Given and penalties

[OwlsFan]

What is it about Shay and penalties ? A superb shot stopper but can't get within an asses roar of a penalty. I was in Korea to see him go the wrong way for ALL 5 - not just fail to save but go the wrong way everytime. Since then I've watched with interest his performances at penos. He has gone the wrong way at almost everyone - I didn't see the two this weekend so can't comment except he obviously didn't save them. Take it as read I don't expect a keeper to save a peno but many do except our Shay.

Do he commit himself way too early or what ?

[Stuttgart88]

I've noticed the same thing & said it in the "Weekend's Irish" post earlier today! He really could use some training in this area.

I think he dives way too early. The only pennos I can remember him saving were against Van Nistelrooy and one against Zola years ago. Even a blind pig can find a truffle once in a while, as my boss reminds me.

Paddy Kenny looked more convincing in the shoot-out vs West Ham. He was injured in the Arsenal shoot-out.

Funny, but in the 1990 Scottish Cup Final Bonner conceded 8 out of 8 penalties against Aberdeen. 4 weeks later he let in the first 4 against Romania and became a legend after the next one. 13th time lucky I suppose.

[OwlsFan]

The interesting thing about the Bonner penos is that he went the right way for them all!!

[Stuttgart88]

That's right. Unfortunately Shay seems to go the wrong way for them all!

[Junior]

What is it about Shay and penalties ? A superb shot stopper but can't get within an asses roar of a penalty. I was in Korea to see him go the wrong way for ALL 5 - not just fail to save but go the wrong way everytime. Since then I've watched with interest his performances at penos. He has gone the wrong way at almost everyone - I didn't see the two this weekend so can't comment except he obviously didn't save them. Take it as read I don't expect a keeper to save a peno but many do except our Shay.

Do he commit himself way too early or what ?

Don't dispute the above, though the final peno against Spain, Mendietta's shot right down the middle, just hit a bobble that took it over Givens outstretched leg - what might have been heh?

[Colm55]

Doesn't bother me too much that he's a little dodgy on the pennos, in my opinion there is no excuse for a designated penno taker missing one, a top class striker of the ball should always put it into the bottom corner, no questions asked. Keepers should have no chance. Shays a legend, I have the highest confidence in the guy, he has saved us so many times in over his international career, to be honest nit picking at the chap is bad form.

[OwlsFan]

Not really nit picking. It is an important part of a keeper's skill. David Seaman used to save a rakeful and if Given was any better at them we would have had a berth in the last 16 in Jap/Kor. It is painful to watch - this mad leap to one side before the kicker has taken his shot.

Maybe he's saving a biggie for the game against France :D

[roboyle]

I was thinking about this when I was watching the highlights on the Premiership at the weekend (incidentally, the penalty kick awarded against Stephen Carr was never a foul, even then the 'challenge' was outside the box)... anyway, it's strange to see a keeper go the wrong way so many times - if Packie Bonnar had some technique he used when he played then he hasn't passed it on to Shay in training...
Ultimately penalties are part lottery, part football skill - a keeper should not take too much of the blame (nor for that matter, too much of the glory), when it comes to spot kicks. When you think that Nacho Novo of Rangers had never missed a penalty kick in professional football before arrving in Scotland and has now missed two this season, that's hardly his 'fault' nor the quality of the goalkeepers he faces but a bit of luck for the goalies and bad luck for him...

[brine3]

I remember Shay making an incredible save from a Bergkamp peno a few years back.

And how many penos did Packie stop for Ireland? I can only recall one off the top of my head.

[SÓC]

I always think keepers will save much much more penos if they stay until its hit.

That way they'll stop all the ones down the middle and the poorly hit other ones

[onenilgameover]

I'm glad this is being discussed. I've been thinking that about Shay for awhile and I only remember him once ever saving a peno. Its something that really has to be addressed if we are looking to do well in the world cup if we qualify. Its a huge part of the competition and the weakest part of Shay's game.

[tricky_colour]

Well if he goes the wrong way every time he may as well stand his ground,
at least he will get cheeky chips down the middle and will have an outside
chance of getting something if he waits untill the ball is struck.

I think if you wait it puts more pressure on the penalty taker and they may just aim it a little to close to the post 'to make sure'. I think you have to mix
it up a bit though, and make your mind up well in advance and stick to
your decision.

I guess a lot of it boils down to luck though.

My tip would be "Close your eyes untill the ball is struck" :D (might work?)

[OwlsFan]

I see Chelsea scored against Newcastle last w/e from the peno spot. Didn't see it. Did Given (assuming he was in goal) go the wrong way again ?

[Metrostars]

Would Kerr ever pull out Given in the 119th minute of a World Cup finals game when the score is even and throw on Kenny for the penos?
I saw a team in MLS do this a few years ago in the playoffs semis, sub goalie comes on and saves 2 penos and they win.

[McCanada]

Given dove to the right early, and Lampard ended up slipping and kicking right down the middle. Would have kicked it right down his throat if he stayed put. I can't see Kerr taking off Given for Kenny in a penalty kick situation. It would be a real slap in the face, and penalties are such that even I could get lucky and stop a couple.

Kenny has a bit of a reputation for stopping them, but had that bad hip which hindered him in the FA Cup against the Arse. The departed Kiely is probably the best Irish goalie for PK's, and isn't one Niall Quinn known for stopping teammates penalties' for money? Perhaps if Stuart Pierce was our manager instead of Mick in 2002, Quinner would have been donning the gloves....

[tetsujin1979]

Quinn once scored and saved a penalty in the same game! It was for Man City, think it was against Derby, the keeper got sent off, and a penalty was awarded. Quinn put on the gloves and promplty saved the spot kick!

[tricky_colour]

Would Kerr ever pull out Given in the 119th minute of a World Cup finals game when the score is even and throw on Kenny for the penos?
I saw a team in MLS do this a few years ago in the playoffs semis, sub goalie comes on and saves 2 penos and they win.


Seems a sensible idea if you have a keeper who is better at stopping
penalties I don't know if that is a the case but I am sure you can easilly
calculate a keepers 'success' ratio. There is probably a web site with
such statistics on somewhere, but I couldn't find it.

I did find this article about penalty taking though.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/uwic/ujpa/2002/00000002/00000001/art00007

[BobtheDrog]

heard packie bonner say recently that he went the right way for the romanian penalties because the irish coaching staff had scouted the romanians and knew their tells so packie was able to go the right way, these days penalty taking has somewhat involved and its harder to judge where the tker is going to put the ball

[tricky_colour]

A lot of penalty taking probably comes down to psychology anyway,
if you put out the idea that you have the oppositions penalty taking well
researched its not going you do do you any harm is it? Whether you have
done your homework or not!!

Sending out the message that you have not done any preperation (and not
actually doing any preperation) is not a very good idea is it? It will leave
our players low on confidence and the opposition high on confidence and
confidence is half the battle.

Failing to prepare is preparing to fail, as they say.
(oops am I beginning to sound like Roy Keane in Saipan ;)

[Donal81]

Keepers come in different guises. Oliver Kahn's trick is to make himself look enormous and is very difficult to beat one-on-one and from a decent distance as well. Casillas is brilliant up close, his shot-stopping instincts are excellent. Shay's a brilliant keeper and I think we forget how blessed we've been with decent keepers over the years.

Like Colm 55 said, any decent penalty taker shouldn't miss from 12 yards. I don't think there's too much Shay can do here as a lot of it surely comes down to guessing the right way and sticking to it.

True, though, I can't remember him saving a penalty. Then again, I can only remember Bonner saving one!

[Stuttgart88]

He saved one against Zola in a friendly on TV one time & I think he saved one from Van Nistelrooy once. But that's about all I can remember.

The worry is that he never even seems to get close. He signals his intentions & dives too early IMO.

[tricky_colour]

Well in the FA cup final 9 out of 10 penalties were converted
and these are 'top' premiership keepers so I think the onus is probably
more on the penalty takers taking good penalties.

It seems to be the ones that are 'blasted' (Scholes's) that are saved (the keepers move early, so the extra pace is of no real advantage if the keeper
goes the right way, however the ones which are placed rarely seem to
get saved.)

Stuart Pearce's blast in the the World Cup finals is an example which
springs to mind.

So I would say a short run up and a placed shot is the best oprion, pace is
nullified by keepers going early.

[tricky_colour]

He saved one against Zola in a friendly on TV one time & I think he saved one from Van Nistelrooy once. But that's about all I can remember.

The worry is that he never even seems to get close. He signals his intentions & dives too early IMO.


I think the problem is keepers look better if they go early and make
a spectular save, if they wait for one chipped down the midde they
will get no credit for it.
Comments such as "My grandma could have saved that!!" would be the order of the day.

[ColinR]

I think the problem is keepers look better if they go early and make
a spectular save, if they wait for one chipped down the midde they
will get no credit for it.
Comments such as "My grandma could have saved that!!" would be the order of the day.

as a keeper, i pretty much would never stay central (but move as late as possible, but still slightly before the bal is hit), unless the taker took a straight run at the ball. normally the run up would come up for either side. mormally i would go by which footed a player was - and guess that a player who doesn't normally take a penalty will not shout across his body i.e. a right footer will shoot to is right, and left footer to his left.

from about 12 or 1 shout outs i've been in, only once have i let in all five. regul;ar penalty takers, i have a bit more difficulty trying to read, but sure if you even guess right, a good penalty with power to the corner should always be scored.

[jimbob117]

Well in the FA cup final 9 out of 10 penalties were converted
and these are 'top' premiership keepers so I think the onus is probably
more on the penalty takers taking good penalties.



Woudnt call either of them 'top' keepers. would be suprised if either get a game next year, hopefully given will be at one of them(or my preference liverpool)

[tricky_colour]

as a keeper, i pretty much would never stay central (but move as late as possible, but still slightly before the bal is hit), unless the taker took a straight run at the ball. normally the run up would come up for either side. mormally i would go by which footed a player was - and guess that a player who doesn't normally take a penalty will not shout across his body i.e. a right footer will shoot to is right, and left footer to his left.

from about 12 or 1 shout outs i've been in, only once have i let in all five. regul;ar penalty takers, i have a bit more difficulty trying to read, but sure if you even guess right, a good penalty with power to the corner should always be scored.

I remember when I played in goal for five a side,I was saving virtually
everything, all I did was look where they were looking and went that
way just before they shot. The only one which I didn't save was when the
player didn't look up, he just kept his head down and blasted it.
One of their players commented that they didn't think they were ever
going to score past me!! It's pretty automatic that you look where you
are going to put the ball.

[cullenswood]

I remember when I played in goal for five a side,I was saving virtually
everything, all I did was look where they were looking and went that
way just before they shot. The only one which I didn't save was when the
player didn't look up, he just kept his head down and blasted it.
One of their players commented that they didn't think they were ever
going to score past me!! It's pretty automatic that you look where you
are going to put the ball.

When I used to take penalties, I used to nearly make sure the keeper saw me glancing up to the left and always put it to the right! Keepers never saved one! :D :D

[tricky_colour]

When I used to take penalties, I used to nearly make sure the keeper saw me glancing up to the left and always put it to the right! Keepers never saved one! :D :D


I think I would have spotted that old ruse :D :D

Mine weren't penalties though just normal shots (we were not very good!!)

However I think you have to look in the right direction at some point,
such is hand eye (foot eye) coordination.

[eirebhoy]

I remember when I played in goal for five a side,I was saving virtually
everything, all I did was look where they were looking and went that
way just before they shot. The only one which I didn't save was when the
player didn't look up, he just kept his head down and blasted it.
One of their players commented that they didn't think they were ever
going to score past me!! It's pretty automatic that you look where you
are going to put the ball.
I actually won a shootout competition in one of those tiny goals. I looked one side and shot the other. A few of us scored in the first round. the next round I looked one way and shot in the same corner I was looking and the keeper thought I was trying to fool him again and went the other way. :)

Arsenal clearly spent a lot of time practising peno's. Every one of the penalties were high.

[2Olegend]

I think you have to mix it up a bit though, and make your mind up well in advance and stick to
your decision.




I think shay's would save more if he made up his mind which way to go and then .... at the last instant ..... change it and go the other way

[Seano]

I think Shays problem with penalties is something that has stopped him being a world class keeper and thats his height. At 6 ' he is not as intimidating and doesn't have the reach of the really great keepers . Sure he's agile , but I always think its easier for striker to pick a spot in the goal that he can't get to than the really top class keepers, i thinking particularly of the Iserali equaliser, Klose's header for Germany in the world cup, Luc Neilis V Belguim at landsdowne a few years back. I still think he's a greater keeper with good reflexes for anything relatively near him, but its unfortunate for him and us that he's not 6'4.

[OwlsFan]

I think shay's would save more if he made up his mind which way to go and then .... at the last instant ..... change it and go the other way

:D Funny, I thought that myself. I think his problem is he sets off too early. Oh that peno from Mendieta still hurts - that bobble over his leg. :eek:

[onenilgameover]

I really think practising peno's is a must...Benitez was on there the other day talkin bout the same ol mantra that its all about what happens on the day and who feels they are right to take one. I think this is utter tripe...Pratice is the only way to overcome nerves and bad spot kicking. I gaurantee if you where to set Kevin Kilbane, Dave Connolly, Matt Holland and feckin Ian Harte a task to complete 100 penalty kicks in the two days before the a match were it was seriously possible that it would be decided by penalties that they would have taken better penalties. (Well Maybe not Kilbane) This has all been gone through before but it seems lessons are not learned. I think shay needs some serious work in the Penalty department too.... :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Eirambler]

I really think practising peno's is a must...Benitez was on there the other day talkin bout the same ol mantra that its all about what happens on the day and who feels they are right to take one. I think this is utter tripe...Pratice is the only way to overcome nerves and bad spot kicking. I gaurantee if you where to set Kevin Kilbane, Dave Connolly, Matt Holland and feckin Ian Harte a task to complete 100 penalty kicks in the two days before the a match were it was seriously possible that it would be decided by penalties that they would have taken better penalties. (Well Maybe not Kilbane) This has all been gone through before but it seems lessons are not learned. I think shay needs some serious work in the Penalty department too.... :eek: :eek: :eek:

I reckon in terms of taking them no matter how many times you practice in a training ground it wont matter because its completely different when theres 50000 fans watching you.

Apparently Kilbane had been taking money off Quinn (in his penalty kicks competition) right through the World Cup but he still took a brutal penalty in the shootout against Spain.

Its different for goalies though, the best penalty savers all have tactics and approaches which they have developed over time to stop them

Watching the shootout the last day you always fancied Lehmann to save any penalty that wasnt very well struck, I've never thought that watching Shay

[tricky_colour]

Have to disagree about practising not mattering, it does, Wenger had Arsenal
practising and look how that payed off, all good penalties, short run ups
and placed.

The missed penalty, long run up and blasted is in my opinon the least likely
to succeed. I can recall several of those types missed, it's a hit and hope
penalty. It's going to be less accurate due to the power and probably
easier for the keeper to read.

I mean if practising doesn't matter why do players have training sessions? It's
pointless!! It will be different with 50,000 fans watching!!

[jimbob117]

Have to disagree about practising not mattering, it does, Wenger had Arsenal
practising and look how that payed off, all good penalties, short run ups
and placed.


Id have to disagree with ya. Its easy putting a peno in the back of the net in training, just like its easy to try fancy flicks and passing, but when there is so much pressure on ya its a whole different story. i remember i used to score penos in training for fun, but missed one in a shoot out as i lost my cool. its more how ya deal with the pressure situation i think more so than how many you have practised.

[2Olegend]

:- that bobble over his leg. :eek:


:( mendieta couldn't believe his luck. I agree he went too early :eek:

[Stuttgart88]

Watching the shootout the last day you always fancied Lehmann to save any penalty that wasnt very well struck, I've never thought that watching Shay

Me neither.

With regard to practice, of course practicing matters. But you have to practice properly, including walking from the centre circle & placing the ball etc. I know it sounds daft but you have to practice it all properly. Of course it's different under pressure but at the very worst, it can't do any harm can it?

[jimbob117]

Me neither.

With regard to practice, of course practicing matters. But you have to practice properly, including walking from the centre circle & placing the ball etc. I know it sounds daft but you have to practice it all properly. Of course it's different under pressure but at the very worst, it can't do any harm can it?

Course it cant do any harm, and has to be done but i think its how they handle the pressure more so than how much they practice

[tricky_colour]

Course it cant do any harm, and has to be done but i think its how they handle the pressure more so than how much they practice


The very fact that you have practised will help with the pressure, there can't
be nothing worse than standing in front of 50,000 people thinking "I wish I could have a couple of practise shots, or is my success rate better to the
left or right etc...." Then you take a long run up and blast is straight at the keeper!!


I suppose there is no point in rehearsing, corners, freekicks or set peices either? In fact with bother using a ball in training at all as it will be different
in front of 50,000.

[tricky_colour]

Have you noticed how it always seems to be the team which lost the
shooot-out whose mananger believes practising penalties is pointless?
I have.

[jimbob117]

The very fact that you have practised will help with the pressure, there can't
be nothing worse than standing in front of 50,000 people thinking "I wish I could have a couple of practise shots, or is my success rate better to the
left or right etc...." Then you take a long run up and blast is straight at the keeper!!


I suppose there is no point in rehearsing, corners, freekicks or set peices either? In fact with bother using a ball in training at all as it will be different
in front of 50,000.
What are you talking about? i said there was no harm in practising. A penalty kick is a lot more pressurised than taking a corner, free etc. Thought you'd have the cop on to understand my point. Obviously over estimated ya :o

[jimbob117]

Have you noticed how it always seems to be the team which lost the
shooot-out whose mananger believes practising penalties is pointless?
I have.

I dont remeber fergie sayin that.or england bosses now that i think of it

[tricky_colour]

I dont remeber fegie saying that. Or england bosses now i think of it.

http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2002/06/04/story53269.asp

Maybe this will refresh your memory!!


"The Arsenal goalkeeper revealed that the players were even imitating the walk from the centre circle to the penalty spot to put them in the best frame of mind possible for such a scenario arising.

It is in sharp contrast to the attitude displayed towards spot-kicks by then England coach Glenn Hoddle during the 1998 World Cup when his side lost on penalties to Argentina in the second round.

Hoddle has since claimed that ‘‘practising (penalties) until kingdom come isn’t necessarily the answer. In fact, it might just make matters worse‘‘.

Penalties will decide deadlocked matches after extra-time from the second round onwards and England have a sorry record in shoot-outs.

They lost the semi-finals of the 1990 World Cup and the 1996 European Championships on penalties plus that meeting with the Argentinians in St Etienne during France 98."

[jimbob117]

Didnt realise Hoddle didnt practise them, but Keegan and as far as i remember, Robson did, as does sven.

[tricky_colour]

http://worldcup.espnsoccernet.com/preview?match=48885&lang=en

"However, although the game could be close, Voeller claims the Germans have not been practising penalties.

In the past Germany's diligence in practising from the spot has paid off handsomely, such as during Italia `90 and Euro `96, but Voeller claims he is focused on winning during playing time."

[tricky_colour]

Practising penalties a load of old 'garbage' - McCarthy
Monday June 17th 2002

http://www.unison.ie/features/worldcup2002/stories.php?ca=236&si=775319

"THE discipline of practising penalties is "garbage" according to Irish manager Mick McCarthy, who watched his side crash out of the World Cup finals after missing FOUR spot-kicks.


"Practising penalties is garbage," he said in the aftermath of a dramatic 3-2 spot-kick defeat after the fighting Irish held Spain 1-1 in a pulsating second round tie in Suwon.


"We practised taking penalties two nights before, but it's about standing up and taking one if you fancy it on the night.""


OK he said they did some practise, but with his attitude to it it probably
was a waste of time, maybe if the kit had turned up on time they might have been able to do some thorough practise!!

[tricky_colour]

http://www.footballconference.co.uk/news/481.html


"We've been practising penalties for two weeks," he added. "That was our reward

[tricky_colour]

http://www.soccernet.com/euro2000/columns/20000515featnorman.html

"This notion that there is no way of preparing to take a penalty was the most doolally (no minor achievement) ever expressed by Keegan's predecessor, whose players did not practise from 12 yards because 'you can't replicate the pressure'. But nothing increases fear and therefore pressure like unfamiliarity, and with a couple of hours acclimatising himself to the experience behind him, who is to say that David Batty wouldn't have tucked his France 98 kick into the corner?
"

[tricky_colour]

http://forums.soccerfansnetwork.com/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=10602

Ireland go out on penalties. Was Roy Keane right all along? (Allsport)
No, these are lessons of arrogance, ignorance, sheer bloody mindedness and, above all, how to handle yourself with dignity in defeat.

Let's start with the Irish.

When deposed skipper Roy Keane told Mick McCarthy the side should practice penalties ahead of a possible shoot-out later in the competition, the Ireland boss said there was 'no need' at that stage as he had every confidence his players 'would hit the target'.

Granted, McCarthy's men finally got around to practising penalties a few days before their second round clash with Spain.

However, by missing four of the seven spot-kicks in the defeat, it was quite clear they should have started practising earlier.

Even under such intense pressure, there is no excuse for some of the most feeble spot-kicks I've ever seen!

So, for all his critics, Keane's own verdict has ultimately proved spot-on as his words have come back to haunt the Irish"