LoI 2nd & 3rd August

[total hoofball]

Not shocked by that. Shels have been on a run of winning games without playing consistently well and I was concerned after last weekends positive results there might have been early some champagne cork popping inside players and some fans minds. There was always plenty of rope to hang ourselves with Cobh (a), Longford (a), Bray (h), Drogheda (a), Limerick (h)

Title race firmly back on between Shels, Drogheda and Longford

[D24Saint]

Problem for us is we've only three home games left of nine, and have only one away point all season.
H
Could have been so much different of course not just if we'd not lost players (Farrugia particularly annoying as he's still in college, but also O'Neill, Davis and Molloy), but also injuries and suspensions haven't helped. Josh Collins, Seán MacDonald, Evan Osam, Kearns of course - they've all missed a lot of games, and we just don't have the squad for that. And even when we didn't lose a player - Scales - we've still gotten messed around.

Obviously there's a long way to go yet and it's only a few weeks since we beat Harps to put daylight the other way, so things can change. But if nothing else, we've another 8 scholarship players coming in shortly and worst case scenario is we should be challenging for the First Division title next season. And obviously fair dues to Harps if they can reach the play-offs - or even stay up - even though I do think Horgan is an absolute blight on the league. :)

They really have to get the fixture list sorted asap. The gaps between fixtures, gaps between home games, big games on Mondays , long trips on Mondays. It's a joke.

[pineapple stu]

Yup. And now into the last 9 league games of the season, we effectively have the FAI Cup and the LSC only just starting. A club going on a run in both competitions will be swamped.

[oriel]

The ones I speak to aren't revelling, they are marvelling and stunned at the pace of the decline. Dundalk fans were initially chuffed that Cork fell down the table and are no longer rivals. However, that is old news, this is something new. People who have followed the LOI know that what can happen one club could happen to any club, we are all in the same boat.

Clubs do not usually go from being in the top two for five consecutive years, cup finalists for four consecutive years, and double winners two years ago to this. Also Cork have been the beneficiary of massive European money in this time, probably adding up to 2-3 million.

The rumours are that the cash is gone and they have no nest egg to get them out of their slump. They have players on long contracts who are crocked and past it and have an army of staff behind an unqualified "manager" who is out of his depth.

The scale of the mess is unprecedented. Other clubs have got in troubling by borrowing for success. However, Cork had everything going for them, big crowds, big European cash, success, transfer revenue, and they still screwed it up.

If a club can mess it up so badly given all those advantages, all other clubs should be very worried.

Agree with this, it’s certainly the speed of the decline of Cork that I just can’t understand. This is still a full time training squad who should at a very minimum be comfortable in mid table. The players must have almost given up and that has to unacceptable.

Im sure most are still on decent contracts, wages wise. It’s a real pity as Cork is one of our great sporting cities / areas, and were easily the best supported in LOI for home league games from around 2014-2018.

[Nesta99]

It should be added that there shouldnt be a supporter across the league that would gloat at Cork's demise, Dundalk and Rovers as the current top two were not so long ago in the first division slugging it out for promotion (with one Vinny Perth practicing the dark arts in the Rovers side then). There isnt a club that hasnt gone through the full cycle of boom and bust!

Do I care about Cork's current stock? No not particularly. Can I empathise with Cork supporters frustration? Absolutely!!

[Martinho II]

see in the first division that both shels,drogs and us have to play Bray and considering Bray want to make the playoffs its all to play for and I wouldnt be surprised to see a shock in one of these games!

[brendy_éire]

UCD were well in that game until Byrne went off. They missed him when he got injured

They were, and even after we went 2-1 up, I still wasn't confident.
Usual story again from ourselves or not taking chances when we get them.
A win's a win though, and moves us into third place on goal difference.

[sullanefc]

Cotter is a Caulfield light manager - same tactics, same bizzare team selection, refuses to see the writing on the wall that real change is needed rather than hoping that they can play in to form.

The Seanie title might actually have been a sort of negative in the long run as it covered over the cracks for a bit too long and allowed the rot to get hold.

There doesnt even seem to be the passion or fight in the players that you always associate with Cork teams regardless of quality or style.
Ya. Cotter was Caulfields assistant for 5 years. Expecting him to start playing a completely different style was never going to happen IMO. He is Caulfield light but with far less intensity. The players don't look like they are being inspired by him. 0 passion.

I don't know how winning a league could be a negative but If Maguire doesn't win the league in 2017, does Caulfield lose his job? I don't know if the old board would have done it, but there would have been large dissent from the stands, myself included. There were calls for him to be let go in 2016...

Ya. No passion in the players at the moment.


I've been hearing that Cotter is by no means out the door in November and that the board are considering him for the full time job? I dont think he has a pro licence and any appointment cant be very underwhelming if the club want the crowds back. It is the most important appointment in Cork's history so Cotter would be a big risk if it was possible to give him the job. Didnt the ladies manager joing the coaching staff because he had a pro licence? Also out of interest do FORAS have any input to the appointment of a manager or is just left to the board after they are elected - can members call an EGM for ecample if there are question marks over finances, player recruitment policy etc?
There are rumours that Cotter is confident in getting the job. He is deluded if he thinks this. When the job was advertised the board told him to apply. My own feeling was that was done out of courtesy. He feels it is nailed on for him?? Don't know. It would be a disaster if he were appointed.

Fans will have no say in the appointment. Only the elected board.


Cork fans not happy with the board, whispers of financial diffiulty having played in Europe and with the largest attendances in the league - all quite normal for discussion on a LoI forum.


Also Cork have been the beneficiary of massive European money in this time, probably adding up to 2-3 million.

The rumours are that the cash is gone and they have no nest egg to get them out of their slump. They have players on long contracts who are crocked and past it and have an army of staff behind an unqualified "manager" who is out of his depth.



On the finances, the way budgets work at City is that the manager is given the money and is free to spend it as he chooses. Having seen Caulfield spend a large budget has made me re think my opinion on directors of football who rein in wasteful managers. We had a squad of 29 at the start of the season made up mainly of squad fillers. The wastefulness was tragic. Much better to have a tighter squad of higher quality IMO.

The old board set the budget for the coming season and it turns out they were very generous to Caulfield. The new board discovering that there is no nest egg (despite members voting a few years ago to have one in place) and the 2019 budget was set at a level that required attendances of 4000 per game. Ridiculous. Caulfield blows all the money and the current board, and Cotter, have been trimming a lot of the fat from the squad this summer. There has been finger pointing from supporters of old board to supporters of new board and vice versa but my own opinion is that the new board will do well when the mess is sorted. Any dissent you here will be coming from the old board who squandered all the money.

We have only 2 players contracted for 2020 so there is no legacy issues re contracts and the new man has a blank canvass more or less but will have to operate a budget that doesn't include European money as we will not get there now.

If that new man is Cotter,, I despair. The new board are smart people. They hardly would. Would they....

[Nesta99]

All fair comment. Not at all as per PC's claim that Dundalk fans are revelling in the Leeside fall from grace, the opposite is the case for some who miss the niggle. A few years nip and tuck with Rovers will occupy those types. I dont see how a board (legally) can overturn or ignore a decision by the members. There is little recourse but that alone should mean they'd be in for heavy criticism from all quarters. While Cotter wouldnt be an appointment that would galvanise supporters maybe he is hamstrung by the issues you mention - cleaning up a mess left and would be doing things differently if it were possible. I do think an appointment during the season gives a new manager that added time to assess things going forward assuming there isnt a risk of relegation.

On an assistant taking over, and its by no means menat as the Dundalk way is the best way, but there are notable differences between Perth and Kenny. Perth is quicker to make changes when they are needed 1st half, half time and so on which you wouldnt have seen under SK. Perth also rotates and utilises the squad more - partly by necessity this season but squad players were allowed get stale imo in previous seasons whereas this season all possible combinations of players at the back have featured for example. Perth obviously wants to build his own legacy but a lot of what he is doing makes sense and this isnt a revisionist take on the Kenny era where some of the shine has come off due to him leaving. One of the main criticisms of SK during his time at Dundalk was an almost belligerent loyalty to players he payed to bring in when other options might have been better for selection.

Who knows maybe Cotter and the board at Cork have had this very type of conversation and he is in with a shout and he can then build and play 'his own team'!?

[sullanefc]

I dont see how a board (legally) can overturn or ignore a decision by the members. There is little recourse but that alone should mean they'd be in for heavy criticism from all quarters.

While Cotter wouldnt be an appointment that would galvanise supporters maybe he is hamstrung by the issues you mention - cleaning up a mess left and would be doing things differently if it were possible.

I do think an appointment during the season gives a new manager that added time to assess things going forward assuming there isnt a risk of relegation.

Who knows maybe Cotter and the board at Cork have had this very type of conversation and he is in with a shout and he can then build and play 'his own team'!?

Apparently motions voted at FORAS meetings are not binding for the board and so it is legal to ignore them. That said, the board should be ashamed for 1. Ignoring the members and 2. For not being prudent in having a nest egg. Especially given the recent Arkaga and Tom Coughlan mismanagement of finances.

I agree about making the permanent appointment now so the new guy can make assessments now, but I don't think appointing a new manager plus background staff is affordable. Plus all the existing coaches have to be paid too. Hence appointing from within. Apparently Healy and Bennett were approached before Cotter and they knocked it back. So we are where we are.

I have heard the argument in Cotters favour that this is not his team/mess etc. But he can't be completely disassociated from the Caulfield era. Plus, whatever about poor tactics/team selection, the players haven't looked motivated and John Cotter is not one to inspire IMO. Plus the fact that 5/6 starters were in the league winning side means they should be doing better IMO.

[Real ale Madrid]

Apparently motions voted at FORAS meetings are not binding for the board and so it is legal to ignore them.


It was a policy motion that was voted on not a rule change because you can't tie the hands of a Board of Mangement with regards to money. This has been expalined multiple times now at this stage.

I agree that the spirit of the policy should have been adhered to, but I can understand why the Board backed the double winning manager to the extent that they did - it was a mistake for sure but easy to say this in hindsight.


. That said, the board should be ashamed for 1. Ignoring the members and 2. For not being prudent in having a nest egg. Especially given the recent Arkaga and Tom Coughlan mismanagement of finances.


Again, I don't agree with the some of the actions of each board but to call out unpaid volunteers who gave an incredible amount of time up to the running of our club as shameful is wrong imo - its easy for people to moan into thier keyboards without sitting at the coalface.

[sullanefc]

And so we are doomed to repeat the same boom bust cycles forever. Plus ca change...

[Nesta99]

I know a BoM cant be running to call meetings with the membership for day to day decisions within a budgetry framework but I find it surprising that at least some aspect of the policy decision wasnt adhered to. Imo there should have been provision to keep some of the cash reserve in hand rather than completely row in behind whatever the manager wanted - every manager would want to eek out every cent for the player budget. It is what it is now but it would have to disillusion a good section of FORAS and if they dont renew subscriptions as a result the the net draws tighter again.

Again I say this while also feeling that Dundalk fans are resting on their laurels in not being proactive in the event of owners having a change of heart down the line. We would be caught cold whereas at least with a previous owner backing out there was already a functioning supporters trust active that is all but defunct now.

[Real ale Madrid]

I know a BoM cant be running to call meetings with the membership for day to day decisions within a budgetry framework but I find it surprising that at least some aspect of the policy decision wasnt adhered to. Imo there should have been provision to keep some of the cash reserve in hand rather than completely row in behind whatever the manager wanted - every manager would want to eek out every cent for the player budget.

I agree really and the spirit of the motion was not adherred to but what bugs me are the revisionists who come along after and castigate the volunteers running the club for making these mistakes. These are the same people who , if we did put all this money away for a rainy day would be front and centre calling out the club for lacking ambition.

[sullanefc]

I know a BoM cant be running to call meetings with the membership for day to day decisions within a budgetry framework but I find it surprising that at least some aspect of the policy decision wasnt adhered to. Imo there should have been provision to keep some of the cash reserve in hand rather than completely row in behind whatever the manager wanted - every manager would want to eek out every cent for the player budget.
Agreed.


I agree really and the spirit of the motion was not adherred to but what bugs me are the revisionists who come along after and castigate the volunteers running the club for making these mistakes. These are the same people who , if we did put all this money away for a rainy day would be front and centre calling out the club for lacking ambition.
Mistakes? It's brain dead given our recent history.

The same people would be giving out if the money wasn't spent? That's bull. Yes there were some calling for signing better players, but all within budget. Everyone also assumed there was a rainy day fund that was outside of day to day spending.

For me, that motion was passed at a GM and the decision to spend it should have been decided at a meeting. I would have disagreed, but at least it would have been democratic.

To go on a solo run and spend the money was shameful. I don't care if they were volunteers or not. Shameful.

[Real ale Madrid]

The same people would be giving out if the money wasn't spent? That's bull. Yes there were some calling for signing better players, but all within budget. .

Nonsense. Revisionist to say otherwise. If we had put all our transfers fees away like we should have the Board would have come under massive pressure to use it as soon as we fell behind Dundalk.


Everyone also assumed there was a rainy day fund that was outside of day to day spending.


Anyone that assumed that within the FORAS membership either couldn't read or willfully ignored what was presented to them. Either way to say that portions of the membership thought there was a rainy day fund after the fact is yet more revisionist nonsense.



To go on a solo run and spend the money was shameful. I don't care if they were volunteers or not. Shameful.

I'm not saying that any BOM is above criticism.
I'm not saying that people can't be allowed criticise the Board when they make mistakes.
But cries of shame shame shame is easy to do with the benefit of hindsight and behind a keyboard in fairness.

[sullanefc]

Nonsense. Revisionist to say otherwise. If we had put all our transfers fees away like we should have the Board would have come under massive pressure to use it as soon as we fell behind Dundalk.

So "massive pressure" is an excuse to ignore the democratic wishes of the members? If they weren't able to cope with their responsibilities then they shouldn't have been there.

My own opinion is that some of them were close to Caulfield and like billy big heads liked keeping in with him and would bow to his budget wishes. But that is just my feeling on it.

Also, to blame the spending of money that shouldn't have been spent on pressure from supporters is a cop out. Why accept blame? Just deflect it elsewhere. This is Ireland after all...

[Nesta99]

I got banned from the Cork City forum for suggesting that Cork City were not getting value for money.....

(and yes I thought it was harsh!!).

[sbgawa]

Repeal the Nesta 1 :)
He's served his time

[marinobohs]

I got banned from the Cork City forum for suggesting that Cork City were not getting value for money.....

(and yes I thought it was harsh!!).

whereas now you would be hailed as a visionary for the very same view :D clubs run by supporters always have the same difficulty - because you cant act like a business man AND a fan. usually member/fan/directors are too close to the match by match whinging of fans and their decision making can be affected by it. That 'one more player and we are set for Europe/league/Cup etc glory' mantra that every fan t every club regularly churns out. sometimes having an owner / decision maker that doesn't mix with supporters allows for more rational, realistic decision making.

[Nesta99]

Visionary? Certainly not!! Common sense when you looked at signings in, size of squad, releasing players that could turn a game like Sadlier and McNamee (if ever played in position). Wasnt there was also Kenny Shiels like signing of players and paying them off to leave before contract was out? Throw in te rumours o budgeting for 4k attendances, general supporter discontent, and then finally the decline in results. Issues at Cork were looming large from a long way out and the board I'd imagine saw it all in slow motion. The froze, hoped that the manager would wave a magic wand, or they could throw additional money at the squad. You are spot on that supporters find it very hard to be ruthless at running a club. I'm sure the huge respect for Caulfield's achievements meant that as supporters there was a loyalty there that made it very hard to pull the trigger until there was no choice. When it did happen then there wasnt the resources to make real changes count as the coaching staff couldnt be payed off. Id guess that Caulfield is still being payed so Cork end up paying two managers and 'cause of that Cotter was the only financially viable option. As mentioned above by someone Cork FORAS badly needed a director of football at minimum and a very strong CEO/General Manager that isnt a supporter that the board will listen to. I'm genuinely not having a dig but I really though of all clubs Cork were driven to being financially conservative due to past experience - it was a source of often mentioned pride by Cork fans on here. The reality is though that they fell victim to what is the classic issue of supporters running a football club - blind optimism! 4k average gate??? nuts considering how divided thet Cork support were on the manager and style of football alone and Im surprised the the membership didnt call that out!??

[Nesta99]

Repeal the Nesta 1 :)
He's served his time

Noooo I value my sanity!! It was very much a paranoid forum, with exceptions, that believed everything was a sneaky jibe when really it was reasoned pointing out that people werent seeing the wood for the trees. I have said more above in discussion, albeit with the benefit of hindsignt sitting in beside now. Im sure there was full on civil war not long after! I dont know what the average age of members were but it was like a schoolyard namecalling frenzy, a rinse and repeat of the Drogheda stuff from mid noughties on here. Silly stuff not worth engaging with.

[Ezeikial]

Noooo I value my sanity!! It was very much a paranoid forum, with exceptions, that believed everything was a sneaky jibe when really it was reasoned pointing out that people werent seeing the wood for the trees. I have said more above in discussion, albeit with the benefit of hindsignt sitting in beside now. Im sure there was full on civil war not long after! I dont know what the average age of members were but it was like a schoolyard namecalling frenzy, a rinse and repeat of the Drogheda stuff from mid noughties on here. Silly stuff not worth engaging with.

It remains the most entertaining forum board going

If you can ignore the name-calling and childish insults, there is great great craic from some of the most bat$h!t crazy commentators going. Paranoia and delusion makes for great fun, mixed in with some very witty self-deprecation

(Naturally I'm banned, but I'm currently lurking under an alter-ego pseudonym)

[RathfarnhamHoop]

whereas now you would be hailed as a visionary for the very same view :D clubs run by supporters always have the same difficulty - because you cant act like a business man AND a fan. usually member/fan/directors are too close to the match by match whinging of fans and their decision making can be affected by it. That 'one more player and we are set for Europe/league/Cup etc glory' mantra that every fan t every club regularly churns out. sometimes having an owner / decision maker that doesn't mix with supporters allows for more rational, realistic decision making.

Some might say having your board as a 50/50 split fans and businessmen would be the ideal setup :)

[Nesta99]

It remains the most entertaining forum board going

If you can ignore the name-calling and childish insults, there is great great craic from some of the most bat$h!t crazy commentators going. Paranoia and delusion makes for great fun, mixed in with some very witty self-deprecation

(Naturally I'm banned, but I'm currently lurking under an alter-ego pseudonym)

Ezequeel? They'd never cop!!

[Nesta99]

Some might say having your board as a 50/50 split fans and businessmen would be the ideal setup :)

Touché marino..

[sullanefc]

and the board I'd imagine saw it all in slow motion. The froze, hoped that the manager would wave a magic wand, or they could throw additional money at the squad.
2 different boards. The 2018 board set the 2019 budget at the end of 2018. The 2019 board have to deal with it.

[marinobohs]

Some might say having your board as a 50/50 split fans and businessmen would be the ideal setup :)

Works for ye 😁 but “some” couldn’t then claim to be a 100% members owned club now could they ?

[Ezeikial]

Ezequeel? They'd never cop!!

I tried 'Stephen Napier' as a nom de guerre, he being the closest Cork/Dundalk link I could think of.

That didn't really work as lads kept asking me how things were going in Clonmel and sending private messages of congratulations on being inducted into Cork City Hall of fame.

[Nesta99]

Must try Dave Barry myself then so for some entertainment value;)

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Works for ye 😁 but “some” couldn’t then claim to be a 100% members owned club now could they ?

Still unable to grasp the difference between ownership and board members are you? That's unfortunate.

[marinobohs]

Still unable to grasp the difference between ownership and board members are you? That's unfortunate.

Still unable to grasp the difference between 50% and 100% are you ? That's unfortunate :rolleyes:

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Our game against Waterford that was suspended on the second has been rearranged for Tuesday the 27th. Has any other team been asked to do Tuesday then Friday games? Nevermind twice.

[Ezeikial]

Our game against Waterford that was suspended on the second has been rearranged for Tuesday the 27th. Has any other team been asked to do Tuesday then Friday games? Nevermind twice.

Waterford also have a match against Derry City listed for Friday 30th Aug

Is there a significant difference playing Friday - Tuesday - Friday as opposed to Friday - Monday - Friday?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Waterford also have a match against Derry City listed for Friday 30th Aug

Is there a significant difference playing Friday - Tuesday - Friday as opposed to Friday - Monday - Friday?

A Tuesday night is an awkward night to get people to go to games as it's just not something the casual fan would think about. The fact its a few days before the derby and a few days after a cup game basically means that non season ticket holders are either going to have to part with 45euro in the space of a week or pick and choose games which will affect attendances. Think that'll be the first full day back in school for lots of kids too and it's not away fan friendly at all either.

Just stupid stupid fixture planning from the idiots in Abbottstown yet again. Would have made much more sense for us to play Waterford at home this Monday then hold off finalising the away dates until after the cup second round and at worst putting it on the Monday after the quarter finals if either team were still in it or on the Friday if they weren't.

[Ezeikial]

A Tuesday night is an awkward night to get people to go to games as it's just not something the casual fan would think about. The fact its a few days before the derby and a few days after a cup game basically means that non season ticket holders are either going to have to part with 45euro in the space of a week or pick and choose games which will affect attendances. Think that'll be the first full day back in school for lots of kids too and it's not away fan friendly at all either.



It seems to me that all of the above issues similarly apply to playing on either Monday or Tuesday.

Midweek games are inevitable if you have games called off to facilitate your european preparation

[RathfarnhamHoop]

It seems to me that all of the above issues similarly apply to playing on either Monday or Tuesday.

Midweek games are inevitable if you have games called off to facilitate your european preparation

Tuesdays are far worse than even the **** shows that are Monday games.

[brendy_éire]

Tuesdays are far worse than even the **** shows that are Monday games.

How though? Unless the Monday is a bank holiday, it doesn't make much difference either way.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

How though? Unless the Monday is a bank holiday, it doesn't make much difference either way.

There's no pattern to it. If someone asked you when are LOI games played you'd say Fridays and some Mondays and Sligo play Saturdays. To throw in random Tuesday games just means the casual fan isn't going to know they're happening and people might have stuff on on Tuesdays while they'd keep Mondays and Fridays free

[Ezeikial]

There's no pattern to it. If someone asked you when are LOI games played you'd say Fridays and some Mondays and Sligo play Saturdays. To throw in random Tuesday games just means the casual fan isn't going to know they're happening and people might have stuff on on Tuesdays while they'd keep Mondays and Fridays free

In your view how many extra paying supporters would attend if the Shamrock Rovers V Waterford match was played next Monday instead or Tuesday?

The fact the Bohs 'cup final' follows on the Friday presumably did not tinge your thinking?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

In your view how many extra paying supporters would attend if the Shamrock Rovers V Waterford match was played next Monday instead or Tuesday?

The fact the Bohs 'cup final' follows on the Friday presumably did not tinge your thinking?

Playing a game on a Monday probably adds a few hundred to the gate compared to a Tuesday. It's an awkward day to have a game and made even stranger by the FAI arranging dundalks game for the Monday.
Just about every aspect of the arranging of that game is just done wrong, playing the same team twice in just over a week, 3 home games in a week, a random day of the week to schedule it for, arranging it for days before a big game. Its like a check list of how to guarantee the worst attendance possible.

[marinobohs]

There's no pattern to it. If someone asked you when are LOI games played you'd say Fridays and some Mondays and Sligo play Saturdays. To throw in random Tuesday games just means the casual fan isn't going to know they're happening and people might have stuff on on Tuesdays while they'd keep Mondays and Fridays free

Wow, how many people do you think 'keep Monday night free' for LOI matches ? Only possible downside to Tuesday night (as opposed to Monday night) is that it is a training night for most junior / underage teams and, naturally that might hit the crowd.