it is the most terrifying experience in life, someone shoving a shotgun in the middle of your face.............

[the 12 th man]

i think the gardai showed that bank/post office raids are not a pushover any more.

i agree that they (the gardai) are no angels and have been heavy handed before as in the "free the streets" protest in dublin but i think they got it right on this occasion.

i feel little or no sympathy for the guys who perished.

[pete]

I'm not particularly sympathetic to these two, but if there is no enquiry into it then we're potentially going down a very dangerous road, especially as seems to be the case one of them shot didn't even have a gun.

I agree. No sympathy for thier deaths but the Guards have to be accountable. This is once again another reason we should have a Garda Ombudsman. Wetold the PSNI they have to have one but have second standards here. Ombudsman Office could easily investigate incidents like this without need for separate enquiries.

The ERU seem to be lose cannons. Just because they are trained by the FBI doesn't mean they should act like them with shoot first ask questions later policy.

[Superhoops]

The ERU seem to be lose cannons. Just because they are trained by the FBI doesn't mean they should act like them with shoot first ask questions later policy.
Suggest they asked the question first alright: 'Why is one of these low life is carrying a gun?
Answer: 'At best, to frighten or intimidate the people they were going to rob or at worst, to use it if they meet any resistance'
Conclusion: 'Take the fu*kers out before they injure or kill someone'

Anyone carrying a gun in the process of commiting a crime is fair game to be shot themselves by the law enforcers.

[Jim Smith]

Surely its in the interest of the Gardai to have an independent inquest in cases like this? This is the only way that they will be able to protect their good name, especially if a case arises like the one in the UK when the man with a table/chair? leg was shot dead.

[Macy]

Anyone carrying a gun in the process of commiting a crime is fair game to be shot themselves by the law enforcers.
But one of them wasn't carrying a gun.

[pete]

Conclusion: 'Take the fu*kers out before they injure or kill someone'


An idiotic way to run a POLICE service. If had it that way Police would just be like organised crime themselves.

Absolute power corrupts which why the Garda need to be accountable.

Something seriously wrong if the Gardai cannot criminakls whose schedule they know of in advance.

[sligoman]

Another two scumbags less in the country. A job well done Gardai.

[anto eile]

this has nothing to do with abbeylara

I don't remember anyone saying it had.

i support the killing of armed robbers/joyriders etc

How noble and honourable.


1: then why the hell was abbeylara mentioned??
2: the scum get what they deserve.and the more scum taken out then the safer the streets are for the rest of us

[razor]

It's fashionable these days to talk tough, spew out the old rubbish clichés about "die by the sword" etc. and we have in this country a "Justice" Minister who thinks his so-called hard man act is the way to carry out his duties.I think this reaction is human nature, the rest of us try and live lawfully and go about our lives trying to earn a crust. Then you have these scum going about doing what they like.
Do you think these guys gave 2 hoots about the "justice system" in a civilised country. Without the 2 of these vermin I believe it makes our country a bit more civilised.

[fosterdollar]

1: then why the hell was abbeylara mentioned??

Having high level commonalities does not necessarily mean they are related incidents. Merely analogous references were made. Of course, many jumped on the "how could you be so heartless to compare them?" bandwagon. I may be wrong but it appeared your comments were of a similar background.


2: the scum get what they deserve.and the more scum taken out then the safer the streets are for the rest of us
Let's lynch all the young drivers as well... and anyone caught speeding for that matter. That would make the streets safer too.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I think patsh is on to something when he says (paraphrasing) that this kind of thing just raises the ante for all concerned.

Whatever about my lack of sympathy for the two dead armed robbers the fact remains that if a message is sent out to criminal gangs that they are going to be issued with summary justice it's going to make these cnuts more likely to shoot first and ask questions later. That means more dead innocent civilians, more dead gardai and will lead to a spiral of gun violence that will itself lead to calls for the re-introduction of the death penalty for cop killers.

As for the person who said it should be acceptable for the cops to shoot joyriders -can I just say I think joyriders are absolute scum -BUT I'll remind you we all rightly condemned the Norths security forces -and in particular their parachute regiment -when they'd a brazenly open "shoot to kill" policy towards joyriders.

[Superhoops]

But one of them wasn't carrying a gun.
Was he just going into the PO for a stamp then?

[Superhoops]

An idiotic way to run a POLICE service. If had it that way Police would just be like organised crime themselves.

Absolute power corrupts which why the Garda need to be accountable.

Something seriously wrong if the Gardai cannot criminakls whose schedule they know of in advance.
You cannot arrest someone and charge them with 'intent to commit armed robbery' unless you have cast iron proof of the intent. No doubt they were acting on tip-off, probably from another crim, who would have no intentions of giving evidence about intent. So even if the Gardai knew of their intent, how would they prove it?

The only effective way to catch them is 'in the act' and then take them into custody. If there is resistance, as there appear to have been in this case, there are not many options left to the Gardai only to 'take them out'.

Effective policing I would say and hopefully a deterrent to the next little toe rag who is considering going to do a job 'tooled up' or going with someone else who is.

[Macy]

Was he just going into the PO for a stamp then?
No, but he wasn't going to shoot a cop was he?

[patsh]

I think this reaction is human nature, the rest of us try and live lawfully and go about our lives trying to earn a crust. Then you have these scum going about doing what they like.
Do you think these guys gave 2 hoots about the "justice system" in a civilised country. Without the 2 of these vermin I believe it makes our country a bit more civilised.
And thats the question I'm asking, if you want the police to have the attitude that these guys are "vermin" and thus can be eliminated, then haven't we sunk to their level? We are the same as them.

You cannot say that we are law-abiding citizens who believe in a justice system and have a civilized society, but then go and kill people because we think they are vermin. It's impossible.

[Macy]

Just wondering, scary and all as armed raids must be, when was the last civilian shot in such an incident? I've no idea whether it's common or not. Only one that comes to mind is Charlie Chawlk (sp?) who owns the Goat....

[Baker]

Im sick of hearing about armed robberies occuring nearly every day, gangs raiding homes of businessmen and keeping their wife (who in one recent case was heavily pregnant) and kids hostage while forcing them to empty safes etc. The real damage of these raids is not the monetary value which is taken but the phychological damage this can do to these involved which can be very severe and long term.

The guys who go around doing these robberies do not mind attacking soft targets like the elderly, kids, women and in cases specifically target them.

Well done to the guards, I wouldnt normally be their biggest fan but something simply had to be done and they got it right with this one. No sympathy whatsoever for either of those shot. Might make their mates think twice before planning their next payday.

[razor]

And thats the question I'm asking, if you want the police to have the attitude that these guys are "vermin" and thus can be eliminated, then haven't we sunk to their level? We are the same as them.I don't think the gardai went into this with the attitude these are vermin, I think the way it panned out, much to do with the gardai ineptitude, necessiatated a garda to kill or be killed. He did as he was trained to do in a certain situation. More instinct than anything else. It must still be a difficult job to have to kill 2 people, although with 2 perfect shots, not bad.

[fosterdollar]

Well then incapacitating the raiders would perhaps make the Gardai's job easier to bear then...

I don't like to question the actions of the individual Gardai involved in this incident other then is absolutely necessary beacuse i appreciate the difficult situation they were in. However, as mentioned in earlier posts, I would imagine a review of operational procedures of the force is required.

[patsh]

I don't think the gardai went into this with the attitude these are vermin, I think the way it panned out, much to do with the gardai ineptitude, necessiatated a garda to kill or be killed. He did as he was trained to do in a certain situation. More instinct than anything else. It must still be a difficult job to have to kill 2 people, although with 2 perfect shots, not bad.
You called them vermin, and I ask you, do you really think that summary execution makes this a more civilised country?

[razor]

You called them vermin, and I ask you, do you really think that summary execution makes this a more civilised country?It was an unfortunate execution but with 2 less of these uncivilised types about then its definitely more civilised.

[patsh]

It was an unfortunate execution but with 2 less of these uncivilised types about then its definitely more civilised.
If you think it is civilised to kill people in the manner as happened, God help our society.

The next time a few of these "vermin" go to rob a bank/post office/whatever, they will make sure they are carrying a lot more than just one handgun......

[stickyjoe]

theres nothing civilised about killing someone else. and i have great sympathy for the guard that had to do it in order to defend himself.

however if these scumbags are going to go around terrorising innocent people by robbing them with guns,sledgehammers etc. its about time the decent people of this country and the garda fight back.

i for one commend the garda for their actions and hope they continue to take the fight to the vermin.

[razor]

If you think it is civilised to kill people in the manner as happened, God help our society.

The next time a few of these "vermin" go to rob a bank/post office/whatever, they will make sure they are carrying a lot more than just one handgun......Pat, the word I would use is unfortunate and in rushing at the garda these guys forced his hand. I feel sorry for the garda at having to do this but i'd have done the same myself. I totally agree with your concern in regard to the next time a robbery occurs and hope to God this won't be the case.