Make Poverty History Protest tonight

[liam88]

Anyone else going?
Look out for me on the news again!
Will be wearing Papal flag in honour of our Pope-the champion of the drop the debt campaign :)
Will be up all night lighting candles and listening to bands!
See you all in a couple of days when I've caught up wuith sleep..
Godbless the Pope!

[Fair_play_boy]

Liam, where was this on? Heard nothing about it. Where was it advertised?

[jofyisgod]

[QUOTE=liam88]
Will be wearing Papal flag in honour of our Pope-the champion of the drop the debt campaign :)
QUOTE]

Drop the debt, but keep the AIDS-That's a bit more like what the Pope would have said. Still, definately support this movement, and fair play to Messrs Blair and Brown for lending their powerful hands to it.

Where exactly is this on Liam?Trafalgar Sq. again or elsewhere?

[dcfcsteve]

First I've heard of this.

When's it start and who's playing ?

[Troy.McClure]

Its at Downing St

http://www.april2005.org/

Night protest to 'wake up the government' (http://www.april2005.org/media/events/eventsuk.html)

And for those of you in Ireland

http://www.tradejustice.ie/

[Éanna]

Will be wearing Papal flag in honour of our Pope-the champion of the drop the debt campaign :)
how about the church start selling some of its vast property interests to help the poor so instead of telling people what to do. :rolleyes:

[liam88]

Ok guys just recovering now (soory Id idn't get back to ye before)!
What an awsome night-they aimed for 4000 and got 21 000!!! This meant that we didn't get into the puppet workshop, or the service but still had an awsome night on the streets-even the ques had an awsome atmosphere.
Lit candles all along Whitehall and had a minutes silence at midnight, headed down to trafulgar sqaaure lit a few more and went around meeting some other protestors-another vigil outside Downing Streetat 4.00 along with a chorus of "Wake up TOny", 4:00am is meant to be the time when the most people in the world are awake (it's also the coldest!) Then went to Parliament Sqaure and watched the fire jugulars until the dawn march :)
Was really good run-just dissapointed the press didn't give iit mopre coverage-saw a wee written article on Sky News active,, nothing on Saturday morning and about 4 lines in one Sunday paper an 10 in another-shame really because it was a really good vigil with loads of people from all over the country and no trouble at all.

Thanks to those who hijacked my thread by the way...do I need to tell you again that our Pope preached abstinance before marriage as well as not using birth control so why would people listen to the condom bit and not the abstinance bit? Just find it sad that I start a thread about the make poverty history protest and you have to brign your prejudices into it-that's all.

The protest was organised by a coalition of 65 charities-Christian Aid, CAFOD and Oxfam were the main players and the Burma Campaign was there as well :D !

[Éanna]

Thanks to those who hijacked my thread by the way...do I need to tell you again that our Pope preached abstinance before marriage as well as not using birth control so why would people listen to the condom bit and not the abstinance bit? Just find it sad that I start a thread about the make poverty history protest and you have to brign your prejudices into it-that's all.
Leave out the "our" bit will you, he's your pope, speak for yourself. As for hijacking the thread- it might not happen if you actually responded to criticisms or questions people have raised rather than just idolising the RC Church and placing blind faith in everything it does. I'll say it again:


how about the church start selling some of its vast property interests to help the poor so instead of telling people what to do.

[Green Tribe]

suppose i have to support my son here ;) :D well done liam, for doing all that, but abstinance, hmm, that is difficult :D

[liam88]

Leave out the "our" bit will you, he's your pope, speak for yourself. As for hijacking the thread- it might not happen if you actually responded to criticisms or questions people have raised rather than just idolising the RC Church and placing blind faith in everything it does.

Yes he is my Pope-and the Pope of all Roman Catholics; hence the "our". You'd refer to city as "our team" or Ireland as "our country". When I'm talking to people from other colleges I say "at our college"-it doesn't mean it's there college. Yeah?
re. hijacking the thread there have been numerous threads on the Pope where I have put across my views-this thread was on a Make Poverty History protest and you bring debate about our Pope into it.
I do answer criticisms as I have done ont his thread re. AIDS and I have done on other threads if you read my post.
As for 'Idolising' the Church-well I believe it is the Church of God and following it's teachings is following God; hence my "blind faith". If you said the same thing about a Muslim you'd get a ribbing for being racist but just because I'm a Catholic you can say it :rolleyes:
As for your question-it's a fair one to ask, but for the last year my dad has been head of the Finance and General Purpouses Committee in our Parish and I can tell you the church is by no means rolling in money. Where does the money come from? Of course the museums in the Vatican make a little bit and things are sold but the vast majority of money is from donations. It costs nothing to go to Mass, it costs nothing to go and See the Vatican, it costs nothing the bathe at Lourds.
Selling our churches, our relics etc. will make a small bit of money for the poor but then there'd be less places to go and see and to prey because it would all be in the hands of big buisness and rich collecters. Surley it's much better to campaign for the debt to be dropped and for peace (war is very expensive!) as our Pope has done so that there can be some lasting development.
re. telling people what to do, the Church teaches the Bible-it's your choice if you want to follow it or not, no one forces you to sit there and follow the actions.

Cheer's for the support mam-can I sleep on your sofa after Ireland vs Celtic, the YMCA is far to expensive! :D

[liam88]

OH and God Bless the Pope! :D

[dcfcsteve]

how about the church start selling some of its vast property interests to help the poor so instead of telling people what to do. :rolleyes:

Eanna - even if it was to happen, a one-off cash windfall would do nothing to address the underlying issues that are creating and sustaining Third World poverty. It would therefore cause at best a momentary aleviation of the situation/circumstances before a return to the Status Quo.

The answer to the Third World's problems has more to do with questions of trade, economics, democracy and accountability than with straight forward monetary contributions alone.

[Éanna]

re. hijacking the thread there have been numerous threads on the Pope where I have put across my views-this thread was on a Make Poverty History protest and you bring debate about our Pope into it.
read your first post- YOU were the one who brought the pope into it.


As for 'Idolising' the Church-well I believe it is the Church of God and following it's teachings is following God; hence my "blind faith".
Did god decide condoms were evil? Show me where he wrote it/said it? The Catholic Church is an organisation which is run and ruled by men- its rules are their rules, no-one elses.



If you said the same thing about a Muslim you'd get a ribbing for being racist but just because I'm a Catholic you can say it :rolleyes:
absolute rubbish. I criticise (or praise) any aspect of any religion, purely based on my opinion. If I said it about Muslims it would be impossible to accuse me of racism, as muslims are not a race :rolleyes:



Selling our churches, our relics etc. will make a small bit of money for the poor but then there'd be less places to go and see and to prey because it would all be in the hands of big buisness and rich collecters. Surley it's much better to campaign for the debt to be dropped and for peace (war is very expensive!) as our Pope has done so that there can be some lasting development.
Thats a fair point. I'm not suggesting that everything be sold off, and mass be said in the fields- I'm just making the point that the RC Church could do more to lead by example.


re. telling people what to do, the Church teaches the Bible-it's your choice if you want to follow it or not, no one forces you to sit there and follow the actions.
Absolutely. I find it totally ridiculous that anyone would base their life entirely on a 2,000 year old book, but its their choice if they do. I've read the Bible (well, most of it) and found it totally unconvincing. The basic points ("love thy neighbour" etc) are all well and good, but I wouldn't put any more faith in it than I would in any other book.



Eanna - even if it was to happen, a one-off cash windfall would do nothing to address the underlying issues that are creating and sustaining Third World poverty. It would therefore cause at best a momentary aleviation of the situation/circumstances before a return to the Status Quo.

The answer to the Third World's problems has more to do with questions of trade, economics, democracy and accountability than with straight forward monetary contributions alone.
All those things come into it, that is true, but what I'm talking about is the RC Church leading by example. Fair play to those members of the RC Church who DO make an effort, but when figureheads make speeches about giving to charity, I regard it with the same scepticism that I do the likes of Bono- its just talk. Better than nothing, but just talk.

[jofyisgod]

Agree with Éanna entirely. Also-Liam, to the best of my knowledge, the Prime Minister and Chancellor have already committed themselves to helping Africa through the use of the all-new, Blair-run Africa Commission, who recently released an 'Action Plan' for Western countries to usee when formulating policy regarding Africa. therefore, why converge on Downing Street, whilst also keeping the PM(and his family) awake all night? I'm sure the late Pope wouldn't have liked that?!

One of the leaders of the MPH campaign, Bob Geldof, has also praised the efforts of Mr. Blair, and especially Mr. Brown:

Bob Geldof, who praised him (Gordon Brown) and Mr Blair for their efforts for Africa.
"The pair's efforts give hope to the continent and could even keep millions alive"

I just feel that these mass protests achieve very little (cite the Iraq protest in C.London in 2003, i think it was) and succeed in stroking the ego's of the particpants far more than they do regarding actual policy and action. Tony Blair's already listening to you, now articulate what you want to him, rather than 'protesting', and he may be more helpful.

[liam88]

Agree with Éanna entirely. Also-Liam, to the best of my knowledge, the Prime Minister and Chancellor have already committed themselves to helping Africa through the use of the all-new, Blair-run Africa Commission, who recently released an 'Action Plan' for Western countries to usee when formulating policy regarding Africa. therefore, why converge on Downing Street, whilst also keeping the PM(and his family) awake all night? I'm sure the late Pope wouldn't have liked that?!


Ok I was just about to make a constructive reply to Éanna's argument when I read this.
Fine so I'm a bad person for going on a make poverty history protest-there we go then that told me!
Just tell me this?

-If the government is so commited to helping Africa why hasn't it dropped the debt completly?
-Why is it still recieving everything it gives Africa in aid back three times over in debt?
-Why has it not stood up against trade rules meaning the African countries have to buy product from Europe!?
-Why has it left Africa in a viscious circle of debt and interest?

As for protests not working:

-Jubilee 2000 protests made the government cut some of the debt
-Christian Aid campaigners lhelped line supermarket shelves with Fairtrade goods
-More than 12 000 Christian Aid and Trade Justice Movement activists got trade justice on the government agenda in the largest ever mass-lobby of parliament

And I'm sure the Pope does want that!

There were lots of speeches and films on Friday night as well as an ecumenical service (so Christian unity got in there) and an african drumming workshop and a puppet workshop. It was not all about keeping Tony Blair awake-I don't think he was actually there.


You know I'm sure foot.ie is the only place a 16 year old lad could be criticised for being a dedicated Catholic and attending anti-poverty events.
Shame really.

[Éanna]

Ok I was just about to make a constructive reply to Éanna's argument when I read this.
go ahead. I'd love to hear it



And I'm sure the Pope does want that!
did



You know I'm sure foot.ie is the only place a 16 year old lad could be criticised for being a dedicated Catholic and attending anti-poverty events.
Shame really.
liam, you'll get nowhere if you're going to plead your age as an excuse. fair play to you for getting involved in what is a very important issue, but using your age as an excuse when people don't agree with you is a cop-out. I notice when I agreed with you about Burma you didn't mention your age then. If your going to post on the site and offer opinions, then you have to be prepared to agree, disagree and debate- don't take disagreement personally.

[liam88]

liam, you'll get nowhere if you're going to plead your age as an excuse. fair play to you for getting involved in what is a very important issue, but using your age as an excuse when people don't agree with you is a cop-out. I notice when I agreed with you about Burma you didn't mention your age then. If your going to post on the site and offer opinions, then you have to be prepared to agree, disagree and debate- don't take disagreement personally.

Wasn't using my age as a 'cop-out' was just pointing out how (don't know aboiut in Ireland but in the UK at least) people go on about teenagers just watching tv, hanging out on the streets drinking, turning to crime and when we do something like a Make Poverty History vigil the like of jofyisgod come on and criticise it....would never use my age as an excuse but if you think that I can't handle it then fair play.
And re. your "did" I am a Catholic and so believe our Pope is in heaven at the moment so he still wants us to Make Poverty History and I was proud to wear his flag and join in that vigil in his name as well as the name of teenagers and Irish.

Will post my reply to your last post later-my fairtrade orange juice has burst in my bag (no joke) so I need to move all my politics notes into new plastic folders ;)

[Éanna]

Wasn't using my age as a 'cop-out' was just pointing out how (don't know aboiut in Ireland but in the UK at least) people go on about teenagers just watching tv, hanging out on the streets drinking, turning to crime and when we do something like a Make Poverty History vigil the like of jofyisgod come on and criticise it....would never use my age as an excuse but if you think that I can't handle it then fair play.
I wasn't saying you can't handle it, but it did come across that way TBH. Anyways, hope you save all your notes and look forward to your reply :)

[liam88]

I wasn't saying you can't handle it, but it did come across that way TBH. Anyways, hope you save all your notes and look forward to your reply :)
Man-I made a post with an argument against all of his points then put on sentance at the end pointing emphasising how bizzare his sentiments were...he 100% agrees with you but is against the protest which you appear to be in favour of :rolleyes: (he also takes Bob Geldoffs word as truth whilst you think Bono is just doing it as a publicity stunt-arn't the two in it together?)
anyway that one comment doesn't mean I "can't handle" it....i can handle it and I will and i'm going to stick around and I'm going to post my reply tommorow.........and I'm going to save all of my notes!

God Bless the Pope! :D

[Éanna]

anyway that one comment doesn't mean I "can't handle" it....i can handle it and I will and i'm going to stick around and I'm going to post my reply tommorow.........and I'm going to save all of my notes!

as the man said "go for it chief" :D

[dcfcsteve]

I just feel that these mass protests achieve very little (cite the Iraq protest in C.London in 2003, i think it was) and succeed in stroking the ego's of the particpants far more than they do regarding actual policy and action. Tony Blair's already listening to you, now articulate what you want to him, rather than 'protesting', and he may be more helpful.

That's a harsh judgement on mass protests Jofy. Very often they do achieve things - perhaps not the sole goal intended, but they can have other impacts as well.

The anti-war protest in London in February 2003 was the single biggest protest in British history. That alone was an achievement. It also galvanised anti-war support - which has left Tony Blair so mortally wounded that he's already announced he will stand down within the next parliamentary term. That is a massive achievement - nigh on a political coup.

I was on the parade and it would almost have brought a tear to your eye to see that anything, ANYTHING in this day and age motivated 1 million people - many of them the so-called motiveless young - to get off their arse and make a statement. People I know at work and as friends - who had previously exhibited not the slightest glimmer of interest in politics - were talking about the event weeks in advance, and got theirselves out to make a stand. It didn't stop the Iraq war - true. But that was the fault of Blair's tunnel-vision and unwillingness to listen to anyone. Not the fault of the protestors or the protest itself.

Of those million who went on that march, I will guarantee you that some of them have been changed by that event - the ability to directly impact people's lives also being an achievement for the event. I'll give you a personal example. I've always been very actively interested in politics (full-time President of my Students' union for 2 years etc), but had got disillusioned with the direction English party politics was taking in the post-Labour period. That protest in 2003 completely re-invigorated my faith in politics and people power, and directly lead to me getting actively involved again. As a result, I am now awaiting selection as a candidate for a major party next year's local elections in Lambeth.

That's just one very personal example, but I don't doubt that the Feb 2003 anti-war protest had many, many other impacts upon individuals, families, organisations etc etc. Individually and collectively, those are huge achievements for what in reality was a fleeting moment in people's long lives.

In a normally functioning democracy - one where a party with 43% of the popular vote doesn't have a massive parliamentary majority, let alone a virtual dictator for a leader - the protest would have achieved its primary aim of stopping the war. It's failure to do so was not the fault of the protest itself, and its failure to do so does not mean it didn't achieve anything else for that or other causes/people/organisations.

History has shown time and time again that mass protest and people power works Jofy - from the French Revolution, through the fall of the Iron curtain, up to the recent events in Ukraine and a number of Central Asian Republics. Ironically - the biggest thing that usually prevents it from working, however, is an unwillingness to believe that it does work.....

[liam88]

History has shown time and time again that mass protest and people power works Jofy - from the French Revolution, through the fall of the Iron curtain, up to the recent events in Ukraine and a number of Central Asian Republics. Ironically - the biggest thing that usually prevents it from working, however, is an unwillingness to believe that it does work.....

Fair juice to ye Steve great post :D

[liam88]

Ok I've got an 10 minutes before my meeting for college mock election so here we go....


read your first post- YOU were the one who brought the pope into it.

That I did but in the manner: he was active in make poverty history-i was on a make poverty history march-I wore his flag......the thread was to discuss the march not our Pope and our Church




Did god decide condoms were evil? Show me where he wrote it/said it? The Catholic Church is an organisation which is run and ruled by men- its rules are their rules, no-one elses.

As a Catholic I believe that our Pope is God's representation on earth and is spoken to by God, doing God's work-subsequently I believe that by following Our Pope, Bishop, Priests I am following God.



absolute rubbish. I criticise (or praise) any aspect of any religion, purely based on my opinion. If I said it about Muslims it would be impossible to accuse me of racism, as muslims are not a race :rolleyes:

I never said you didn't jsut pointed out that some people would accuse you of racism. I know Muslims are not a race as such but noiw days racism is often (mabye wrongly) used with regards to groups of people-I never said it was racist-i said you'd be accused of it...and no doubt you would.



Thats a fair point. I'm not suggesting that everything be sold off, and mass be said in the fields- I'm just making the point that the RC Church could do more to lead by example.

The Pope's visiting of countries persecuted by dictators, practical support of the solidarity movement and entering into Anglican Cathedrals, a Mosque and a Syangoug is leading by example and he is head of our church.



Absolutely. I find it totally ridiculous that anyone would base their life entirely on a 2,000 year old book, but its their choice if they do. I've read the Bible (well, most of it) and found it totally unconvincing. The basic points ("love thy neighbour" etc) are all well and good, but I wouldn't put any more faith in it than I would in any other book.
Personal choicue but I find the parrables and teachings very applicable to my life-after all the BIBLE is Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth isn't it!





All those things come into it, that is true, but what I'm talking about is the RC Church leading by example. Fair play to those members of the RC Church who DO make an effort, but when figureheads make speeches about giving to charity, I regard it with the same scepticism that I do the likes of Bono- its just talk. Better than nothing, but just talk.
See above re. the Pope.......and last time I looked Bono visited Africa to see chidlren dying of AIDS....which is NOT our Pope's fault..

I'm off :D

[Éanna]

Fair enough, wouldn't agree with most of what you say, but you make sense at least.

As a Catholic I believe that our Pope is God's representation on earth and is spoken to by God, doing God's work-subsequently I believe that by following Our Pope, Bishop, Priests I am following God.
So do you accept EVERYTHING the pope (priests/bishops etc) says comes straight from god and is to be followed 100%? Thats all I'm wondering

[jofyisgod]

The anti-war protest in London in February 2003 was the single biggest protest in British history. That alone was an achievement. It also galvanised anti-war support - which has left Tony Blair so mortally wounded that he's already announced he will stand down within the next parliamentary term. That is a massive achievement - nigh on a political coup.

Good post on the whole Steve, you have made me reconsider my position slightly, however, the above quote is not correct. It is widely accepted within the Labour party, and most political circles, that the real reason Mr. Blair is leaving office within the next 3 years is due to increasing pressure ( all starting 10 or so years previous in that infamous London café) from Gordon Brown. Additionally, recent polls have shown Iraq to have barely appeared on the 'electoral radar', and even many MPs who voted against Iraq are not using it as an electoral tool.

Hope you saved your notes Liam! I am a big supporter of FairTrade too, but i still feel that buying the products will do more than protest, that's my opinion you're entitled to yours. I shall continue to write MAKE TRADE FAIR on my folders, posters, etc all over my school in a bid to get people to buy the goods.

[liam88]

Hope you saved your notes Liam! I am a big supporter of FairTrade too, but i still feel that buying the products will do more than protest, that's my opinion you're entitled to yours. I shall continue to write MAKE TRADE FAIR on my folders, posters, etc all over my school in a bid to get people to buy the goods.

Hey you and me are a lot more similar than we appear ;)

And yeah I do follow my Chruch 100% :)