Public Liability Insurance

[redobit]

From Sligo Rovers mid season update: https://www.sligorovers.com/mid-season-update-please-read/

A second challenge for us is the level of our Public Liability Insurance premium. In the current environment where personal injury awards and other costs are high and have forced the closure of other sporting facilities, we have been subject of two large claims. Our public insurance premium has gone up from €15,000 in 2016 to €60,000 in 2018.
Our first quote for 2019 was €86,000 (despite being claims free for four years) and only after much work, diligent persuasion and risk containment steps, did we get that premium down to €58,000. Although this feels like a result, it is simply not sustainable.

[redobit]

Insurance is a huge issue at the moment. And of course LOI clubs are no different to this crisis. Id be interested to know how other clubs are fairing.

[D24Saint]

Excellent topic to bring up. I’ve heard of numerous events get cancelled due to the insurance crisis but for some reason never made the connection in reference to LOI. We are sponsored by an insurance company so I’d guess they work out a deal for us.

[David BOHie]

Bohs' doubled to roughly the same amount Sligo are paying. Was mentioned at the AGM that this is a huge issue and that it is gonna keep jumping

[redobit]

Clubs with Council owned stadiums have no such problem? Or are they seeing a rise in their rental costs to absorb the increase.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Last I read the government response to all this was to press ahead with a "Judicial Council" that will set the guidelines for liability pay-outs, presumably lowering them to be more in line with the rest of Europe. Still going through the Oireachtas, and may be for some time yet. They hope such a reduction will lead to reduced premiums. I'm not convinced it will.

[D24Saint]

Would the league not be better off introducing collective bargaining for the likes of insurance, kits etc.

[marinobohs]

Would the league not be better off introducing collective bargaining for the likes of insurance, kits etc.

As ever, some clubs may think they have better deals and won’t do collective deals. Also it would require centralized management and FAI are too busy flogging Aviva season tickets to do it.
No club would trust another club to negotiate centrally.

[Nesta99]

Its a serious problem across the board and its pushing Junior/Summer league clubs to the limit as they dont want to pass on significant cost to players. Of course there should be a league wide policy and it should be done by the FAI, shared ground or not the national stadium is sponsored by Aviva - if they wanted the naming rights badly enough the FAI could have sought a reduced premium clause for league clubs (Id bet that the international sides are insured as part of the sponsorship deal!!). It would be interesting to see what rugby clubs have to pay as a much riskier sport and whether they had the smarts to address this with a major insurance company sponsor.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I had a thread on this topic a while ago, where it was said that the clubs are tied into getting insurance through Aviva? - https://foot.ie/threads/242590-LOI-Insurance?highlight=insurance

[D24Saint]

I had a thread on this topic a while ago, where it was said that the clubs are tied into getting insurance through Aviva? - https://foot.ie/threads/242590-LOI-Insurance?highlight=insurance

Sounds like something the fai would stick into their participation agreement.

[Martinho II]

how come this public liability issue wasnt raised before? thats fairly serious for Sligo Rovers- wonder what caused that? oppostition fans?

[NeverFeltBetter]

Did anything specific cause it? I wouldn't say so, no more than any specific incident has raised insurance premiums for any other club in the last few years. They'll continue to go up until the law changes.

[pineapple stu]

thats fairly serious for Sligo Rovers- wonder what caused that? oppostition fans?
Mary Bailey falling off her swing

[D24Saint]

I wouldn't say the fare from most chip vans in the league is helping with the insurance costs.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

how come this public liability issue wasnt raised before? thats fairly serious for Sligo Rovers- wonder what caused that? oppostition fans?

Insurance costs have just been rising significantly recently for anywhere that has any sort of physical activity happening on their grounds recently, some amateur clubs in all sorts of sports are really struggling to pay it now and I think loads of adventure centre places are closing because of it. When you live in a country where you get rewarded by the courts for trying to hang on to the side of a luas what do you expect really

[Ezeikial]

Insurance costs have just been rising significantly recently for anywhere that has any sort of physical activity happening on their grounds recently, some amateur clubs in all sorts of sports are really struggling to pay it now and I think loads of adventure centre places are closing because of it. When you live in a country where you get rewarded by the courts for trying to hang on to the side of a luas what do you expect really

The court system is only one part of the problem

The compo culture and massive profiteering by insurance companies are others

All of this is facilitated by politicians who are either incompetent or corrupt



Profits jump 1,300pc for insurance firms


https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/the-great-motor-insurance-ripoff-profits-jump-1300pc-for-insurance-firms-38215319.html

[D24Saint]

Insurance costs have just been rising significantly recently for anywhere that has any sort of physical activity happening on their grounds recently, some amateur clubs in all sorts of sports are really struggling to pay it now and I think loads of adventure centre places are closing because of it. When you live in a country where you get rewarded by the courts for trying to hang on to the side of a luas what do you expect really

Sums up the problem alright.The judiciary are a pack of morons.

[redobit]

Insurance costs have just been rising significantly recently for anywhere that has any sort of physical activity happening on their grounds recently, some amateur clubs in all sorts of sports are really struggling to pay it now and I think loads of adventure centre places are closing because of it. When you live in a country where you get rewarded by the courts for trying to hang on to the side of a luas what do you expect really

Plus that woman admitted she was in the wrong, mad stuff. Or the guy who slipped in his own council house in Sligo after drinking 5 pints ... got €105k. If wasn't so serious it would be hilarious and Im sure there are plenty of these stories.

A rise of 45k for Sligo Rovers is massive. There is a lot that a LOI club could do with that kind of money. I don't know the ins and outs of it, but there is a claim that will probably go through soon (it didn't influence this quote afaik) so I dread to think what it could rise to in the future.

[Nesta99]

ESB guy slipping while getting the post and awarded a wad of money because he wasnt trained on how to pick up the post in the rain one of the more ridiculous reasons for liability I have seen or the restaurant that was sued by a woman who banged her leg on the table leg and because the waiter had pulled the chair out for her they were liable.

[joey B]

The Finn Gael party are attempting to get insurance premiums up aswell!

[marinobohs]

ESB guy slipping while getting the post and awarded a wad of money because he wasnt trained on how to pick up the post in the rain one of the more ridiculous reasons for liability I have seen or the restaurant that was sued by a woman who banged her leg on the table leg and because the waiter had pulled the chair out for her they were liable.

Typically Irish unfortunately, as long as someone is screwing a 'big company' its OK (bit like tax evasion) no concept of where the cost usually ends up. Two current FG T.D.s already involved in ahem, 'compenmsation cases' (swing gate and the lad pictured playing football while 'injured'), so don't expect much leadership from the Government

[D24Saint]

The Finn Gael party are attempting to get insurance premiums up aswell!

Sure isn't their modus operandi to make life as unpleasant as possible for joe soaps.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

78,340 raised in the annual draw

[Mr A]

Massively impressive. Sligo's ability to pull together and financially support their club is an example to the rest of us.

[marinobohs]

78,340 raised in the annual draw

Well done, have always admired the family/community feel at Sligo. Proper sustainable way to run a club with people who appreciate their role as custodians of the club rather than owners.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Two big issues with the state of insurance premiums - the soaring profit margins of insurance companies combined with under-reporting, from their end, of suspected fraud to Garda - were brought up over the weekend: https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/revealed-irish-profits-for-insurer-twice-what-was-planned-38284217.html

God knows my social media and TV has seen plenty of those dumb "It isn't funny when it's your money" ads trying to get me to report insurance fraud, but that's clearly not the issue here. It's blatantly transparent what is happening, the question is what the political establishment is going to do about it, if anything.

[pineapple stu]

It's an interesting debate actually.

Weston is a useless journalist I've always found. In this case, his "profits soar 1300%" line is because he's taking a starting point where combined industry profits were almost nil. That's not sustainable.

You'd have to imagine there's more fraud going on than is being formally noted. So why the outcome of the Oireachtas hearing? A couple of options come to mind -

1) The insurance industry don't care about payouts so long as premiums can rise to cover them. I could buy this.
2) It genuinely is really difficult to disprove things like pain, emotional trauma or even whiplash. So you can suspect they're fraudulent while knowing there's **** all point dumping 20k cases on the Gardaí
3) So why didn't the guys at the hearing just say that? Probably because if they went on record saying " We don't investigate because we know we can't prove", then you're potentially calling open gates on claims

What's the solution? Hard to give a solid answer. "Greater regulation of payouts" is a bit wishy-washy. I don't know why car trackers haven't caught on more; they're starting to record crash data now which would almost immediately rule out a claim (you crashed at 5mph => zero chance of whiplash)

Should insurance companies be awarded costs if they win their claim? Would be another discouragement to spurious claims

Should the government step in and say car insurance is x oer year, end of story? It would mean insurers have to ok at reducing costs rather than increasing premiums. But there's lots of different insurance types; you can't set prices for all

[D24Saint]

https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiELcKmI_Z0frUjfsP_fpMCOQqGQgEKhAIACoHCAowqfqFCz D7v4MDMIO9jQY?hl=en-IE&gl=IE&ceid=IE%3Aen

Wish I got trapped in a lift more often.

[pineapple stu]

Ah, but he got a scratch like. On his leg!

[NeverFeltBetter]

The Dublin Ocktoberfest cancelled owing to insurance costs, or so the organisers claim.

I wonder what level of event/club cancellation it would take for the government to pro-actively step in (as opposed to the "Judicial Council", whose edicts could take two and a half years to come into effect, or so I have read)? I was thinking if GAA clubs started feeling the effect to the point they needed to fold underage/senior teams, it's already bad enough for them: https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/insurance-now-the-biggest-bill-for-gaa-clubs-36944567.html

[D24Saint]

The Dublin Ocktoberfest cancelled owing to insurance costs, or so the organisers claim.

I wonder what level of event/club cancellation it would take for the government to pro-actively step in? I was thinking if GAA clubs started feeling the effect to the point they needed to fold underage/senior teams, it's already bad enough for them: https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/insurance-now-the-biggest-bill-for-gaa-clubs-36944567.html

Jaysus this has to stop.

[marinobohs]

The Dublin Ocktoberfest cancelled owing to insurance costs, or so the organisers claim.

I wonder what level of event/club cancellation it would take for the government to pro-actively step in (as opposed to the "Judicial Council", whose edicts could take two and a half years to come into effect, or so I have read)? I was thinking if GAA clubs started feeling the effect to the point they needed to fold underage/senior teams, it's already bad enough for them: https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/insurance-now-the-biggest-bill-for-gaa-clubs-36944567.html
HSE wastes tens of millions every year on “settlements “ Local Authorities hand out money for (often spurious) claims at an alarming rate. Scammers and the legal profession (ultimate scammers 😁) are making fortunes out of it.
Easier to stick your nose in the trough (the swing gate fiasco among others) than attempt to stop it. The Taoiseach even refusing to call exaggerated claims “fraud”.
As ever in Ireland “fraud” only applies to ordinary people, if you want it stopped just direct AGS to prosecute those fraudulent / exaggerated claims, if it’s good enough for Social Welfare fraud and TV license evasion....

[D24Saint]

HSE wastes tens of millions every year on “settlements “ Local Authorities hand out money for (often spurious) claims at an alarming rate. Scammers and the legal profession (ultimate scammers ��) are making fortunes out of it.
Easier to stick your nose in the trough (the swing gate fiasco among others) than attempt to stop it. The Taoiseach even refusing to call exaggerated claims “fraud”.
As ever in Ireland “fraud” only applies to ordinary people, if you want it stopped just direct AGS to prosecute those fraudulent / exaggerated claims, if it’s good enough for Social Welfare fraud and TV license evasion....

I can see why he is afraid of the word fraud alright.

[sullanefc]

Here we go.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/irfu-forced-to-tackle-fans-hit-by-rugby-balls-at-the-aviva-73zzdjfr7
If this is the way things are going then God help our LOI clubs having to payout because of their wayward striker who can't hit the target.

[D24Saint]

Here we go.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/irfu-forced-to-tackle-fans-hit-by-rugby-balls-at-the-aviva-73zzdjfr7
If this is the way things are going then God help our LOI clubs having to payout because of their wayward striker who can't hit the target.

You think it can't get worse then you read the likes of that.

[pineapple stu]

On the plus side, it might drive up attendances if people know they could be in line for a 20k prize just for turning up

[the 12 th man]

You think it can't get worse then you read the likes of that.

The 2 girls were probably on their phones and not even watching the games.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I would have thought that the ticket T&C's would have included something to cover that, like they tend to do with the use of image.

Edit: And I mean, rugby is small fry for that kind of thing. We all remember that woman who lost sight in one eye at that golf tournament, and in the last two hurling matches I intended, sliotars rained down on the crowds behind the goals when warming-up players hit them too high. At the Munster Final a young girl a few rows in front of me got a glancing blow to the head off a bouncing one (she was fine, or at least she said she was).

Point being that the comparatively softer, albeit potentially pointier, rugby ball shouldn't be in the same league.

[marinobohs]

I would have thought that the ticket T&C's would have included something to cover that, like they tend to do with the use of image.

Edit: And I mean, rugby is small fry for that kind of thing. We all remember that woman who lost sight in one eye at that golf tournament, and in the last two hurling matches I intended, sliotars rained down on the crowds behind the goals when warming-up players hit them too high. At the Munster Final a young girl a few rows in front of me got a glancing blow to the head off a bouncing one (she was fine, or at least she said she was).

Point being that the comparatively softer, albeit potentially pointier, rugby ball shouldn't be in the same league.
If they were hit by a rugby ball in a public park how much would they get ? Is the “pain” that much worse in the Aviva ? It’s an embarrassing scam because the whole “personal injuries “ circus has become a scammers dream.
Until the counts and insurance companies start addressing these type of scams insurance costs will continue to spiral

[Charlie Darwin]

If they were hit by a rugby ball in a public park how much would they get ? Is the “pain” that much worse in the Aviva ? It’s an embarrassing scam because the whole “personal injuries “ circus has become a scammers dream.
Until the counts and insurance companies start addressing these type of scams insurance costs will continue to spiral
Or maybe the insurance companies don't want to address them because they're a convenient excuse to raise premiums. Just like 'trouble' at LOI games is a convenient excuse for AGS to increase police presence at grounds.

[placid casual]

Regulate the legal system, stop the single school kings inns monopoly, and impose massive fines/imprisonment for those who flagrantly flout the law.
Insurance companies used to rely on investment portfolios to make their money, not premiums as claims have always driven a hike in Irish insurance companies. the book of quantum is like a comic book these days

[NeverFeltBetter]

Longford Greyhound Stadium closing, citing, in part, insurance costs that doubled in a year: https://www.rte.ie/sport/other-sport/2019/0809/1067967-longford-greyhound-stadium-announces-closure/

[Martinho II]

Longford Greyhound Stadium closing, citing, in part, insurance costs that doubled in a year: https://www.rte.ie/sport/other-sport/2019/0809/1067967-longford-greyhound-stadium-announces-closure/

unknown to many from 1924 to 1972 we played there and got kicked out by them for some unknown reason! fierce handy location and sad to see it going!

[nigel-harps1954]

unknown to many from 1924 to 1972 we played there and got kicked out by them for some unknown reason! fierce handy location and sad to see it going!

Given the amount of funding in Ireland for greyhound racing, having two prominent tracks closing down, both citing a lack of financial support from the Irish Greyhound Board, you have to wonder where all this funding is going?

[pineapple stu]

Wonder is it in any related to the "sport" losing a few sponsors after the recent RTÉ revelations? Citing "rising insurance costs" might be an easy way to close down a few of the quieter venues.

Always thought the amount of money being put into greyhound racing was obscene here, but still, there's people out of work as a result of this, so not nice to see.

[Martinho II]

Wonder is it in any related to the "sport" losing a few sponsors after the recent RTÉ revelations? Citing "rising insurance costs" might be an easy way to close down a few of the quieter venues.

Always thought the amount of money being put into greyhound racing was obscene here, but still, there's people out of work as a result of this, so not nice to see.

dont think so as the greyhound scene in longford has being on the downturn the last few yrs!

[joey B]

unknown to many from 1924 to 1972 we played there and got kicked out by them for some unknown reason! fierce handy location and sad to see it going!

This is an example of the inherent lack of joined up thinking in sport in this country,so you have a great stadium in Longfords built way out of town and this in a good location now closing! Did nobody ever think of them getting together and upgrading the dogtrack and share with the football team? You'd have the football team able to take on some costs and and be handier for people to get to......

[Martinho II]

This is an example of the inherent lack of joined up thinking in sport in this country,so you have a great stadium in Longfords built way out of town and this in a good location now closing! Did nobody ever think of them getting together and upgrading the dogtrack and share with the football team? You'd have the football team able to take on some costs and and be handier for people to get to......

theres talk already of local based schoolboy clubs that dont have a ground of their own moving into it as I do be involved in the local underage scene . agree with you the lack of joint linked thinking between the government and different sports is shocking.

[Nesta99]

LSPs were set up to do away with duplicating facilities and to promote joined up thinking and generally has worked well for smaller NGBs. Unfortunately the Irish predisposition to be exclusively in control lingers still with some - imo driven by the attitude of an antiquated Athletc Association and often the wagons get circled by governing bodies that find GAA officials so intransigent. The most reluctant feckers to get to co-operate on anything certainly in Louth is the GAA and they are a complete laughing stock both within GAA and generally (would push the FAI for inepptitude and dodgy governance), South Louth GAA people are already talking about boycotts of the new County Ground in Dundalk!! You'd think the County was huge rather than just a 15-20 minute drive between the 2 urban centres.

The old dogtrack in Dundalk couldnt have been any more central. It was used by schoolboy clubs also but that was stopped due to health and safety. Dog owners were asked to lift sh1t from the 'pitch' area at dog meets but basically refused to cooperate. As a multi use facility there was a possibility of funding for ongoing improvements to that facility but when DDSB pulled out funding was also pulled as a single use facility. Track got closed and eventually was factored in to a new development of the Racecourse. But the dog people almost lost out completely. A couple of schoolboy clubs folded as they had no pitch. It's now a shopping centre but no reason an urban park/pitch amenity couldnt have been included in the current developed area bar the lack of ability of some to not be arséwipes.