All-Ireland League Thread

[EatYerGreens]

Not sure why discussion on an AIL has got bundled in with the three tier league nonsense, so am creating a stand alone thread for it here :)

Any info/leaks coming out from today's meeting in Dundalk yet?

[Nesta99]

Not sure why discussion on an AIL has got bundled in with the three tier league nonsense, so am creating a stand alone thread for it here :)

Any info/leaks coming out from today's meeting in Dundalk yet?

Every journalist could end up with a ban....

[EatYerGreens]

Every journalist could end up with a ban....

Or a DVD....

[nigel-harps1954]

Reports from 5 clubs I've seen so far all very positive. Seems everyone very impressed, and there are concrete financials in place too, just not being made public yet.

This might actually happen.

[Nesta99]

Or a DVD....

Surely at least all on USB sticks these days? But either way '@~£&*?~@'....

[Ezeikial]

Dundalk's Mark Devlin


Excellent presentation from the All-Island League team this evening. Of course there will be challenges, but nothing worthwhile is ever achieved without hard work. It is definitely a very exciting project & there is great potential but obviously there is more work to be done.

https://twitter.com/markdevlin7/status/1187470612995796992

[NeverFeltBetter]

Reports from 5 clubs I've seen so far all very positive. Seems everyone very impressed, and there are concrete financials in place too, just not being made public yet.

This might actually happen.

Were northern clubs at the meeting? They're the ones that will probably need the vast majority of convincing.

[punkrocket]

According to Lucid "the vast majority of invited clubs" turned up, so I'd say that Irish League clubs were there. who was invited and who the minority were that didn't show is another thing.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50179427
The BBC up north are giving it a fair bit of coverage.

[nigel-harps1954]

Were northern clubs at the meeting? They're the ones that will probably need the vast majority of convincing.

Two of the 5 I mentioned were Glentoran and Warrenpoint.

[seand]

The European places is the big issue for me. I can imagine a case where the FAI Cup and Irish Cup could continue for RoI and NI teams and that'd be accepted for Europa League/Conference (ala Liechtenstein clubs playing in Switzerland but qualifying for EL) but just don't see how it could be a runner to expect 7-8 places overall. There was some suggestion that the overall finances would make up for the fewer European places which seems like an extraordinary claim to me, but even if that were the case you're still going from the glory / novelty / excitement / incentive of Euro football for 7-8 Irish teams down to 4. It's a hell of a leap of faith to accept fewer Euro spots and fewer top division places on the promise of an unprecedented TV deal and other income streams. I mean what happens when the TV company who are offering 1m+ get cold feet and decide late on that actually this is only worth 200k to us?

[Mr_Parker]

Reports from 5 clubs I've seen so far all very positive. Seems everyone very impressed, and there are concrete financials in place too, just not being made public yet.

This might actually happen.

It cannot be claimed that everyone was impressed. Granted the majority that spoke expressed positivities, in fact the Finn Harps rep was falling over himself to support it, they were not the majority in the room of those who expressed concerns and those who did not speak.

[brendy_éire]

Crues seem prepared to recommend it to members.

https://www.crusadersfc.com/newsdetail/ID/1793

[Mr_Parker]

Crues seem prepared to recommend it to members.

https://www.crusadersfc.com/newsdetail/ID/1793

As I said elsewhere in response to that statement.

Strange statement from Crusaders. My understanding is that the overall league prize money pot is increasing. However the prize money for 1st and 2nd has been reduced given those 2 teams gain substantial UEFA money through qualification, with the money 'saved' plus other additional revenue now be spread further down the league in terms of what each club receives. And as surprising that this payment schedule was unanimously passed by all the clubs, including Crusader, at a recent NIFL meeting. :huh:




Btw, as there comparisons being made in this AIL discussion thread, an interesting comparison between the LOI and NIFL Prem would be to look at the total prize pots based on last year's figures.

While NIFL''s last season was circa £390k and the LOI's was about €370k, the LOI clubs themselves have to contribute, from their own pockets, some €200k in entry fees. NIFL Premiership clubs entry fees are just £18k.

[pineapple stu]

£18k between the 12 teams - as in £1,500 each?

[Nesta99]

£18k between the 12 teams - as in £1,500 each?

I'd presume so as 18k each would be over £216k (€250k) so a moot point in a comparison with LoI affiliation costs. Unless it's a way of presenting figures that sound better until looked at closer!?

[pineapple stu]

That's what I wanted to confirm alright :)

May as well all the question!

[Mr_Parker]

£18k between the 12 teams - as in £1,500 each?

Correct.

[Mr_Parker]

I'd presume so as 18k each would be over £216k (€250k) so a moot point in a comparison with LoI affiliation costs. Unless it's a way of presenting figures that sound better until looked at closer!?

No. As above. £1500 each.

[Nesta99]

No. As above. £1500 each.

As I had presumed!

[pineapple stu]

Peter Collins asking Mooney about the funding on RTÉ just now.

Mooney blustering some nonsense about Government funding.

"We should dream. We should be ambitious"

"Potential to lose European places".

Not convincing at all. Sounds like another Platinum One tbh.

[Nesta99]

What I thought was most interesting on that segment was the body language of Byrne and the looks he was giving when Mooney mentioned about 'not moaning about the past'. Mooney was very civil in his manner but it concealed a few barbs. That aside I dont know what else he could say really. Nothing concrete has been decided on an AIL or LoI plans. The FAI are still waiting for reports so its all as you were until these are forthcoming. All he could say he did say imo without getting in to hot water.

[Kingdom]

https://twitter.com/allislandleague

Not sure if anyone has seen this.


https://twitter.com/allislandleague/status/1188026766943760384?s=20

[A N Mouse]

I had something with more substance myself but tried to edit and deleted the post.

Couldn't quite put my finger on it originally, but finally figured out what annoyed me so about the video.

It's fecking Ollie Byrne's shels only with the whole league!

[pineapple stu]

Agreed. European success and the money it would generate would be great, but I don't think there's any particular indication as to how it would come about.

[Nesta99]

Figure of 5mil being bandied about with league winners getting 800k. Now Peter Collins said something similar so probably where those figures are what people were talking about since - be very interesting to know where such money will be generated and whether it can be sustained. Even if a lucrative TV deal was reached for say 5 years, if it wasnt renewed to similar figures what is the fall back position. How have other leagues eg lower division in Scotland covered their backs in the event of a fall off in sponsorship/TV money. There has to be something there if the last team in 3 division in Scotland is getting something like 7 times what both IL and LoI champions get.

[pineapple stu]

Well we saw with the ITV Digital collapse that clubs hadn't covered their backs in the event of a fall-off.

So yeah, if this were to go ahead and then collapse after five years, where does that leave clubs? Can you go back to two leagues? Would clubs - being encouraged to go with 2/3 year contracts - suddenly find themselves going bust?

The aims are absolutely admirable. They've painted the right picture of the future of the league - I just don't see how it's going to happen.

It's actually a very similar idea to the old PCA document, although in that case, Europe/transfer fees was a measure of success, to be achieved by a much greater investment from the FAI and incremental increases, with a portion of proceeds being reinvested into the league and the FAI. But in this case, Europe/transfer fees almost seem to be the starting point - is it Lucid who's talking about being the 25th ranked league in 6 years? It's like the cart is being put before the horse.

I'd be steering away from this from what I've seen so far.

[Kiki Balboa]

Well we saw with the ITV Digital collapse that clubs hadn't covered their backs in the event of a fall-off.

So yeah, if this were to go ahead and then collapse after five years, where does that leave clubs? Can you go back to two leagues? Would clubs - being encouraged to go with 2/3 year contracts - suddenly find themselves going bust?

The aims are absolutely admirable. They've painted the right picture of the future of the league - I just don't see how it's going to happen.

It's actually a very similar idea to the old PCA document, although in that case, Europe/transfer fees was a measure of success, to be achieved by a much greater investment from the FAI and incremental increases, with a portion of proceeds being reinvested into the league and the FAI. But in this case, Europe/transfer fees almost seem to be the starting point - is it Lucid who's talking about being the 25th ranked league in 6 years? It's like the cart is being put before the horse.

I'd be steering away from this from what I've seen so far.


Clubs go Bust now in the current format.

[pineapple stu]

That's not really an argument for a new format though.

In fact, that's not really an argument of any sort at all really.

[Nesta99]

I vaguely remember clubs getting money to upgrade floodlights to suit Sky Sports coverage back in the 90's. The TV deal didnt happen in the end so money recieved from the FAI in advance to get lights up to TV coverage needs ended up as loans to be paid back to the FAI - is this a strange dream or is there something to this really vague recall??

[pineapple stu]

Nope, it happened.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/national-league-may-get-more-money-from-sky-television-1.75760

Different times though. Not a hope in hell of this happening now -


Under UEFA rules a country's football association when agreeing television coverage must have the permission of associations potentially affected by that coverage. With matches from the Premiership being widely seen here, the FAI are entitled to compensation for lost crowds at games here.

[Mr_Parker]

https://twitter.com/allislandleague

Not sure if anyone has seen this.


https://twitter.com/allislandleague/status/1188026766943760384?s=20


Another video version of the presentation

https://www.instagram.com/p/B4FrSXPAtGb/?igshid=eueqgfg2c914

[Buller]

Another video version of the presentation

https://www.instagram.com/p/B4FrSXPAtGb/?igshid=eueqgfg2c914

Wow, you can really see Lucid has been working on these plans for years. Very professional and he has a great way of expressing his ideas clearly... really worked the room!

[Nesta99]

Another video version of the presentation

https://www.instagram.com/p/B4FrSXPAtGb/?igshid=eueqgfg2c914

Not the first time Dundalk havent featured in AIL chatter....

You seem to have significant contempt for this Mr Parker, or is it just being reserved until there are concrete finances in place? There has been a tendancy for LoI fans to look down on IL over the years so has this swayed peception among IL fans? It is concievable that (bar Linfield maybe) the early years of an AIL would be generally dominated by LoI clubs. Short term pain for long term gain has to be part of Lucid's selling point...

[Nesta99]

Nope, it happened.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/national-league-may-get-more-money-from-sky-television-1.75760

Different times though. Not a hope in hell of this happening now -

Thanks for that Stu! I really was questioning recall and where SKY were influencing LoI money and it ending up as a burden rather than benefit to clubs here.

[Mr_Parker]

Not the first time Dundalk havent featured in AIL chatter....

You seem to have significant contempt for this Mr Parker, or is it just being reserved until there are concrete finances in place? There has been a tendancy for LoI fans to look down on IL over the years so has this swayed peception among IL fans? It is concievable that (bar Linfield maybe) the early years of an AIL would be generally dominated by LoI clubs. Short term pain for long term gain has to be part of Lucid's selling point...

I don't have contempt for the idea, but have concerns that people are rushing to support something, that as you say, offers nothing concrete. There have been North-South initiatives/competitions for decades. Not one survives. The motivation to support the Lucid plan for some clubs must be questioned, particularly with some LOI clubs, who are desperate to grasp any straw purely based on the big numbers being flashed in front of them, rather than solid business and sporting reasons.

My contempt is reserved for some in the Southern media, who have belittled what NIFL and their clubs have achieved in developing, good facilities, and sustainable and strong league, and then play the political card by referring to NIFL clubs as Unionist, Nationalist, Catholic and Protestant.

[Nesta99]

Fair comment! I san see why some clubs would be drawn in to anything that potentially offers greater revenue - Dundalk, if not top of the heap now would certainly have been circa 2011/12. As for the media commentary, I havent paid too much attention. What IL clubs have done to develop facilities has to be lauded but how many have had significant Stormont/public money backing? Have things changed socially that clubs' general support base are no longer aligned along religious or political peruasions?

[Mr_Parker]

Fair comment! I san see why some clubs would be drawn in to anything that potentially offers greater revenue - Dundalk, if not top of the heap now would certainly have been circa 2011/12. As for the media commentary, I havent paid too much attention. What IL clubs have done to develop facilities has to be lauded but how many have had significant Stormont/public money backing? Have things changed socially that clubs' general support base are no longer aligned along religious or political peruasions?

Funding has come from various pots of money including UEFA and public money as well as self financing. The religious or political make up of the fans of a NIFL club is as relevant as that of a LOI club.

[EatYerGreens]

That's not really an argument for a new format though.

In fact, that's not really an argument of any sort at all really.

To put it in basic terms : Irish clubs are generally run on a shoestring.

An AIL league offers a chance for them to become more financially viable, through more revenue in the game.

Ask a poor person if they'd rather remain poor - or have a shot at being financially stable.

Why couldn't clubs go back to 2 leagues if it didn't work out and they needed to ? This could be expressly agreed with UEFA in advance (I see no reason why they wouldn't agree to it).

[EatYerGreens]

Not the first time Dundalk havent featured in AIL chatter....

You seem to have significant contempt for this Mr Parker, or is it just being reserved until there are concrete finances in place? There has been a tendancy for LoI fans to look down on IL over the years so has this swayed peception among IL fans? It is concievable that (bar Linfield maybe) the early years of an AIL would be generally dominated by LoI clubs. Short term pain for long term gain has to be part of Lucid's selling point...

There is also a tendency among a significant number of IL fans to look down on the LOI. Spend a few minutes on their forum and you'll see it.

Views such as the LOI being a financial basketcase, and the AIL being all about the LOI needing clubs from the north.

[EatYerGreens]

Funding has come from various pots of money including UEFA and public money as well as self financing. The religious or political make up of the fans of a NIFL club is as relevant as that of a LOI club.

I'd disagree on that. We can't pretend that religion and politics doesn't influence and polarise every aspect of life in Northern Ireland, because it clearly does.

Football in the north is dominated by clubs from unionist areas or traditions. Just go through in your head all the clubs and you'll see it. That has influenced heavily how the north looks at things in football. The IFA (who's members are drawn up from clubs) has a largely unionist mindset - as seen by its refusal to change the flag or anthem of the NI team, and by the farce around the British anthem being sung at IFA Cup Finals regardless of who features in them. The vast majority of supporters of clubs in the IL are from a unionist background. This is clear form the demographics of the areas the clubs are from, the flags and banners at games etc. A large portion of them want nothing to do with an all-island league out of ideology and politics. That is evident on forums.

To pretend that religion and politics is irrelevant to all of this is to refuse to see the obvious. There isn't a vaguely popular part of NI life that isn't heavily influenced by religion and politics, and football is no different

[pineapple stu]

To put it in basic terms : Irish clubs are generally run on a shoestring.

An AIL league offers a chance for them to become more financially viable, through more revenue in the game.

Ask a poor person if they'd rather remain poor - or have a shot at being financially stable.

Why couldn't clubs go back to 2 leagues if it didn't work out and they needed to ? This could be expressly agreed with UEFA in advance (I see no reason why they wouldn't agree to it).
But again, you've not given a single shred of evidence that this will improve things as you say it will. What about increased travel and security costs? What about the majority of the IL that will effectively be relegated?

When it comes to strategic plans, "Why couldn't it work?" just isn't good enough when it comes to mitigating risks.

[Mr_Parker]

To put it in basic terms : Irish clubs are generally run on a shoestring.

An AIL league offers a chance for them to become more financially viable, through more revenue in the game.

Ask a poor person if they'd rather remain poor - or have a shot at being financially stable.

Why couldn't clubs go back to 2 leagues if it didn't work out and they needed to ? This could be expressly agreed with UEFA in advance (I see no reason why they wouldn't agree to it).

There would be no leagues to go back to. If this plan went ahead, then for example, NIFL would be folded. That in itself raises another question. No where in Lucids numbers does he demonstrate who would pick up the tab for broken TV deals, sponsorship other related contracts and redundancy payments for the staff?

[Mr_Parker]

I'd disagree on that. We can't pretend that religion and politics doesn't influence and polarise every aspect of life in Northern Ireland, because it clearly does.

Football in the north is dominated by clubs from unionist areas or traditions. Just go through in your head all the clubs and you'll see it. That has influenced heavily how the north looks at things in football. The IFA (who's members are drawn up from clubs) has a largely unionist mindset - as seen by its refusal to change the flag or anthem of the NI team, and by the farce around the British anthem being sung at IFA Cup Finals regardless of who features in them. The vast majority of supporters of clubs in the IL are from a unionist background. This is clear form the demographics of the areas the clubs are from, the flags and banners at games etc. A large portion of them want nothing to do with an all-island league out of ideology and politics. That is evident on forums.

To pretend that religion and politics is irrelevant to all of this is to refuse to see the obvious. There isn't a vaguely popular part of NI life that isn't heavily influenced by religion and politics, and football is no different

Of course Politics will play a part, but what I am saying is that it is irrelevant to relate that to fans. Why did some journalists feel the need to mention Cliftonville fans as Catholics and Nationalists. Surely most LOI fans are the same. Why not mention that, for example, Cork have mainly Catholic supporters or Rovers are mainly supported by Nationalists. There is no relevance.

[Mr_Parker]

There is also a tendency among a significant number of IL fans to look down on the LOI. Spend a few minutes on their forum and you'll see it.

Views such as the LOI being a financial basketcase, and the AIL being all about the LOI needing clubs from the north.

Recent history has demonstrated has shown that several LOI clubs have suffered much more from financial distress compared to their counterparts in the NIFL.

[Nesta99]

There is some real nitty gritty issues of an AIL league above. In N.I. and by extension the I.L pluralist reality exists. This has to be overcome by an AIL and finances are the sweetener or carrot to look beyond history. Now maybe the IL has moved on from the relevence of political or religious background and it is LoI that hasnt. It's a discussion that is needed. The 'need' to mention such things is indicitave of this as within LoI there isnt the historical baggage that is assumed to exist north of the border. Maybe all that is needed is a reassurance. We will see at the Unite the Union Cup whether there is a heavy policing presence which to me will indicate whether the powers that be feel there is no relevance to past identity of a club and fans also.

[Nesta99]

Recent history has demonstrated has shown that several LOI clubs have suffered much more from financial distress compared to their counterparts in the NIFL.

How long is the NIFL on the go? It isnt a p!ssing match on which is the more financally stable or sustainable. It has been acknowledged only on Friday by the interim FAI CEO that our own house needs to be in order irrespective of a potential AIL. Both need a shot in the arm so hence the Lucid proposal (grand pun there).

[Mr_Parker]

How long is the NIFL on the go? It isnt a p!ssing match on which is the more financally stable or sustainable. It has been acknowledged only on Friday by the interim FAI CEO that our own house needs to be in order irrespective of a potential AIL. Both need a shot in the arm so hence the Lucid proposal (grand pun there).

NIFL started in 2013. Prior to that many financial controls had been put in place due to work done by the clubs and the IFA in the preceding years, that helped give stability.

Club licensing is a perfect example of why many in the North are sceptical of how things operate in the South. It was even admitted at the Dundalk meeting that the Southern licensing process is a tick box exercise. That is far from the rigorous process NIFL clubs go through and must provide monthly reports to the IFA to help confirm that no issues are accruing between license approvals. Have a listen to what Mooney says in that recent podcast, 22 mins in,

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2019/1021/1084789-is-that-the-game-changer-mooney-on-new-league/


In what is a shocking admission, that licensing rules are being ignored, not just FAI requirements, but UEFA license requirements too, in respect of your club! That would just not be allowed by the IFA. How could such different approaches be seen as fair in a new set-up, with 2 different associations taking a different approach to licensing.

[Nesta99]

I will have a listen surely! Licencing was always questioned among LoI fans with some clubs more equal than others, you just have to mention DVDs and Galway to set us Dundalk fans ummm.... 'ranting'. There are other issues you mentioned above though but not elaborated on eg the non issue of (historical?)political or culturel/religion in the NIFL that you claim is a greater issue in LoI. I'm not trying to pin you down, just simply looking for a rationale to some of the opinions you expressed. One of the higher profile questions of IL sides is the apparent disinterest and unprofessional manner in which European participation is treated - managers and players on holidays, grounds booked out for concerts for example. Linfield bucked that trend this year but prior with other clubs it seemed very lax! Not so much an issue for an AIL but hardly a good example of professionalism.

Perth not having a pro licence is what you refer to with Dundalk. There was a work around obviously but imo the situation where there is a pro licence 'mentor' at a club and a senior coach actively pursuing a pro licence is ok and the rules should make allowances. Perth's achievements this season justifies some flexibility. Its also a system that is common in other countries where the 'manager' role doesnt really happen. That particular rule has changed a couple of times now.
What I think is a far more ridiculous rule is where a club's ground is granted a licence if there is planning permission for ground developments submitted. Technically a club could play in a public park and get a licence as long as there is a planning submission which is completely daft especially when the planning process itself is massively flawed in itself. I'm exaggerating of course but United and Oriel Parks can currently stand still indefinitely as long as plans are in the works and keep being renewed. Oriel meets minimum standards but the bar needs raising. This wont happen due to funding issues currently. An AIL would open a lot of doors with funding opportunities for the likes of Dundalk as a border club especially and Im sure a significant part of the thinking at Dundalk FC in backing an AIL.

[EatYerGreens]

But again, you've not given a single shred of evidence that this will improve things as you say it will. What about increased travel and security costs? What about the majority of the IL that will effectively be relegated?

When it comes to strategic plans, "Why couldn't it work?" just isn't good enough when it comes to mitigating risks.

I can't provide you with evidence for what will happen in the future. Particularly for something which is a completely new venture. If evidence is what you need to support this, then you'll never support anything in fairness.

Rather - what can be done is take educated assumptions. For example :

- A league covering a bigger area & population is likely to be of greater interest (all other things being equal) to advertisers, broadcasters, sponsors etc than one which covers a smaller area. This is just how the marketing world works.
- Both the IL and the LOI are badly run currently, and receive zero marketing. It is therefore safe to assume that an AIL would do better than that on both scores (otherwise - why would they bother at all ?). And it's reasonable to assume that (again, other things being equal) a product which is marketed will do better than one which isn't. I think the potential upside here is actually quite big, if it's done well.
- The standard of the top level of an AIL is essentially guaranteed to be better than either the LOI or IL are individually. Because it would combine the best from both. So it would be a higher quality product from Day One.
- The novelty factor alone would give the AIL an initial boost (which could then be built upon to create ongoing interest). People and the media like new stuff. It'd be interesting, fresh, possibly even a little edgy. In short - a much easier sell than 2 leagues which have been around for 98yrs and 138 years and have done little to genuinely excite anyone for about the last 50 of those.
- I can see the attraction of a better TV deal for an AIL than for either the IL or LOI individually. Again - due to newness, scale, improved quality etc. Summer football will be very marketable to help fill schedules - which rules the IL out at the moment (not to mention the quality). I also think no-one has really tried hard to secure a good TV deal for Irish football, because those running it clearly don't have much faith in the product themselves (problem child anyone ?) and have done nothing to get it into a sellable state.

There's some of your evidence there. There are no guarantees available for what will happen in the future, so educated and reasonable assumptions are what we have to work with. And I personally think all the above are pretty reasonable assumptions to make. Personally speaking I just can't see how an AIL WOULDN'T be an improvement on the 2 individuals leagues. As it would be nigh-on impossible to not improve on what we currently have.

[EatYerGreens]

NIFL started in 2013. Prior to that many financial controls had been put in place due to work done by the clubs and the IFA in the preceding years, that helped give stability.

Club licensing is a perfect example of why many in the North are sceptical of how things operate in the South. It was even admitted at the Dundalk meeting that the Southern licensing process is a tick box exercise. That is far from the rigorous process NIFL clubs go through and must provide monthly reports to the IFA to help confirm that no issues are accruing between license approvals. Have a listen to what Mooney says in that recent podcast, 22 mins in,

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2019/1021/1084789-is-that-the-game-changer-mooney-on-new-league/


In what is a shocking admission, that licensing rules are being ignored, not just FAI requirements, but UEFA license requirements too, in respect of your club! That would just not be allowed by the IFA. How could such different approaches be seen as fair in a new set-up, with 2 different associations taking a different approach to licensing.

These sort of flawed objections pop up a lot. As if an AIL would mean just taking what currently happens and perpetuating it in a new structure.

The reality is that a new league would be a completely new start run by different people with new rules etc. I'd expect it to take a harder line on the licensing, as it is aiming to be a professional set up. And the bottom line re the FAI not enforcing licensing properly is that they just don't care. The AIL would be run by people who clearly do care about the concept, want it to work, and want it to prosper.

An AIL would not be business as usual, so any objections assuming it would are almost certainly going to be flawed.