View Full Version : Rovers docked 8 points
Slash/ED
13/05/2005, 8:22 PM
Just heard over the radio, they've been docked 8 points over this double accounts madness.
dancinpants
13/05/2005, 8:39 PM
Personally I think they got off lightly with that.
Sonic
13/05/2005, 11:11 PM
id bet my life ion it if it was any other club bar rvs bohs shels and mayb pats they would be f**ed out long ago :mad:
Gerrit
13/05/2005, 11:56 PM
Which means they're back on zero ?? Finn Harps gets away from the bottom spot then...
on our way back with the supporters coach from Drogheda-Shels we were singing the classic Rovers chant...
You're homeless, homeless hoops
Your bus to Tallaght will never come
Poor guys, we should really not be laughing with the misery of such a traditional club. Still, when you play with fire you know you can get burnt... So saying this is all injustice that they're punished would be wrong.
Poor Student
14/05/2005, 12:13 AM
Though I have yet to hear any of this confirmed anywhere, assuming it is true then it would land Rovers back on 1 point. If we beat Finn Harps tomorrow that would not be the end of the world for Rovers with them being only 1 point behind. I was at the Pats v Rovers game today and Rovers do have a bit about them. Having seen Bohs in action the previous week I reckon Rovers are as good as if not better than them. Of course it also remains to be seen how much of his squad Roddy will retain after June. I suppose this is harsh on the members of the 400 club with the ineptitude of the very board they are trying to displace being responsible for this deduction. However the rules were breached and an example must be set. I suppose Rovers will appeal however and I am sure this is not over.
harry crumb
14/05/2005, 12:25 AM
At least we know that the Licensing must be taken seriously. McGuire and his fellow boards members were obviously running the club very poorly.
Rovers are very very lucky to get off so lightly. The FAI probably sat down and worked out the least number of points they reckon wouldn't put Rovers in serious trouble and docked them that.
The message to the clubs seems to be- hey, spend away, sure if it
ye can't pay it we'll dock a few points but sure what the hell. Want to spend 950k of grant money on players- go for it!
Clubs should apply for grants, spend the best part of a million euro on players (that sure secure them far more than the 8 points they'll be docked for doing so) and sure Bob's your uncle.
Why run a club properly when you can just hope for the best and just f**k over your creditors...
mypost
14/05/2005, 5:24 AM
Which means they're back on zero ?? Finn Harps gets away from the bottom spot then...
on our way back with the supporters coach from Drogheda-Shels we were singing the classic Rovers chant...
You're homeless, homeless hoops
Your bus to Tallaght will never come
Poor guys, we should really not be laughing with the misery of such a traditional club.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Who the Fk are you to start laughing at us? Which team is more famous in Belgium, Shelbourne or Shamrock Rovers? Which club has the bigger fan base? If Shels were bottom of the league and deducted 8 points, with no home ground to play in, you and your bandwagon-jumping friends wouldn't be traipsing up to Drogheda at all, would you? Rovers fans will travel anywhere, regardless of what is thrown at us, by insensitive idiots like you! :mad:
CollegeTillIDie
14/05/2005, 7:46 AM
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Who the Fk are you to start laughing at us? Which team is more famous in Belgium, Shelbourne or Shamrock Rovers? Which club has the bigger fan base? If Shels were bottom of the league and deducted 8 points, with no home ground to play in, you and your bandwagon-jumping friends wouldn't be traipsing up to Drogheda at all, would you? Rovers fans will travel anywhere, regardless of what is thrown at us, by insensitive idiots like you! :mad:
Roddy Collins was interviewed on Newstalk 106 last night after the game and was very upbeat. He had told the players to expect a 9 point deduction.
So Roddy's viewpoint is they are up a point on what they expected to have.
Whatever the rights are wrongs of the FAI decision, the rest of the season is a trial period to allow the club to get it's house in order. If they don't do so
Rovers will not be in Football at the highest level in 2006!
Had Rovers qualified for Europe last season, the fact that the licence is in effect suspended would mean that they would be withdrawn from Europe.
That would have been a serious penalty and a major punishment.
And it puts down a marker for EL clubs for the future which we should all take note of.
mypost... It is not a question of which club is the most famous in Europe.
Nor which club has the most passionate support.
In terms of passionate support Shamrock Rovers would be in the Group stages of the Champions League most seasons.
However it is how the team performs on the field and the board performs off the field that is the key element here.
Dublin City have been better run than Shamrock Rovers since 2001 which is an indisputable fact! Many people wonder what they bring to the League.
They are a well run club, maybe that is what they bring to the League a good example to the other 21 clubs.
I thought it wasn't stipulated before the season & therefore they couldn't be docked the points. Anyway they should have either been put into the Leinster Senior League out or not docked the points. They won't get dropped coz Harps are so bad. The fans seem to be good tho, but for any Rovers fans reading this I think you should keep singing even when yer a goal down, like the Derry fans do. Yee were very quiet afer the og last nite.
GavinZac
14/05/2005, 10:13 AM
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Who the Fk are you to start laughing at us? Which team is more famous in Belgium, Shelbourne or Shamrock Rovers? Which club has the bigger fan base? If Shels were bottom of the league and deducted 8 points, with no home ground to play in, you and your bandwagon-jumping friends wouldn't be traipsing up to Drogheda at all, would you? Rovers fans will travel anywhere, regardless of what is thrown at us, by insensitive idiots like you! :mad:
wow, an Irish team with "shamrock" in its title are famous.
if there was a team in belgium with "chocolates" in its name, they'd be famous too.
your imitation hoops and imitation shamrock crest have latched on to a more famous clubs reputation.
if you consider whats going on at rovers, mypost, and and what is supposed to be the punishment, deducting ye the total points for less than 3 games is lenient. i know its unfair on the fans, but at the moment, the fans arent Shamrock Rovers. that ltd company are, and they ****ed up.
i dont see how any eL team can accuse another clubs fans of just being bandwagon fans. its the bloody eL, what bandwagon? at any game you might have a few people along for the spectacle, but every club has a constant solid support.
except dublin city.
CollegeTillIDie
14/05/2005, 10:25 AM
wow, an Irish team with "shamrock" in its title are famous.
if there was a team in belgium with "chocolates" in its name, they'd be famous too.
your imitation hoops and imitation shamrock crest have latched on to a more famous clubs reputation.
if you consider whats going on at rovers, mypost, and and what is supposed to be the punishment, deducting ye the total points for less than 3 games is lenient. i know its unfair on the fans, but at the moment, the fans arent Shamrock Rovers. that ltd company are, and they ****ed up.
i dont see how any eL team can accuse another clubs fans of just being bandwagon fans. its the bloody eL, what bandwagon? at any game you might have a few people along for the spectacle, but every club has a constant solid support.
except dublin city.
Spot on boss. Dublin City have a fickle inconsistent support just like the GAA team. They had bigger support in their promotion season of 2003 than in their Premier Division campaign last season. So in spite of having a more attractive opposition to play against their crowds went down.
Look at the Dublin Gaelic Football team as a comparible example.
Used to use Croker for National League matches now can make do with Parnell Park as only 10,000 max are arsed about going to those games.
Éanna
14/05/2005, 10:44 AM
Very harsh decision IMO. The clowns who got rovers in this mess should be the ones taking the heat for this, and with that ***** maguire gone, rovers in their current guise should not have been penalised so harshly at all.
GavinZac
14/05/2005, 10:53 AM
Very harsh decision IMO. The clowns who got rovers in this mess should be the ones taking the heat for this, and with that ***** maguire gone, rovers in their current guise should not have been penalised so harshly at all.
how is it harshly?!
all they have to do is win a game and then they are back above finn harps to resume adding nothing to the league.
Éanna
14/05/2005, 10:57 AM
Its simply not true to say they add nothing to the league Gav. Their fans alone, with their travelling support and colour and noise are a huge boost to the league. The atmosphere Shams create when they come to cork is second to none, I wouldn't fancy losing that
Poor Student
14/05/2005, 11:18 AM
Story from the RTE site:
Rovers hit the bottom after 8-point deduction
Saturday, May 14 2005 12:10
Shamrock Rovers have been docked eight points by the FAI's club licensing committee.
The committee found that the club's 2005 licence had been awarded on the basis of incorrect financial and accounting information - constituting a 'serious breach of the licensing process.'
Rovers now lie at the bottom of the eircom League Premier Division on one-point, despite last night's well-earned 1-1 draw against St Patrick's Athletic at Richmond Park.
However, the outcome could be considered to be relatively favourable for Rovers, considering that enforced relegation to the First Division and expulsion from the league were believed to have been possibilities.
The homeless Dublin club's financial irregularities were exposed when the club went into examinership last month.
Last night, the club's examiner, Neil Hughes, said that the penalty had not deterred potential investors, which are seen as crucial to the club's plans to move into a new ground in Tallaght.
Hughes also indicated that the club would not appeal the decision.
FAI chief executive John Delaney, meanwhile, said in a statement that "the committee's decision sends a clear message that the club licensing process, which all clubs have signed up to, is a serious one and irregularities in clubs' applications will result in sanctions."
"All clubs have agreed to comply with the system which is there to ensure clubs reach better standards across all disciplines within each clubs' structures," he added.
So it seems Rovers won't appeal. They must really not have a legal leg to stand on in this one. This will breathe new life into Harps campaign. I won't make comments about how awful Harps are as I really don't know having not seen them in action but Rovers didn't look the worst in the world yesterday and they have a pretty good chance of staying up by beating Harps to the playoff place and winning it. With the poor form of Longford too they are far from uncatchable. I think this is a good punishment. It gives Shamrock a good slap for their cheating and sets a still strong enough example but at least it doesn't destroy the club which is about to get rid of those who commited this crime.
centre mid
14/05/2005, 11:33 AM
Agreed
Begs the question though, when the documents were initially sent in for the UEFA license were they really scrutinised - surely heads should roll in the FAI
Éanna
14/05/2005, 11:37 AM
Agreed
Begs the question though, when the documents were initially sent in for the UEFA license were they really scrutinised - surely heads should roll in the FAI
exactly. A judgement like this would be a lot more understandable if the FAI was competent and honest, i.e. leading by example
centre mid
14/05/2005, 12:17 PM
This cast a shadow over every other club in the league ( not that another club lied on their applications ) but that any joe soap picking up the daily rag reading about rovers will think to himself " ah sure they're all at it."
Every club put in a tremendous effort into getting their Licence, and should be applauded for it, its a shame that because of the situation that rovers find themselves in that it may cause fair weather fans to turn their noses up at the EL
tiktok
14/05/2005, 1:06 PM
It's tough especially on the 400 club.
They eventually get involved in the decision making side of things and they get hit with this.
The people now involved aren't those who got them into the trouble and I think it's a case of being ckicked when you're down.
Lucky for them that Harps are currently so poor, even the 8 point loss is unlikely to relegate them.
btw, whoever awarded the licence in the first place obviously didn't do their job properly, they should go!
Slash/ED
14/05/2005, 1:33 PM
I don't know, it's fair to say that the current board did nothing and so it's harsh on them but in fairness I'm sure there were some people calling for them to be kicked out altogether, I think a points deduction is fair enough really. You could argue the Wrexham fans did nothing to deserve their points deduction and as a result relegation too. Anyway unless Harps pick up it wont even relegate them.
Dr.Nightdub
14/05/2005, 4:47 PM
I'm a bit in two minds over this.
Despite the fact that Maguire and Boyle (the two responsible for the fake accounts) have since resigned, what they did was in the name of Shamrock Rovers and any punishment dished out by the FAI should apply to Shamrock Rovers (on top of whatever legal punishment is due to the pair for filing fake accounts with the Companies Office).
However, from talking to Hooped mates, I believe the 400 Club alerted the FAI to the dodgy accounts before the licences were even granted. Which means the FAI decided to turn a blind eye and both sides would've got away with the cover-up if it hadn't been for the examinership process.
If you thought the registration fiasco was bad, watch this space. I think this has the potential to be much worse.
chippie0001
14/05/2005, 4:57 PM
I'm a bit in two minds over this.
If you thought the registration fiasco was bad, watch this space. I think this has the potential to be much worse.
Can't se how as the examiner is running the club and he has stated that they except the deduction. I reckon, just a hunch, that a deal was done, as if Rovers appeal well they could lose their licence and be kicked out. 8 points gives them a chance of staying.
My view is the fans of any club rarely do anything wrong but they suffer for the actions of their boards. To me examinership is more of a reason why Rovers should be punished as that actually puts other teams at a disadvantage. From my understanding of the licence all you had to do was submit accounts and even if they submitted the right ones, they would have got a licence. I also tend to agree that the entire process is flawed in this country and if you audited all the submissions you would find flaws.
Gerrit
14/05/2005, 6:42 PM
at what point did I mock with Rovers ? We sang a song about Rovers being homeless yeah, so ? That's teasing in a friendly way, we even didn't sing "homeless scum" like some others do...
I did say it is a shame for their loyal support and that it would be a pity if such a traditional club would disappear. So at what stage did I insult or laugh at Rovers ?!
I did say Rovers did seek their problems themselves, the board did at least. Is that laughing at them ?? I'd say it's just naming facts.
Which club is more famous in Belgium is no matter here. BTW, I think the average Belgian football fan knows neither Rovers nor Shels because the Belgians tend to see the Irish competition as crap (I strongly disagree with this, but some Belgian clubs are all about ambition and growing as big as possible - something that's starting at my favourites Ostend as well and which I strongly regret)
Rovers simply had to be punished. If they weren't and are then taken over through the examinership, the previous board could've run up debts of €2.3Mill and got a license through fraud and the "new" Rovers would've started fresh with a minimal debt...
Oh and after watching them last night, they are in big, big relegation trouble
sligoman
14/05/2005, 9:21 PM
Just heard over the radio, they've been docked 8 points over this double accounts madness.
Great News! :D :D
Their fans alone, with their travelling support
What travelling support??
It's probably better than a lot of teams but when did Rovers ever bring more than 70 or 80 fans to the Cross for what is one of their few trips out of Dublin?!
If the Rebel Army can bring 200-300 to Dublin every second week there's no excuse why Rovers or any other Dublin club can't have similar travelling support.
btw, I think the 8 point deduction is too leniant but I wouldn't have expected the FAI to show a bit of backbone so I'm not surprised!
Aberdonian Stu
15/05/2005, 9:21 PM
Just wondering, is this the first points deduction in el history that doesn't look like it'll take all season to sort out with appeals etc?
GavinZac
15/05/2005, 9:26 PM
Its simply not true to say they add nothing to the league Gav. Their fans alone, with their travelling support and colour and noise are a huge boost to the league. The atmosphere Shams create when they come to cork is second to none, I wouldn't fancy losing that
but you wont lose that because, bar roddy making an even worse job of it than last season, they wont finish below finn harps.
What travelling support??
It's probably better than a lot of teams but when did Rovers ever bring more than 70 or 80 fans to the Cross for what is one of their few trips out of Dublin?!
Rovers have the best travelling support down to the cross on a consistent basis since I started supporting city. They're always loud and always colourful. Thats why I said it. Never said it was as good as ours, which we all know is the best in the league.
Speranza
15/05/2005, 10:29 PM
I am undecided about this, its unfair to further burden the honest members of the 400 club but the surely criminal behaviour of the crooks of the past could not go unpunished.
Never said it was as good as ours, which we all know is the best in the league.
No we don't all know, you and the other delusional Corkies on here think it but I'm sure the majority wouldn't agree.
Éanna
15/05/2005, 11:10 PM
No we don't all know, you and the other delusional Corkies on here think it but I'm sure the majority wouldn't agree.
Not deluded at all. Our travelling support 3 years ago was pathetic- a lot has changed since then. We bring more to nearly every away game than other teams bring to the cross. hence me saying it
Slash/ED
15/05/2005, 11:13 PM
You have the under stated advantage of having alot of Dublin based fans though.
Éanna
15/05/2005, 11:18 PM
You have the under stated advantage of having alot of Dublin based fans however.
even allowing for that. I reckon our Dublin based support is around 50, at times, i.e. big games that might swell to about 100 (say the game in Tolka last year). But so far this season, we've had at least 100 travel from Cork for every game bar longford on a thursday night. Its rare for an away team to bring more than 50 to the cross, very rare to see over 100. Anyways, most non-Dub teams would have a support base in Dublin I'd imagine, so its hardly the point- the reverse side of that is that these people have to make the long journey for home games! Hardly a really important factor- an away support, is an away support. I could start pointing out that Shels should have a bigger away support at Bohs than at Pats because its closer etc etc- not much point in that IMO
mypost
16/05/2005, 4:51 AM
Very harsh decision IMO. The clowns who got rovers in this mess should be the ones taking the heat for this, and with that ***** maguire gone, rovers in their current guise should not have been penalised so harshly at all.
I agree with you for once. We've picked up 4 points from 2 games since Maguire resigned. 9-4 =5 points. That's how many we should have been docked, because they were the amount of points we got while the previous board, who made a blatant error, were in charge. And it was a first offence, so the punishment was very severe. If they had docked only 5 points, we would have had 4 now, and would have a decent chance to get out of the drop zone. But with 8 points taken off, it will be difficult for us to avoid relegation.
However, regarding travelling fans, I have to disagree with you. Would you bring the same amount of fans to away games, if you were a struggling club? If you were in Rovers' position, would you bring so many fans to away games? As most fans of NL clubs are fair-weather fans, who only go when their team are doing well, I wouldn't think so. The classic example of course, are Derry, who used to bring thousands to every away game when they came into the league. Then the team struggled, and their attendances, both at home and away, shrank. Now, less than 100 Derry fans travel regularly to away games. It's easy to bring large numbers to away games when you are doing well, but it's a lot harder when your team struggles to win a game.
So any sign of Maguire and Boyle getting any kind of ban from football administration? Or are the FAI keeping their seats warm - next to Kilcoyne?
GavinZac
16/05/2005, 8:28 AM
As most fans of NL clubs are fair-weather fans, who only go when their team are doing well, I wouldn't think so..
where did this myth of rovers fans being such brilliant, loyal supporters come from? was it in between disgracing ye'rselves and ye'r club (who've been doinga good job of that themselves)?
this coming from someone who thinks having the ball in play and not trying to score with it should be a foul, im inclined to have my doubts.
Éanna
16/05/2005, 12:15 PM
where did this myth of rovers fans being such brilliant, loyal supporters come from?
Its a fact Gav. Anyone who looks at the situation rationally would see that
WeAreRovers
16/05/2005, 1:42 PM
[QUOTE=GavinZac]where did this myth of rovers fans being such brilliant, loyal supporters come from?
[QUOTE]
Raising €250,000 in week? Trying to save the club from extinction? Still being around after 18 years of homelessness? Bringing 400 fans to Sweden even though the tie was effectively over? Do you want me to go on?
Anyone with even a passing interest in Irish football knows how brilliant the Rovers fans have been. To say otherwise is just bitterness.
KOH
I don't know how Rovers still have fans after everything they have endured over the last 20 years ! they are true supporters and have gone through every type of pain and emontion for their club. They should be respected for that no matter what. They along with the Derry tavelling support are by far the most noisest and colourful.
But, in saying all that they did deserve a points deduction for what they did, don't know hoe they came up with 8 points but they did need to be punished. Yeah maguire filled the accounts etc.... but he was doing it to try and benifit Rovers. Thankfully he has gone now so Rovers can finally try and start to build there once great club.
GavinZac
16/05/2005, 3:38 PM
Raising €250,000 in week? Trying to save the club from extinction? Still being around after 18 years of homelessness? Bringing 400 fans to Sweden even though the tie was effectively over? Do you want me to go on?
Anyone with even a passing interest in Irish football knows how brilliant the Rovers fans have been. To say otherwise is just bitterness.
KOH
yes, some of them have been excellent. but is that not to say that any other group of fans would have a section willing to take those steps?
Kilcoyne Our Hero
yes, some of them have been excellent. but is that not to say that any other group of fans would have a section willing to take those steps?you reckon they would have. look at some of the other clubs who have had financial problems in this league in recent years- have they had anything like the money raised like rovers have? no.
WeAreRovers
16/05/2005, 3:51 PM
Kilcoyne Our Hero
Cheers for proving my point about bitterness. ;)
KOH
Mick89
16/05/2005, 4:08 PM
yes, some of them have been excellent. but is that not to say that any other group of fans would have a section willing to take those steps?
Kilcoyne Our Hero
What about the fans of Cork Hibernian why did they not take those sort of steps?
you reckon they would have. look at some of the other clubs who have had financial problems in this league in recent years- have they had anything like the money raised like rovers have? no.
thats funny - clubs like shelbourne raise many many multiples of the amount raised by the 400 club EVERY year - cos thats how much it takes to run a professional football club - EVERY YEAR - they have a ruthless approach to exploiting any and all potential revenue streams and a top calss angle on corporate fundraising- my only criticism about the rovers 400 club/supporters trust approach is that once the emergency factor dies down its going to be very hard to extract any more blood from the same ole stones - put simply they dont have the supporter base to draw on and meet the costs of running the team and club year in year out - Dunphy was right in the sense that football clubs (even in decent leagues) are bottomless pits that suck up money
they've only a hope of success if their restructuring includes a radical re-appraisal of what is really achievable from participation in the league (which aint much) - at the moment I think their ambitions are pie in the sky - but that could be just the press release facade to attract fresh investors (read patrons)
Speranza
16/05/2005, 4:13 PM
Mypost,
Derry used to have thoushands at away matches because of succes but you are missing the fact that our city had no senior football team for a long time, when this returned the city was buzzing with interest and this led to large crowds. Naturally enough over time this has wained.
Eanna,
It is only really youselves Harps and us who can rate away support with any sort of effectiveness due to the length of travel. Dublin teams should take more to matches as they rarely have to travel outside the pale. Cork, City and Harps have to travel all day Friday to make games in Dublin. TBH Rovers probably bring the most to the brandy of the dublin teams with $hels being predictably pathetic despite us having a big enough rivalry with them.
WeAreRovers
16/05/2005, 4:15 PM
What about the fans of Cork Hibernian why did they not take those sort of steps?
That only occured to me a minute ago - how someone with a Cork Hibs avatar could be so glib about the possible demise of Ireland's most famous club beggars belief. :confused:
KOH
Slash/ED
16/05/2005, 5:07 PM
Mypost,
Derry used to have thoushands at away matches because of succes but you are missing the fact that our city had no senior football team for a long time, when this returned the city was buzzing with interest and this led to large crowds. Naturally enough over time this has wained.
Eanna,
It is only really youselves Harps and us who can rate away support with any sort of effectiveness due to the length of travel. Dublin teams should take more to matches as they rarely have to travel outside the pale. Cork, City and Harps have to travel all day Friday to make games in Dublin. TBH Rovers probably bring the most to the brandy of the dublin teams with $hels being predictably pathetic despite us having a big enough rivalry with them.
A rivalry that nobody our side knows/cares about. :)
Speranza
16/05/2005, 5:11 PM
Yeah but that's kids for you, dreamers with no sense of hate. :)
Ollie seems to care hence his paying of $hels fans on buses to ensure a large turnout a few seasons back and his famous argument with City fans.
Slash/ED
16/05/2005, 5:13 PM
I'd say he was a wee bit more concerned with winning the league than anything about Derry but whatever you want to believe
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