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Donal81
04/05/2005, 11:40 AM
The Sunday Times

The Big Interview: Aiden McGeady
The Bhoy wonder has the world at his feet, and the drive to be a true great, writes Douglas Alexander

When does a boy become a man? Women might argue that most males never cross this imaginary line of development and instead spend their entire lives hopping back and forth across the border to their childhood. Aiden McGeady made one such trip recently, although it was not a lapse into the sort of puerility that should concern Martin O’Neill. After Celtic’s 2-0 defeat by Hearts a month ago, he returned to the cocoon of his family home on Glasgow’s southside. As his dad left the house, McGeady asked him to buy a ball. When John McGeady returned and received the six quid it cost, his son went out into the quiet cul-de-sac and started to kick it around, as if just playing in front of 60,000 supporters at Celtic Park was a dream rather than a reality. A couple of kids blinked in disbelief. Was that really Aiden McGeady of Celtic out in their street, just mucking about with a ball?


Yet as a child of five or six, McGeady would hardly have been as awestruck. He admits that, initially, football seemed less appealing than his Sega Mega Drive, the sort of story that makes youth coaches groan and pine for the good old days when kids ... kicked a ball about in the street. “I wasn’t actually interested in football, I wasn’t at all. Then, when I was eight or nine, my friend was going to train with a football team and asked me if I wanted to go. I went along and as soon as I started kicking the ball I liked it, but it was definitely a late start.”

His father John, a former professional with Sheffield United whose career was curtailed by a cracked kneecap, was ambivalent to his son’s ambivalence to football. “I didn’t put any pressure on him,” he says. “I wanted Aiden to have a profession because of what happened to my career. It was really bizarre the way it first happened. My two brothers have both got sons that are football mad, Aiden’s younger than both of them and we used to go down to Cathkin for a kickaround. I said to my brother, Pat, that I’d take Aiden along to see if he was going to be interested in even kicking the thing. I bought him a wee pair of Maradona football boots and he went up to my brother with the ball at his feet. My brother is six foot and Aiden started moving about in front of him. I said, ‘What’s he trying to do, Pat?’ and Pat said, ‘He’s trying to beat me’. I don’t think he even knew what he had to do, it was just instinct.”

Soon the late starter was making up for lost time. It quickly became apparent in games for Our Lady of the Missions primary school on Saturdays and Busby boys club on Sundays that a latent talent had been tapped. No ball was safe. Having mastered a football, McGeady was soon keeping up a tennis ball 500 times and a golf ball 200 times, after watching a video of his hero, Diego Maradona, doing so. At his father’s insistence, each juggling exercise involved both feet.

“Maybe because I had played the game myself, I realised that Aiden had a gift and that the only way it was going to come to fruition was through proper guidance. I sat down one night with Elaine, my wife, and said, ‘Apart from anything else, I have got a major responsibility here’. There was never any danger of me living my life through him because he had far more natural ability than me.”

John decided to raise the bar: it was time to move Aiden from the nice grass pitches that Busby played on where nice boys applauded each other off at the end. “My friend ran a team in the Gorbals and I thought it would be a good idea for Aiden to start playing with guys who could toughen him up, guys who were a bit streetwise.” Mick Gillespie, who ran Govanhill cubs, had been a schoolboy friend of John’s and played for Queen’s Park. He took responsibility for the next stage of Aiden’s development. “He used to make deals with Aiden before the game. He would say for the first five minutes play two-touch football, the second five minutes do what you like then two-touch again for five minutes. It made him more of a team player, more aware.”

By the time Aiden started at St Ninian’s secondary school, others wanted to make deals with him. Arsenal, Celtic, Manchester United, Liverpool, Chelsea and Manchester City all made overtures. At United, McGeady stood out from the crop of boys brought from England, Scotland and Ireland and Wales to one trial. At Arsenal, John recalls that Aiden, who wore glasses then, looked like “Harry Potter” when handed a top with sleeves that swallowed his tiny arms. However, he didn’t look out of place in the ensuing match against a side from Auxerre in front of Liam Brady and Don Howe. “At the end, Brady came over and said, ‘He’s got all the ability in the world but he wants it too, he’s got that mental toughness’,” adds John. “‘He got kicked a few times but he got the guys back’.”

Aiden was as impressed by Arsenal as they were by him. Of all the English clubs, they were the one who seriously threatened Celtic for his signature as a schoolboy. “I didn’t want to leave home because my dad told me he did it when he was 16 and was homesick, and I didn’t want to go down that path.” There was another factor. George Adams, now head of Rangers’ youth development, but then in charge of Celtic’s schoolboy scouting.

“He was a genuine guy who said what he thought. He would come and watch me play and then phone afterwards to say he was still interested.”



COURTED by clubs but also by countries. There was an interested spectator when McGeady played in that trial at Manchester United. Darren Fletcher had been attracted by the hype that had accompanied McGeady south. “He completely ran the show and stood out a mile against all the best young players in the country,” says Fletcher. “Andy Perry, the chief scout at United, told me he was special and he wasn’t wrong. Afterwards, I met him and told him all about United and what it was like to live down there. I was about 15 or 16 at the time and ready to sign, but he was 12 or 13 and going round a few clubs.”

Fletcher and McGeady shared another dilemma. Whether to play for Scotland, the country of their birth, or Ireland, the country of their heritage. Fletcher had to contend with Sir Alex Ferguson and Roy Keane as aggressive ambassadors for each cause but was always going to choose Scotland despite the fact that his mother, Bridget, is from County Mayo. McGeady slipped through Scotland’s system because Celtic, at that time, forbade their signings from playing schools football of any form for Scotland but had no problem with Ireland, whose sides of the same age were run by the FAI.

“I come from an Irish background, I go over there for holidays [to Gweedore in Donegal where his grandmother, Kitty, lives] but it’s not really anything to do with that, that’s just the way I was brought up,” explains McGeady. “When I was 15 I wanted to play for my country and because I didn’t play for my school, Scotland schoolboys wouldn’t let me. I thought, ‘Fair enough, I’ll just go back to playing normal football with Celtic’, but then Packie Bonner [the former Celtic and Ireland goalkeeper] phoned and asked me to go over for training and I thought, ‘What’s the harm in that?’.

“It was a sort of get-together of the teams. I did quite well and got asked back and was involved with all the teams — 15s, 16s, 17s. After that, I knew the set-up really well and all the boys. When I broke into the first team at Celtic there was all the drama about why I had picked Ireland rather than Scotland, but the thing was I already knew the set-up and wasn’t going to change my mind.”

Despite this assertion, officials at the Scottish Schools FA insist they were innocent and that other players from club sides, who didn’t play for their schools, were selected for the international team at that time. Berti Vogts later made a personal plea for a switch of allegiance in his office at Hampden but it was too late and Brian Kerr has since fast-tracked McGeady into Ireland’s senior squad, giving him his full debut against Jamaica last June. Ireland have a deeper pool of talent than Scotland right now and are therefore more likely to be at the big tournaments that McGeady craves, but the downside is that holding down a place in their squad will be more difficult than if he had opted for the country of his birth. “I have had a few games here and there but I would really like to break through and become a regular. First, you have to do that at your own club. The thing everybody wants to do is play at a World Cup against the best players in the world. I have still got loads of time left to do that but eventually I would like to. 1994 was the first one I watched and I remember Maradona running to the cameras to celebrate his goal against Greece before he was banned.”

One of his uncles went to see an 18-year-old Maradona destroy Scotland at Hampden in 1979. Alan Hansen, who played against him that day, jokes that he is still untying the knots from his legs, but a reminder of this match brings a smile from McGeady for a different reason as he sits talking at a table in the Room restaurant in the salubrious surrounds of One Devonshire Gardens in Glasgow’s west end. “My uncle was at the game with his friend and said, ‘What do you think of that boy Maradona?’ and he said, ‘Nah, I don’t rate him’.”

McGeady lacks the stocky explosiveness of his hero or Wayne Rooney but he is a box of tricks, perhaps the closest thing Celtic have unearthed to Jimmy Johnstone since ‘Jinky’ tormented defenders in the late 1960s and early 1970s. He has been used largely wide on the left this season by O’Neill, a position which allows him to cut inside onto his slightly stronger right foot, as he recently did to score a memorable goal against Dunfermline, his fifth of the season.

Donal81
04/05/2005, 11:40 AM
JOHN McGEADY’s career at Sheffield United was starting as Johnstone’s was ending at the same club and both were right-wingers, although different in style. McGeady senior’s main asset was speed. “I made my debut when I was 17 in the equivalent of what is the Premiership now, the old First Division, on Boxing Day 1975 and I played 11 first-team games on the trot. Then we played Manchester City just after they had won the League Cup. There were a couple of minutes to go and I was going down the right wing at pace. I went past Willie Donachie and all my weight was on my left foot and he came in and his studs caught my left knee cap. It was an accident, he didn’t mean it, but I heard a crack and when I went for an X-ray they said my kneecap was broken. I wasn’t looked after properly, I think the specialist made a few bad decisions because I broke it another three times and eventually had it removed.” He made it back to the first team before heading to the United States, where the money was better than the football, then came back to briefly play in Scotland, but his injuries had robbed him of his pace and he worked for his father in the building trade, which he hated, before training to become an English teacher, which he loves.

So what does he think when he watches his son teasing experienced defenders? Does he not worry that one day Aiden will also fail to get up from one of their challenges? “Not at all. I didn’t have great balance, but Aiden seems to. When he does get kicked, he absorbs the impact and gets up and gets on with it. Jimmy Johnstone had that, so did Johan Cruyff. Cruyff never had one knee injury in his whole career, just the odd pulled muscle. Nobody got kicked more than Jimmy but he never had a serious injury. I don’t worry because if it’s going to happen, it’s going to happen.”

It already has to another promising young Celtic player. John Kennedy has required a series of operations to rebuild his left knee after a shocking challenge by Ioan Ganea of Romania when he made his Scotland debut last March, and the defender will not return until 2006. A reminder of how precarious football is as a profession to McGeady, if it was necessary after his father’s misfortune.


“It was terrible for John, because he was playing so well at the time and had broken into the first team, but he’s a resilient guy. I think he’ll come back and do well.”

The number of youngsters pressing for first-team places is perhaps reminiscent of the early 1970s when a group, collectively dubbed the Quality Street Kids and including the likes of Kenny Dalglish, Danny McGrain, Lou Macari, George Connelly and Vic Davidson, were pressing Jock Stein for first-team places at the expense of the Lisbon Lions. It remains to be seen whether McGeady, Kennedy, Ross Wallace, Shaun Maloney and David Marshall, who was taught English by John McGeady for two years, can make such an impression on O’Neill’s established team. “Only time will tell really,” replies McGeady, wisely, to this possibility. “We have only played a handful of games between us. It would different if we were all in the team together and playing well.”

He has learned to play patience. His father described him to me as “petulant” in his first year as a professional at Celtic when we spoke a year ago, and McGeady now accepts that he expected too much, too young. “I was 16 and saying to myself, ‘I am going to play in the first team this season’, but I wasn’t ready. If you think I am small now, I was a lot smaller then. I think I was just kidding myself on. Ross [Wallace] played in a testimonial when he was quite young and I just wanted to do the same. Tommy Burns [Celtic’s director of youth development] always says it’s not about when you make your debut, it’s if you stay there. I’ve sort of needed a clip round the ear every so often and I’ve had it off them. The coaching set-up is good at Celtic and I think there’s going to be a few more coming through.”

When McGeady was initially called into first-team training, he hardly distinguished himself. “I had an absolute beast because I was just so nervous. The ball was coming to me and going under my foot and everyone was shouting at me.”

He is aware that a player with his trickery — his favourite is an improvised version of the Cruyff turn — can easily earn a reputation as a show-off. “If I am keeping the ball up that’s just to improve my control, I would never do anything like that in a game. Sometimes Ronaldinho is described as doing too many tricks but as long as there is an end product then nobody can really complain. Earlier in the season, I would get to the byline and my crosses wouldn’t be as good as I thought they should. Lately, since I have come back into the team, I have been setting up more goals from those positions which is pleasing because that’s really your job when you are playing left or right midfield.”

It is easy to forget that it is only a year to the week since he made his debut for Celtic, in which he scored against Hearts at Tynecastle. Already, he has seen off Juninho, who failed to consistently provide the extra flair O’Neill was looking for and has gone back to Brazil. Then, just when it seemed McGeady might have tied down one of those precious first-team places, Craig Bellamy arrived on loan from Newcastle to provide another alternative of speed and movement to Celtic’s manager. He has had to be content with a place on the bench for the last two Old Firm games, despite good form in the run-up to them, but appreciated O’Neill taking the time to explain his omission to accommodate Bellamy.

His most striking performance so far was against AC Milan in the Champions League, at Parkhead in December, when he terrorised Fabricio Coloccini, the Italians’ makeshift right-back, and left a lasting impression on Paolo Maldini. “He has talent, a good personality and calmness,” said the great man afterwards. “Celtic lack a player who can beat people, who can do something different to alter the course of a game and perhaps he can become it.” McGeady glows when this compliment is relayed to him, the mask he keeps on his emotions slipping for perhaps the only time in an hour or so of chat. “The AC Milan game was the first Champions League game I played in where I realised I could maybe cut it at this level. It’s unbelievable to get a compliment from a player like Maldini. He’s been playing at the highest level for near enough 20 years.”

Indeed, he is old enough to be McGeady’s dad. That may have been the night when the boy wonder became a man, although he should still be permitted a few trips back to his childhood with a ball when the mood takes him.

Stuttgart88
04/05/2005, 12:02 PM
McGeady slipped through Scotland’s system because Celtic, at that time, forbade their signings from playing schools football of any form for Scotland but had no problem with Ireland, whose sides of the same age were run by the FAI.

Is that how it really was?

Playing him in a full competitive match would be a big gamble but he should have seen more friendly action by now IMO.

eirebhoy
04/05/2005, 12:53 PM
Is that how it really was?
yep. :)

Stuttgart88
04/05/2005, 1:20 PM
Interesting!

I thought it was that the SFA wouldn't have chosen him regardless of who he played for, because he played for a pro club rather than his school. Good old Celtic. Looking after the Motherland! :)

Donal81
04/05/2005, 1:28 PM
I've been trying to get an article by some chap called Alan Campbell called "Who's to blame in sorry tale of the one that got away?" about McGeady. I think it was for a Scottish paper called the Sunday Herald. I was told it reflects the typical view in the Scottish media of the whole thing. The paper charges for its archives, however. If anyone happens to have a subscription to it, it would be interesting to read it.

Stuttgart88
04/05/2005, 1:30 PM
The Daily Record printed a bilious article on McGeady at Christmas time. Poorly researched & totally bitter.

Green Tribe
04/05/2005, 1:38 PM
The Daily Record printed a bilious article on McGeady at Christmas time. Poorly researched & totally bitter.

unlike the daily record ..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

NeilMcD
04/05/2005, 1:48 PM
Lets be honest if it happened that an Irish lad went and played for Scotland or England we would be fuming too.

SaucyJack
04/05/2005, 2:39 PM
Lets be honest if it happened that an Irish lad went and played for Scotland or England we would be fuming too.


at this point no one can really fume if an Irish born player decided to play elsewhere, it'd just be hypocritical. I'd learn to live with it, turnabout is fair play and all that.

Donal81
04/05/2005, 2:50 PM
Lets be honest if it happened that an Irish lad went and played for Scotland or England we would be fuming too.

We had better get used to it. Without wishing to get too political, if this country doesn't change sharpish, the next few decades will see a rash of talented kids playing around Dublin and then getting to 18 and declaring for Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and the Ukraine.

Peadar
04/05/2005, 2:54 PM
Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and the Ukraine.

...and the rest!
See here. (http://www.cso.ie/statistics/personsclassbyplaceofbirth2002.htm)

NeilMcD
04/05/2005, 3:42 PM
Thats a question I often ask people when they are been racist. Ask a taxi driver, which country has the highest amount of emmigrants in Ireland and see what he says. England and Wales and the USA are by far the highest.

Donal81
04/05/2005, 3:57 PM
Thats a question I often ask people when they are been racist. Ask a taxi driver, which country has the highest amount of emmigrants in Ireland and see what he says. England and Wales and the USA are by far the highest.

Very true although 61,000 from the EU accession states have registered with tax authorities since May 2004, 30,000 from Poland, 15,000 from Latvia (The census was from 2002).

We'd want to be a bit more inclusive by the time Polish-Irish kids start growing up and not only for sporting reasons.

I'm focusing on this end of it as I reckon that English, Welsh, American, Australian immigrants' kids would assimilate better into the general population. Just a perception...

NeilMcD
04/05/2005, 3:59 PM
Well I am all for lots of girls coming over from Poland and Latvia etc the more the merrier in my view.

Fergie's Son
04/05/2005, 9:13 PM
Thats a question I often ask people when they are been racist. Ask a taxi driver, which country has the highest amount of emmigrants in Ireland and see what he says. England and Wales and the USA are by far the highest.

It's not racist per se to question immigration policies. If someone is honing in on one group then that's fine to point out the defficiencies but calling someone racist just because they think there is too much immigration to Ireland is untenable.

dr_peepee
04/05/2005, 10:45 PM
Isn't there some Nigerian born player making waves for us at underage level??

eirebhoy
04/05/2005, 10:54 PM
Isn't there some Nigerian born player making waves for us at underage level??
Emeka Onwublko?

Don't know anything about him other than he scores a few. :)

Fergie's Son
05/05/2005, 2:10 AM
Reading that census is sobering reading. What a massive change in less than 10 years. Some may view this as a good thing whereas some see it as a bad thing but the change is profound.

Cowboy
05/05/2005, 9:18 AM
Reading that census is sobering reading. What a massive change in less than 10 years. Some may view this as a good thing whereas some see it as a bad thing but the change is profound.

Most economists will tell you its essential for continued economic growth

NeilMcD
05/05/2005, 9:22 AM
It's not racist per se to question immigration policies. If someone is honing in on one group then that's fine to point out the defficiencies but calling someone racist just because they think there is too much immigration to Ireland is untenable.



Read my post again. I said when somebody is been racist. I did not say that questioning emmigration policies is racist in itself but it is possible to be raciest while questioning emmigration. I have come across it many times that people start off behind the banner of been concerned with emmigration policies and the future of the economy etc but soon drift of in to racist babble. At no point did I say it was not valid to question emmigration policies or that the questioning in itself is racist. It is quite useful to question but as the person said above most econimist say that it is vital for growth in the economy.

Donal81
05/05/2005, 11:17 AM
Reading that census is sobering reading. What a massive change in less than 10 years. Some may view this as a good thing whereas some see it as a bad thing but the change is profound.

Sorry Fergie's Son but do you only pop up when this subject comes up? I haven't read any posts from you since your assertion that Muslims were set to become the dominant group in France in the next 20 years or whatever it was.

Green Tribe
05/05/2005, 11:37 AM
We had better get used to it. Without wishing to get too political, if this country doesn't change sharpish, the next few decades will see a rash of talented kids playing around Dublin and then getting to 18 and declaring for Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and the Ukraine.

:rolleyes: I don't think this will be a big issue, a lot of the workers coming from the new EU countries do not want to stay in Ireland/UK longterm. Most are just here on a short-term basis. The majority want to go back to their own countries. Anyway, you can't be bitter, plenty of 2nd generation Irish have done/will continue to do the same for us.

Donal81
05/05/2005, 11:49 AM
:rolleyes: I don't think this will be a big issue, a lot of the workers coming from the new EU countries do not want to stay in Ireland/UK longterm. Most are just here on a short-term basis. The majority want to go back to their own countries. Anyway, you can't be bitter, plenty of 2nd generation Irish have done/will continue to do the same for us.

Sorry Kerr's Tribe, maybe you misread my post. I was saying that if the country doesn't become more inclusive of those coming into the country, it's not going to be pleasant and not just from a sporting context. What do you think I said? I thought I was fairly straight.

Green Tribe
05/05/2005, 12:04 PM
Sorry Kerr's Tribe, maybe you misread my post. I was saying that if the country doesn't become more inclusive of those coming into the country, it's not going to be pleasant and not just from a sporting context. What do you think I said? I thought I was fairly straight.

Oh right, fair enough Donal, sorry my head is up my arsse, I am ill with the cold, my head is thumping! :( :eek: :D

Donal81
05/05/2005, 12:43 PM
Oh right, fair enough Donal, sorry my head is up my arsse, I am ill with the cold, my head is thumping! :( :eek: :D

No hassle, get well soon :)

Green Tribe
05/05/2005, 12:59 PM
cheers, ! :D

Fergie's Son
06/05/2005, 6:53 AM
Most economists will tell you its essential for continued economic growth

And many say that it is not. That it leads to wage-deflation and pressure on services such as health-care and infrastructure. George Borjas of the Kennedy School of Business (Harvard) is a (if not the) preeminent labour economist.

He points out that mass-immigration of unskilled labour hurts economies a lot more than it helps them. Indeed, he doesn't even get into the social costs invovled. Do be careful with saying that just because an "economist" says it is the right thing to do that it automatically means that it is the right thing to do. These are the same people who brought us the gold standard, junk bonds and derivative trading!

Fergie's Son
06/05/2005, 6:57 AM
Interesting reading:

http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~GBorjas/FullBio.html

He's a cuban immigrant himself. Both the Economist and the Financial Times are starting to quote him regularly.

And Donal81, maybe you need to think about the issue rather than focus on the number of posts I have. France will, according to the Econimist, have a majority Moslem population in 2050 (I was incorrect with the year).given current birth and immigration rates.

PM me and I will try and scan the article and send it to you.

Donal81
06/05/2005, 9:21 AM
Interesting reading:

http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~GBorjas/FullBio.html

He's a cuban immigrant himself. Both the Economist and the Financial Times are starting to quote him regularly.

And Donal81, maybe you need to think about the issue rather than focus on the number of posts I have. France will, according to the Econimist, have a majority Moslem population in 2050 (I was incorrect with the year).given current birth and immigration rates.

PM me and I will try and scan the article and send it to you.

Believe me Fergie's Son, I think about the issue all the time as well as speaking with those involved with small businesses in Ireland. These guys would crumble in a week without immigration - they would have no staff. The Economist has made a prediction 45 years from now: what does that mean? The Economist has gotten it wrong in the past (vehemently behind war in Iraq - threw themselves in behind the Bush administration only to question motives after the war began...Nice one, lads). And even it that is the case in France, so what? If you start getting into national identity and culture, you're on shaky, shaky ground. Ireland was militantly Catholic and Irish-speaking 150 years ago. 45 years ago, you couldn't buy condoms and women had to stay at home if they got married. Culture and identities change - they have to. I'll PM you now.

Stuttgart88
06/05/2005, 9:37 AM
The Economist: the most consistent contrary indicator of house prices in the last deacde!

Cowboy
06/05/2005, 10:17 AM
And many say that it is not. That it leads to wage-deflation and pressure on services such as health-care and infrastructure. George Borjas of the Kennedy School of Business (Harvard) is a (if not the) preeminent labour economist.



perhaps you could explain how wage deflation occurs in a minimum wage economy. If it were doctors and lawyers wage deflation would be no bad thing.

Cowboy
06/05/2005, 10:19 AM
And Donal81, maybe you need to think about the issue rather than focus on the number of posts I have.

Its kinda difficult to focus on the issues when the only posts you seem to make are a result of the immigration issue. Makes one wonder what your agenda is, perhaps you could clarify this for us.

livehead1
06/05/2005, 12:44 PM
how about talkin bout football...

Cowboy
06/05/2005, 12:45 PM
yep your right

Donal81
06/05/2005, 1:07 PM
how about talkin bout football...

Not this again...You don't have to read it if you don't want to!

livehead1
06/05/2005, 2:16 PM
thats just bull. ya have to read the thread to see wat its on about. and i openned the thread as it was titled "aiden mcgeady" little did i know it would contain far more bullsh*t regarding useless political and racist arguments/discussion. there are areas where u can discuss this but surely not on the football board, thats common sense

Donal81
06/05/2005, 3:53 PM
Sorry mate but there's loads of talk here about Aiden McGeady. If things go off-topic, who cares? Sport/politics/culture, etc, are all linked and would it not be extremely boring if all that was ever mentioned here was pure and utter football, ignoring elements that make up its attraction?

livehead1
06/05/2005, 3:56 PM
i get your point and yes it would be boring and thats why theres other rooms. you know wat i mean tho

Fergie's Son
06/05/2005, 5:09 PM
perhaps you could explain how wage deflation occurs in a minimum wage economy. If it were doctors and lawyers wage deflation would be no bad thing.

Minimum wages simply aren't enforced. There is a minimum wage in America but illegal labour has obliterated it. The minimum wage in California since 1994 has fallen by more than $1 and that takes inflation into account. That is a disastor for the working class. You can't have an endless supply of cheap labour and expect wages to be stable or even to increase. The business lobby wants cheap labour because it lowers their fixed costs which is good for them but bad for the economy. Put another way, cheap labour hurts the poor the most because it introduces even more competition. It emmasculates the unions and increases the burden on basic infrastructures from health care to the school systems.

It's a short-term answer that helps neither Ireland or the immigrants themselves or the countries they came from.

Donal81
06/05/2005, 5:30 PM
i get your point and yes it would be boring and thats why theres other rooms. you know wat i mean tho

I know what you mean mate but it would be an awful pain in the hole if every time someone mentions politics, a moderator steps in and instructs us to bring it to another room.

Fergie's Son
06/05/2005, 5:39 PM
I know what you mean mate but it would be an awful pain in the hole if every time someone mentions politics, a moderator steps in and instructs us to bring it to another room.

I agree. Sometimes these things just take on a life of their own

Cowboy
06/05/2005, 7:02 PM
Minimum wages simply aren't enforced.


In Ireland they are (unless you can give an example otherwise) hence the dispute with the Turkish construction company.

Fergie's Son
07/05/2005, 7:08 AM
In Ireland they are (unless you can give an example otherwise) hence the dispute with the Turkish construction company.

That, however, is just one example. An example that an exception proves the rule. They are not being enforced on construction sites or in the agricultural sector.

A large, open supply of labour logically leads to a deflation of wages. If wages for the lower classes are deflated then costs will rise insoafar as the wages simply can't sustain a consumer socieity. The nonsense that immigrant labour can sustain pension plan is proven by wage deflation.

Cowboy
07/05/2005, 9:32 AM
That, however, is just one example. An example that an exception proves the rule. They are not being enforced on construction sites or in the agricultural sector.



Rather than sweeping statements can you provide actual evidence of this ?

Fergie's Son
08/05/2005, 8:40 PM
Rather than sweeping statements can you provide actual evidence of this ?

It's a general consensus that unskilled labour will work for less than minimum wage. It's why the business lobby wants more and more immigration because they their labour costs fall.

Thankfully, we don't have unfettered capitalism because if we did, we sould still have a 7-day working week, child labour and no environmental protection. An unending labour supply is not good for either the worker or the economy in the long term.

Cowboy
09/05/2005, 11:45 AM
It's a general consensus that unskilled labour will work for less than minimum wage. I

Another sweeping statement without any hard evidence, have you nothing more than anecdotal evidence and hearsay?

Fergie's Son
09/05/2005, 4:34 PM
Another sweeping statement without any hard evidence, have you nothing more than anecdotal evidence and hearsay?

Look at the growth of the "underground" economy in the past 8 years. Fairly well documented by several Irish econimists with particular emphasis in agriculture, construction and the restaurant industry.

Cowboy
09/05/2005, 5:02 PM
the underground economy was always here, did not need emmigrants to create and/or sustain it. I'm afraid I still dont see how you can be sure that immigration leads to wage deflation.

Fergie's Son
09/05/2005, 6:13 PM
the underground economy was always here, did not need emmigrants to create and/or sustain it. I'm afraid I still dont see how you can be sure that immigration leads to wage deflation.

Well, the underground economy has grown.

Look at it this way, if you have a near unlimited source of labour then it is logical for prices to fall when supply outweighs demands. California is a great example of this (and it is the perfect place to study the affects of mass immigration). Real wages have fallen by more than $1. That means that, despite inflation, wages across the board have actually fallen. We can further take from this that wages on the lower-end of the spectrum have fallen drastically.

Borjas has written extensively on this and his gaining a significant following among economists.

He's now writing about the damage mass immigration does to the immigrant's home country. It causes a brain drain and allows the governments of those counties to remain inefficient and corrupt as they have less incentive (and pressure) to change because of the safety valve of immigration.