Potential ramifications for LOI after todays FAI accounts debacle.

[Nesta99]

I didn't say they were happy, more so in a position where they could accept without significant impact. Had they been a club who were not in such a healthy position, I would expect them to be singing from the roof tops rather than just a small seed being sown.

There was a process, legal team phone numbers were swapped, and Dundalk got their money more or less as requested. I'm not sure how much shouting could be done as nobody would have known the FAI reason for a payment plan other than its the FAI and we even joked in 2016 that they would try to get a cut of the prizemoney annually. Any initial delay in payments wasnt even a general secret and could have been explained away with a 'the CFO' is out for the next few weeks. There's a retrospective context that of course now people would have been marching on Abbotstown with pitchforks ready. But at the time?? And that small seed sown has done a spectacular job so dont knock it!! If Delaney could get Waterford licenced for Europe when they werent eligible only for his demise to put a stop to it, it again shows the lengths to which he used sway to reward or punish depending. The right course was followed and the club was protected.

[pineapple stu]

Another question with the way this is going - say the FAI go bankrupt, and it takes a few months to get a new FAI constituted - lack of directors, rows with the government, and so on.

Are we out in the international cold while there's no FAI?

[Mr_Parker]

Another question with the way this is going - say the FAI go bankrupt, and it takes a few months to get a new FAI constituted - lack of directors, rows with the government, and so on.

Are we out in the international cold while there's no FAI?

I would be shocked if it got anywhere near bankruptcy from the figures we have. Much of the new 'big' numbers arise from required accountancy protocols. However some are worrying, like the Sports Direct one, but I believe with effort they can be managed. The biggest being the bank, they would be reluctant, imo, to be the ones to pull the house of cards down.

[pineapple stu]

It's near bankruptcy right now.

It mayn't happen - I think there's a lot of interest in it not happening - but it factually is near bankruptcy at this current moment in time

[A N Mouse]

Another question with the way this is going - say the FAI go bankrupt, and it takes a few months to get a new FAI constituted - lack of directors, rows with the government, and so on.

Are we out in the international cold while there's no FAI?

From what little digging I've done it seems as soon as the government/revenue step up and try winding up the association, fifa become involved says your not of the boss of me this is a footballing matter.

Now of course the only card they really have to play is international ban for X amount of years. Which carries some weight, but then again these kind of situations tend to involved tinpot regimes or developing country's. However before the last world cup they threatened Spain and banned Mali for government interference. And Ghana have operated under a 'normalization committee' for the last number of years, supposedly ending this month, after the government rowed back from effectively dissolving the association and inserted work with fifa.

Course then there this talk of a joint bid for 2030. I mean where tf did that come from?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39294566

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-soccer-spain-federation/spain-face-possible-world-cup-ban-as-fifa-warns-over-government-interference-idUKKBN1E92AX

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45220125

[NeverFeltBetter]

Sierra Leone also only got a suspension lifted this summer (just in time for CAF World Cup qualifiers) after government interference. Greece were also suspended for a time in 2006.

[pineapple stu]

Greece were threatened with a ban in 2016 and 2018 as well.

What happens if the bank pull the plug? That's hardly government interference.

[A N Mouse]

Greece were threatened with a ban in 2016 and 2018 as well.

What happens if the bank pull the plug? That's hardly government interference.

Imagine if you look into whatever statute it'll be phrased something like 'outside interference' it just most commonly manifests as 'government interference'. I haven't gone back further than last few years, but that Ghana one was closest I could find there was a winding up order in court.

The bank can pull the plug, but it still has to go to court. And, tinfoil hat time, they don't want any association properly investigated by an outside body. Is that fbi investigation still ongoing? I'm sure they'd be more than willing to check any money that was just resting in an account.

But in truth unless someone can come up with an example of an association actually disbanding then we only really have conjecture.

[Martinho II]

There was a very interesting interview with Des Cahill on Claire Byrne show last night. The way he was treated was terrible and even worse when he knew JDs father extremely well. I never knew why he wasnt involved in the soccer anymore and now I know why. It explains why a lot of the journos got threats from the FAI and had to pull back on their stories. I reckon with the Sunday times the only reason they fought their injunctions in the High Court well was they had their backing from their parent Co in the UK who stood by them all the way. Thats why the Sunday Times sports journo got journo of the year !

[osarusan]

Under normal circumstances the FAI would be lighting a fire under Limerick to sort out a team for 2020.

Without that, I wonder will there even be one.

[Nesta99]

The stars aligned on a few things. I'd say there is still some head shaking on why the story didnt just go away but any fooball fan should know that well worn tactics get stale and JD let complacency kick in. I think if hadnt try to bury the 100k story and not stonewall the PAC the public interest wouldnt have been there. While the ST made the most of things by drip feeding additional info there was also some great work done by the journalists in keepin the whole thing alive and we could do with a lot more of it across the board!

[pineapple stu]

Not to mention the leak as well.

Story would have been a lot harder to break without inside evidence

[marinobohs]

Not to mention the leak as well.

Story would have been a lot harder to break without inside evidence

Whomever that leak was deserve the thanks of the nation. Without him/her the circus would have continued to stagger on.

Even those cynical of the Failures didn't expect the crater we discovered last week.

[Charlie Darwin]

How many LOI clubs/reps helped to prop up the FAI regime through vocal support, statements or failing to question them at AGM's etc of the past decade or so, directly or indirectly, and would any of those same people end up involved in any new league set up via their club position?
Not many, to be fair. Pat O'Sullivan at Limerick (who are about to go bust) was always behind him and Lee Power of Waterford, a recent blow-in who seemed to be seduced by Delaney before turning his back on him at the first sign of being stabbed in the back. The rest may have held their tongues through gritted teeth, while Pats and Derry went out on a limb and opposed him.

[EatYerGreens]

I would imagine, like in the IFA and other national associations, little if any grants come out of their own pocket, but rather are monies being distributed from UEFA, Sports Ireland, etc pots. Any attempt to deny money entitled to clubs would have seen those and similar bodies impose sanctions on the FAI.

This is really naïve stuff Mr Parker.

You can't claim you've been denied what you never knew you would have had a shot at otherwise.

It was very easy for the FAI to direct government grants to the clubs and leagues that it liked. Especially as some of those funds were completely discretionary, and no applications were even required. How do you think Clones Town FC ended up with their refurbished ground being called 'John Delaney Park' ?

And for those sums where applications were required, it's very easy to minimise how much you give to things you don't want to - or leave them with nothing at all because the pot was over-subscribed.

All Delaney did at the FAI was to replicate the way FIFA was run under Blatter. Using patronage and funding to reward friends and punish dissenters - thereby keeping both in check.

[EatYerGreens]

Yes and dont know. Are you suggesting an asset firesale and making clubs homeless - well if its for the greater good United Park is worth 12-20mil!

On what basis are you asserting United Park is worth those sort of sums ? That's a very big ball park from €12m to €20m.

[sbgawa]

On what basis are you asserting United Park is worth those sort of sums ? That's a very big ball park from €12m to €20m.

I think Nesta is suggesting he sees 12m to 20m of enjoyment value out of seeing Drogheda homeless :)
12m as a short term happy day and another 8m of enjoyment watching them struggle.

Harsh very Harsh on the neighbours

[seand]

Nesta your PM box is full again! That programme is in the post to you, cheers

[Mr_Parker]

This is really naïve stuff Mr Parker.

You can't claim you've been denied what you never knew you would have had a shot at otherwise.

It was very easy for the FAI to direct government grants to the clubs and leagues that it liked. Especially as some of those funds were completely discretionary, and no applications were even required. How do you think Clones Town FC ended up with their refurbished ground being called 'John Delaney Park' ?

And for those sums where applications were required, it's very easy to minimise how much you give to things you don't want to - or leave them with nothing at all because the pot was over-subscribed.

All Delaney did at the FAI was to replicate the way FIFA was run under Blatter. Using patronage and funding to reward friends and punish dissenters - thereby keeping both in check.

Much of that may be true, but you help make my point. Unless scrutinised and challenged such was allow to become the norm, especially by going to those who supplied the funding, rather than the IFA. Outside funding going into the organisation is a matter of record.

[Mr_Parker]

Not many, to be fair. Pat O'Sullivan at Limerick (who are about to go bust) was always behind him and Lee Power of Waterford, a recent blow-in who seemed to be seduced by Delaney before turning his back on him at the first sign of being stabbed in the back. The rest may have held their tongues through gritted teeth, while Pats and Derry went out on a limb and opposed him.

So most of the clubs did raise questions at AGM's, Council etc, is that what you are saying? That was my question. Staying silent, by holding your tongues through gritted teeth or otherwise is in effect giving tacit support.

It was only through questioning, evidence being presented, legal cases, getting politicians involved etc by clubs year on year, that major change was brought to the the IFA. These are all well documented.

[Charlie Darwin]

So most of the clubs did raise questions at AGM's, Council etc, is that what you are saying? That was my question. Staying silent, by holding your tongues through gritted teeth or otherwise is in effect giving tacit support.

It was only through questioning, evidence being presented, legal cases, getting politicians involved etc by clubs year on year, that major change was brought to the the IFA. These are all well documented.
As far as I know, most clubs didn't openly question, especially at AGMs where most weren't even invited. Clubs were forced to cede the league to be run by the FAI in the mid-2000s due to their own terrible mismanagement and that effectively put them under the thumb.

[Nesta99]

I think Nesta is suggesting he sees 12m to 20m of enjoyment value out of seeing Drogheda homeless :)
12m as a short term happy day and another 8m of enjoyment watching them struggle.

Harsh very Harsh on the neighbours

Yes tongue in cheek! I wouldnt wish United Park to be sold from under DUFC though there is a tiny bit of me that would smirk at the few Drogs that consistantly referred any issues with United Park to the FAI as owners of the ground, forgetting that it was purchased by the FAI to keep the club alive and that they agreed to seek only the money payed for the ground early 90s, non indexed linked. Therefore even though DUFC dont own the ground they would get almost full proceeds of a sale - yet there were those who billed the FAI for lightbulbs for floodlights etc.

[Nesta99]

Nesta your PM box is full again! That programme is in the post to you, cheers

Thanks Sean! Just so popular I cant keep up with the PMs........

[marinobohs]

As far as I know, most clubs didn't openly question, especially at AGMs where most weren't even invited. Clubs were forced to cede the league to be run by the FAI in the mid-2000s due to their own terrible mismanagement and that effectively put them under the thumb.
Anyway with the FAI “brand” toxic and what’s left of the association fire fighting for the next couple of years surely the time for the clubs to look at a new structure ? Whether the FAI was good or bad for the League (Both IMHO) there is little doubt it is now unfit for purpose. Any chance of a Lucid like plan on the way forward ?

[Charlie Darwin]

Anyway with the FAI “brand” toxic and what’s left of the association fire fighting for the next couple of years surely the time for the clubs to look at a new structure ? Whether the FAI was good or bad for the League (Both IMHO) there is little doubt it is now unfit for purpose. Any chance of a Lucid like plan on the way forward ?
The clubs proposed a new structure a couple of years ago and the FAI completely disengaged. I can't see them continuing under the FAI now, particularly as clubs like Dundalk, Bohs and Rovers now have their houses in order. It's outlived its usefulness.

[Mr_Parker]

As far as I know, most clubs didn't openly question, especially at AGMs where most weren't even invited. Clubs were forced to cede the league to be run by the FAI in the mid-2000s due to their own terrible mismanagement and that effectively put them under the thumb.
Invited to the AGM? Maybe I have misunderstood the construct of the FAI, but are not clubs not members in their own right of the FAI and therefore entitled to attend an AGM as well as being represented on Council?

[A N Mouse]

Invited to the AGM? Maybe I have misunderstood the construct of the FAI, but are not clubs not members in their own right of the FAI and therefore entitled to attend an AGM as well as being represented on Council?

Both these are correct, but there some provisions on the AGM which and willing to be corrected here have been used to prevent clubs attending.

Bit of context from April https://medium.com/@menton.brendan/reflections-on-the-crises-in-the-football-association-of-ireland-8c3f53d9dfec

But by ignoring fifa rules and selectively implementing various reports (genesis is one everybody remembers) Kim Jong-un's donkey gave himself voting rights on the important committees reduced size of board, council and AGM(?). Removing NL clubs from board, and increasing the influence of the bloc bought and paid for by crumbs from the table, then erroded controls that had been put in place since the last public outcry.

So yes questions could have been asked, but all the apparatus was in place to discourage anyone sticking their head above the parapet. Including club licencing, which hasn't yet be implicated in this but with hindsight the slap dash fudge factory looks like something donkey could put on his CV as being one of the first in Europe to implement in his bid to continue on the uefa gravy train.

The ill timing of recent 2030 announcements leave me wondering if rather than some propaganda attempt this was what he was attempting to brazen it out for.

But as a matter of urgency the league needs its own management company independent of the association and the clubs. And the licencing needs to be seen to be a thoroughly independent arms length body.

[Martinho II]

Both these are correct, but there some provisions on the AGM which and willing to be corrected here have been used to prevent clubs attending.

Bit of context from April https://medium.com/@menton.brendan/reflections-on-the-crises-in-the-football-association-of-ireland-8c3f53d9dfec

But by ignoring fifa rules and selectively implementing various reports (genesis is one everybody remembers) Kim Jong-un's donkey gave himself voting rights on the important committees reduced size of board, council and AGM(?). Removing NL clubs from board, and increasing the influence of the bloc bought and paid for by crumbs from the table, then erroded controls that had been put in place since the last public outcry.

So yes questions could have been asked, but all the apparatus was in place to discourage anyone sticking their head above the parapet. Including club licencing, which hasn't yet be implicated in this but with hindsight the slap dash fudge factory looks like something donkey could put on his CV as being one of the first in Europe to implement in his bid to continue on the uefa gravy train.

The ill timing of recent 2030 announcements leave me wondering if rather than some propaganda attempt this was what he was attempting to brazen it out for.

But as a matter of urgency the league needs its own management company independent of the association and the clubs. And the licencing needs to be seen to be a thoroughly independent arms length body.

Seen interesting piece in irish sun today about the scandal. Staff in FAI want it split in two-FAI to run international team and the government will step in and fund the underage etc themselves. Think LOI would prefer this more than FAI even if they hate Shane Ross altogther.

[Mr A]

There didn't seem to be any clarity on where the the LOI would fall. It sounds like a stupid idea to be perfectly honest.

[A N Mouse]

There didn't seem to be any clarity on where the the LOI would fall. It sounds like a stupid idea to be perfectly honest.

I'd hope the LOI was outside the tent (****ing in) looking after itself.

[Dalymountrower]

I think Nesta is suggesting he sees 12m to 20m of enjoyment value out of seeing Drogheda homeless :)
12m as a short term happy day and another 8m of enjoyment watching them struggle.


With that gift for hypothetical figures shouldnt you be working in the marketing of image rights arena?

[Eminence Grise]

Now is the time for the league to break away from the FAI. I’ve often wondered what a league run by professional administrators with football people and executives experienced in marketing, law and corporate governance, finance, procurement, and rights and negotiations could do for football here. A variation of fantasy football, I suppose. No reason to think we’ll ever have anything but the same ordure of business, same shovel. And that’s pretty depressing.

[Mr_Parker]

There didn't seem to be any clarity on where the the LOI would fall. It sounds like a stupid idea to be perfectly honest.

Further stories on this seem to indicate that What was being initially portrayed was not as first thought. It just seems like what they want to set up is a separate arm of the FAI, basically a trust/foundation/community interest company or similar. It gives arms length from the main organisation, at least on the surface. Reality is that it still is in essence an FAI body. All UK association's have one, and many clubs. It allows some independent control but UEFA funding would still flow through the FAI, while the likes of Sport Ireland would fund go directly to this branch of the FAI. That's my take anyway.

The IFA set one up some years ago. It works well in some ways, but not all.

https://www.irishfa.com/irish-fa-foundation

[Mr_Parker]

Now is the time for the league to break away from the FAI. I’ve often wondered what a league run by professional administrators with football people and executives experienced in marketing, law and corporate governance, finance, procurement, and rights and negotiations could do for football here. A variation of fantasy football, I suppose. No reason to think we’ll ever have anything but the same ordure of business, same shovel. And that’s pretty depressing.

While a League can be formed that is not subject to the direct administration controls of the FAI, there would still need to be much interaction with it. For example Licencing, Discipline, aspects of player registration and would also still have to be the conduit for UEFA prize money and funding.

[Mr_Parker]

@RTEsoccer: "My guess is if the FAI goes, the League of Ireland goes the same way. I think that is absolutely inevitable."

Minister Shane Ross has warned the League of Ireland could collapse alongside the FAI in the current crisis.

https://twitter.com/RTEsoccer/status/1207268344275050496/video/1

[pineapple stu]

Cross-posting from the Ireland thread, but it probably belongs better here...

https://twitter.com/soconaill/status/1207265205660639232

Don't know if this is true or not - no Euro 2020 or LoI in Europe if the FAI go bust - but it's logical. Presumably this would also mean no solidarity funding for clubs.

Wouldn't like to be doing a club budget about now

[NeverFeltBetter]

Possibility of losing the EURO 2020 hostings might encourage government to step in to keep FAI on life support at least.

[Dalymountrower]

@RTEsoccer: "My guess is if the FAI goes, the League of Ireland goes the same way. I think that is absolutely inevitable."

Minister Shane Ross has warned the League of Ireland could collapse alongside the FAI in the current crisis.

https://twitter.com/RTEsoccer/status/1207268344275050496/video/1

Bohs and Shels are lapsed members of the Irish League, we might get that All Ireland League and 32 county team through a reverse takeover!

[Mr_Parker]

I watched an hour or so of the Committee hearing and am astonished how so many people pontificating on the matter have so little knowledge or failed to do basic research as to the construct and regulations of FIFA, UEFA, and football association's in general. It is worrying that such people are having conversations with various parties about finding solutions, yet don't really know what they are talking about.*


They would do well to engage a sports law expert, with football as their speciality, before looking more foolish and/or making things worse.

[jbyrne]

if the government can stump up €36m for the curragh redevelopment and €67m (€3m of which appears to be spent on prize money!!!!!) to the horseys annually then the €18m to save Irish football is a bargain by comparison....

[Kingswood Rover]

if the government can stump up €36m for the curragh redevelopment and €67m (€3m of which appears to be spent on prize money!!!!!) to the horseys annually then the €18m to save Irish football is a bargain by comparison....
When it comes to lobbying Football in this country are way way down the list, looking at what went on in the last 20 years i understand why.

[Mr_Parker]

I know there are and have been issues with Ross and other politicos, but it does seem that much of the anger is now being turned in their direction, rather than being focussed where it should be. People should not be expecting them to solve the crisis, but rather those within the football family should be working on it. What has been heard publically from the hearts of the various regional association's, county boards or chairmen of LOI clubs? Surely the handcuffs are off now that Delaney and Co are gone?

Are they just sitting on their hands in hope that 'outsiders' will sort it all out and potentially in doing it their way, football ends up in circumstances that are far from ideal for football itself?

[Mr A]

When it comes to lobbying Football in this country are way way down the list, looking at what went on in the last 20 years i understand why.

I don't like whataboutery, but there are other sports that have had massive issues and still do- several counties in the GAA have serious financial scandals ongoing, Swim Ireland had a massive issue with child sex abuse, the greyhound industry is riven with cruelty and horse racing has traditionally enjoyed great support despite fixing, workers on massive hours on minimum wage (even at top stables) etc. That's off the top of my head, plenty more out there as well I'm sure.

While the FAI has been a disaster, government money was correctly spent according to everything that has come out so far.

[Pablo Escobar]

Fears for League of Ireland future emerge from Oireachtas meeting

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2019/1218/1101968-fears-for-loi-future-emerge-from-oireachtas-meeting/

[Kingswood Rover]

Yea looks grim folks time to apply to IFA 2021

[Mr_Parker]

Yea looks grim folks time to apply to IFA 2021

You may make that application a year earlier as we player a winter league. :D

[marinobohs]

Fears for League of Ireland future emerge from Oireachtas meeting

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2019/1218/1101968-fears-for-loi-future-emerge-from-oireachtas-meeting/

Hard to believe the League would be let "go to the wall" but given the current clusterfcuk masquerading as a football association literally anything is possible.

I hope those that criticised LOI fans for slagging off Delaney at least have the decency to stay away from Irish football in the future.

[seand]

Yea looks grim folks time to apply to IFA 2021

well we've already won the playoff v Linfield for the Champions League spot :-)

[nr637]

"The Government have asked Sport Ireland to arrange a meeting with representatives of the League of Ireland clubs and players in advance of the meeting with UEFA which is pencilled in for January 14th 2020, to hear the leagues concerns."How important could this meeting be for the future of the league now with the current FAI business plan asking for upwards of another €18m bailout!

[marinobohs]

"The Government have asked Sport Ireland to arrange a meeting with representatives of the League of Ireland clubs and players in advance of the meeting with UEFA which is pencilled in for January 14th 2020, to hear the leagues concerns."How important could this meeting be for the future of the league now with the current FAI business plan asking for upwards of another €18m bailout!

Important the club reps have some sort of cohesive approach to this, Government will not want the League to collapse but wont care enough to come up with any solutions. Put some realistic proposal (short term survival, longer term aspirational) to them and there is a chance they might back it but go in with the usual 'me fein' club approach or whinging about the FAI and they (the Government) will pretty soon lose interest.