Republic of Ireland V Gibraltar - 10th June 2019 - Euro 2020 Qualifier

[DeLorean]

He was bloody good then. I would say his peak was between 2001 - 2004. He's one of those players who peaked early. I remember seeing him when he broke into the Man Utd team in 2001-2002 and failing to understand how he wasn't in the World Cup squad.

Ian Harte was a liability for much of the 2002 World Cup. We didn't really have anybody take his place at left-back. Stan's pace was too much gone for playing at left-back. We could have had O'Shea at left-back, and that would also have allowed us to play Duff on the wing instead of having Kilbane cover for Duff. Steven Reid was also really good back then (pre-injury), but Mick stayed loyal to McAteer (when he was clearly injured) and Gary Kelly (who was off the boil).

Below is a possible 2002 Starting XI in an alternate universe, which would have put Duff out on the left where he could do maximum damage, and taken advantage of the fact that we had three class central midfielders (play them all! we were always dropping one of Kinsella or Holland... Mick not being able to accommodate multiple top players is a recurring theme).

Given
Finnan - Cunningham - Breen - O'Shea
Reid - Kinsella - Keane - Holland - Duff
Keane

There has always been too much of loyalty to existing players in the Ireland squad and it has done my head in for years. Not just by Mick but by all managers. Places in the team should be continually earned, there should be no favouritism.

Although I agree there should be no favouritism, Harte did plenty to earn his selection, both for us and at club level with an excellent Leeds side. He had a poor World Cup alright, these things happen, but I don't think O'Shea had done nearly enough to dislodge him at that point in time, as promising as he looked.

[Lionel Ritchie]

He had a poor World Cup alright, these things happen, but I don't think O'Shea had done nearly enough to dislodge him at that point in time, as promising as he looked.

Is the correct answer. The stats are there. Harte was considerably more likely to be involved in getting a goal than the concession of one.

[EAFC_rdfl]

Would anyone object to this team against the Swiss ( if they are playing ok at club level of course)
-----------Randy
Matt D Duffy Egan Stevens
-------James McCarthy ----
Coleman -------Robinson------O dowda
------------ McGoldrick
------------Michael Obafemi

Yes lets try playing against one of the top ranked teams in Europe with 1 recognised centre mid

[Real ale Madrid]

Yes lets try playing against one of the top ranked teams in Europe with 1 recognised centre mid

And an over-stimulated goalkeeper.

[jbyrne]

Is the correct answer. The stats are there. Harte was considerably more likely to be involved in getting a goal than the concession of one.

harte also reportedly had a foot injury that required a pain killing injection before each match. who was to know that when the squad was announced?

[backstothewall]

-- Mr Darren Edward Andrew Randolph --
Coleman ----- Duffy --- Keogh ----- Stevens
--------------------------- Arter ---------------------------
O'Dowda Hendrick Hourihane Robinson
---------------------- McGoldrick ----------------------

[Diggs246]

Yes lets try playing against one of the top ranked teams in Europe with 1 recognised centre mid

We played with two "recognized" centre mids yesterday how did that float your boat!

Do you not think McCarthy and Robinson with McGoldrick dropping in would work

[Jolly Red Giant]

I just dont get the Hourihane love in, I thought he was sh*t

Hourihane pinged about half a dozen diagonal passes across the field and right on the money - he was the only player on the pitch who showed he was capable of passing the ball.

[bennocelt]

He was bloody good then. I would say his peak was between 2001 - 2004. He's one of those players who peaked early. I remember seeing him when he broke into the Man Utd team in 2001-2002 and failing to understand how he wasn't in the World Cup squad.

.

I remember him coming off the bench for man utd and the whole pub (when I was in England) shaking their heads in a collective groan, he was always a bit of a comedy player. Please.

[jbyrne]

I remember him coming off the bench for man utd and the whole pub (when I was in England) shaking their heads in a collective groan, he was always a bit of a comedy player. Please.

hundreds of man u appearances, 5 epls, a champions lge and 118 irish caps..... comedy player alright :rolleyes:

[brine3]

Although I agree there should be no favouritism, Harte did plenty to earn his selection, both for us and at club level with an excellent Leeds side. He had a poor World Cup alright, these things happen, but I don't think O'Shea had done nearly enough to dislodge him at that point in time, as promising as he looked.

Oh, Harte definitely deserved to go to the world cup, and as a starter too.

But McCarthy did make a tactical oversight by failing to bring a proper backup LB. It's a 23 man squad and ideally you want to have every position covered twice, plus a third goalkeeper. Harte had a foot problem as it transpired, and wasn't playing great. Having O'Shea ready to fill in when needed would have been very handy.

[tetsujin1979]

He had Finnan and Kelly in the squad, both had played at left full. Leaving out O'Shea was hardly a crime.

[geysir]

He had Finnan and Kelly in the squad, both had played at left full. Leaving out O'Shea was hardly a crime.

Josh got a run out of sorts in a friendly in the run up to the 2002 WC (against Croatia?) as a late sub, we were one up at the death. When we were defending a corner, he leaped up with an outstretched hand and conceded a penalty which was converted. Friendly or not, it was an act of criminal naivety on the international stage which cost us a victory. It was an image which endured and my first thought was no way do we need a very talented but rookie defender who can make a gaff like that after 5 minutes.
Whatever gripes one can have about Mick, the argument against the decision to leave Josh at home doesn't hold water. Crap games against the minnow aside, Mick has done well in the 2 other games.

[irishfan86]

For a team like ours with no lethal options available, a game like Gibraltar is always going to be a no-win situation for a manager. We have people here ripping Mick for not playing Doherty out wide again, despite what we saw in the previous Gibraltar fixture.

In my own non forum conversations I have suggested we should have had a guy like McGeady involved — if only for the purpose of unlocking a packed defence.

But there is a value to playing the same team against Gibraltar as will play against the Swiss. Perhaps the score won’t be as impressive vs Gibraltar but things will be more cohesive in September.

McGeady offers more against a weak team like Gibraltar, no doubt. But against a better side in Switzerland, perhaps Mick feels McClean will offer a more total contribution.

I don’t think McClean has the guile to ever look good against Gibraltar or in any game where we’re favourite. But against the Swiss I believe he will add value. He will unsettle them, and despite his raw approach to the game, he has the capability to score or create chances for others.

A bit of a rant but I am happy with Mick’s work so far. If he feels Doherty needs to be left out for balance’s sake, I back that. I will admit that I’d like to see Crowley involved but maybe the time for that is the October friendly vs Bulgaria. To be fair to Mick his immediate leap into competitive games has given him very little room for experimentation.

[brine3]

They played like rubbish with Doherty against Gibraltar and even worse without Doherty against Gibraltar. Doherty can't be blamed for the overall crápness of the Ireland team.

[jbyrne]

They played like rubbish with Doherty against Gibraltar and even worse without Doherty against Gibraltar. Doherty can't be blamed for the overall crápness of the Ireland team.

the home performance against gibraltar was miles better than the away. we created many more chances monday and dominated possession. randolph had a couple of saves to make over there but cant remember his involvement monday being much more than taking kick outs

[brine3]

Depends on your view of it.

But don't see why Doherty gets so much stick. Playing in an airport parking lot also played a role.

We have hardly any top players. It just so happens that our two best players play in similar positions. We have to make things work so that they can both play. Anything else is a failure to capitalise on resources.

Mick seems to think it is 2001 and that we have top players in nearly every position on the pitch. Somebody send him the memo.

[Real ale Madrid]

I remember him coming off the bench for man utd and the whole pub (when I was in England) shaking their heads in a collective groan, he was always a bit of a comedy player. Please.

This is a bit of a comedy post. Come on Benno.

[tetsujin1979]

I'm not sure what Doherty would have done differently in the game. He's not known for dribbling, so it's not like he was gong to get past the same two banks of defence that the players that were on the pitch struggled to get through. Don't get me wrong, I'd have liked to see him play, but I don't buy into the "we'd have won by more with Doherty" argument.
The one player I am really disappointed that didn't get on is Cullen.

[osarusan]

I'm not sure what Doherty would have done differently in the game. He's not known for dribbling, so it's not like he was gong to get past the same two banks of defence that the players that were on the pitch struggled to get through. Don't get me wrong, I'd have liked to see him play, but I don't buy into the "we'd have won by more with Doherty" argument.
The one player I am really disappointed that didn't get on is Cullen.

If there is some issue with Doherty fitting into Mick's system, this game would have been a risk-free way to try and iron some of those issues out.

[Diggs246]

I'm not sure what Doherty would have done differently in the game. He's not known for dribbling, so it's not like he was gong to get past the same two banks of defence that the players that were on the pitch struggled to get through. Don't get me wrong, I'd have liked to see him play, but I don't buy into the "we'd have won by more with Doherty" argument.
The one player I am really disappointed that didn't get on is Cullen.

yep, Cullen should have started. Jeff needs to be dropped even for his own sakes , a kick up the arse might help him.

I wonder does mick think he handled the Dan Crowley dutch cup final correctly now. Leaving early etc. That game would have been perfect for him

[Diggs246]

yep, Cullen should have started. Jeff needs to be dropped even for his own sakes , a kick up the arse might help him.

I wonder does mick think he handled the Dan Crowley dutch cup final correctly now. Leaving early etc. That game would have been perfect for him

Also if he had played cullen and if the lad played well he could have been an option for the swiss game, now no way he makes his debut on a game that big

[Olé Olé]

What's all the Cullen talk for? He's finished a loan at League One and has yet to do much at Championship level. Mick had a few kind words. And he's young. But still... Maybe it's the dearth of options.

[Diggs246]

What's all the Cullen talk for? He's finished a loan at League One and has yet to do much at Championship level. Mick had a few kind words. And he's young. But still... Maybe it's the dearth of options.

Because he is a good player and it looks like he has been recalled to West ham a premiership team because they think he is a good player too

[tetsujin1979]

Also, we don't know what's going to happen in the new season in England. If he gets into the west ham side, the first question that's going to be asked is "why isn't he in the England squad".
This was a real opportunity to stop that conversation ever before it starts.

[Olé Olé]

Because he is a good player and it looks like he has been recalled to West ham a premiership team because they think he is a good player too

I won't argue the first point. On the second point, He was recalled by them after his Bradford spell too, only to go on and not get games at Bolton. That's hardly evidence.

[DeLorean]

Also, we don't know what's going to happen in the new season in England. If he gets into the west ham side, the first question that's going to be asked is "why isn't he in the England squad".
This was a real opportunity to stop that conversation ever before it starts.

A little more irritating when we actually finished the game with a substitution to spare, granted it was still only 1-0 in the 93rd minute so not really the time to be focused on anything other than getting the win. Hard to believe he didn't use all three though given some of the performances.

[paul_oshea]

Also, we don't know what's going to happen in the new season in England. If he gets into the west ham side, the first question that's going to be asked is "why isn't he in the England squad".
This was a real opportunity to stop that conversation ever before it starts.

It's not just that, this was the only realistic opportunity to tie him for the next 18 months(Euros qualification dependent). It would be ok if we had a not so important list of qualifiers left.

Mick Mc should have been stung on this, and yet it wasn't asked once. There really is no excuse to miss another one.

[DeLorean]

Mick Mc should have been stung on this, and yet it wasn't asked once.

I don't think he's have had much difficulty dealing with that line of questioning. "Why didn't you cap young Cullen, Mick, you know, to tie the fecker down?".

[Yard of Pace]

The post noting Wales' position in their group says it all, for me.

I'm not for capping lads for 3 minutes to tie them down. One thing that Mick has brought back is unity and team spirit. I think capping lads who may regret playing for us in a year's time is creating potential to spoil the atmosphere. Not worth it, imo. I watched the League 1 play off final. Cullen looked promising but for me did not stand out as someone ready for top flight football. He's not far off, mind.

(McGeady beating players at will while only half-fit did, however....but that's another debate)

[bennocelt]

This is a bit of a comedy post. Come on Benno.

Not really Realale, Irish supporters always seem to have the blinkers on...........and we are quick to slag the English about it.........

[Fizzer]

I’d say many’s a collective groan was heard in pubs when you were in England Benno,might not have had much to do with John O’Shea though.

[elatedscum]

John O'Shea's best form for Ireland came after Trap took over onwards. I think around 2008. I remember the panel discussing why he had started suddenly attacking the ball. Up till that point he was always tentative. As for playing at full-back, he always was too wasteful in possession there, he'd lamp these hopeful balls down the line to no one and we'd give away the ball again and again and again...

[mark12345]

What's all the Cullen talk for? He's finished a loan at League One and has yet to do much at Championship level. Mick had a few kind words. And he's young. But still... Maybe it's the dearth of options.

All the Cullen talk is happening because Hendrick is rank average and has been in a green shirt for a while (throw in Whelan and we really have a midfield to be reckoned with). Hendrick has been on borrowed time for quite some time, but in typical Irish fashion we will keep throwing the dice until Jeff has his first good game in 15 or 16 internationals, and then it'll be like: "Hendrick played really well - quieting all the naysayers who have been criticizing his performances of late"

Dan Crowley should have been brought in by now (at least to the training camp) and how much worse could Cullen have played (instead of Hendrick) the other night? As Diggs pointed out, he would then have been an option for the next game. It's very simple for the remainder of the campaign - If Ireland beat Switzerland in September, McCarthy's methods will have been deemed a success (in how he's developing his squad). But anything other than a victory will start the second-guessing of the manager.

[DeLorean]

The post noting Wales' position in their group says it all, for me.

They were missing some important players and lost two difficult away games, don't think that indicates anything really in terms of the attitude/commitment of their players.

I kind of agree with the rest of your post though, well, I'm kind of torn on it. I would have been happy to see Cullen capped the last night as I think he could have added a bit of balance to our midfield, while also having the bonus of him being now tied to us.

[Diggs246]

They were missing some important players and lost two difficult away games, don't think that indicates anything really in terms of the attitude/commitment of their players.

I kind of agree with the rest of your post though, well, I'm kind of torn on it. I would have been happy to see Cullen capped the last night as I think he could have added a bit of balance to our midfield, while also having the bonus of him being now tied to us.

They looked almost full strength to me

The main point is we shouldnt be copying a country that has qualified for 1 competition in 65 years.

[Yard of Pace]

They were missing some important players and lost two difficult away games, don't think that indicates anything really in terms of the attitude/commitment of their players.

I kind of agree with the rest of your post though, well, I'm kind of torn on it. I would have been happy to see Cullen capped the last night as I think he could have added a bit of balance to our midfield, while also having the bonus of him being now tied to us.

Tie no one. As Robbie says, we are Ireland.

For me, give them time, which they have ample amounts of now and then let them decide. Us deciding for them? Absolutely give me a break. No way. This is a country and team that needs characters and passion and 100%. I mean, jaysis, Robbie actually scoffs at the Rice situation.

To tie someone to represent this country? Case by case but with Cullen in Portugal and then on....no way. Not a chance. If he gets his place on merit, yeah.

[DeLorean]

They looked almost full strength to me

I'm pretty sure I read that Ben Davies was ruled out for the two games but I see he played. Obviously they were missing Ramsey.


The main point is we shouldnt be copying a country that has qualified for 1 competition in 65 years.

I thought the main point was that Wales' aggressive approach in tying players down isn't working for them, because of their current group position. I don't think you can judge that on two difficult away games. And maybe qualifying for only one competition in 65 years is part of the reason for their (relatively new?) approach.

[DeLorean]

Tie no one. As Robbie says, we are Ireland.

For me, give them time, which they have ample amounts of now and then let them decide. Us deciding for them? Absolutely give me a break. No way. This is a country and team that needs characters and passion and 100%. I mean, jaysis, Robbie actually scoffs at the Rice situation.

To tie someone to represent this country? Case by case but with Cullen in Portugal and then on....no way. Not a chance. If he gets his place on merit, yeah.

Overall I can totally see where you're coming from and it is definitely the approach with most integrity. It's a harsh footballing world out there though, I don't think it's a completely black and white issue. It is for you though which is fair enough.

[Diggs246]

I'm pretty sure I read that Ben Davies was ruled out for the two games but I see he played. Obviously they were missing Ramsey.



I thought the main point was that Wales' aggressive approach in tying players down isn't working for them, because of their current group position. I don't think you can judge that on two difficult away games. And maybe qualifying for only one competition in 65 years is part of the reason for their (relatively new?) approach.

Tbh I'm just sick of the "What would Wales Do" mob. we should nearly do the opposite to them
They are 2nd last they did lose to Hungary and at the beginning of the qualifiers I would have swapped places with them. Croatia would win the group and I would be confident we would come 2nd in that group ahead of Slovakia and Hungary. Wales have also appointed a manager with virtually zero experience and a man of absolutely zero integrity. We have an very good manager who is respected and loved by most. Their qualification track record is a disgrace. We have qualified 6 times in modern football compared to their 1.

[DeLorean]

Tbh I'm just sick of the "What would Wales Do" mob. we should nearly do the opposite to them
They are 2nd last they did lose to Hungary and at the beginning of the qualifiers I would have swapped places with them. Croatia would win the group and I would be confident we would come 2nd in that group ahead of Slovakia and Hungary. Wales have also appointed a manager with virtually zero experience and a man of absolutely zero integrity. We have an very good manager who is respected and loved by most. Their qualification track record is a disgrace. We have qualified 6 times in modern football compared to their 1.

Okay, I don't really care what Wales do though, just so you know. :)

[Diggs246]

Okay, I don't really care what Wales do though, just so you know. :)

and that's the correct mentality, as far as I'm concerned they can pick Tom Jones if they want

[tetsujin1979]

I'm not too bothered by what Wales do either, but they're far from alone in this regard, and it's something we're going to see more of in future

[gastric]

and that's the correct mentality, as far as I'm concerned they can pick Tom Jones if they want

How do you feel about Daniel O'Donnell as a defensive midfielder?;)

[Yard of Pace]

Overall I can totally see where you're coming from and it is definitely the approach with most integrity. It's a harsh footballing world out there though, I don't think it's a completely black and white issue. It is for you though which is fair enough.

Nah, I think for lots of youngsters, it's very grey. But once you accept a call-up, or declare yourself available, for me it is then black and white.

The system allows ample time underage, the players are wealthy young men who can ask just about anyone for advice etc. They are not orphaned waifs we're taking in. That's my stance. And if a guy travels with our squad for a vital qualifier he has to be committed. For me, then it gets simple.

Before, and I mentioned the future with all our future Nigerian, Brazilian, Polish, Lithuanian, Romanian, etc kids, it will be very grey....
But I look forward to that.

[Olé Olé]

I'm not looking forward to the first high profile defection. It's early doors, in particular for those of Nigerian heritage. So I hope that Obafemi has started a trend.

Of course, it's completely the lads' prerogative but I'm being a selfish supporter.

[Fixer82]

I personally think you should have two grandparents, one parent or be born in the country yourself. Or else, have moved over at a young age and come up through that country’s system.
I don’t like the fact that a player can possible play for 5 different countries if he has 4 grandparents from different places and was born in another place.
I don’t for a second think that Robinson or Scott Hogan grew up feeling Irish.
But I accept it far more than the rugby residency rule which I think has made a mockery of international rugby.

Are the FIFA rules in correlation with general international rules of citizenship?

[Olé Olé]

Scott Hogan has got your required two Irish grandparents though.

[elatedscum]

I personally think you should have two grandparents, one parent or be born in the country yourself. Or else, have moved over at a young age and come up through that country’s system.
I don’t like the fact that a player can possible play for 5 different countries if he has 4 grandparents from different places and was born in another place.
I don’t for a second think that Robinson or Scott Hogan grew up feeling Irish.
But I accept it far more than the rugby residency rule which I think has made a mockery of international rugby.

Are the FIFA rules in correlation with general international rules of citizenship?

I wouldn't doubt Robinson for a second. He declared for Ireland at 22, made the initial contact himself and spoke very eloquently about his decision that he'd been thinking about it for a number of years – and about the relationship he had with his mother and the importance of the decision to him and his family. If he had held out for another 3-4 years, you could argue that but i would take him at face value.

The FIFA rules were directly correlated to international citizenship, so if you're a citizen you can play for the country but then a load of countries started abusing it, so then they made a rule that there had to be 'a clear connection' to a country – which people began to abuse as well, at first slightly, like Poland who gave Roger Gurreiro Polish citizenship after living there for just 21 months, so that he could play in Euro 2008. Soon you had one of the arab countries giving passports to load of young brazilians who had just arrived there and calling them up to the national team, their connection being that they lived there. Or certain situations regarding great great grandparents.

So then FIFA made the criteria one of these 4: 1) residency a 5-year minimum 2) parents born there 3) or grandparents or 4) individual born there. I think you have to be a citizen as well as meeting those criteria, so that's why Lido Lotefa wasn't eligible to play for the Irish youth sides because he was in direct provision in Mosney and not yet eligible for a passport. It's also why a child born in Ireland could theoretically not be eligible, for example if the parents were in Ireland on student visas (thanks to Michael McDowell and those who voted for the 27th amendment of the constitution)...

[Yard of Pace]

We also have the phenomenon of having many players not caring a fig about Ireland....until coming to play for us. Then some have become our most committed. (Or manage us: J. Charlton for instance)

So, for me it'll always be a case by case basis with the scientific data from Stuttgart88s' gut test as the thing which helps make the final decision. (Did the patent for that come through yet?)