Too many Dublin Clubs?

[Student Mullet]

I'm sure this has been debated before but what does anyone think? Would the premier division be better it there were only the four big Dublin clubs, Shels, Rovers, Bray and UCD. It would reduce the ammount of Dublin Derbys and give the rural teams a better chance.

I remember last season when Bray vs UCD was the big southside derby but now I seem to be going to a derby every second week. They loose their appeal and as Rico would say, this is the entertainment business after all.

[Krstic]

So Bohs and St.Pats are not in the big 4????

[carrickharp]

The only good thing about it is bing a Harps fan up here, get to see more away games.

[BohDiddley]

Nice try.

[drummerboy]

As a Dubliner I agree that there are too many clubs in the EL from the capital. Unfortunately where are the clubs to replace them going to come from. Not sure if I know any non-league teams outside of Dublin who could play in the EL. I know Mullingar Town attempted it a few years ago.

[Hibs4Ever]

UCD - Big :D :D


Bray - Dublin??????

[BohDiddley]

UCD - Big :D :D


Bray - Dublin??????
Guys, as they say on the E. Premiership board, E's avin a larf!

[tiktok]

I think that the population spread in the country is matched by the spread of clubs. A quarter of the clubs are based where a quarter of the population live.

Dublin clubs attendances are low only because the areas where the clubs are based are not representative of large sections of the City, e.g. In real terms Dalymount, Tolka and Inchicore are all pretty much City Center.

The City has spread far from this and it's hard to get people from Lucan, Santry (soon to be remedied) or other outlying regions to identify with the 'city center' teams.

UCD still suffer from the thinking that you have to have gone to the college to support them, so they can't get kids supporting until they reach college age, by which stage those that will go to EL games will probably have picked their teams anyway.

The Regional teams can pretty much draw on an entire county by in large(and often beyond) to get their support base.

The problem is lack of interest, not 6 clubs in a city of 1.2million people

[A face]

Yeah ... it depends on the other clubs around the country to make it so !!

The one thing about Dublin .... if there was one big Northside club and one big Southside one ..... they would do very well, as regards crowds etc. .... Dublin clubs would never have that much vision and thought ... and their infighting would prevent it from ever being realised so it'll never happen, which is great.

[Wiseguy]

To many Dublin clubs alright but who do you get rid of.Pat's and Rovers certainly aren't the force they used to be but they are in the prem on merit.Maybe if there was a northern and southern league with 2 groups of 8 and the top 2 from each group go through to a semi final with much bigger prize money.
Group A
Longford Town
Cork City
Waterford Utd
Galway Utd
St. Pats Ath
Shamrock Rvs
Bray Wnds
UCD

Group B
Shels
Bohs
Drogs
Derry
Harps
Sligo
Dublin City
Athlone

With a lower league consisting of Cobh,Limerick,Monaghan,Kildare,Dundalk,Kilkenny with the bottom team from each group getting relegated and replaced with a team from the lower tier.
Just a thought.

[A face]

Group A
Longford Town
Cork City
Waterford Utd
Galway Utd
St. Pats Ath
Shamrock Rvs
Bray Wnds
UCD



Yeah ... i'd say we'd agree with that alright !! :p

[KR's Post]

Shels, Rovers, Bray and UCD.....
We are a WICKLOW club for f-uck sake....

[A face]

We are a WICKLOW club for f-uck sake....


And why do people start singing "You're just a shít Dublin suburb, a shít Dublin suburb" everytime they seee you ???? :confused: :eek:



:p

[dubman]

I rekon 3 dublin teams.. It's time for the shams dublin city and ucd to go away and die. They are just a drain on the rest. They need to be taken over by the big 3 shels boos and pats .

[bigmac]

doesn't help the non-Dublin clubs that a lot of players want to stay in Dublin and train on their own, only travelling for games - means that if two clubs offer same money and terms to a player they're more likely to stay in Dublin.

[pete]

The big areas of growth in Dublin are outsdie the M50 which are not been catered for by eL clubs. Rovers have attempted to try to in Tallaght but we all know what happening there.

One of either Bohs or Shels needs to move outside the City. Blanchardstown is a massive catchment area & prime supporter area. Pats can be the inner southside dublin club.

Supporters of dublin teams will use excuse of too many clubs for poor attendances but will also complain if suggest they move or merge.

:rolleyes:

[KR's Post]

And why do people start singing "You're just a shít Dublin suburb, a shít Dublin suburb" everytime they seee you ???? :confused: :eek:



:p
Because they are ALL confused and have never seen a map!!!!! ;)

[Ringo]

I rekon 3 dublin teams.. It's time for the shams dublin city and ucd to go away and die. They are just a drain on the rest. They need to be taken over by the big 3 shels boos and pats .
you still wouldn't get into the premier division :p

[sonofstan]

Short answer, yes. Dublin is about as big , very roughly, as Manchester of Liverpool and Turin and a good bit smaller than Rome or Milan each of which have two big clubs (I know, Tranmere, Trastevere etc. I said big clubs) - put another way; there are 10 clubs ( I think, might have forgotten one or two) in the greater London area with a Pop. of close to 10 million - there are 7 in Dublin - I'm including Bray - for 1.2 million.

An all Ireland league with 2 from Dublin, 2 from Belfast I each from Cork, Derry , Limerick, Louth, Lisburn/Portadown and Waterford would have a chance of producing a decent fanbase for each team and a viable existence for clubs.

[KR's Post]

there are 7 in Dublin - I'm including Bray - for 1.2 million.


:eek: :eek: :eek:

[drummerboy]

I see no need for Dublin City other than Rocky’s ego. I admire the guy for his endeavours to keep the club going but they have no ground, no supporters nothing to offer. UCD on the other hand is a different story. Although the crowds are small they have their own ground. Are run very well. They also provide a platform for players who would possibly not get the chance of a university education with their scholarship scheme. I know one young lad who was being courted by some of the lesser clubs across the water who has decided to take an offer of a scholarship with UCD instead. A very wise move IMO.

[tiktok]

there are 10 clubs ( I think, might have forgotten one or two) in the greater London area with a Pop. of close to 10 million - there are 7 in Dublin - I'm including Bray - for 1.2 million.

There are at least fifteen league clubs in London.
No Irish club looks to get 30,000 people in the gates.

1.2 million people is ample to support 6 EL clubs.
Even if all 6 were to get 5,000 for every home game, you're still only talking about getting roughly 2 people in every 100 off their backsides every second weekend.

Pete's post is spot on, the M50 is your cut-off point, it's up to the clubs and the league to raise interest and the profile to get people into the grounds, if shels can fill Landsdowne once, then that proves the interest in live football is there to be tapped into.

Saturation isn't the problem, interest is.

[Ringo]

Short answer, yes. Dublin is about as big , very roughly, as Manchester of Liverpool and Turin and a good bit smaller than Rome or Milan each of which have two big clubs (I know, Tranmere, Trastevere etc. I said big clubs) - put another way; there are 10 clubs ( I think, might have forgotten one or two) in the greater London area with a Pop. of close to 10 million - there are 7 in Dublin - I'm including Bray - for 1.2 million.

An all Ireland league with 2 from Dublin, 2 from Belfast I each from Cork, Derry , Limerick, Louth, Lisburn/Portadown and Waterford would have a chance of producing a decent fanbase for each team and a viable existence for clubs.


The problem is, i want to support Dublin city. If i'd wanted to follow one of the others i would have. Until other counties start producing good teams , its going to stay that way.

[Macy]

In the Greater Manchester connurbation...
United,
City,
Bolton,
Wigan,
Bury,
Stockport,
Rochdale,
Oldham
And if you want to push it Macc Town too.

[pineapple stu]

Hmmm...I think BohDiddley is the only one to take this thread the way it's meant to be taken, but still - was never one to turn down a good argument...!



It's time for the Shams, Dublin City and UCD to go away and die. They are just a drain on the rest.
How are we a drain? Does our massive support base take away from yours? 'Cos I can't think of any other way that claim makes any sense...


If there was one big Northside club and one big Southside one ..... they would do very well, as regards crowds etc. .... It'll never happen, which is great.
Pity - now we'll never catch up on the field with the masive Cork City...oh...wait! ;)


UCD still suffer from the thinking that you have to have gone to the college to support them, so they can't get kids supporting until they reach college age, by which stage those that will go to EL games will probably have picked their teams anyway.
A lot less now. We have links with some of the junior clubs who all get season tickets, which is helping crowds. It's not going to change overnight, but there is more home support at games. The college aspect of it isn't a concern for them. In fact, it seems the only people who actually hold that opinion - and you're not alone by any means - are opposition fans. WHich doesn't really matter!


Supporters of dublin teams will use excuse of too many clubs for poor attendances but will also complain if suggest they move or merge.

True, but other fans will moan at the likes of Dublin City, pointing out that they're a franchise club with no history (don't intend opening that debate again...), yet they'll turn around and suggest the Dublin clubs should merge or uproot - bit of a conflict there surely...?


Dublin is about as big , very roughly, as Manchester of Liverpool and Turin and a good bit smaller than Rome or Milan each of which have two big clubs (I know, Tranmere, Trastevere etc. I said big clubs) - put another way; there are 10 clubs ( I think, might have forgotten one or two) in the greater London area with a Pop. of close to 10 million - there are 7 in Dublin - I'm including Bray - for 1.2 million.
I think that's oversimplified, to be honest. You can't draw the line at big clubs - for a fair comparison, you should count the number of clubs in each city down to the standard of Bray or Dublin City. You'd get a hell of a lot more than ten in London for a start. You say (or imply, anyway) there are ten big clubs in London, but seven clubs in Dublin - you're not comparing like with like, so the comparison's meaningless.

Bottom line - 4 million people in Ireland. About 1.3 million in the greater Dublin area. That's nearly one-third of the population. Seven teams out of 22 - nearly one-third of the teams. Seems fair enough.

[sonofstan]

Tiktok ...Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Palace, Fulham, Charlton, West Ham, Millwall, QPR, Orient, Brentford .. that's 11

Macy, you're right about Manchester, although a place like Oldham is more of a town in its own right than Bray

[Poor Student]

In the Greater Manchester connurbation...
United,
City,
Bolton,
Wigan,
Bury,
Stockport,
Rochdale,
Oldham
And if you want to push it Macc Town too.

My English geography is poor but do Blackburn and Burnley not fall in there too?


Tiktok ...Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Palace, Fulham, Charlton, West Ham, Millwall, QPR, Orient, Brentford .. that's 11

Macy, you're right about Manchester, although a place like Oldham is more of a town in its own right than Bray

Could you add Luton into that group?

[pineapple stu]

Tiktok ...Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Palace, Fulham, Charlton, West Ham, Millwall, QPR, Orient, Brentford .. that's 11
Barnet, AFC Wimbledon (technically not a league club, but they may as well be size-wise, and they will be in a few years), Wycombe Wanderers (?? - I found a few websites mentioning them, though I don't really know where they are. Some websites mention Luton as a London team as well though...)

Then you've got the Conference and possibly the Conference South to come down to Dublin City's level - plenty of London clubs in there...

[Poor Student]

Btw, I couldn't find a figure but if anyone can, there is some astronomical amount of clubs in Buenos Aires. Some right massive ones too.

[tiktok]

Tiktok ...Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Palace, Fulham, Charlton, West Ham, Millwall, QPR, Orient, Brentford .. that's 11

and Watford, Luton Town, Wycombe, Rushden&Diamonds and Barnet make 16, and I'm sure there's probably more ;)

[BohDiddley]

Btw, I couldn't find a figure but if anyone can, there is some astronomical amount of clubs in Buenos Aires. Some right massive ones too.
Dasrih. Those Argie geezers play a lot of football, and you may have noticed that, while they have a weakness for the odd spot of egg-chasing, they don't do much in the way of GAA, or the Argie alternative, AAA.
Hmmm, can there be a pattern here? Does this tell us anything? :eek:

[Bald Student]

they don't do much in the way of GAA
http://www.hurling-club.com.ar/

[sonofstan]

and Watford, Luton Town, Wycombe, Rushden&Diamonds and Barnet make 16, and I'm sure there's probably more ;)

Watford and Luton aren't in London, neither is Wycombe; all three are safely outside the M25 - Barnet and R&D borderline but even if there were 20 clubs in London that would still give each a much bigger potential fanbase than 6 between 1.2 m in Dublin

[Poor Student]

Dasrih. Those Argie geezers play a lot of football, and you may have noticed that, while they have a weakness for the odd spot of egg-chasing, they don't do much in the way of GAA, or the Argie alternative, AAA.
Hmmm, can there be a pattern here? Does this tell us anything? :eek:

They do love tennis and basketball though. While they are passionate for the game so are we. Our problem is we have a tendency to support foreign clubs. While the Dublin clubs could do with spreading out a bit we certainly do not need less of them. How will people not going in Tallaght or Blanchardstown to any of the big four be more likely to go if you took two of them away and left the other two in the same place? The amount of Dublin clubs reflect fairley the demographics and we need to look at why people do not go to games in general.

[BohDiddley]

it's hard to get people from Santry (soon to be remedied) to identify with the 'city center' teams. people
Eh? :confused:

While I'm on, can we knock this Bohs must move to Blanchardstown thing firmly on the head please?
Blanch is a direct and, at match times, short drive or bus ride to the holy ground of Irish football, and is full of Bohs fans, as is its hinterland stretching well into the wilds of Meath. Three miles more from the M50 carpark is not going to deter most people, but moving out may.
Any Bohemian who has an issue with getting to the current location isn't worth having as a fan and sounds to me much like your feckless, thorougly shallow and rootless Shels type. :p
If this moving out to the M50 lark made so much sense, why doesn't every commercial entity in the city centre evacuate? Dalymount/Phibsborough is part of Bohs and we would be a much poorer outfit if we relegated ourselves to the sticks or, God forbid, Donabate.
Dalyer, a mile or so from O'Connell Street and well served by roads that are not cluttered on Friday at 7.15 on, is the natural physical and spiritual home of the one big Dub club.
KBAD starts here!

[sonofstan]

Eh? :confused:

While I'm on, can we knock this Bohs must move to Blanchardstown thing firmly on the head please?
Blanch is a direct and, at match times, short drive or bus ride to the holy ground of Irish football, and is full of Bohs fans, as its hinterland stretching well into the wilds of Meath. Three miles more from the M50 carpark is not going to deter most people, but moving out may.
Any Bohemian who has an issue with getting to the current location isn't worth having as a fan and sounds to me much like your feckless, thorougly shallow and rootless Shels type. :p
If this moving out to the M50 lark made so much sense, why doesn't every commercial entity in the city centre evacuate? Dalymount/Phibsborough is part of Bohs and we would be a much poorer outfit if we relegated ourselves to the sticks or, God forbid, Donabate.
Dalyer, a mile or so from O'Connell Street and well served by roads that are not cluttered on Friday at 7.15 on, is the natural physical and spiritual home of the one big Dub club.
KBAD starts here!

Well said. Part of the problem with support for Dublin clubs might be the opposite of what has been said above; only two of the big clubs still play in their heartland; the others have no clear territory anymore.

[tiktok]

Watford and Luton aren't in London, neither is Wycombe; all three are safely outside the M25 - Barnet and R&D borderline but even if there were 20 clubs in London that would still give each a much bigger potential fanbase than 6 between 1.2 m in Dublin

There no further out in relative terms than Bray is.
Be consistent and compare like with like.

6 clubs / 1.2millions people breaks down a 200,000 people per club, only Shels and Bohs are regularly getting more than 1% of their 'cut' out to support them, but you're going to insist that it's the saturation of clubs that's the problem?

200,000 is pretty much twice the population of Cork (123,000) where there is one club, that regularly attracts 4,000 (3% of their 'cut')

No matter who you compare it to, or how you write it, attendances in the EL is down to lack of interest, and there are plenty people in Dublin to support 6 clubs if they got off their backsides.

[dancinpants]

Btw, I couldn't find a figure but if anyone can, there is some astronomical amount of clubs in Buenos Aires. Some right massive ones too.

What about Serbia!!! :eek: . 7 of the 16 team top division based in Belgrade :eek:

Partizan Beograd
C. Zvezda Beograd
Zeta Golubovci
OFK Beograd
Zemun
Buducnost Podgorica
Radnicki N. Beograd
Hajduk Kula
Smederevo
Obilic Beograd
Zeleznik
Vojvodina Novi Sad
Borac Cacak
Cukaricki Beograd
Sutjeska Niksic
Hajduk Beograd

[sonofstan]

What about Serbia!!!
there's no answer to that

Tiktok - you're right of course. If any of us could get what Cork regularly get we wouldn't have threads like this

[Da Real Rover]

Look at Rovers. On a good night in the first division we attract up to 2000 people and thats just in the First Division. Now sligo town has a rough population of 20000 to 25000. So look at that for a percentage, roughly 8% to 10%.

[monkey magic]

Tiktok ...Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Palace, Fulham, Charlton, West Ham, Millwall, QPR, Orient, Brentford .. that's 11


...watford, wycomb,rushden & diamonds, gillingham even conference clubs like barnet, and daganham & redbridge could be counted, and if were counting bray as dublin, then why not reading and luton.

fact of the matter is that it isnt a case of there being too many clubs, or even where there positioned in the city, the clubs that r dere must do more to promote the game and the fact that there is live football available weekly in this country, at a reasonable price :rolleyes:

look at the likes of fulham, and charlton in london,who dont have huge fan bases and have embarked on large scale drives to get more fans through the turnstiles, if my memory seves me, charlton even got into trouble with gillingham for actively trying to entice fans from their catchment area by offering them special discounts and running advertisements in the local rags about the chance to watch premiership football. while im not encouraging that - i seriously doubt if rovers fans could be converted to bohs :p :D its this kid of proactive approach that needs to be taken be ALL clubs in the land to grow the game here

[BohDiddley]

i seriously doubt if rovers fans could be converted to bohs
Perish the thought!
Though an amnesty for the aforementioned Shels folk, based on their diminished sense of place and a tendency to be over-impressed with short-term gains, could be considered. :p
Now where did I leave that bullet-proof vest?

[Buller]

There is easily room for five clubs!
Rovers have the SouthWest
Shels are going to have the entire North..
Bohs will have the CityCenter
Pats will have the West/CityCenter
UCD will have the SouthEast
And eh, dublin city/home farm can just... eh... yea..
:D

[sonofstan]

Now sligo town has a rough population.

very rough, some of them

[ollie]

very rough, some of them
:D :D

[ollie]

My English geography is poor but do Blackburn and Burnley not fall in there too?

they are in lancashire(spell?)they are a nice bit north of manchester

[rebs23]

There no further out in relative terms than Bray is.
Be consistent and compare like with like.

6 clubs / 1.2millions people breaks down a 200,000 people per club, only Shels and Bohs are regularly getting more than 1% of their 'cut' out to support them, but you're going to insist that it's the saturation of clubs that's the problem?

200,000 is pretty much twice the population of Cork (123,000) where there is one club, that regularly attracts 4,000 (3% of their 'cut')

No matter who you compare it to, or how you write it, attendances in the EL is down to lack of interest, and there are plenty people in Dublin to support 6 clubs if they got off their backsides.

TikTok
Along time since you have been in Cork! 450,000 in the county of whom 300,000 live within 10 miles of the Kinsale Rd Roundabout in the city.
Saying the pop of Cork city is 123,000 is the same as saying the pop of Dublin city is 500,000 (the number living in the city council area).
Percentage wise Cork City FC is doing as well as most of the Dublin clubs. No better no worse.




o

[BohDiddley]

Shels are going to have the entire North..

In your dreams and theirs ...

[Gerrit]

There is easily room for five clubs!
Rovers have the SouthWest
Shels are going to have the entire North..
Bohs will have the CityCenter
Pats will have the West/CityCenter
UCD will have the SouthEast
And eh, dublin city/home farm can just... eh... yea..
:D

I live in the city centre, and no way I'm gonna convert to being a Pats or Bohs fan :D


I think there are not too much in Dublin given the fact that those teams all (maybe apart from Dublin City) made their way to the top flight on a fair way: on the pitch. Can someone help it that different teams from the capital have good results and go in the top flight ? With a bit of less luck Bray and UCD hadn't promoted, and then it was a different story...

The only sad thing is that I like away games outside of the city as I love the bus drives that allow me to see a share of my new home country. Without Shels, how the feck was I ever likely to go to places like Longford, Drogheda or Newbridge ?? People moving to Ireland go to Belfast, Galway, Cork, Limerick, Dublin, maybe Derry. But thanks to soccer I've also seen less famous places such as Drogheda, Portadown and Longford, plus the towns we cross on our way.

So I would like a less concentration of clubs in the capital, but rather than ditching UCD or Dublin City or Rovers or so... If we make it an all-Ireland league we have a much less concentration... I'd say: add the best 3 teams from the North, plus add Galway to have a west coast team in the top flight as well, then you get this:

Cork City
Waterford
Shelbourne
St Pats
Shamrock Rovers
UCD
Bohemians
Finn Harps
Longford Town
Derry City
Bray
Drogheda
Galway Utd
Portadown
Linfield
Glentoran


This would mean: 5 teams out of 16 (30%) from Dublin, two near Dublin (no, Bray is NOT in Dublin), two in Belfast, and then one in other parts of the country that happen to be well-spread.

5 in Dublin, 2 in Belfast, seems logical given the fact we're dealing with the biggest cities in the country. Then there's Galway to serve the West, Cork to serve the South, Finn Harps and Derry for the Northwest, Longford for the central counties, Waterford for the Southeast.
Maybe only Portadown would have problems in finding decent crowds because they're a bit stuck between Belfast and Longford that both have their teams already.

Plus, 16 teams is ideal for a good league.

[Gerrit]

Cities with a huge concentration of clubs:

Athens (ca 50% of the top division: AEK, Panathinaikos, Olympiakos Piraeus, plus approx 4 smaller teams if I'm not wrong)

Reykjavik (Vikingur, Fram, Fylkir, Reykjavik, Breidablik in second div.)

Istanbul (Istanbulspor, Fenerbahce, Galatasaray, Besiktas, plus in second div. Zariyer which is a southern suburb)

Vienna (Rapid, Austria, Admira Wacker - 3 out of 10 teams)

Prague (Slavia Prague, Sparta Prague, Bohemians Prague, plus some smaller ones)

Moscow (Spartak Moscow, Lokomotiv, CSKA Moscow, Dinamo Moscow)

Buenos Aires (mentionned earlier)

London (mentionned earlier)

Tokyo (not sure though which clubs exactly, but there are at least 4 or 5 in the top division)

Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo



and my knowledge of Scotland is not that good, but doesn't Glasgow also have at least 5 or 6 clubs in the higher divisions ?
There's not just Rangers and Celtic, there's also Partick Thistle and Queen's Park in the nationwide divisions. And if I'm not wrong the outskirts also have several teams (help me out with the names please...)



Largest concentration: San Marino, all clubs in the country play in the wide capital area :D