Heysel Stadium Disaster

[sligoman]

Did anyone watch the programme on RTE1 last night ? Truely shocking stuff. I can see why the Juve fans still hold a grudge against the liverpool fans all these years later.

Yeah, was very sad. But then to see that B**** Thatcher talking about people been killed was shocking considering what she did over the years :mad:

[redgav]

[QUOTE=stojkovic]You obviously didnt watch the second half of the programme where they analysed how it all happened.[/QUO

you are basing your opinions a badly put together RTE program that only shows part of the story

not once did they mention that LFC club objected in writing to the game being played there ,not once in the program did it mention that known BNP members travelled to brussels
Not once did it mention previous liverpool /italian club games .
Nor did they mention the most important factor in all this ,was actually Roma fans the year before in Rome when Liverpool fans had to enter the ground surrounded by knife wielding Roma fans on one side and baton wielding caribinieri on the other side -Hundreds of Liverpool fans slashed ,and police stood back and left em -Then after the game ,no buses or trains running to bring them back into town ,leaving them to face the gauntlet again.
Liverpool fans were expecting similar treatment in brussels but for most of the day there was nothing but good feelings in the the "grand place" with both sets of fans havin mad sing song
It was ONLY when the missiles were thrown into their section that brought on the retaliation of the charge that caused the deaths .
It was a calamity from the start , a stadium that should never have held a game of this stature ,a inept police foirce ,whose only big crowd experience was Royal parades ,a organisation body (uefa)that didn't give two tuppenny fcuks about working class fans and who blatently ignored advise and requests from fans and clubs
Liverpool fans were very very wrong to charge,as were Italien fans that were throwing missiles and poles ,but facts remain ,this should never ever have taken place in that location , and to this day ,those resposible for those decisions ,has still remained unpunished
Why has there been no inquiry ?????Why were reports buried ???

[mypost]

The programme last night was the first time that I saw video coverage of what happened, and it was truely shocking. Having seen it, I can understand completely the attitude of the Juve fans.

I remember watching the trouble that night. It delayed the game so late, that I could only watch the first 20 minutes or so, and didn't hear the result until the following morning. As for the attitude of the Juve fans, they're just a bunch of hypocrites. They bang on about Heysel, as if they were holier than thou. Their fans took part in the trouble that night, I remember watching their fans firing missiles, after the Liverpool fans had stopped. And as if, their fans have never caused trouble at games since. :rolleyes: Hooliganism is rampant in Italian football. The way they go on, you'd think Liverpool fans have never suffered tragedy at football games. :rolleyes:


Having said all that, I don't think that this would have happened had it been held in an appropriate stadium. Had there been proper segregation and not just chicken wire fencing, the running and subsequent crush wouldn't have been possible. What happened was a tragedy, but the reality is that the fans of both sides, UEFA, and the various Belgian authorities were all to blame in some way or another.

It was incredible for UEFA to think that they could play a European Cup Final in an antiquated stadium, put English and Italian fans in the same terrace with inadequate "segregation" and policing, (knowing the reputation of both countries' supporters), not impose an alcohol ban before the game, allow fans to enter the stadium without showing their tickets, and think that there would be no trouble. Liverpool got the blame, and the punishment, but if UEFA had considered the safety and security concerns involved beforehand, the whole tragedy would have been avoided. It was therefore their fault.

[Kerry Blue]

I didn't see the programme the other night but I will never forget the night I watched the tragedy unfold at Heysel in '85. There is no point in blaming Liverpool 'fans' solely for what happened that night. As has already been mentioned, this tragedy had it's beginnings the previous year in Rome when Liverpool defeated Roma in the European Cup final. There was trouble between rival 'fans' and there is no doubt that Italian 'fans' were out for revenge in Brussels.
It was wrong for UEFA to play the game at such a delapadated stadium.
It was wrong not to have proper segregation between fans.
It was wrong to have poorly trained and poorly organised security personnel.
It was wrong to allow several people into the match without even checking their tickets.
It was wrong for the Juventus supporters to start taunting and throwing missiles at the Liverpool supporters.
It was wrong for the Liverpool 'fans' to retaliate in the way they did.
It was wrong to play the match.
For the families and friends of the 39 who lost their lives that night, their lives will never be the same again and they have my deepest sympathy. But I also feel sorry for genuine Liverpool supporters. I know that many of them were ashamed for what happened that night, and for the way such a great club was damaged by nothing other than scum. It undoubtably must have been difficult to try in some way to build bridges with Juventus after Heysel. When you think about it, how could they? How could anyone make up for what happened that night? What do you say? What do you do? After all many of those involved were not even Liverpool supporters anyway. As Mark Lawrenson said recently, not even the players talked about what happened afterwards. It just never came into conversation between those that were there. I think it was sad that some of the Juventus' fans reacted in the way they did at Anfield towards Liverpool's attempts to say sorry for Heysel. True, what they did probably wasn't great but as I already said what could they do. Forgiveness is a hard thing to give and it's up to each individual to decide for themselves. But revenge is a dangerous thing. Remember it was this that was one of the contributary factors to Heysel in the first place.

[razor]

There was another documentary on BBC2 last night for an hour and a half.
It really put the RTE one to shame.
It followed Juve & Pool fans back to the stadium 20 years later.
Went into far more detail.

[anto1208]

i didnt see the rte one but last night on bbc they said that juve fans broke into section Z and were attacking liverpool fans , this is why the liverpool fans rushed the Z section and caused the crush , also said the wall falling probibly saved lives rather than killing anyone coz it released pressure , most of the deaths were suffocated or trambled to death .

but to but all the blame at liverpools door is very harsh since it was the juve fans that started it .

[NeilMcD]

Noticed you didn't put up a post about today being the 16th anniversay of Hillsboro. Bet your a manc so you thought you' put up the post "O I NEVER KNEW THAT THIS AND THAT HAPPENED AT HEYSEL" yeah right.

Heres something for you take a trip down salford quays after a Manc game i and see how many Mancs over the years have kicked f**k out of opposing fans some lucky to be alive. Mate Heysel happened 20 years ago everyone knows what happened and how it happened 14 Liverpool fans served time for it and rightly so but don't start coming on here putting up psots like you did just so you can have a go at scousers cause 99% are all decent ordinary fans AND DON'T say your not having a go at the true fans coz you are you are trying to, a load of crap mate.


Just cause you support Liverpool there is no need to type like them too.

[Nempton]

Originally quoted by anto1208
but to but all the blame at liverpools door is very harsh since it was the juve fans that started it .

Thats a very childish thing to say. In another thread about hooliganism you got into an argument about who was worst, English or Italian fans. Which fans are the worst is a pointless argument because hooliganism in any form or level is unacceptable, it doesn't matter who is the worst but what does matter is the efforts being made to stamp it out. In regards to Heysel to say who started it, who retaliated is irrelevant. There were a number of factors that contributed to the disaster and accepting responsibility for Heysel is not something that should be avoided by those involved.

The programme on RTE1 was interesting, perhaps a little bare due to resources but it was good that they mentioned Bradford and the diasaster that occurred with their fans who were burnt alive. The English FA did nothing about this, Margaret Thatcher paid a visit to the ground but did not pursue those responsible as she did with Heysel. It was not until Hillsborough did the focus of crowd/stadium safety become a national issue that demanded change which subsequently occurred. Nor is there ever any mention of the disaster at Bradford except at local level where each year those who perished are remembered and how some players who were there that night like Stuart McCall are there and pay their respects. The English FA would at times really make you appreciate the FAI.

[Babysis]

Thats a very childish thing to say. In another thread about hooliganism you got into an argument about who was worst, English or Italian fans. Which fans are the worst is a pointless argument because hooliganism in any form or level is unacceptable, it doesn't matter who is the worst but what does matter is the efforts being made to stamp it out. In regards to Heysel to say who started it, who retaliated is irrelevant. There were a number of factors that contributed to the disaster and accepting responsibility for Heysel is not something that should be avoided by those involved.

The programme on RTE1 was interesting, perhaps a little bare due to resources but it was good that they mentioned Bradford and the diasaster that occurred with their fans who were burnt alive. The English FA did nothing about this, Margaret Thatcher paid a visit to the ground but did not pursue those responsible as she did with Heysel. It was not until Hillsborough did the focus of crowd/stadium safety become a national issue that demanded change which subsequently occurred. Nor is there ever any mention of the disaster at Bradford except at local level where each year those who perished are remembered and how some players who were there that night like Stuart McCall are there and pay their respects. The English FA would at times really make you appreciate the FAI.


I second everything you have just said. I think Bradford is the forgotten footballing disaster. It was horrific. Again, im too young to have witnessed these first hand, but ive seen the footage, and Its stayed with me.

In the instance of Heysel Its not a case of who started it, its the fact that innocent people died due to factors which should have been taken care of, such as security, segregation etc.

[Dotsy]

Thats a very childish thing to say. In another thread about hooliganism you got into an argument about who was worst, English or Italian fans. Which fans are the worst is a pointless argument because hooliganism in any form or level is unacceptable, it doesn't matter who is the worst but what does matter is the efforts being made to stamp it out. In regards to Heysel to say who started it, who retaliated is irrelevant. There were a number of factors that contributed to the disaster and accepting responsibility for Heysel is not something that should be avoided by those involved.

The programme on RTE1 was interesting, perhaps a little bare due to resources but it was good that they mentioned Bradford and the diasaster that occurred with their fans who were burnt alive. The English FA did nothing about this, Margaret Thatcher paid a visit to the ground but did not pursue those responsible as she did with Heysel. It was not until Hillsborough did the focus of crowd/stadium safety become a national issue that demanded change which subsequently occurred. Nor is there ever any mention of the disaster at Bradford except at local level where each year those who perished are remembered and how some players who were there that night like Stuart McCall are there and pay their respects. The English FA would at times really make you appreciate the FAI.

Excellent post. I remember Heysel and seeing both programmes recently brought the horror of it back vividly. Both programmes had their merits but the common theme I thought was that the tragedy resulted from the actions of not just the Liverpool supporters but from other factors as well. Having said that it is right that all those responsible should accept their part in it unreservedly.

[anto1208]

[QUOTE=Nempton]Thats a very childish thing to say. In another thread about hooliganism you got into an argument about who was worst, English or Italian fans. Which fans are the worst is a pointless argument because hooliganism in any form or level is unacceptable, it doesn't matter who is the worst but what does matter is the efforts being made to stamp it out. In regards to Heysel to say who started it, who retaliated is irrelevant. There were a number of factors that contributed to the disaster and accepting responsibility for Heysel is not something that should be avoided by those involved.
QUOTE]

childish it may be but who started it is very important considering it was thought liverpool fans started it and this got english clubs unfairly banned and set back 10 years behind other european clubs and are only barely catching up now .

for years liverpool fans have been branded murderers and scum because they "rushed " a section of juve fans , but the fact that they were only trying to help there mates puts a different spin on things .

maybe if you were a liverpool fan and had to put up with the stigma attached to being a liverpool fan you would under stand a bit better

[anto eile]

it was interesting,but still a rubbish programme.
a: liverpool players are hypocrites,they should be ashamed of themselves for playing.they knoew people had died but played on.tries to scapegoat uefa for making them play.rubbish.have they no minds of their own?

b: phil neal is a cvnt. anyone see him refusing to comment on heysel for anewspaper last week until he got paid?

c: players said they didnt protest at the peno and just wanted the game over..while they showed a clip of the liverpool players surrounding the ref appealing for a peno?liers

d: platini celbrating like mad after scoring.shame.juve players celebrating crazily after winning the cup.another shameful show

e: the programme made the new premiership seem like a happy family friendly happy clappy day out.ignoring the fact that it has become so far removed via money and commercialism from the real fans.also it ignored the fact that there is hooliganism at nearly all english league games.it hasnt gone away,its as bad as ever.just doesnt get reported
anyway,crap programme

[anto eile]

Thankfully things have improved and hopefully we'll never see its like again.
improved where?football violence happens all the time,including england.people will continue to die as result

[Babysis]

improved where?football violence happens all the time,including england.people will continue to die as result

To the same extent?? what Where the police are overwhelemed and innocent fans get suffocated to death against a wall?? Im sorry, but ive not seen that. Yes football has been removed from the "Real fans" and yes alot if it is due to money and commercailism, TV rights etc. but footy nowadays is much more accesible and much safer. I agree with Razor, things have improved and things are better.

[Dotsy]

it was interesting,but still a rubbish programme.
a: liverpool players are hypocrites,they should be ashamed of themselves for playing.they knoew people had died but played on.tries to scapegoat uefa for making them play.rubbish.have they no minds of their own?

b: phil neal is a cvnt. anyone see him refusing to comment on heysel for anewspaper last week until he got paid?

c: players said they didnt protest at the peno and just wanted the game over..while they showed a clip of the liverpool players surrounding the ref appealing for a peno?liers

d: platini celbrating like mad after scoring.shame.juve players celebrating crazily after winning the cup.another shameful show

e: the programme made the new premiership seem like a happy family friendly happy clappy day out.ignoring the fact that it has become so far removed via money and commercialism from the real fans.also it ignored the fact that there is hooliganism at nearly all english league games.it hasnt gone away,its as bad as ever.just doesnt get reported
anyway,crap programme


Don't agree it was a rubbish programme. It put what happened in a wider prospective and while not ignoring the appalling behaviour of some Liverpool fans it gave a good account of the bad judgement and decisions of others involved on the night. Whether the players should have played is obviously a matter for debate. Personally I agree with you that they shouldn't but that's with hindsight. There seems to have been a genuine fear that things would have gotten worse if the game hadn't been played. I certainly don't think there is an excuse for the way the players from both sides reacted to the penalty and goal during the game. No argument about Phil Neal. He has shown himself to be an idiot plenty of times not least when he was the assistant to Taylor in the England job.

There is certainly violence still in the game but it certainly has improved in England at least since the 1980's. I think the change is largely thorugh better policing of games and fans. The main improvemnet that came out of Heysel and Hillsborough IMO was the improvement in stadium infratsructure making them safer for fans.

[anto1208]

e: the programme made the new premiership seem like a happy family friendly happy clappy day out.ignoring the fact that it has become so far removed via money and commercialism from the real fans.also it ignored the fact that there is hooliganism at nearly all english league games.it hasnt gone away,its as bad as ever.just doesnt get reported
anyway,crap programme

rubbish that money and commercialism only affects utd . 99% of fans with season tickets are real fans .
there is very little trouble at games in england now , you would get the same here if clubs had 40,000 turning up every week .
it doesnt get reported the same way the trouble irish fans get into doesnt get reported

[razor]

improved where?football violence happens all the time,including england.people will continue to die as result
The authorities in England have made it safer for people to go to games, the stadiums are better and all areas of the grounds are monitored by CCTV.
The police intelligence in the UK is second to none.
Violence still exists of course but not anywhere near the stadium it doesn't, and this in itself will reduce the chances of innocent people getting hurt or killed, let the hoolligans beat 7 shades of sh*t out of each other somehwere else and leave the football to the fans.

[mypost]

[QUOTE=Nempton]it was thought liverpool fans started it and this got english clubs unfairly banned and set back 10 years behind other european clubs and are only barely catching up now.

The reason English clubs were banned from Europe wasn't directly because of Heysel, but because as a result of 10-15 years of hooliganism by fans of many English clubs when they played in Europe. The same punishment should be applied to Italian clubs.

[razor]

The reason English clubs were banned from Europe wasn't directly because of Heysel, but because as a result of 10-15 years of hooliganism by fans of many English clubs when they played in Europe.I don't know about that, I reckon it was a reactionary decision to the disaster but remember at this stage Thatcher had already removed English clubs from European competition anyway.

[Macy]

rubbish that money and commercialism only affects utd . 99% of fans with season tickets are real fans .
there is very little trouble at games in england now , you would get the same here if clubs had 40,000 turning up every week .
it doesnt get reported the same way the trouble irish fans get into doesnt get reported
You talk some amount shíte. There's loads of trouble in the English game, it never really went away. Just because it's hushed up, and happens away from the stadiums doesn't mean it's not football violence. Yes the police are one of the best in the world at preventing it, but the firms are arguably at their biggest now since the early 80's. There used to be a site that you could look at the police reports from the games, made for interesting reading...

You must also come from the Nick Hancóck/Alan Davies school of muppetry if you really believe that United are the only club that's policies has moved football from a working class sport to a middle class sport. Christ on 606 on Saturday it was QPR fans phoning up about their ticket price rises and about them being priced out.

[anto1208]

[QUOTE=Macy]. Just because it's hushed up, and happens away from the stadiums doesn't mean it's not football violence

You must also come from the Nick Hancóck/Alan Davies school of muppetry if you really believe that United are the only club QUOTE]

on your first point if it happens away from football grounds then what are the clubs expected to do , how can this possibily be football voilence .
we are talking about voilence inside the ground as in the heysel stadium not a fight that takes place 3 miles away involving people that are nt at ,going to or coming from the game .

since there is so much trouble at games what was the the last fight you were in at a game ?, last voilence i saw was at an irish game

listen to what your saying

as for the second point , fans want the clubs to pay huge wages and expect prices not to go up on the gates its called inflation , even at that i support a top 4 premiership team and it costs me under £20 per game for my ticket most would spend double that in the pub on a sat night .and we are a working class team and have over 35,000 a week at every home game

think about what your saying just because one qpr fan cant afford the ticket price means nothing , plus disagree with me if you want but dont go calling people names just because you dont know what your on about. im not talking ****e as i keep getting accussed of ,like with the sky sports discussion untill i was proven right yet again but then the ones you are quick to say i dont know what im on about are never so quick to admit they are wrong .

[Nempton]

Originally quoted by anto1208
childish it may be but who started it is very important considering it was thought liverpool fans started it
Well I'm glad you agree with me but there was no need to repeat what you had previously posted but then it seems that you missed the point. Its irrelevant who started it so I'll put it to you like this how can you be so certain that Liverpool fans didn't start antagonising the Juventus fans? How can you be certain that it was Juventus fans that started trouble? And please don't forget the other factors involved. Perhaps you are basing your views on what you heard one person say on television, and maybe their opinions are as biased as yours in this thread. Again I'll stress to you that at the end, everyone involved has to take responsibility, pointing the finger of accusation at others while in denial about your own involvement achieves nothing. What is important is prevention of anything like this happening again.


Originally posted by anto1208
for years liverpool fans have been branded murderers and scum because they "rushed " a section of juve fans , but the fact that they were only trying to help there mates puts a different spin on things .
Of course it puts a different spin on things if you argue that in fact when the Liverpool fans charged at the Juventus fans that they were only helping their mates. I guess we just misinterpreted their good natured intent just like those involved in the tragedy did. Seriously, you cannot expect people to swallow that nonsense and what kind of person are you to try in the first place, is it ignorance, naivety, insensitivity...what is it? Did you graduate from the George W. Bush School of Spin because the waffle you have been talking, reiterating the same point and refusing to believe your arguments are misplaced and wrong it would seem to suggest so.


maybe if you were a liverpool fan and had to put up with the stigma attached to being a liverpool fan you would under stand a bit better
It doesn't matter who I support but its a question of character. If Limerick FC or Man Utd had been involved in a tragedy such as Heysel regardless of what stigma comes with it, I would have no problem putting my hand up and accepting responsibilty because thats the kind of person I am. What kind of person are you?

[anto1208]

nempton i dont think im explaining myself properly sorry , i dont mean to be getting into a its there fault arguement because i was nt there i dont know what happened i have only seen the tv footage .and as you say i cant be certain if it was the juve fans or i cant be certain if it was the liverpool fans so why are only the liverpool fans being blamed ?

baring in mind that no one is sure who started it why was it only english clubs that got banned and not the italian clubs ?

if either limerick or everton had been involved with such an incident id be holding my hand up aswell ive no problem accepting responsibilty if i was a liverpool fan id accept it just the same as if i was a juve fan except the juve fans dont accept any of it ! why ?

all im trying to say (not very well i know ) is why is liverpool fc getting all the blame when as you say the're was many factors to take into consideration .

[DeLorean]

Apologies to whoever, didn't realise posting full articles was against forum rules. Believe it or not, I had those who can't access certain links at work's interests at heart! Anyway, 30th anniversary of the Heysel Stadium Disaster today and came across these on my travels. The last one is particularly interesting I thought as I never knew about him before.


BBC - Heysel disaster: English football's forgotten tragedy? (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-32898612)


Liverpool Echo - The Heysel disaster - 30 years on (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/heysel-disaster---30-years-9350754)


Belfast Telegraph - Remembering Belfast man Patrick Radcliffe who died in Heysel tragedy

(http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/remembering-belfast-man-patrick-radcliffe-who-died-in-heysel-tragedy-31262076.html)