League of Ireland Finances

[marinobohs]

FAI granted a nice bit of funding for the Project all hail JD.

buying clubs off individually with public money is Delaneys way alright.

[littlebray]

Bump in an attempt to seek information. Hope I amn't breaking any rule!

Anyone recognise this "plan" for the development of the League? I saved it some time ago but didn't keep details of the source (doh!).

2788

[pineapple stu]

Don't recognise it - but presume you don't have a higher res version? Can't really read the details

[RathfarnhamHoop]

It will effect the annual balance sheet negatively. But you are right, until repayments are being made it wont impact on turnover but at some point unless written off the loan will come in to play. Is it a cash injection from a board member though, even if intended to pay for capital developments?

On a side note, is Roadstone owned by Rovers or part lease agreement involved? (genuine question!!).

It will never impact on turnover as it's a loan, turnover in basically a company's income generated. The loan will come into play in the sense that it will be repaid at some point one way or another but that's not what I'm talking about here. It is specifically not a cash injection from Ray.

What I'm saying is at present there is a rule that you cannot spend more than 65% of your turnover on wages, Dundalk in order to keep under that allowed limit have had to have their owners "sponsor" the club to the tune of a million euro, Rovers have not. That means that either Dundalk cut their wage bill drastically or they have to increase their turnover drastically and while they have earned an extra 700,000 this season compared to last their wages have also risen so it looks like Peak 6 will have to "sponsor" them again to make up the shortfall. That's not a sustainable business model, Dundalk are effectively banking on making the Europa league group stages every season or the play-offs at an absolute bare minimum.

It's a long term lease.

[Nesta99]

Fair enough I'm no accountant. It's the balance sheet that servicing a loan would effect then so. Out of interest where are you getting the figures of €1mil 'sponsorship'? You wont find a Dundalk fan that doesnt have at least some concern in the back of the minds on the need to make progress in Europe and as a club in general. A lot of effort is going in to maximising and adding income streams - It would be naive to be blinkered on club finances or take everything at face value!

You're sounding a bit evasive on the lease on Roadstone RH which has piqued my interest as I presumed it was fully owned by SRFC initially tbh. How long is a 'long term lease'? Who is it leased from, are they directly involved development (I dont want to use 'project' in case it comes across as snide!) Oriel Park, for example, has something like 80+ years to run on the lease I think and caused a good bit of grief when the club changed owership in 2012.

*just read the other thread. As it's the finance thread, looking back at the leagues finances blog - Rovers had accumulated debt of nearly €1m prior to Roadstone getting up and running and prior to good transfer fees in. There was also a season without European money. That debt would have to be managed somehow, I'm not convinced that every cent went to the development of the youth academy - some of the Wilson money is highly likely to have been directed to cover day to day costs or put a dent in accumulated debt. If that was the case then it is a cash injection from a board member albeit to be paid back when the club can afford to do so. That the membership were willing to remotely consider leveraging 50% ownership considering the history, effort of fans previously and how proud Rovers fans were about their ownership model - well I'm sure you can see why there would be speculation on the use of the whole loan!?

Rovers are a lucky club now after toughing it out for so long - a stadium that they can rent, a parcel of land that is leased to build a youth academy, no doubt with SCGs to help. This isnt at all sour grapes but if Dundalk were able to rent a modern stadium like Tallaght locally there would be some pot of money for player wages and to build a proper youth structure! Oriel Park is a serious drain on the clubs ability to really capitalise on this era of success.

[ToberonaTornado]

Are the OP bars on a different account from Dundalk FC(LTD) ?

[Ezeikial]

Are the OP bars on a different account from Dundalk FC(LTD) ?

Good luck with that one.

On second thoughts RH probably has the answer

[ToberonaTornado]

Good luck with that one.

Say nothing til ya hear more!
🤐

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Fair enough I'm no accountant. It's the balance sheet that servicing a loan would effect then so. Out of interest where are you getting the figures of €1mil 'sponsorship'? You wont find a Dundalk fan that doesnt have at least some concern in the back of the minds on the need to make progress in Europe and as a club in general. A lot of effort is going in to maximising and adding income streams - It would be naive to be blinkered on club finances or take everything at face value!

You're sounding a bit evasive on the lease on Roadstone RH which has piqued my interest as I presumed it was fully owned by SRFC initially tbh. How long is a 'long term lease'? Who is it leased from, are they directly involved development (I dont want to use 'project' in case it comes across as snide!) Oriel Park, for example, has something like 80+ years to run on the lease I think and caused a good bit of grief when the club changed owership in 2012.

*just read the other thread. As it's the finance thread, looking back at the leagues finances blog - Rovers had accumulated debt of nearly €1m prior to Roadstone getting up and running and prior to good transfer fees in. There was also a season without European money. That debt would have to be managed somehow, I'm not convinced that every cent went to the development of the youth academy - some of the Wilson money is highly likely to have been directed to cover day to day costs or put a dent in accumulated debt. If that was the case then it is a cash injection from a board member albeit to be paid back when the club can afford to do so. That the membership were willing to remotely consider leveraging 50% ownership considering the history, effort of fans previously and how proud Rovers fans were about their ownership model - well I'm sure you can see why there would be speculation on the use of the whole loan!?

Rovers are a lucky club now after toughing it out for so long - a stadium that they can rent, a parcel of land that is leased to build a youth academy, no doubt with SCGs to help. This isnt at all sour grapes but if Dundalk were able to rent a modern stadium like Tallaght locally there would be some pot of money for player wages and to build a proper youth structure! Oriel Park is a serious drain on the clubs ability to really capitalise on this era of success.

It was in a piece in the independent.

As for everything else Jesus christ talk about grasping at straws? How was I evasive about Roadstone? You asked was it owned of leased and I answered its a long term lease, it's owned by, you guessed it, Roadstone, as for how long it is I think theres at least a decade to run on it and there's plans in place to extend it once more facilities are built.

As for the debt bit, it was very well publicised at the time that the 1.5 million was being used to pay off the debt (yes essentially change who you owe it to but better to owe Ray money than anyone else) and invest in the facilities.

Lucky? Lucky? How the **** are we lucky? Rovers have worked damn hard for ever single thing that we have bar none. Getting a lease is luck now? **** off with that ****e. Dundalk could have the nicest stadium in the world and it wouldn't mean **** for the context of what I'm saying for their wages vs turnover.

[Nesta99]

Marino has competion for the angriest man on the internet title! So Rovers did get a cash injection from an investor then? Of course Rovers are lucky, Council with foresight and ambition means a nice new stadium, new training facilities payed for with an interest free loan + debts cleared, escaped extinction in the homless days, survived relegation even. I think Dundalk have been lucky too albeit not lucky enough to have a County Council buy in to the idea of a municpal stadium but other than that yeah we are lucky to be where we are!

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Marino has competion for the angriest man on the internet title! So Rovers did get a cash injection from an investor then? Of course Rovers are lucky, Council with foresight and ambition means a nice new stadium, new training facilities payed for with an interest free loan + debts cleared, escaped extinction in the homless days, survived relegation even. I think Dundalk have been lucky too albeit not lucky enough to have a County Council buy in to the idea of a municpal stadium but other than that yeah we are lucky to be where we are!

Yeah lucky is having scumbags pull a fast one and sell your home from under you, lucky is going from the best team in the country by an absolute mile to a bag of shirts and ball, lucky is playing wherever will have you, lucky is your fans taking out personal loans to keep the club afloat, lucky is meeting every obstacle possible when trying to build a ground. Having a loyal fan help the club isn't lucky, nor is anything about Tallaght stadium. Now you've already shown you know absolutely **** all about the topic so why don't you go off and learn about Rovers and Tallaght and educate yourself a bit before you spout even more ****e (Tales from the east stand have a couple great podcasts on the tallaght saga that show how "lucky" we were).

[Nesta99]

You are a bit of a glass half empty chap aren't you RH.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

You are a bit of a glass half empty chap aren't you RH.

No I just actually know what I'm talking about

[ToberonaTornado]

No I just actually know what I'm talking about

True,true :D

[sbgawa]

The two podcasts the east stand did around the Tallaght saga and the battle with Thomas Davis even after the examinership are fantastic listening.
The image of a line of fans queuing outside AIB to take out personal loans to give to the club at the founding of the 400 club is everything that is good about our League.
Id advise anyone to listen its beyond fascinating.

[Nesta99]

No I just actually know what I'm talking about

Oh to have a such loyal fan that that gives so freely to a club, a loan that hovers over the beloved members' ownership....for nothing...

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Oh to have a such loyal fan that that gives so freely to a club, a loan that hovers over the beloved members' ownership....for nothing...

If one lifelong fan and member that happens to be a millionaire owning 50% of a club is hovering over now you must be seriously scared of your American investment fund owning 100% of the club, especially when investments are done to make a profit and so far they're just losing money every year, I'd be very scared if I were a dundalk fan that the yanks will take everything out of the bank and run.

[marinobohs]

The two podcasts the east stand did around the Tallaght saga and the battle with Thomas Davis even after the examinership are fantastic listening.
The image of a line of fans queuing outside AIB to take out personal loans to give to the club at the founding of the 400 club is everything that is good about our League.
Id advise anyone to listen its beyond fascinating.

Yet those “loyal fans” had no problem pimping out 50% of their club the first chance they got.

When is THAT podcast ?

[Ezeikial]

I'd be very scared if I were a dundalk fan that the yanks will take everything out of the bank and run.

It's a distinct possibility that the current owners could bail out at some stage. In the meantime we will just have to be serene and enjoy all the league and cup successes

[sbgawa]

Yet those “loyal fans” had no problem pimping out 50% of their club the first chance they got.

When is THAT podcast ?

I put up a comment that a podcast is a really good listen and given the LOI history pretty relevant to lots of clubs and you respond with this................
Do you ever think about how you portray yourself.

[marinobohs]

I put up a comment that a podcast is a really good listen and given the LOI history pretty relevant to lots of clubs and you respond with this................
Do you ever think about how you portray yourself.

Most LOI clubs had difficulties, not so long ago there was bucket collections in Dalymount to help Dundalk ! Shels, Bohs Cork (various varieties) all struggled, many clubs didn’t survive, so spare us the “Shams tragedy “.
It is a fact your loyal fans pimped out 50% of your “fans owned” club the first chance they got.
No doubt Marino man 😁 Dermot Desmond won’t have to queue up to buy a chunk of the “members owned” club.

[placid casual]

And did it ever occur to you why this same Marino man is more interested in investing in Rovers and not the bohs?
My god snotnose, you really are as thick as a ditch.

[Eminence Grise]

Maybe we could all get along a lil' bit better without the constant need to whip out and compare members... Hm?

[marinobohs]

And did it ever occur to you why this same Marino man is more interested in investing in Rovers and not the bohs?
My god snotnose, you really are as thick as a ditch.
Bohs is a REAL members club, since 1890. We don’t pimp our club out like some.
<No need for this at all at all>
Yep, 1890.

[dundalkfc10]

If one lifelong fan and member that happens to be a millionaire owning 50% of a club is hovering over now you must be seriously scared of your American investment fund owning 100% of the club, especially when investments are done to make a profit and so far they're just losing money every year, I'd be very scared if I were a dundalk fan that the yanks will take everything out of the bank and run.

Since Day 1, they have provided everything to the club which they said they would.

Have not lied about anything.

They have not dipped into the funds in the bank (they are putting their own cash in)

Id believe they are in this for right reasons (no matter how much you want us to fail) tbf

[sbgawa]

I think the whole argument about Peak 6 and their intentions is kind of silly.
Either an American fund decided that they had a love of Ireland and specifically Dundalk and are investing for this love or they invested in the hope of a return.
I suspect it was the latter and that is fine with me ...what do people in the LOI community have against investments?
I understand the need for concern (look at the Cork debacle 10 years ago) or others but if the league is to grow we need investors.
They will run DFC and if they achieve their aim of getting a return DFC will be successful.
If they don't they will pull out but i don't think it will be like the Cork example as these people have other investments and reputations to keep.
I would imagine a sale at a knock down rather than a liquidation.
On the not dipping into the cash the last accounts showed only 1.2 in cash in the bank so i would'nt be so sure about that but even if they have been using that cash it is THEIRS to use ..they bought the club.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

Bohs is a REAL members club, since 1890. We don’t pimp our club out like some.
Surely even a moron like you knows that ?
Yep, 1890.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/bohemians-say-yes-to-the-sale-of-dalymount-park-in-65m-deal-26363606.html

[oriel]

On the not dipping into the cash the last accounts showed only 1.2 in cash in the bank so i would'nt be so sure about that but even if they have been using that cash it is THEIRS to use ..they bought the club.]

I think this was as at a certain time in that year when it was reported, euro expenses that season in question had to be paid out for travel etc. I believe (could be wrong) the more accurate figure is just over 2m left in the bank.

Its still costing P6 led group 1m a year to keep things going, and I`m hearing they have already signed off on significant new signings for next season in an attempt to do better in Europe, that being the only route to roi (return on investment).

The question is how long will they be prepared to be patient to get that return back.

[marinobohs]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/bohemians-say-yes-to-the-sale-of-dalymount-park-in-65m-deal-26363606.html

Sold DALYMOUNT PARK not the club it really isn't that difficult to understand.
We now sold DALYMOUNT PARK to DCC but the club is still members owned.
Maybe if I type slower you might understand ?

[Charlie Darwin]

Jesus lads, could you try not ruin every thread with your ****e?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Indulge me, what have you taken exception to? Why the lashing out rather than calmly addressing the points made. Getting in to a rage undermines your posts. I know plenty about LoI and SRFC - having a different perspective on what happens is not necessarily ridiculous or lacking in 'education. Points are are often made on opinion or interpretaton of facts, it doesnt mean points are automatically incorrect if you disagree. Why dont you engage in discussion instead of jumping straight in with accusations and childish namecalling along with agressive choice language. Be thankful you support a very lucky club that has not ceased to exist at times of adversity. Hard work needs a dollop of good luck too....

Listen I tried to indulge you and you said I was evasive (god knows where you got that from) and you asked questions about stuff that shamrock rovers as a club have actually publicly stated and has been gone over multiple times here (I'm actually fairly sure I've even told you them specifically before). You're points were not a misinterpretation of facts they were just plain wrong. As for knowing plenty about srfc your posts say the exact opposite, either that or you were being deliberately obtuse. Then you topped it all off by calling probably the most unlucky club in the country lucky because you decided to use very specific time lines to suit your agenda.

You did all this to deflect from the fact that the facts show that Dundalks business plan isn't working and is costing their owners money, for an investment firm that is not a good thing, as that quite rightly scares you so you try deflect by coming out with a load of rubbish and getting offended when it's pointed out how stupid you're being.

What exactly is so lucky about Rovers exactly?

Also a bit of swearing = aggressive now does it? Grow the **** up.

[Nesta99]

So where did you get the figures of €1mil being injected by the owners of Dundalk FC? asked for the umpteenth time with no answer! If you dont think aspects of uour posts were angry and agressive you need to have a good read back and seek some anger managment guidance it was a tad more than 'a bit of swearing'.. Rovers are still a lucky club, how long is the clug on the go and how long without a permanent home? You are hardly basing your assessment of SRFC on the specific time frame between the loss of Milltown for nothing and the gaining of Tallaght for nothing!? Luckier than Druncondra, Kilkenny, Monaghan, any club that has gone out of business. So unlucky that you top league and cup wins....I dont need to resort to insults or hissy fits, people can see how you behave when anything is said that doesnt sit in line with your own blinkered view on things.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

So where did you get the figures of €1mil being injected by the owners of Dundalk FC? asked for the umpteenth time with no answer! If you dont think aspects of uour posts were angry and agressive you need to have a good read back and seek some anger managment guidance it was a tad more than 'a bit of swearing'.. Rovers are still a lucky club, how long is the clug on the go and how long without a permanent home? You are hardly basing your assessment of SRFC on the specific time frame between the loss of Milltown for nothing and the gaining of Tallaght for nothing!? Luckier than Druncondra, Kilkenny, Monaghan, any club that has gone out of business. So unlucky that you top league and cup wins....I dont need to resort to insults or hissy fits, people can see how you behave when anything is said that doesnt sit in line with your own blinkered view on things.

Clearly your reading skills aren't great


It was in a piece in the independent.

You seem to be unable to grasp the difference between hard work and luck

The irony levels are through the roof here

[Kingswood Rover]

JEEZ some load of tosh there lads we all love our clubs but the childish we have more fans, youse have more money, your ground is ****e, youse got a free ground is extreme numptyism. Will we get off this rock before it goes tits up, just dont know.

[Dalymountrower]

JEEZ some load of tosh there lads we all love our clubs but the childish we have more fans, youse have more money, your ground is ****e, youse got a free ground is extreme numptyism. Will we get off this rock before it goes tits up, just dont know.
Agreed., even the last bit, which makes no sense.

[Kingswood Rover]

Agreed., even the last bit, which makes no sense.

Are we mature enough as a species to not blow ourselves up or fcuk up the planet to the extent that there is no footy before we find a new one

[Nesta99]

Clearly your reading skills aren't great



You seem to be unable to grasp the difference between hard work and luck

The irony levels are through the roof here

More pensonalised insults!

Where is the irony?

Have you really answered where you got your €1mil figure from, What was in the independant, how Rovers spent spent grant money paying players and made a mess of their Tallaght project, i bet it was hard work keeping that under wraps all right!! If you say something was quoted in a paper link the piece. Rovers are a lucky club, it was in The Time...

[Nesta99]

JEEZ some load of tosh there lads we all love our clubs but the childish we have more fans, youse have more money, your ground is ****e, youse got a free ground is extreme numptyism. Will we get off this rock before it goes tits up, just dont know.

You may well be right, but seeing how quickly and how often RH loses the plot, has a hissy fit, resorts to name calling is quite amusing!

[ToberonaTornado]

Some interesting stuff here.Knew most of the figures about splitting the gate etc in cup matches...but some interesting points from the Sligo treasurer.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/cash-as-much-of-an-incentive-as-cup-glory-for-sligo-rovers-1.4032854 (https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/cash-as-much-of-an-incentive-as-cup-glory-for-sligo-rovers-1.4032854?mode=amp)

[Kingswood Rover]

Yea hats off to the sligo supporters for keeping the whole show on the road years after year.

[redarmyfaction]

Gas that the FAI promised that anything over break even for the 2010 final would be given to the clubs and that they reneged on it then.

[EatYerGreens]

Gas that the FAI promised that anything over break even for the 2010 final would be given to the clubs and that they reneged on it then.

A shame that didn't make its way into the media at the time (or at least 'more' into the media if it did).

Signs even 9yrs ago that all was not well financially with Delaney's empire.

[Mr_Parker]

https://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/news/sport/547558/dundalk-fc-record-losses-of-over-1-2-million-for-2019.html

[pineapple stu]

Key part for me there is


Nonetheless, the club still had over €1.3 million to its name

If they burn through another €1.2m this year, the Euro cash will be effectively gone. What happens then?

[redobit]

To try and put a bit of perspective on Dundalks losses ... What Dundalk lost in 2019 is the cost of running Sligo Rovers completely from top to bottom for that season.

When you think of the money they took in plus the state of Oriel it really is madness.

[Nesta99]

To try and put a bit of perspective on Dundalks losses ... What Dundalk lost in 2019 is the cost of running Sligo Rovers completely from top to bottom for that season.

When you think of the money they took in plus the state of Oriel it really is madness.

It is worrying indeed. There is some small solace in that the figures were released rather than hideen. It also includes facilitiy improvement, not that supporters will see that directly. Recent interviews with Bob Hulsizer also give some little reassurance. The questions on sustainability and lack of ground improvements will roll on with such monies spent. Let European football commence sooner that later....

[EalingGreen]

I'm no Accountant, so am in no position to analyse these figures to be good or bad.

But the club will have had a good idea of how the figures were shaping up by the end of last year.

Which was also when CEO Mark Devlin, only appointed in April 2019, departed Oriel Park:
https://www.todayfm.com/sport/dundalk-chief-executive-mark-devlin-steps-7-months-921757

He says it was for "family reasons", which may be entirely correct, but to relocate to another country then move back after just 7 months is fairly drastic.

At a minimum, it might have been an easier decision to make if he could also see that his budgets were liable to be curtailed in 2020?

Which, of course, was before taking Covid-19 into account.

[pineapple stu]

It also includes facilitiy improvement, not that supporters will see that directly.
That was a bit of a strange one - it sounds like something which would normally be capitalised, and so would actually not be included on the €1.2m (well, it might be depreciated over 10 years, in which case 10% of the cost would have gone in)

[Mr_Parker]

It is worrying indeed. There is some small solace in that the figures were released rather than hideen. It also includes facilitiy improvement, not that supporters will see that directly. Recent interviews with Bob Hulsizer also give some little reassurance. The questions on sustainability and lack of ground improvements will roll on with such monies spent. Let European football commence sooner that later....

All clubs who apply for a UEFA Licence must publish their accounts on their website as part of achieving the licence.

[The Lilywhites]

From memory there was far more detail in the 2018 accounts published. Looks like the bare minimum is shown in the 2019 accounts.