Discussion of Religion in Ireland

[EatYerGreens]

Sounds weird to some, but my memories of going to Finn Park as a kid were the freezing cold nights, wrapped up in about four layers with scarves and hats, coming away from the match and feeling yourself thaw out in the car on the way home.

The atmospheres were better, the soup or tea was better, the lights in the ground on a cold, dark, winter night. None of that can be beaten by anything summer football can throw at you and I feel sorry for my own kids not getting those same experiences.

It's been done a million times over here, and not wishing to start another winter/summer debate, but I hate most of the summer football calendar for the LOI and I think the idea the Irish League are proposing May-Feb is fantastic.

It's called nostalgia, Nigel. A feeling that things were just better when you were a kid.

"Remember when we were young how no-one could get a job and you were forced to go to church on a Sunday to listen to a paedophile priest pontificate to his heart's content ? God - Ireland's really changed for the worse...".

[sbgawa]

Or a priest who like the vast majority of them had given his life to trying to make the world a better place.
Oh and don't forget the bovril Nigel, memories ahhhh

[Calcio Jack]

[QUOTE=sbgawa;2003667]Or a priest who like the vast majority of them had given his life to trying to make the world a better place.QUOTE]

Let’s hear it for the good priests

Industrial homes
Beating kids to a pulp in schools
Forcing young pregnant girls into laundereies
Ripping their babies from them and selling them as part of illegal adoption network
Preaching from pulpit and fathering kids by vulnerable women
Controlling ethos of hospitals
Introducing symphisiopomy ( breaking women’s pelvic bones)
Telling football fans not to go to see Yugoslavia in 1950s

Just a few of the evil practices that the good priests happily carried - ah sure they were only following orders - every single one of them was/is guilty of crimes .

[sbgawa]

Every single one of them..
Just like every unemployed person is an idle waster
Every member of the traveling community is a criminal and every bohs supporter is a drug addled dole collecting waster.........

None of those generalisations are true.....although I'm prety sure about the last one.

[Nesta99]

You have listed a few things Calcio Id like to comment on myself-

As symphyiosotomy has been mentioned, its was phased out of practice across the country bar Our Lady of Lourdes Drogheda up until the 1980s (incredibly 1987), if anyone may still be wondering about additional reasons that there is no love lost for the 'centre of excellence' in the region, and why people of Dundalk would be highly unlikely to support a fundraiser for OLOL well here is but one example. The procedure itself was widely practiced internationally for hundreds of years until such time as caesarean sections become statistically safer. Retrospectively it is barbaric, as is blood letting to treat disease, or craniotomies (trepanning) for psychiatric disorders. The years of symphiosotomies at their height as a practice ran from mid 40s to the last in 1987. Birth rate in Ireland is a roughly an average of 60k per annum over a period of 42 years so about 2.5million births of which 1500 were recorded as by symphysiotomies, even if that figure is at the lower end it shows that this was not a widespread practice. High profile yes, horrific for those it was performed on especially in the latter years when complications were identified, absolutely. I dare say caeserean sections will be considered barbaric one day in the future.

The Administrator of Dundalk parish from the late 1960s through to early 80s and then Parish Priest in an adjoining parish did much to improve things in a genuine way for mother and children homes in the area before he abolished the local ones outright. Including making sure these kids wore civies, had partitions fitted in open dorms, sinks added to each partition etc. A man that is still highly regarded and respected as a true advocate for the weak and vulnerable probably ahead of his time. His 'preaching' on referenda was to say that he is supposed to say 'x' but then tell people to vote with their conscience regardless of what that may be. He introduced female alterservers regardless of being told not to by Rome and called for women to be made deacons and then eventually priests. He is deceased now. Im sure not every single person will have entirely positive experiences but its improtant to recognise the progressive contribution he made to local society via his powerful position in the church. He was also at the forefront of ecumenical initiatives and cooperation with the Church of Ireland comminity.

The ethos of hospitalls that were run by religious missions is hardly a surprise - the blame here and in many of these difficult topics is that successive governments deferred their responsibility to deal with social issues to any group that would fill the void and they were inadvertantly religious groups. There are many countries that had questionable practices eg adoption practices - state, not church led - see sontemporary rather than historical forced adoption issues in the UK! Institutionalised coverup of child abuse, eg BBC, Westminster with regard to Saville and a number of other high profile cases that will eventually get media attention right to the top of British governments past.
I dont mean this to be a dose of whataboutery, I do believe that the wicked in society will seek to use and abuse any institution possible to gain access to the vulnerable. Football Association, Plymoth, Rotherham, Rochdale and a dozen more towns/cities where social services either ignored or turned a blind eye to known ongoing sexual abuse in their regions. Boris Johnson, possibly the next PM of the UK commented that funding of investigations in to current and historical sexual abuse- "One comment I would make is that I think an awful lot of the money, an awful lot of police time, now goes into these historic offences and all this malarkey - £60m I saw was being spaffed up the wall on some investigation into historic child abuse and all this kind of thing". In this country at least there has been a facing up to horrors of the past and now have one of the most stringent child protection systems in the world. Unlikely to be be perfect but not of the dismissive nature of Johnson.

Lay teachers were every bit as culpable of physical abuse of students as religious figures. Telling people not to go to a football match...how many followed such a stance and lets not forget the GAA ban.

I would never suggest that people were not wronged in this country, betrayed by the church and by extension many of the support services, it happened and terribly so but if you pardon the term lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Balance is required and an across the board scattergun accusation of all clerics, church institutions etc, has the effect of undermining the individuals that suffered, it undermines those who have specific horrors to report against individuals, it dilutes responsibility when systemic issues have been identified in particular organisations. Even then it is often a number of individuals that have driven the systemic agenda issues rather than each individual being complicit!! Care should be taken when making such generalisations!! Rant over!

[Calcio Jack]

Every single one of them..
Just like every unemployed person is an idle waster
Every member of the traveling community is a criminal and every bohs supporter is a drug addled dole collecting waster.........

None of those generalisations are true.....although I'm prety sure about the last one.

My view is that the Catholic Church is one of if not the evilest organization that has existed for hundreds of years - therefore priests as the ‘frontline troops ‘ are by association also evil, sure the some may of done some good but that’s immaterial as the institution is rotten and history not just here but world wide supports that view- that’s my last word on this ,other’s may hold opposing views and they are free to do so without any any oppression, tthreats, torture or the risk of being murdered unlike many in the past who opposed the Catholic Church and indeed lots of other religions

[sbgawa]

My view is that the Catholic Church is one of if not the evilest organization that has existed for hundreds of years - therefore priests as the ‘frontline troops ‘ are by association also evil, sure the some may of done some good but that’s immaterial as the institution is rotten and history not just here but world wide supports that view- that’s my last word on this ,other’s may hold opposing views and they are free to do so without any any oppression, tthreats, torture or the risk of being murdered unlike many in the past who opposed the Catholic Church and indeed lots of other religions

As my own last word I'll continue to hold the view that calling every member of any organisation evil regardless of their own behavior is a bit OTT.

[nigel-harps1954]

Any attendance figure from mass on Sunday morning?

[EatYerGreens]

As my own last word I'll continue to hold the view that calling every member of any organisation evil regardless of their own behavior is a bit OTT.

It's rare in my experience that you ever see a priest at a League of Ireland game these days. So clearly they must all be evil.

Probably at home jumping up and down on the sofa for protestant teams like Manchester Yoonited. Hasten the rapture, oh Lord, to deal with these miscreants.

[marinobohs]

Every single one of them..
Just like every unemployed person is an idle waster
Every member of the traveling community is a criminal and every bohs supporter is a drug addled dole collecting waster.........

None of those generalisations are true.....although I'm prety sure about the last one.

Not forgetting the generalization about the ignorant uneducated clowns that support shams, you know the type that can't even spell the most basic words ;)

Note - if you are going to try and be a smartass make sure you are smart, otherwise you are just an ass :cool:

[sbgawa]

:) :) :)

[SkStu]

To be fair, its a misrepresentation sbgawa.

We all know that if Dublin Premier Division clubs were associated with drugs it would go more like this...

Bohs - marijuana edibles
Pats - anything in a needle
Rovers - coke fiends
UCD - no-fat skim milk lattes

[sbgawa]

To be fair, its a misrepresentation sbgawa.

We all know that if Dublin Premier Division clubs were associated with drugs it would go more like this...

Bohs - marijuana edibles
Pats - anything in a needle
Rovers - coke fiends
UCD - no-fat skim milk lattes

fair analysis

[Eminence Grise]

Any attendance figure from mass on Sunday morning?

Fewer in every church than the Finn Harps average attendance I'd guess.

The difference is, on the last day... they know they'll be saved.:p

[Eminence Grise]

It's rare in my experience that you ever see a priest at a League of Ireland game these days. So clearly they must all be evil.

Probably at home jumping up and down on the sofa for protestant teams like Manchester Yoonited. Hasten the rapture, oh Lord, to deal with these miscreants.

Man Utd were historically the Catholic club in Manchester, fwiw. It's Mammon they follow these days.