Gardai to allow turbans, hijabs.

[osarusan]

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0404/1040561-garda_recruitment/


In order to encourage candidates from minority communities, An Garda Síochána says it is to consider alterations to the garda uniform to take into account religious and ethnic requirements.

These will be subject to operational, health and safety obligations, it says.

In future, it is to allow members of the Sikh community to wear turbans and Muslims to wear hijabs. It says it has identified these as a major barrier to some people becoming a garda.

Garda Commissioner Drew Harris said the force needs to become more diverse to properly reflect the society it serves and it is focusing on people who might not have previously considered a career in the police.
I don't see a problem with this myself, as long as their religion doesn't play limiting role in their ability to do the job, but that's the same for any religion. Plenty of disagreement online though.

My first thought was that neither headwear would offer the same protection that the old domed hard hat would provide*, but I am not actually sure whether Irish police have ever worn those anyway.

*unless there are specially designed, reinforced ones for the police to wear.

[NeverFeltBetter]

They say this has been done in other countries and the sky didn't fall, so sure why not. Think Garda only wear hard hats for riots/ARU stuff right? Other than that it's a cap of some kind, if even that.

The reality behind this debate is probably more about whether non-citizens should be allowed to become Garda at all, right now the eligibility rules, regards nationality, are actually not all that strict:


(i) Be a national of a European Union Member State; or


(ii) Be a national of a European Economic Area State or the Swiss Confederation; or


(iii) Be a Refugee under the Refugee Act, 1996; or


(iv) Have had a period of one years' continuous residence in the State on the closing date of
the advertisement for the competition for the vacancy to which the admission relates, and
during the eight years immediately preceding that period, has had a total residence in the


State amounting to four years; or


(v) Has been granted subsidiary protection, or is a family member of such a person, in
compliance with the Admissions and Appointments Regulations 2013.

[Eminence Grise]

Modern times, and makes sense. Question though: would a Sikh garda be allowed to carry a kirpan? Even a blunt, purely ceremonial one?

[dahamsta]

I'm pretty sure the Guards aren't allowed to carry blunts, sorry. ;)

What's a kirpan? Go on, save me the google.

[CraftyToePoke]

Knife / dagger with a religious meaning for Sikh people.

[Eminence Grise]

Yeah, it's one of their five key aspects of their faith. Carrying a knife to be ready to defend the weak and oppressed.

[dahamsta]

[EDIT: I should have made it clear that this comment was generally about turbans, hijabs and crucifixes, not the kirpan in particular.]

Thanks. I'm not sure how I feel about this TBH. I don't like any crossover between church and state, and this is crossover IMHO. Yes, I understand that the turban is integral to the Sikh faith, but when it comes to things like this, I think religion should move on, not the rest of us.

And for the record, I would be equally annoyed by a crucifix on display. It's not a racist or sectarian thing. (I don't like religion personally, but I accept that people feel the need to subscribe to it. In their own time and space.)

[pineapple stu]

I don't see the need to bring religion into that question to be honest.

Assuming EG's summary is correct (and I've no reason to doubt it), then carrying a mad big knife around with you is simply not part of our culture. In fact, it's illegal here. So it shouldn't be allowed. Simple as that.

If you feel you absolutely have to carry a big knife around with you for religious reasons, then this is not the country for you. I don't see why that needs to be a controversial opinion. People will bleat "What about diversity?", but the problem with diversity is that it can only lead to the exact opposite of diversity - ie world looking the exact same wherever you turn. That would be a huge cultural loss, I think.

[NeverFeltBetter]

The carrying of knifes is illegal in Ireland without "reasonable excuse" (work, recreation, etc) already so as it stands Sikh members of the Garda woulds not be permitted to carry the kirpan (at least not openly, though perhaps this defeats the intention). Wiki tells me they've been banned in other western countries too, so its not like Ireland would be outside the Pale in refusing such things.

I'm given to understand that a kirpan can actually be quite small in practise, to the point that it might be useless as a weapon, and it's fair to say that the law is not strictly applied in the case of people carrying swiss army knives on a key ring and the like. But regardless, there must be a distinction between a tradition like the turban and a tradition like carrying a weapon, even a blunt, ceremonial one. Whatever the religious meaning and intention of the latter, a knife is a knife, and I wouldn't want any member of the police force carrying one.

[pineapple stu]

I have a notion that the legal limit on carrying knives is the length between your thumb and forefinger. If the blade is bigger than that, it's illegal.

Don't know if that's true or just an urban myth, but it would certainly allow for a small utility Swiss Army knife as you say.

The question your post raises is "Is religion/culture a reasonable excuse?" I'd say no. I think many would say yes.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I can't find a law in Ireland relevant to knives that makes exceptions based on length, but am open to correction. The Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act is here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1990/act/12/enacted/en/print#sec9

[osarusan]

Are Sikhs carrying around their Kirpan as they go about their everyday life here? I'd guess not.

I have no problem with headwear that doesn't impede their ability to do their duties or communicate with the public, but a Kirpan is something that would have no practical function and could easily be used against them in a bad situation, even a blunt one.

I read somewhere that UK Sikh police officers have some kind of protective headpiece under their turbans. I wonder how it works for hijabs, if there is some kind of protection there too.

[Fizzer]

I think it’s notable that the instant the gaurds (an almost exclusively white organization) mentions the notion that people of different color and background will be encouraged and welcomed into a force that needs a drastic overhaul on that and many other fronts,the media seize on this carrying of knives nonsense as some massive insurmountable problem.Its just right-wing fear mongering.Whats their solution?You can only join if you completely abandon your identity? Don’t like it? Go back to where you came from.The obvious answer is simple and it’s this: in a mature progressive and diverse country, we’ll find a way.....the Daily Mail et al needn’t concern themselves.

[The Fly]

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0404/1040561-garda_recruitment/

I don't see a problem with this myself, as long as their religion doesn't play limiting role in their ability to do the job, but that's the same for any religion. Plenty of disagreement online though.

One must always be sceptical when using opinions on social media and forums as a barometer for wider public opinion. That said I always find it interesting that Irish online reaction to particular news items, like this one for example, contains significant, and unabashed, negative comment.

An obvious reason for that, as in this instance, is the relative newness of such developments to Ireland. However, I also think it offers a glimpse of a fundamentally different predisposition, for want of a better term, which exists here and by extension why it will be much harder for the same kind of 'politically correct' attitudes seen elsewhere to gain just the same sort of traction or foothold on these shores.


My first thought was that neither headwear would offer the same protection that the old domed hard hat would provide*, but I am not actually sure whether Irish police have ever worn those anyway.

*unless there are specially designed, reinforced ones for the police to wear.

Turban wearing Sikhs have an exemption from wearing motorcycle helmets and head protection in the workplace under UK law. I think the former also applies under Irish law, but I'm not sure on the latter. The workplace is defined quite broadly in the British legislation but there is an exception for particularly dangerous or hazardous tasks, like say a firefighter entering a burning building.

[The Fly]

If you feel you absolutely have to carry a big knife around with you for religious reasons, then this is not the country for you. I don't see why that needs to be a controversial opinion. People will bleat "What about diversity?", but the problem with diversity is that it can only lead to the exact opposite of diversity - ie world looking the exact same wherever you turn. That would be a huge cultural loss, I think.

To quote T. Sowell - "Diversity is the key word among advocates of multiculturalism. Sweeping claims for the benefits of demographic and cultural diversity...have prevailed without a shred of evidence being asked for or given."

[Fizzer]

Are you not an ‘advocate for multiculturalism’ Fly? Is there an alternative word to ‘diversity’ that’s more palatable for you?

[SkStu]

I don’t see the knife an insurmountable issue at all. But it’s a fair question for society to ask and debate and it’s reasonable to expect people to come down on either side of the debate. Totally pointless histrionics there Fizzer saying that such debate amounts to right-wing fear mongering and that by asking such questions and potentially not allowing it (irrespective of safety issues or BFORs) that we are asking the sikhs to “completely abandon their identity”.

Personally, I love the idea of a more representative workforce for AGS and other public agencies. I think visible minorities should be proportionally represented in the workplace, in general, and as long as they are competent obviously. Would be great to see more sikhs, blacks and others in these institutions, including in Canada where I live, one of the most diverse countries in the world.

Multiculturalism a fine aspiration but in practice requires significant two way effort in order to be successful, constructive and sustainable. I think the compatibility - or not - of distinct cultures has to be a key consideration of a mature approach to societal diversification and there also has to be a line drawn in the sand of how far the host is willing to go in the dilution of its own culture in pursuit of multiculturalism. I don’t think that is a “right wing” position to take. Conservative, sure, but not “right wing” in the way that is implied these days by the use of that term.

History and an examination of other countries experiences tell us repeatedly that multiculturalism is not an easy thing to achieve or balance to strike and this does beg the question that The Fly asks indirectly - what is the value proposition?

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm fairly sure Irish sikhs don't carry kirpans. It's purely symbolic and they're allowed to substitute it for something not resembling a knife.

[dahamsta]

For the record, my comment wasn't about the kirpan, it was about turbans, hijabs, and of course our own local favourite, the crucifix.

[osarusan]

One must always be sceptical when using opinions on social media and forums as a barometer for wider public opinion. That said I always find it interesting that Irish online reaction to particular news items, like this one for example, contains significant, and unabashed, negative comment.

An obvious reason for that, as in this instance, is the relative newness of such developments to Ireland. However, I also think it offers a glimpse of a fundamentally different predisposition, for want of a better term, which exists here and by extension why it will be much harder for the same kind of 'politically correct' attitudes seen elsewhere to gain just the same sort of traction or foothold on these shores.
I think a more simple explanation is that people just love having a good whinge online. And that's by no means limited to Ireland.

I don't think there is a particularly different disposition either, to be honest. I'd say it's just the newness of it all.

However, maybe you are right. Politically we are fairly central, and even in terms of media, we are fairly central. The shrill-voiced loons of the left and right that get popular in other countries haven't made much inroads here. I can see a few trying, like Rowan Croft, who is trying to position himself as a lone voice of sanity in a PC-crazy Soros-controlled world, but he's dismissed as the tinfoil hat salesman he is.

[The Fly]

I think a more simple explanation is that people just love having a good whinge online. And that's by no means limited to Ireland.

I don't think there is a particularly different disposition either, to be honest. I'd say it's just the newness of it all.

I agree that the primary reason for it is the newness of it all. However I disagree on the disposition point. The question for me is more around the extent of the difference, how significant it is, and how much it comes into play. That there is a difference at all shouldn't be surprising given that Ireland has a very different history and national story in comparison to the vast majority of other 'Western' nations.

& Disposition is a better term than predisposition. ;)


However, maybe you are right. Politically we are fairly central, and even in terms of media, we are fairly central. The shrill-voiced loons of the left and right that get popular in other countries haven't made much inroads here. I can see a few trying, like Rowan Croft, who is trying to position himself as a lone voice of sanity in a PC-crazy Soros-controlled world, but he's dismissed as the tinfoil hat salesman he is.

They haven't made the same sort of inroads here because the cultural/social changes that this country has undergone in relatively recent times happened in those other countries a generation or two prior.

Who's Rowan Croft btw?

[osarusan]

Who's Rowan Croft btw?
A guy trying to make a living as Ireland's Alex Jones importing that Qanon stuff* (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TFPGc3XxRE&t=40s), grafting with youtube videos for patreon donations. Literally told his followers to donate so he could build a shed to allow him to spread the truth.

*WARNING: Video may kill brain cells.

[The Fly]

Are you not an ‘advocate for multiculturalism’ Fly? Is there an alternative word to ‘diversity’ that’s more palatable for you?

You'd have to define what you mean by multiculturalism.

The issue I was indirectly making about diversity, as it relates to multiculturalism, is that people talk about it as if it's axiomatically good. No evidence is provided to support it. That none is asked for makes me think of Pavlov's dog.

[Fizzer]

Let’s go with whatever you think T Sowell meant by multiculturalism, are you an advocate for that?
Would it be correct to say your position is that you’re not sold on diversity due to lack of evidence that it’s good?
So we don’t have evidence that welcoming ethnic minorities into the gaurds would be any good? Is that it?

[The Fly]

Let’s go with whatever you think T Sowell meant by multiculturalism, are you an advocate for that?
Would it be correct to say your position is that you’re not sold on diversity due to lack of evidence that it’s good?
So we don’t have evidence that welcoming ethnic minorities into the gaurds would be any good? Is that it?

Mine was a general point in response to pineapple stu's post, not about this story specifically.

Following on from that it's probably better to broaden this topic about the presence of ethnic minorities in the Gardaí out, to the presence of ethnic minorities in the country as a whole. If that is what you take multiculturalism to mean then you're mistaking the multiracial for the multicultural. They're different things.

[Fizzer]

Isn’t that why ‘diversity’ is such a useful word.It would save you the tedious effort of having to correct the uneducated.Except you’ve a problem with that word so we can’t use it.You can answer the question or hide behind obscure quotes (not obscure to you).Racism dressed up in Sunday best is still racism.The benefits of diversity (sorry) are obvious and self evident to any sensible person, to seek to provide hard evidence would be futile because those demanding it would deny it. Anyway, probably best for you not to answer the question, Hey, there’s a CEO job going in the FAI it might suit you.

[SkStu]

Isn’t that why ‘diversity’ is such a useful word.It would save you the tedious effort of having to correct the uneducated.Except you’ve a problem with that word so we can’t use it. You can answer the question or hide behind obscure quotes (not obscure to you).Racism dressed up in Sunday best is still racism.The benefits of diversity (sorry) are obvious and self evident to any sensible person, to seek to provide hard evidence would be futile because those demanding it would deny it. Anyway, probably best for you not to answer the question, Hey, there’s a CEO job going in the FAI it might suit you.

Sowell, the mad racist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell

[Fizzer]

What Stu?a person who’s not white can’t say something that can be interpreted as rascist?Were the black panthers not a little dodge or are you ok with them cos at least they keep to their own?Whats your view on the proposal of ethnic homogeny in Ireland, from your Trump-supporting perspective?Some kind of wall around Templemore maybe?

[SkStu]

I have a post on the first page of this thread that sets it out pretty well I think. Would love to know what you think of my thoughts.

I wasn’t really getting at his skin colour Fizzer (although it was a little bit of that too :) ), more that you see fit to reduce the words of someone as thoughtful and admired as Sowell to such a label and not just do a little research into him.

[The Fly]

Isn’t that why ‘diversity’ is such a useful word.It would save you the tedious effort of having to correct the uneducated.Except you’ve a problem with that word so we can’t use it.You can answer the question or hide behind obscure quotes (not obscure to you).Racism dressed up in Sunday best is still racism.The benefits of diversity (sorry) are obvious and self evident to any sensible person, to seek to provide hard evidence would be futile because those demanding it would deny it. Anyway, probably best for you not to answer the question, Hey, there’s a CEO job going in the FAI it might suit you.

I haven't hidden from anything. I asked you to define what you meant by multiculturalism and you failed to provide an answer. Anyway...it seems from your posts on the subject that you take it to mean the mere presence of different ethnicities, and their accompanying customs and traditions, in a given country. What you're describing here however is a multiracial society; something which I'm more than happy to see exist in Ireland. But it should have one overarching common culture. In other words, it should be a pluralist society.

By contrast, inherent in multiculturalism is the notion that the host country is some sort of abstract place with no accepted common culture. It accentuates, as opposed to reduces, ethnic differences therefore. Over time the effect is that the different groups within the society end up living in solitudes, leading almost parallel lives.

Here's a brief introductory reading reference for you on it - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_pluralism

[Fizzer]

No thanks on the ‘introductory reading’ but cheers for the reference.So where are you at? You’re ok with physical differences so long as there is compliance with an ‘overarching common culture’?Can this culture be added to and improved or is it permanently fixed?

[Charlie Darwin]

Can The Fly and Fizzer please stop talking to each other? I keep thinking it's one guy having a personality crisis and arguing with himself.

[Fizzer]

Yeah fair enough CD,life’s too short.

[pineapple stu]

I think it's more that your avatars are the exact same!

On your posts - my issue with them is that you don't really have a point of substance I think. You're not offering any reason why to accept your point of view, whereas The Fly has.

[The Fly]

I was just re-reading this thread and I shouldn't have let this reply hang. Apologies.


So where are you at? You’re ok with physical differences so long as there is compliance with an ‘overarching common culture’?

Yes of course I'm ok with physical differences. Anyone who isn't is a racist.

As for how society itself is ordered - I do believe there should be a common overarching culture.



Can this culture be added to and improved or is it permanently fixed?

The former, although only time will tell whether it has improved or not.