Shels Stad move still on?!

[Student Mullet]

I'm no planning expert but from what I understand, Ringo is wrong. Dublin is short of housing at the moment and the city council will happily buy Shels out to get the land now instead of in 60 years time.

[higgins]

There are blocks of apartments being built all along Richmond Road at the moment so that wont be any problem. I cant see anyone objecting to more. Its only an issue of turning the sproting lease into a sale for residential use.

As for adding to concerns over flooding in the area Id think its a better deal for people already living there. Shels dont have the money to construct any type of anti flooding barriers!! If they get the go ahead for apartments then Im sure they will look at the flooding issues and construct something before building. It will surely be safer if Shels were to move. They have already worked on areas of the Tolka since the last flooding too.

[A face]

Im not pulling your leg about the €100 million anti flooding measures either;)

There was something on NationWide recently about it, cant remember specifics about it though.

[thejollyrodger]

It should bump up the land value near tolka no doubt :)

What is the exact low down on the new stadium anyway, there is absolutely no offical news. Is there any kind of offical time line ?

[Ringo]

I'm no planning expert but from what I understand, Ringo is wrong. Dublin is short of housing at the moment and the city council will happily buy Shels out to get the land now instead of in 60 years time.

Dublin is short of housing , because the developers that have the land are hoarding it & keeping the price of houses high.I'll agree, you are no expert in planning if you think its that simple. shels are just the latest lessee in Tolka, they havn't been there since it was built. Again the main problem is Shels being a private company rather than a Club. The city council have more than enough land to build houses if they wanted. Look at Ballymun. If Shels were a sports club or youth club( ie Home Farm) it would be easier. As with any state agency or publiv body, it must account for every penny it spends.If it doesn't have enough money to exercise its CPO on the Carlton Cinema on O'Connell Street, its unlikly to be able to find money for something like Tolka.

[skitz3]

Look ringo,with or without your permission the move is still on the cards.our club chairman has already told you as much as he as well as we the fans know,if you can't take his word let the rest of know and we can stop wasting our time arguing with you because it's then obvious that your not going to accept any else's opinion.

[A face]

Look ringo,with or without your permission the move is still on the cards.our club chairman has already told you as much as he as well as we the fans know,if you can't take his word let the rest of know and we can stop wasting our time arguing with you because it's then obvious that your not going to accept any else's opinion.

Skitz3 ... in fairness, there is no harm in teasing out what is actually happening. Fair enough your chairman has informed you as such but he could be wrong too. There is nothing wrong in discussing it and trying to figure out the pitfalls ..... its not like if they were any, that you could hide from them .... they'd be all too real when you actually do go to move.

The post initially was a concern if the move was actually a wise one, if it were even worth doing at all. Take it easy man !!

[skitz3]

Skitz3 ... in fairness, there is no harm in teasing out what is actually happening. Fair enough your chairman has informed you as such but he could be wrong too. There is nothing wrong in discussing it and trying to figure out the pitfalls ..... its not like if they were any, that you could hide from them .... they'd be all too real when you actually do go to move.

The post initially was a concern if the move was actually a wise one, if it were even worth doing at all. Take it easy man !!

I did get a bit worked up and for that i apologise A Face. it just seemed he was willing it to fail before it even got off the ground but he was not listening to anything anyone else had to say on the matter including Shels chairman who should have more knowledge on the subject than any of us.

btw in regards to it being a wise move i personally don't think it is but the club seem set on it and theirs little i can do about it.

[A face]

btw in regards to it being a wise move i personally don't think it is but the club seem set on it and theirs little i can do about it.


I am with you on that one .... to be totally honest with ya, the only reason you need to move from that ground is if you are turning people away every week.

There is a good bar there and room for another i'd imagine. There is more than enough capacity there and there seems like there is more room to build stands all the way around. It is in a good location (by that i mean it is central) and fairly easy to get to.

It seems like madness to move ground on the strength of European crowds, that is not good enough.

There doesn't seem to be alot of effort being put into attracting schools and students and there doesn't seem to be enough effort in advertising to locals (effective advertising, if current methods are not working, try others)

I can see the plus sides for moving ..... but is there any research done (serious research, not guess work) on the area that you are moving to as regards attracting crowds.

Anyway .... wait and see i suppose.

[Ringo]

Look ringo,with or without your permission the move is still on the cards.our club chairman has already told you as much as he as well as we the fans know,if you can't take his word let the rest of know and we can stop wasting our time arguing with you because it's then obvious that your not going to accept any else's opinion.

What Shels do is their business, i was just pointing out the problems with the plan as i saw it. If no Eircom League club is making a profit how can any club buy land & build a new stadium. Tolka is old & a new Stadium would be cheaper to run. But as A Face points out your not filling Tolka at the moment, maybe it would be wiser to Try & make some money where you are & move in a few years when the following has built back up.

[Bald Student]

Ringo,
Like Mullet Student, I'm not a planning expert either but I don't see any problem with the sale of this land. Speaking in rough numbers the site is worth about 40 million about half of which is due to Shels if it is sold. The corpo doesn't need to raise finance to buy out Shels as the sale of the site will more than cover that.
The corpo will then have achieved two aims. It will see housing being built in the area and it will have about 20 million euro to invest in social housing. Well done corpo, well done Shels. Everyone, even the rate payers, is happy.

P.S. Is there not housing being built in Ballymun? I saw photos in the papers recently of machinery at work there.

[higgins]

The reason for the move is to have all shels teams playing out of the 1 area. This will give shels a saving of over 150,000 a year in various rents from underage teams to training for full squad.

The sale of Tolka is funding the move to the new stadium so this talk of wait and save for a few years is not possible. If anything the longer we wait in Tolka the more money we lose. Its a case of grabbing the bull by the horns and taking a chance on something while we can.

Land values in the area are crazy and it seems right to take advantage of these at the moment. Also the north county Dublin/Fingal area is not going to get Cheaper either so its probably best to build there and then let the area build up around us.

You say there is room for building in Tolka? No there isnt. It will never grow past anything in the region of 15,000 seats and that will take an awful lot of work. Thinking in the long term Tolka is not the spot we should be in so the sooner we move the better as putting money into it is like throwing it away.

The move from Tolka is a good one.

Only trouble with it is the location of the site could possibly be a little better. Shels have not giving us any idea of how they will provide access to the site and I dont thin they have any idea of transport links in the area.

The move is needed the location is the worry.

[SÓC]

Update your sig file there Higgins will ya?

[higgins]

On May 21st I'll update it :D

You really want to go take Setanta Cup games?

[Student Mullet]

I'll agree, you are no expert in planning if you think its that simple.The implication here Ringo is that you are an expert in the area. Is that the case?

[Ringo]

The implication here Ringo is that you are an expert in the area. Is that the case?

I never claimed to an expert. I am however involved in Buying & selling property. The Tolka issue is a strange one. If you think of you own a building , would you give half. the proceeds from the sale to your tenant?. If shels were entitled to 20 million from Tolka one of the big builders would have bought shels by now. Look at the rovers situation. A number of People want to buy into Rovers, not for the club but for the land. If you have a lease, it has a value , it is worth what someone will pay you for it. It could be worth millions or nothing. Normally in a lease you agree to pay "x rent" & keep the leased property in good condition ( in tolkas case its expensive). Did shels buy the lease from another club or get it from DCC? One wonders if its worth so much , why they don't go to the open market & sell it.

[Ringo]

Ringo,
Like Mullet Student, I'm not a planning expert either but I don't see any problem with the sale of this land. Speaking in rough numbers the site is worth about 40 million about half of which is due to Shels if it is sold. The corpo doesn't need to raise finance to buy out Shels as the sale of the site will more than cover that.
The corpo will then have achieved two aims. It will see housing being built in the area and it will have about 20 million euro to invest in social housing. Well done corpo, well done Shels. Everyone, even the rate payers, is happy.

P.S. Is there not housing being built in Ballymun? I saw photos in the papers recently of machinery at work there.

I don't understand why How Shels could be entitled to half the proceeds. Why would rate payers be happy?Shels is a private company, why would anyone want a private company to make a load of money at the expence of the rate payers. The point about Ballymun was that there is plenty of land & DCC are building house's there at the moment.

[Slash/ED]

Yeah sorry your right Ringo, Shels are giving away Tolka for free and building the new 27m stadium out of pocket change lying around Ollies house.

[Ringo]

Yeah sorry your right Ringo, Shels are giving away Tolka for free and building the new 27m stadium out of pocket change lying around Ollies house.

if you can get anyone including DCC to give you anywhere near the amount of money being talked about here, i'll become a Shels fan myself :eek: . I'll then name my next Child Ollie. If he can pull of a deal like that he'll be one of the best businessmen i've i ever met. I wouldn't expect you to give up Tolka for free. You will make money, but the sums being talked about are crazy. Can someone from Shels give us some idea where these figures are coming from. Can you show a similar deal, thats happened elsewhere , that makes to money talked about stand up.

[Schumi]

If you think of you own a building , would you give half. the proceeds from the sale to your tenant?
If the alternative is waiting 70 years (or however long the lease is for) for the money, then I probably would!

[Ringo]

Had a talk with someone yesterday about this whole debate. The real thing being looked at is The city Council Selling Tolka, building & a new stadium with the money. Shels would then get a new lease on the new stadium. Dublin City council would still own the stadium & shels would still be tenants. Its unlikely thta DCC would buiid the new stadium outside their boundries. This sound very straight forward to me & would make sence.

[monkey magic]

correct me if im wrong, but would a move to a highly populated area like, say for instance, blanchardstown not make a helluva lot more sense than relocating to "the country" :confused:

[CuanaD]

I never claimed to an expert. I am however involved in Buying & selling property. The Tolka issue is a strange one. If you think of you own a building , would you give half. the proceeds from the sale to your tenant?. If shels were entitled to 20 million from Tolka one of the big builders would have bought shels by now. Look at the rovers situation. A number of People want to buy into Rovers, not for the club but for the land. If you have a lease, it has a value , it is worth what someone will pay you for it. It could be worth millions or nothing. Normally in a lease you agree to pay "x rent" & keep the leased property in good condition ( in tolkas case its expensive). Did shels buy the lease from another club or get it from DCC? One wonders if its worth so much , why they don't go to the open market & sell it.


The point is DCC's need for development/housing land. If they re-zone Tolka, the land value becomes (x), but only if they can sell it to developers. Therefore they have to buy out Shels lease to be able to sell on - the value of the Shels lease is then related to the sale value. If it were to be sold for housing 30-40million would be reasonable IMO. half of the sale value to buy out the lease would also seem reasonable.
However the citymanager's reply seems to be looking more towards Z10 - to develop more indusrtial units along that side of richmond road - this would be worth less in sale values. I think this is a bargening tool being used by DCC to allow them to offer less to Shels (probably in the reagion of 10 milion). However, with the curent developments along that side of richmond being large scale appartments, I would feel that an appartment development will be most likely. (DCC could always rezone as Z10, then pay Shels half, then rezone again for housing - probably netting DCC an extra 10million! - this seems the most likely outcome to me)

(BTW, yes I would have some development knowledge & some dealings with DCC - but that dosent mean I know what I'm talking about :D )


:ball:

[CuanaD]

correct me if im wrong, but would a move to a highly populated area like, say for instance, blanchardstown not make a helluva lot more sense than relocating to "the country" :confused:

Swords is the fastest growing town in Ireland at the mo'. Lissenhall would be easily accesable from Swords, Malahide & Donabate - thats 60,000 people in a 3 mile catchment area. Plus, the site is easily accesable off the new M1 interchange - meaning easily accesable from all areas of the city by car.

Public transport is bad in the area - but the physical infrastructure (roads) is there already.

[Slash/ED]

Had a talk with someone yesterday about this whole debate. The real thing being looked at is The city Council Selling Tolka, building & a new stadium with the money. Shels would then get a new lease on the new stadium. Dublin City council would still own the stadium & shels would still be tenants. Its unlikely thta DCC would buiid the new stadium outside their boundries. This sound very straight forward to me & would make sence.

So what are you saying, that they're not moving to Lissenhall at all and there's a new site being looked at atm or have I completley misunderstood you?

[thejollyrodger]

plus Lissenhall isnt too far from Dublin airport. It will mean easier access for teams flying in to play Shels.

[Ringo]

So what are you saying, that they're not moving to Lissenhall at all and there's a new site being looked at atm or have I completley misunderstood you?

You'd probably know more about it, tham me. it was just an observation.I was suggesting than DCC would be more likly to do something in their are rather than in Fingals.

[Ringo]

plus Lissenhall isnt too far from Dublin airport. It will mean easier access for teams flying in to play Shels.


:D Yeah that a real reason to build out there.

[conboy]

Sure theres a grand shell of a stadium in Tallaght and Olly has business interests all over the city ............ :p :D

[BohDiddley]

plus Lissenhall isnt too far from Dublin airport. It will mean easier access for teams flying in to play Shels.
That's a joke, isn't it?

[Risteard]

Ya, it'll be easier for your competitiors when ye join the Premiership. ;)

Tolka is great. I don't see any need for Sh€ls to move unless the council kick them out.

[Ringo]

Shels' fans back proposed move

SHELBOURNE supporters have dropped their opposition to the club's proposed relocation to Donabate.

A group of supporters handed out leaflets before last Friday's match against Finn Harps at Tolka Park urging the Shelbourne faithful to oppose the move. However, after a meeting on Tuesday night with club officials, the supporters are now backing the proposal.

Yesterday was the final day for amendments to be submitted to Fingal County Council before they make a decision on May 25 on whether to grant planning permission for a 6,800-capacity stadium.


http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=94&si=1393643&issue_id=12453

[Drumcondra Red]

Shels fans DO NOT back this move, there has been a massive U-turn by one group opposing the move, but there is still a very active campaign against this idiotic move, until we're given some facts, figures and information!

[drummerboy]

Hmmm, very noble Drumcondra Red but I think the powers that be have decided to cash in. Can't really see why they need to move. It they can't make ends meet in Tolka they certainly won't do it out in the wilds of North Co Dublin. Most of the Shels support are young people, who don't have their own transport. Its a massive gamble. They have the best stadium in the league, centrally located. It smacks of underhanded dealings, and brown envelopes if you ask me. I expect to see Shels sharing Morton Stadium with Rovers in a couple of years time.

[Supersaint3]

Hmmm, very noble Drumcondra Red but I think the powers that be have decided to cash in. Can't really see why they need to move. It they can't make ends meet in Tolka they certainly won't do it out in the wilds of North Co Dublin. Most of the Shels support are young people, who don't have their own transport. Its a massive gamble. They have the best stadium in the league, centrally located. It smacks of underhanded dealings, and brown envelopes if you ask me. I expect to see Shels sharing Morton Stadium with Rovers in a couple of years time.

I'm cacking laughter at that, that would be some sight! :D ;)

[trevy]

As an outsider,I can't see the sense in moving to North Co Dublin when Shels have a perfectly adequate stadium in a well populated area not far from Dublin city centre.Why make it harder for fans to get to games when support is pretty low as it is as all Eircom League clubs,not just Shels?

[holidaysong]

...grant planning permission for a 6,800-capacity stadium.

Why move to a reduced capacity stadium?!? Just shows how optimistic they are for their future attendences.. :rolleyes:

[Buller]

Why move to a reduced capacity stadium?!? Just shows how optimistic they are for their future attendences.. :rolleyes:
Why?!
Its going to be easily EXPANDABLE to 15,000 all-seater
It will include training facilities/astro pitches so they will save money from moving everything on to one site and gain money from renting it to other sports....
THATS WHY!!

[TonyD]

plus Lissenhall isnt too far from Dublin airport. It will mean easier access for teams flying in to play Shels.

What, like Cork and Derry perhaps ? :D

[A face]

What, like Cork and Derry perhaps ? :D

Cork City have flown to a few games this season and a good number last season. It does make sense ... mentioning the airport, but do Derry fly to games ?? It is something that a club like Derry should be looking at anyway, give the price of travel by all the other means now anyway.

[Dazzy]

Nothing beats the craic on a bus journey to Cork :p

[higgins]

Drumcondra is only a 20 min drive from the Airport ........

you can hardly justify the move because it knocks 10 mins off the travel time for a few teams :confused:

Shels are not moving to make travel easier for Cork derry or whoever ..