FAI troubles

[sidewayspasser]

what does happen if the FAI goes bust?

Do Irish teams lose all coefficient points for example? So preliminary round of Europe, bottom seed in World Cup/Euro qualifying, League D in the Nations League?

Are we likely to lose a LoI club over this - are clubs owed UEFA Solidarity funding for example? Prize money is nil as it stands of course, but is there any sort of other support provided to the LoI which could be pulled?

I don't know where the end game in all this is.
Interesting questions. I think a UEFA member association going bust is unprecedented so far. Maybe UEFA have rules in place for that, or maybe not.
I would think the clubs shouldn't lose coefficient points, as it's not their fault. Demotion of the national team (bottom seeds, league D) sounds more plausible to me. Even though it's not the national team's fault either. But UEFA could say the national team represents the FAI.
As for prize money: Have the clubs received all monies from this summer's Champions League and Europa League qualifying campaigns yet, or are they still waiting to be paid (they are paid through the FAI, aren't they)? Considering how fragile LoI club finances often are, I'd say it is likely that some clubs might get in trouble as a result of all this.

[Mr_Parker]

It depends on how dirty his hands are. It's probably unlikely, but it's hard to think of a comparable case. Anglo was bigger of course, and no-one went to jail, but they were bankers, so that's different. :) But if the 2.7m Revenue settlement is his doing, and if he was signing contracts to himself (the Board deny any knowledge), and if was effectively embezzling funds, then you never know.

But your post raises another question - what does happen if the FAI goes bust?

Do Irish teams lose all coefficient points for example? So preliminary round of Europe, bottom seed in World Cup/Euro qualifying, League D in the Nations League?

Are we likely to lose a LoI club over this - are clubs owed UEFA Solidarity funding for example? Prize money is nil as it stands of course, but is there any sort of other support provided to the LoI which could be pulled?

I don't know where the end game in all this is.

FIFA would be first to take action against the FAI, and UEFA would fall into line. However, it is extremely unlikely that in the short term anything would happen on terms of Ireland being put out of football. In my opinion, if the FAI went bankrupt the process of out working such would allow a window for FIFA to step in, put people and steps in place to ensure football on an International level continues and UEFA to do similar to assist those clubs and turn league involved in their competitions. The biggest worry in terms of football would be at the grassroots and similar levels. That would probably need government intervention to support over the short term, while a new body is put in place.

[gastric]

Wow, bankruptcy is possibly the easy answer. Might a bank come in and gain kudos by offering very sympathetic terms over a long period of time? The FAI needs good, trustworthy and competent people at the helm for the next ten years or so to sort this out and regain everyone's trust.

[pineapple stu]

Not unless kudos are some new currency I've not heard of.

The other issue is what is the FAI's sustainability at present? Obviously the E9m (!!) in losses are a one-off. But can it make a profit this year? (Hardly, if government funding is stopped and internal reports are going) Next year? If its core function is loss-making (extra bank interest won't help), then the issue gets more serious. And that's before you consider that the profit has to exceed the debt being repaid annually for it to remain solvent

[eekers]

Let the company go bankrupt. Let delaney go after his money in the counts.
Set up Football Ireland.
Apply to Fifa to become a member as Ireland(the name of the country), not the republic of Ireland nonsense that came out of the dispute with two FAs.
France dont play International sport of the The French republic. We compete in every other Sport as Ireland.
**** the Euros. Hopefully the north go through the play offs and play games in the Aviva.
And Kenny can come straight in now with the playoffs done.

[elatedscum]

Let the company go bankrupt. Let delaney go after his money in the counts.


Is Delaney still owed money? Or have they paid him all? It's pretty bad alright.


interesting quote here:


"Any person who is a serving member of Council and who has been a member of Council for two years, which service need not have been consecutive, shall be eligible to be elected as President of the FAI."


https://www.fai.ie/domestic/news/donal-conway-to-step-down-as-president-of-the-fai


Was also interesting that Jamie Finn and Niamh Reid Burke were quoted with this: "On behalf of the Ireland players, we thank Sport Ireland for their support and look forward to doing the country proud in the remaining Euro 2021 qualifiers." If I was part of the FAI as it currently stands, I wouldn't be particularly happy about it.


Can't see this working itself out over the next few months. The FAI are too stubborn to give an inch more than they have to Sport Ireland and Sport Ireland are doing as much as they can to destroy the FAI, so it just gets worse and worse and worse. The FAI was and is a hugely flawed organisation (with some people doing very good work, the current crop of young players are, in my opinion, at least to a certain extent, fruit of that labour). But Sport Ireland are incredibly flawed beast in themselves - and in truth, one that probably doesn't value football anywhere near as highly as it should. I would view every decision that they or the minister makes with just as much scepticism as I would the FAI - and the idea that they are the panacea for all our problems is naive.


Meanwhile, if you subjected other organisations like the IRFU to the same scrutiny as the FAI, you'd find a lot going on there too.


Anyway, the FAI will continue to shoot themselves in the foot, then the knees as the months go on - and Sport Ireland will do their best to encourage the bleeding and it'll rumble on probably for another 15 months with redundancies, strikes before eventually the FAI will fold, or FIFA will accuse Sport Ireland of governmental interference or some dire sequence of events will happen and it will all hinder the good work that Stephen Kenny and other coaches are doing.

[pineapple stu]

Meanwhile, if you subjected other organisations like the IRFU to the same scrutiny as the FAI, you'd find a lot going on there too.
What's happened here is that Delaney has single-handedly bankrupted the FAI by (a) giving himself multiple contracts and (b) putting around 25k/month of personal spending through the books for at least three years.

That's criminal behaviour of an almost unseen scale in corporate Ireland so far as I'm aware. The board are culpable in demonstrating a complete lack of oversight. That prat from schools football at the press conference yesterday who squirmed when asked what he'd challenged Delaney on in his time on the board is a great example of the self-important incompetents who've been running the FAI. ("I believe in democracy", he said while completely ignoring the fact that he wasn't remotely capable of doing the job he'd been elected to)

I don't see any reason to suggest anything remotely similar is happening at the IRFU or GAA, and I don't see the need to suggest it.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I'm struggling to find any examples of a national football association becoming bankrupt and having to be reconstituted, in terms of consequences to national teams and clubs. FAI's position may be literally unprecedented.

[geysir]

Dan McDonnell has finally been let loose in the Indo (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/daniel-mcdonnell-why-the-john-delaney-era-is-the-worst-thing-to-ever-happen-to-irish-football-38760801.html) and vitually stabbed the vampire Delaney with a wooden stake to the heart. Not that the litany of corruption is particularily new but kudos to Dan for the eloquent expresssion.

[elatedscum]

I don't see any reason to suggest anything remotely similar is happening at the IRFU or GAA, and I don't see the need to suggest it.

Trying to use language carefully here. A friend/acquaintance of mine got a massive, massive payout to leave the IRFU. Trying to stay vague but it had to do with differences of opinion as to how to handle what would later become a very well publicised legal matter. But the payout and all the circumstances surrounding it were swept under the rug - and it's certainly my belief that if it were the FAI in the same situation, it would have been front page of a load of newspapers...

There have been a number of examples recently regarding the GAA, the situation with the unnamed official and also the issues in galway and mayo. Obviously the IOC stuff that broke in 2016 showed the culture there. The FAI could well be the worst, but everything i've seen or heard suggests that everyone has their snouts in the troff...


https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/galway-gaa-credit-card-was-used-to-pay-for-personal-expenses-892962.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/mayo-gaa-contest-recent-claims-and-seek-handover-of-funds-1.4068651

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/1024/1085497-serious-concern-over-spending-by-gaa-official/

[Stuttgart88]

Apparently several journalists weren't invited to the IRFU RWC debrief, suggesting very tightly controlled media strategy designed to avoid awkward questions.

[geysir]

Trying to use language carefully here. A friend/acquaintance of mine got a massive, massive payout to leave the IRFU. Trying to stay vague but it had to do with differences of opinion as to how to handle what would later become a very well publicised legal matter. But the payout and all the circumstances surrounding it were swept under the rug - and it's certainly my belief that if it were the FAI in the same situation, it would have been front page of a load of newspapers...

There have been a number of examples recently regarding the GAA, the situation with the unnamed official and also the issues in galway and mayo. Obviously the IOC stuff that broke in 2016 showed the culture there. The FAI could well be the worst, but everything i've seen or heard suggests that everyone has their snouts in the troff...


https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/galway-gaa-credit-card-was-used-to-pay-for-personal-expenses-892962.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/mayo-gaa-contest-recent-claims-and-seek-handover-of-funds-1.4068651

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/1024/1085497-serious-concern-over-spending-by-gaa-official/
There is no comparison to the way the GAA and FAI conduct their AGMs and no comparison with the levels of financial transparancy. The GAA AGM takes 3 days and delegates from every county board are au fait with and participate fully with items on the agenda. The GAA central annual finance report accounts for expenses down to petty cash level.
The FAI have been operating their affairs with a stalinist like cult of secrecy, dogged with obsessive control and persecution during Delaney's era, all hiding a scandalous level of financial deceptions.

Even with one of your examples at a local level in Galway, the GAA county board who misplaced the 2017 AGM minutes in order to hide some embarrassments could not hide what was in the 2017 annual accounts and after fobbing off questions for 18 months were eventually taken to task to reluctantly answer exactly what money went where.

[samhaydenjr]

Whatever happens, we're going to have to stop calling for management teams to be fired before the end of their contracts - that's getting pricey!

[Nesta99]

In the 2017 annual report, the directors stated [for each individual director] that they had provided the auditors with all relevant audit information. The 2018 annual report states that the directors had not provided all relevant audit information. Under the Companies Act, every director making a false statement is guilty of an offence carrying a fine of up to €50,000 and a prison term of up to five years.

Wouldnt it be great if this is the time that the authorities decide that an example needs to be set! Though guilt by not knowing is lesser than guilt by deception - with this in mind it really could be Delaney's neck on the line. Watch closely for disposal of assetts, transfer of deeds, or a move abroad to guage the eventual level of worry. My guess is that its already being done and those pension payments may not be of much use in due course.

[Kingdom]

Whatever happens, we're going to have to stop calling for management teams to be fired before the end of their contracts - that's getting pricey!

And we also have to stop awarding contracts before the end of a cycle for fear of losing a manager. It's not as if there aren't a few lying around.

[jbyrne]

Even with one of your examples at a local level in Galway, the GAA county board who misplaced the 2017 AGM minutes in order to hide some embarrassments could not hide what was in the 2017 annual accounts and after fobbing off questions for 18 months were eventually taken to task to reluctantly answer exactly what money went where.

mmmm..... serious rumours of at least a couple €100,000 in unpaid all ireland hurling tickets to croke park.... more than just "embarrassment" with that one

[The Donie Forde]

Brendan Menton just on RTE - he estimates the FAI debt at closer to €80-90 million...

[paul_oshea]

Thats correct 92-94 million. I've done a summary up based off what a friend sent me which ill put up later.

[paul_oshea]

https://www.fai.ie/sites/default/files/atoms/files/Reports%20and%20Financial%20Statements%20for%20the %20financial%20year%20ended%2031%20December%202018 .pdf
Pervasive limitations. Operating profit seems to be down but a function of a 4m reduction in T/O did increase grants but whilst an 8m loss overall they could probably explain/get away with that if you didn’t know what was to come.
Net assets of 5m but tangible net assets of negative 50
Illiquid insolvent, No cash
55m Same gap in 2017 at 57m... overall nav down by 8m corresponding to the loss in P and L
Cash flow actually looks ok grants went up significantly so is that sustainable and/but they burned 1.4m but after repaying financing costs of 5m
They went up quite a lot so they must now need to start repaying loans and not just interest..doesn’t look sustainable, why did the grants go from 2-10m
True liability is 44m if you add back deferred income that’s probably from UEFA etc
32m bank debt with 29m due which drives a big chunk of the 55m net liability. Seems the banks have waived that covenant though so if that is pushed back into creditors greater than 1 year
Seems like the banks have left the technical breach in place but have not amended the covenants so it remains on demand..doesn’t look like they are calling the loans in as they have sat with the breach for 2 accounting periods but that could change
Notwithstanding that take out deferred income and 28m of bank loans if they aren’t going to be called and that net liability reduces to 15m
That’s your liquidation loss
Cover that with 2m of training grounds, they don’t own the Aviva only have a lease so they would forfeit that so no intangible, there JV is there share of income for gigs in the Aviva and they have NPV’d that to 24m
Then you add back 60m of off balance sheet op leases so overall the debt to be serviced is 92m on a business making losses of 8m...need a white knight


The bank debt/liquidity position is a worry and you'd envisage serious cost cutting. The banks will not look to enforce on their debt. The reputations risk of doing so would be catastrophic.
They are in hole of about 15m which is not insurmountable and that is on the basis the debt is restructured and the deferred income is solid (sponsorship/UEFA/FIFA). Leverage is off the scale

Theres two screenshots from page 11 of 37 i wanted to upload but dont know how.

[seanfhear]

We’ll soon be talking real money !

[pineapple stu]

Brendan Menton just on RTE - he estimates the FAI debt at closer to €80-90 million...
Woah - what just happened?

55m was presumably at end 2018. There couldn't be another 30m or so since then?

[Mr_Parker]

A good listen which helps with the understanding of what was going on.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/added-time-crisis-at-the-fai-rory-best-and-colonel-gaddafi-1.4109370

[paul_oshea]

Woah - what just happened?

55m was presumably at end 2018. There couldn't be another 30m or so since then?

I pointed it out above.

[Stuttgart88]

What would they have on operating leases?

[paul_oshea]

Probably any long term lease, in this case the Aviva with IRFU as landlord. Do they rent out in abbotstown or some long lease?

[paul_oshea]

Ya Note 21 in the above link confirms it.

[Eminence Grise]

Fifa is preparing to sue its former president Sepp Blatter and the former Uefa president (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/dec/11/fifa-prepares-to-sue-michel-platini-and-sepp-blatter-to-get-15m-back)Michel Platini (https://www.theguardian.com/football/michel-platini) for a return of the 2m Swiss francs (£1.5m) paid to Platini in 2011, which led to the long bans from football for both men. (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/dec/11/fifa-prepares-to-sue-michel-platini-and-sepp-blatter-to-get-15m-back)
Fifa’s governance committee passed a resolution last month that because the money had not been repaid, despite it having been ruled an “undue payment” in proceedings of the ethics committee, Fifa should initiate legal proceedings. (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/dec/11/fifa-prepares-to-sue-michel-platini-and-sepp-blatter-to-get-15m-back) (Guardian)

Just wondering if, as reported, the FAI paid Delaney's personal legal costs they might like to consider going after him to return it? And any other personal costs.

Was wondering, too, about the nature of the settlement he got... If I were to held back key info or give false assurances in such a situation (e.g. I knew I was doing something illegal, but persuaded my employer it was just unethical) I would have entered into a contract in bad faith - surely I would be pursued for any money I received? And wouldn't have a leg to stand on?

[osarusan]

New proposal to split the FAI into two organisations, one which will be state-funded to the tune of €10 million and cover grassroots football, the other which will be a private, commercially funded organisaiton to manage international/elite teams. Ross says it will be considered.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2019/1212/1098653-ross-government-will-consider-splitting-fai-in-two/


The proposal, which was devised by FAI staff members, suggests that the state would fund a new body that would solely govern grassroots and community football.

The FAI would continue to look after the international representative teams and elite football.



The plan suggests that the Government would provide €10m each year to fund development officers and coaches at youth level while the FAI would fund itself through commercial deals.

[Mr_Parker]

New proposal to split the FAI into two organisations, one which will be state-funded to the tune of €10 million and cover grassroots football, the other which will be a private, commercially funded organisaiton to manage international/elite teams. Ross says it will be considered.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2019/1212/1098653-ross-government-will-consider-splitting-fai-in-two/

On the surface it looks like a practical solution. However, I am not so sure how this would sit with, for example, the UEFA Hat Trick programme. Association's receive considerable sums of money for grassroots football. If a new body is created outside the FAI umbrella, such funding could be lost that grassroots football currently receives.

[NeverFeltBetter]

The LOI would remain under the aegis of the FAI (that is, the part in charge of "the international representative teams and elite football") in such an arrangement right? The other entity (take your bets on the name now: Football Ireland? Department of Football? Soccer Republic?) would be for everything underneath I presume. But that won't solve the debt problem.

[osarusan]

I don't see how it's a solution to chronic mismanagement really, having both things under one organisation isn't really part of the problem, so separating them won't be much of a solution.

[tetsujin1979]

Wasn't the whole point of the recent underage restructure to have everything controlled by one organisation?

[DeLorean]

I don't see how it's a solution to chronic mismanagement really

I don't think it's meant to be? Is it not just a way for the Government to continue supporting grassroots football without putting through the grubby fingers of the FAI hierarchy?

[John83]

I don't think it's meant to be? Is it not just a way for the Government to continue supporting grassroots football without putting through the grubby fingers of the FAI hierarchy?
Surely international football subsidises the grassroots? Granted, they'll need years to pay down their debt, but this sounds like it'll impoverish the grassroots.

[DeLorean]

Yeah, I'm not saying it's a good or a bad idea, just pointing out what I think is Ross & co's logic behind it.

[osarusan]

Yeah, I'm not saying it's a good or a bad idea, just pointing out what I think is Ross & co's logic behind it.

It's the FAI's proposal though, not Ross and co.

What it looks like to me is the FAI trying to hand off the development of football at grassroots level to somebody else, and hoping for a 300% increase in govt funding, while they hang on to the only part of the football pyramid that makes any money, none of which they have suggested would be passed on to any new body.

[Mr_Parker]

I think the suggestion is really just about protecting 60 jobs which are probably in most danger currently. But for the reason(s) I gave earlier I'm not sure it would be as simple as some seem to think.

[DeLorean]

It's the FAI's proposal though, not Ross and co.

Sorry yeah, I had heard Shane Ross explaining it on the news so kind of assumed it was their idea.

[Mr_Parker]

'The curious case of a naive board member and the SFAI's Aviva Stadium corporate box'

https://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/other-soccer/article38785641.ece

[Eminence Grise]

Time to close the while operation down and replace it with a new body. I'm all for the Federation of Football and Soccer because FFS seems so *%@!ing appropriate for these gangsters.

[elatedscum]

Totally different circumstances but interesting to note the CEO also giving the organisation a €100,000 loan

https://www.rte.ie/sport/cricket/2019/1216/1099460-cricket-ireland-forced-to-downgrade-test-over-finances/

[jbyrne]

https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/joe-brolly-vertical-blinds-funsize-bananas-and-mass-incompetence-county-boards-are-even-worse-than-we-thought-38785311.html

interesting read....

[Mr_Parker]

Gov asked for €30 million - knocked back.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/fai-request-for-up-to-30m-in-support-turned-down-by-shane-ross-1.4117372

[wexfordned]

Totally different circumstances but interesting to note the CEO also giving the organisation a €100,000 loan

https://www.rte.ie/sport/cricket/2019/1216/1099460-cricket-ireland-forced-to-downgrade-test-over-finances/

That's just s**t stirring.

The CEO/cricket Ireland did give out a short term loan, but he declared it to the board, Sport Ireland and was it included in their year-end accounts. Everything was above board and no hint of financial irregularities.

[Stuttgart88]

That's just s**t stirring.
No, he acknowledged "totally different circumstances". "Interesting to note" was also key.

[NeverFeltBetter]

FAI have now refused twice when asked to appear again before an Oireachtas committee: https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/1217/1099613-fai/

Presumably they don't want to endure another public roasting.

[Stuttgart88]

New proposal to split the FAI into two organisations, one which will be state-funded to the tune of €10 million and cover grassroots football, the other which will be a private, commercially funded organisaiton to manage international/elite teams. Ross says it will be considered.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2019/1212/1098653-ross-government-will-consider-splitting-fai-in-two/Not sure I like the sound of this. The whole purpose of a NGB in a sport like football is to have a joined up structure. (I'm not suggesting we have that, but it's what we should work towards.)

Everyone gives out about the senior team being cut off from the rest of the game so I don't see how this solves anything. The old cliche of it being a pryamid is there for a reason. I think everything should be part of one body, with one proper national objective but with each strand having a clear goal, and clear reporting lines.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Shane Ross has said the FAI sought an 18 million bailout from the government, which was refused. He also said he expects a bankrupt FAI would take the LOI with it, but don't know how true that is. The league would rumble on in some form presumably.

[pineapple stu]

https://twitter.com/soconaill/status/1207265205660639232

Don't know if this is true or not - no Euro 2020 or LoI in Europe if the FAI go bust - but it's logical. Presumably this would also mean no solidarity funding for clubs.

Wouldn't like to be doing a club budget about now

[brine3]

FAI has to go bust. Feck it, lets re-join the IFA and their league.