Possible Celtic/Shamrock Rovers deal.

[marinobohs]

I wouldn't dare of it Toberona.

The scenario the independent are suggesting seems the most likely if anything does happen in that for 3 million Desmond gets 25%, Wilson gets upto 25%, and members get the rest. I'd presume Wilson would get some to all of his loan back and his 25% would slowly shrink as with his previous deal, leaving 1.5 million for investment and 1.5 for Wilson to choose to invest or not. I wouldn't be overly against this but I'd need to hear specifics before I could say I'm for it.

All that said as I said until there's a vote called as far as I'm concerned its all just rumours.
Wilson got 50% for 1.5 million so why would Desmond pay 3 million for 25% ? Doesn’t make sense, if anything Wilson might have overpaid, given his support/relationship with Shams.
Is SRFC now worth 12 million euro ? Based on what ?

[Calcio Jack]

Wilson got 50% for 1.5 million so why would Desmond pay 3 million for 25% ? Doesn’t make sense, if anything Wilson might have overpaid, given his support/relationship with Shams.
Is SRFC now worth 12 million euro ? Based on what ?

Just a small but important clarification - Ray Wilson and his associates doesn’t own 50%- he lent the club €1.5m repayable in approx 8 years from now . In the event it isn’t repaid then he will have 50% ownership in lieu of the €1.5m

[sbgawa]

So if Desmond invests then rovers could repay Wilson and club finishes up at 75 members and 25 Desmond..
Makes sense why would the members sell 25percent to Wilson for less then Desmond would pay.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

As Calcio said Wilson didn't pay 1.5 million for 50%. Investing money in a club and getting shares as a sort of collateral is very different to buying shares in a club.

Wilson is also a lot more likely to get favourable rates to someone else as there's no risk with him compared to an outsider.

[Nesta99]

Just a small but important clarification - Ray Wilson and his associates doesn’t own 50%- he lent the club €1.5m repayable in approx 8 years from now . In the event it isn’t repaid then he will have 50% ownership in lieu of the €1.5m

Thank you1 I asked the question on whether the share were transferred to be returned when the loan is repayed or was it that the 50% would move in to Wilson ownership if repayment wasnt made. 2 very different and very relevant scenarios.

[sbgawa]

I don't know but if he is paid back the shares either transfer back if they were transferred to him or he doesn't get them as he has been repaid. Either way if he is paid back he doesn't get the shares to keep

[Charlie Darwin]

Wilson got 50% for 1.5 million so why would Desmond pay 3 million for 25% ? Doesn’t make sense, if anything Wilson might have overpaid, given his support/relationship with Shams.
Is SRFC now worth 12 million euro ? Based on what ?
Well strictly speaking he paid nothing, ie waived interest on a 1.5m loan, for something like 18%. The club now has a development in Roadstone that has presumably added to the club's book value.

[Calcio Jack]

Thank you1 I asked the question on whether the share were transferred to be returned when the loan is repayed or was it that the 50% would move in to Wilson ownership if repayment wasnt made. 2 very different and very relevant scenarios.

Wilson lent us €1.5m and he has a lien on 50% of the shares - we fully pay back the loan as per its terms and that’s that.

If we don’t repay the loan then 50% of the shares will transfer to RW

So RWs’s loan interest free was extremely benevolent - because let’s face it if we can’t repay it then most likely he’s only getting 50% of nothing.

So if DD is intending investing €3m he will want a return ( for something as speculative as this he’d expect a min of 20%pa). On the basis that he’s got an incredible positive track record Rovers would have to deliver a serious amount of success in Europe or find 3/4 or so players per year to sell on to overseas clubs- which would mean us returning as usual to our historical natural position as Ireland’s leading club -

Could be exciting times ahead- but as yet nothing agreed .

[marinobohs]

Wilson lent us €1.5m and he has a lien on 50% of the shares - we fully pay back the loan as per its terms and that’s that.

If we don’t repay the loan then 50% of the shares will transfer to RW

So RWs’s loan interest free was extremely benevolent - because let’s face it if we can’t repay it then most likely he’s only getting 50% of nothing.

So if DD is intending investing €3m he will want a return ( for something as speculative as this he’d expect a min of 20%pa). On the basis that he’s got an incredible positive track record Rovers would have to deliver a serious amount of success in Europe or find 3/4 or so players per year to sell on to overseas clubs- which would mean us returning as usual to our historical natural position as Ireland’s leading club -

Could be exciting times ahead- but as yet nothing agreed .

Or, like so many other clubs (like the former SRFC) crash and burn.

[Ezeikial]

which would mean us returning as usual to our historical natural position as Ireland’s leading club -


I have read about this in the history books, but it's not something that has been the case over my lifetime.

Rovers would even struggle with the claim to be the most successful Dublin club over the last 30 years, with only 3 league titles in that period.

[Nesta99]

I don't know but if he is paid back the shares either transfer back if they were transferred to him or he doesn't get them as he has been repaid. Either way if he is paid back he doesn't get the shares to keep

He can influence a lot of decisions over the term of the loan if he got a 'temporary' 50% stake as opposed to the 50% mitigating against defaulting down the line. Pretty important info and it seems that there is confusion over it. It certainly wasnt pointed or clarified out in previous discussions!!

[marinobohs]

He can influence a lot of decisions over the term of the loan if he got a 'temporary' 50% stake as opposed to the 50% mitigating against defaulting down the line. Pretty important info and it seems that there is confusion over it. It certainly wasnt pointed or clarified out in previous discussions!!

To be fair the Wilson 'investment' was somewhat risk free for the club as he was a confirmed longstanding fan and therefore unlikely to go against the best interest of the club, even to protect his investment.Any new outside investor is unlikely to be so understanding and much more concerned with his investment than with SRFC.
with a new stadium (thanks to of SDCC) what are shams getting to sell off their club ? money to spunk on wages ? Anything else that might make giving up even part of their club worthwhile ?

[sbgawa]

He can influence a lot of decisions over the term of the loan if he got a 'temporary' 50% stake as opposed to the 50% mitigating against defaulting down the line. Pretty important info and it seems that there is confusion over it. It certainly wasnt pointed or clarified out in previous discussions!!

One thing i do know for certain is that the members club control the board so whichever way his 50% is held he can't influence things that the members dont want.
Regarding the question of where the money would go , i would imagine a lot into the academy in terms of more full time paid coaches and increased facilities as well as some support for the first team as well as beefing up the comercial end of the business.

[Ezeikial]

One thing i do know for certain is that the members club control the board so whichever way his 50% is held he can't influence things that the members dont want.
Regarding the question of where the money would go , i would imagine a lot into the academy in terms of more full time paid coaches and increased facilities as well as some support for the first team as well as beefing up the comercial end of the business.

Why would the commercial side need further investment or incur more costs?

Since Brendan Murray was appointed CEO in summer of 2016, the former FAI sponsorship, marketing & events manager, Siobhán Keane was appointed Chief Operating Officer. Whatever about administrative appointments being an extra layer of costs, surely the intent with commercial appointments is that they would not just cover their costs, but also provide a return on investment?

As an aside about the influence or power of Ray Wilson and Seumas Dawes at the time it was widely touted that these appointments came on the back of their nomination of Michael O’Rourke of Setanta and Stephen Gleeson of Hyundai to the Shamrock Rovers board

[marinobohs]

One thing i do know for certain is that the members club control the board so whichever way his 50% is held he can't influence things that the members dont want.
Regarding the question of where the money would go , i would imagine a lot into the academy in terms of more full time paid coaches and increased facilities as well as some support for the first team as well as beefing up the comercial end of the business.

That's true but 50% also means he could block any proposal (as could members) as I said I don't think this was a problem given his personal commitment to the club. not sure that improving the Academy and ****ing away money on short term possible success would be worth giving up membership model but that's a call for the members.

[sbgawa]

That's true but 50% also means he could block any proposal (as could members) as I said I don't think this was a problem given his personal commitment to the club. not sure that improving the Academy and ****ing away money on short term possible success would be worth giving up membership model but that's a call for the members.

The academy is where the future of the club is.
Investment here is more important than anything.

[sbgawa]

Why would the commercial side need further investment or incur more costs?

Since Brendan Murray was appointed CEO in summer of 2016, the former FAI sponsorship, marketing & events manager, Siobhán Keane was appointed Chief Operating Officer. Whatever about administrative appointments being an extra layer of costs, surely the intent with commercial appointments is that they would not just cover their costs, but also provide a return on investment?

As an aside about the influence or power of Ray Wilson and Seumas Dawes at the time it was widely touted that these appointments came on the back of their nomination of Michael O’Rourke of Setanta and Stephen Gleeson of Hyundai to the Shamrock Rovers board

You can always improve EZ , A CEO and a COO need back up and sales people to maximize results on the commercial side , like most LOI clubs on tight budgets full time staff are in short supply.
Rays Directors are irrelevant in terms of control , they don't control the board the members club do.
Anyway, lets see if anything comes of it, its not the first time this and other stories have been floated

[Ezeikial]

You can always improve EZ , A CEO and a COO need back up and sales people to maximize results on the commercial side , like most LOI clubs on tight budgets full time staff are in short supply.
Rays Directors are irrelevant in terms of control , they don't control the board the members club do.
Anyway, lets see if anything comes of it, its not the first time this and other stories have been floated


I can only assume that this " beefing up the comercial end of the business " is just an idle guess rather than an informed or identified need

It should be a concern if creating two new executive positions resulted in even more administrative costs rather than actually generating revenue. On the other hand, if additional personnel are needed because of successful new commercial activities, then that is self-funding, without any additional investment capital required.

[Calcio Jack]

I can only assume that this " beefing up the comercial end of the business " is just an idle guess rather than an informed or identified need

It should be a concern if creating two new executive positions resulted in even more administrative costs rather than actually generating revenue. On the other hand, if additional personnel are needed because of successful new commercial activities, then that is self-funding, without any additional investment capital required.

Thanks for that master class in business/economics , wed never of been able to figure that out for ourselves.

Don’t worry I’m sure Dermot Desmond is already checking in here and taking note of all your interest in us .... surely only a matter of time before his people make contact with yours to offer you a role as villiage idiot in residence

[sbgawa]

Lol , I knew that c in leaving cert economics wouldn't go to waste.

[Ezeikial]

Thanks for that master class in business/economics , wed never of been able to figure that out for ourselves.



You're welcome

Hopefully Hoops execs Brendan Murray and/or Siobhán Keane already have that figured out, even if sbgawa hadn't.

[marinobohs]

Lol , I knew that c in leaving cert economics wouldn't go to waste.

And it was only your 7th attempt at the leaving cert 😁

[Nesta99]

One thing i do know for certain is that the members club control the board so whichever way his 50% is held he can't influence things that the members dont want.
Regarding the question of where the money would go , i would imagine a lot into the academy in terms of more full time paid coaches and increased facilities as well as some support for the first team as well as beefing up the comercial end of the business.

No he cant enforce a decision that the members down want but he can certainly influence boardroom decisions, especially on day to day issues if not long term policy. If he cant contribute, bar financially, its a wasted position on a board. I highly doubt he would sit in the corner with his finger on his lip!

[sbgawa]

Of course not Nesta , my point was really that once the members control the board they have the ultimate say.
The question is will Dermot Desmond (or anyone else) invest big money without control?
Peak 6 wanted control and maybe a major investor in Rovers would want the same.
All will be revealed i guess, if there is anything in it at all other than paper talk.

[Nesta99]

Its all speculation I know. Peak6 didnt really change the board bar adding Mike Tracey and the previous owners stepping down. Day to day issues are dealt with as before. Player budget is set and managed by VP, the level of that budget may have changed. Peak6 obviously have a veto especially if its expenditure on infrastructure where a lick of paint is even hard to come by!

[Ezeikial]

It looks like Cobh have nipped in while others were dithering


John O'Shea‏ @JohnOShea1993 (https://twitter.com/JohnOShea1993)

Cobh Ramblers set to announce a partnership with @CelticFC (https://twitter.com/CelticFC) in the coming weeks. Members told about this at AGM over the weekend.



https://twitter.com/JohnOShea1993/status/1102894665878118400

[sbgawa]

Nice association for cobh, should help them with player recruitment. I wonder what is the connection.

[Ezeikial]

Nice association for cobh, should help them with player recruitment. I wonder what is the connection.

It may be totally unrelated, but Dermot Desmond is originally from Co Cork

[Nesta99]

Wouldn't Cork City then have serious potential with Desmond investment or is Foras very closed to the idea of external investment potentially impacting on the Foras model? There is some precednce with Rovers that they would consider adjusting shareholdings if things made sense, but maybe with the battle that Foras had still pretty fresh in the minds its a tougher proposition. I feel that CCFC have greater growth potential with a big injection of cash as Rovers already well down that road and its almost like getting in on the act when the hard work is done. Its a gap in the efforts of Dundalk owners also not to seem to be looking at a proper academy facility and set up. Maybe there is capacity at Oriel Park itself without needing to look at additional sites. I would like to see some agreement with an educational facility to allow youths train, get fed properly and not miss out on an education similar to Rovers. Its not just on Oriel Park that we are chaing the pack and the gap widening!!

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Wouldn't Cork City then have serious potential with Desmond investment or is Foras very closed to the idea of external investment potentially impacting on the Foras model? There is some precednce with Rovers that they would consider adjusting shareholdings if things made sense, but maybe with the battle that Foras had still pretty fresh in the minds its a tougher proposition. I feel that CCFC have greater growth potential with a big injection of cash as Rovers already well down that road and its almost like getting in on the act when the hard work is done. Its a gap in the efforts of Dundalk owners also not to seem to be looking at a proper academy facility and set up. Maybe there is capacity at Oriel Park itself without needing to look at additional sites. I would like to see some agreement with an educational facility to allow youths train, get fed properly and not miss out on an education similar to Rovers. Its not just on Oriel Park that we are chaing the pack and the gap widening!!

There's sort of precedence with Rovers but that's with a lifelong fan with a history of helping the club out financially and on very reasonable terms. Any club would go for that. A complete outsider carries a lot more risk so needs to be approached a lot more cautiously

[Nesta99]

There's sort of precedence with Rovers but that's with a lifelong fan with a history of helping the club out financially and on very reasonable terms. Any club would go for that. A complete outsider carries a lot more risk so needs to be approached a lot more cautiously

Dont we at Dundalk know it, Not that we could do much about it!!

[El-Pietro]

FORAS membership would generally be very wary of outside investment. It would be very difficult to convince a majority of the membership to trust someone coming in from the outside. There has been rumblings in recent months that we may need to find ways to get more investment but I'm not even sure its legally possible under our current structure, due to the one person one vote nature of co-ops, it would be a massive change.

[sbgawa]

FORAS membership would generally be very wary of outside investment. It would be very difficult to convince a majority of the membership to trust someone coming in from the outside. There has been rumblings in recent months that we may need to find ways to get more investment but I'm not even sure its legally possible under our current structure, due to the one person one vote nature of co-ops, it would be a massive change.

Its one person one vote at Rovers too so whatever change is mooted will need to be accepted.

[Ezeikial]

Dermot Desmond set to take 25% stake in Shamrock Rovers


Dermot Desmond could be set to become a 25% stakeholder in Shamrock Rovers if proposals are passed at a general meeting in the coming weeks.

Desmond is one of the richest people in Ireland and is the largest individual shareholder in Scottish champions Celtic (https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2019/0104/1020258-celtic-eyeing-up-investment-in-shamrock-rovers/).

Shamrock Rovers were reconstituted as a members club owned by fans in 2005, though they changed to a hybrid model when Ray Wilson took a one-quarter stake in the club in 2016.

In a statement release by Rovers, it is explained that proposals have been developed in recent months between the board and Wilson to bring Desmond on board.

"This proposal is the latest potential evolution in the hybrid model of fan ownership combined with private ownership and is a structure that the board of directors of the Members Club feel is a long term sustainable model that will propel Shamrock Rovers forward on and off the pitch," said the statement.

In a note to club members, Desmond said that should he become a shareholder in the club his intention is not in pursuit of monetary gain and there is no financial or asset play.

Rovers are currently second in the Premier Division, though they can't catch Dundalk, who have already been crowned champions this season.

Rovers play their home games at Tallaght Stadium in DublinThe statement said: "His sole motivation in considering this investment is to advance the cause of Shamrock Rovers.

"Mr Desmond is especially interested in supporting Shamrock Rovers' ambitious plans to further develop the club's Academy and building on the very strong foundations laid by the club in recent years.

"Mr Desmond sees any involvement with Shamrock Rovers as being more akin to a trustee than a shareholder.

"He believes that the proposed investment would put the club on a sound financial footing, providing stability to allow the long term benefits of the club’s Academy plan to bear fruit and to afford Shamrock Rovers the continued opportunity to credibly pursue success on the pitch."

The group of fans who own 75% the club have been provided with the information on the proposed deal and will shortly convene a general meeting to formally vote on accepting or rejecting the proposals.

The statement concluded: "Should the proposals be accepted by the membership, the new ownership structure of Shamrock Rovers will be made up of the Members Club (50%), Mr Ray Wilson (25%) and Mr Dermot Desmond (25%).

"There will be no further comment by any party involved in the discussions until after the general meeting."

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2019/1005/1081331-dermot-desmond-set-to-take-25-stake-in-shamrock-rovers/

[Park_Lane]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2019/1005/1081331-dermot-desmond-set-to-take-25-stake-in-shamrock-rovers/

Interesting proposal from DD. He claims he will be acting as a 'trustee' of the club although legally he will be a 25% shareholder. Still nothing on how much he will pay to be 25% shareholder, and will the ordinary member have their membership fee reduced seeing as their shareholding will be reduced.?

[White Horse]

"In a note to club members, Mr. Desmond confirmed that should he become a shareholder in Shamrock Rovers his intention is not in pursuit of monetary gain and there is no financial or asset play. Mr. Desmond noted that he would expect any positive future cash flow generated to be reinvested in the club such that all stakeholders (including supporters, players, coaching staff, management and sponsors etc.) will benefit. Mr. Desmond stated that his sole motivation in considering this investment is to advance the cause of Shamrock Rovers."

I'm always wary of businessmen making an investment sound like a donation. Forgive my skepticism.

[D24Saint]

"In a note to club members, Mr. Desmond confirmed that should he become a shareholder in Shamrock Rovers his intention is not in pursuit of monetary gain and there is no financial or asset play. Mr. Desmond noted that he would expect any positive future cash flow generated to be reinvested in the club such that all stakeholders (including supporters, players, coaching staff, management and sponsors etc.) will benefit. Mr. Desmond stated that his sole motivation in considering this investment is to advance the cause of Shamrock Rovers."

I'm always wary of businessmen making an investment sound like a donation. Forgive my skepticism.

Not always a bad thing I’d say we would be bust without Mr K.

[Longfordian]

Any chance of the members voting against it?

[Yossarian]

If he wanted to become a shareholder could he not just have joined like any ordinary supporter?

[marinobohs]

"In a note to club members, Mr. Desmond confirmed that should he become a shareholder in Shamrock Rovers his intention is not in pursuit of monetary gain and there is no financial or asset play. Mr. Desmond noted that he would expect any positive future cash flow generated to be reinvested in the club such that all stakeholders (including supporters, players, coaching staff, management and sponsors etc.) will benefit. Mr. Desmond stated that his sole motivation in considering this investment is to advance the cause of Shamrock Rovers."

I'm always wary of businessmen making an investment sound like a donation. Forgive my skepticism.

Dermot Desmond is probably Ireland’s most successful investor but nonsense to say he is not in it for profit. What’s the alternative? His “love of Tallaght” ? His (todate) well hidden love of LOI ?
I can see some financial potential in developing the academy side (farming kids to UK) and if he said that I’d understand but investing his own money for no return ? Sounds out of character.

[Kingswood Rover]

First dibs on our good young lads, this is a very similar model to the German leagues and so i would not like anything less than 50 % shareholding for the ordinary members, might be something that needs putting in the clubs constitution if its not there already as i am not a member i do not know. One thing that this might do is to encourage investment in other clubs. Dermot might help us get within 10 next season

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

"His sole motivation in considering this investment is to advance the cause of Shamrock Rovers.

Is this an FAI statement? How many games has Desmond attended?

[Sonny]

First dibs on our good young lads

Seems clear that is not the case. Celtic are not involved in the deal in any way.

[Ezeikial]

"His sole motivation in considering this investment is to advance the cause of Shamrock Rovers.

Is this an FAI statement? How many games has Desmond attended?

Dermot Desmond is well known for his philanthropy (https://www.independent.ie/business/philanthropy-is-the-new-charity-for-a-flushed-few-26380605.html). Altrusim is his reason for being.

Even the most gullible Hoopers won't believe this guff, but may still dilute their shareholding

[Dalymountrower]

Sole motivation is " to advance the cause of Shamrock Rovers"? Maybe Desmond, suddenly has developed a gra for the Hoops? maybe it is hard headed business decision and he does get dibs/ return on all academy players sold? Apart from the dwindling number of Rovers members who remember the consequences of not having full control of their club, and who oppose this, I would think that the money and the known and unknown strings attached will be accepted by a large majority.

Should be careful of what is said here given that he and his Siamese twin Denis O`Brien and fellow INM shareholder, have initiated over 50 separate legal actions , not including countless threats of actions for defamation, following the adverse findings against them both in the Moriarty Report.

Anyway, its Rover`s business, but I would have thought that they were steadily gaining ground on Dundalk with their existing model , without having to sell out to the self-styled " Kaiser".

[Sonny]

Sole motivation is " to advance the cause of Shamrock Rovers"? Maybe Desmond, suddenly has developed a gra for the Hoops? maybe it is hard headed business decision and he does get dibs/ return on all academy players sold?


I think it's fair and completely reasonable to be skeptical of Desmond's stated motivations, but are you seriously suggesting that the Rovers board are openly lying to members about the terms of an investment they are asking them to approve? That is absolute fantasy stuff.

I don't necessarily buy the altruism angle, but to me there is little risk in giving up a minority stake at a generous valuation while the members and Ray Wilson retain 75%. Rovers get a cash injection, an injection of expertise at Board level, and the commercial benefits that will accrue from partnering with Desmond.

I'd imagine the reality is that Desmond sees large growth potential in a historically successful Dublin club that wear green and white hoops, play in a modern stadium and have a large latent/passive/lapsed fan base across the city. The European games and the Bohs games in Tallaght this season (some of which Desmond attended) felt like something different to your standard LOI experience and showed a bit of the potential there. There is a long, long, long way to go for any of that to be realised, but I can see why Desmond could be interested.

[White Horse]

There is a long, long, long way to go for any of that to be realised, but I can see why Desmond could be interested.

If I was a Rovers fan, I would want to know why is interested and what is motivation is. I would not want to be in a position where I had to guess it.

[Sonny]

If I was a Rovers fan, I would want to know why is interested and what is motivation is. I would not want to be in a position where I had to guess it.


He has given his explanation of his motivation and it is up to members to decide if its satisfactory or not. Regardless though it still comes down to risk from my perspective. The club has no real physical assets to strip, there are no problematic conditions attached to the investment, and significant majority control remains with the members and Ray Wilson (who is as committed to Rovers as any member).

I'm honestly not having a go, but if you compare this situation to Peak 6 obtaining 100% control of Dundalk for a fraction of the valuation and gaining complete control of substantial cash reserves in the process, the Desmond proposition seems a no-brainer. There is virtually no conceivable way he could financially benefit from the investment in a manner that is detrimental to the football club.

[EatYerGreens]

Seems clear that is not the case. Celtic are not involved in the deal in any way.

I'd say it's probably naïve to believe this though ?

Celtic themselves can't buy shares in Rovers, without being ineligible for Europe. If only there was someone very closely associated with Celtic who could help them get round that by buying a share in Rovers under his own name...

[EatYerGreens]

Presumign that company law in the republic means that a 75% +1 holding gives majority control, then suely Rovers should be selling only a 24.99% share to Desmond ? Otherwise he'd have the ability to bock certain key deciisons.