George Best "Merge both the national teams"

[thejollyrodger]

there is still a bit of agro about rugby. Namely that the Irish national anthem is played at all. The other problem is the flag be flown.

[dynamo kerry]

don't see any big loss in terms of uefa influence. a few less suits might get to go on holiday but other than that...


as for the UK factor. ask a scottish person where they're from. most of them and the welsh have a separte national identity from the english.

NI and ireland merging teams is a completely different kettle of fish to scotland wales and england merging.

I'm not pushed myself but I'd love to see a unified league and the end result of that would probably be a unified team. but it's all at least 10 years away anyway at which point the general consensus will have changed anyway

[dr_peepee]

I think the remark was made acknowledging that aside from the obvious politics and seciurity involved it would be nice to see.

I do think though that allot of people would change their tune if NI had a Damian Duff at their disposal, but they obviously don't so it's easy to dismiss the idea and cite history/politics etc as the reason.

From a purely footballing perspective I have to amit it's something I think about from time to time. Hypathetically I try to assess who'd be an asset to our current set up, as has been done already on this thread.

There's too much sh1te involved though, so it won't happen any time soon...

[sean]

now since we are on the subject anyone know what will happen if london gets the olympics? it seems that the host nation automatically qualify for the olympics so it seem like great britian will have to put in a football team. this could lead to a big problem, since most of the players will be english anyway. what will happen if they refuse to put in a footy team will this hamper there chances of getting the olympics?

[crc]

How do you define an Irish person? Are people from the North Irish?
Yes. I've heard Jeffrey Donaldson say as much. [sorry if this has stepped over the politics line]
A united team would be the way to go. We shouldn't look at it from the point of view of "what players would we gain?" - This is narrow minded and misses the point.

The real reason this would make sense is because almost every single other sport one can think of is organised on an all-Ireland basis.

Although the Germanies and the Koreas did't merge their teams (while they maintained separate juristictions), it wouldn't have been unnatural. Essentially what the two Irelands, two Germanies and two Koreas have in common is that they are countries divided by ideology, but the same country nonetheless. Its not like we're trying to Merge with Wales, or Bulgaria with Romania, just to gain some advantage!

On where they might play, I woundn't have a problem with sharing the matches around the cities - two games in Dublin for every one in Belfast (maybe even some games in Cork if we ever get a suitable stadium! :p )

[crc]

As for an All-Ireland football team, there is no way I will share my national team with those who abused Paul McGrath and Packie Bonner in Windsor Park in 1993.What about sharing your team with the scumbags who jeered the Rangers players at Lansdowne? or the Bohs fans who chanted abuse at Lee Feeney only last week?? Scumbags are scumbags and they appear everywhere. Don't forget that these are not the only people in Northern Ireland, they are not representative of general opinion. The ones that came to Windsor in '93 were hooligans intent on trouble, NOT football fans.


I don't see the point in a cross-state team. Why would two different nations cross a state boundary to form a national team? You're confusing the concepts of nation and state. There are two different states on this island, but neither one has a monopoly on the concept Ireland, even though Free-staters seem to think they do!


It would be nothing more than a marriage of convenience.If France and Germany wanted to join together THAT would be a marriage of convenience! :rolleyes:


It's sad to see how little respect people have for our national history too true :(

[Donal81]

From a football perspective, we've nothing to gain currently but if you go back a couple of years, Northern Ireland were a respected team and teams genuinely feared going to Windsor Park because they knew the team was going to be tough. Who's to say they won't start producing again?

Before people take a moral high ground on their supporters, consider the booing Rangers players get in Lansdowne...Those in Windsor Park booing that night were scum but there is plenty of scum in Lansdowne too.

Aside from football, there are plenty of gung-ho Young Irelanders on this site who seem to be completely against this as it will destroy our identity and we'll lose our anthem and our flag.

Surely, in the face of the entire Anglo-Irish history, a few things stand out. Firstly, if a few colours on a flag and a few verses of song are the only things we have to give up to get a peaceful united Ireland, it can't be that bad?

Secondly, surely the identity that nationalists aspire to is one of a united Ireland of different peoples and not a Catholic one of tricolours and Soldier's Songs calling people to arms to knife the Brits?

Sport and politics will always be linked and if they have managed to maintain a united Ireland rugby team, I don't see why any nationalist on this site would be against a united Ireland football team. Just my two cents...

[stojkovic]

The (English) FA would never let this happen as they would lose a valuable vote at FIFA/UEFA Congress.
They can currently count on 5 votes - England, Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland and of course Rep.of Ireland. We would always vote with them as it affects our players in their league.

[Littlest Hobo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/4374631.stm

George Best wants football authorities north and south of the Ireland border to create a unified national team.
The former Northern Ireland star, 58, believes a united Irish side could be a force if they pooled their resources.

He told BBC Radio Five Live: "At any given time, both the Republic and Northern Ireland have had some great world-class players.

"I just believe in trying something. If it doesn't work, at least you've tried. I just hope it happens in my lifetime."

The move would be politically controversial and may face Fifa opposition, given that both nations have their own unique identities.

It would inevitably also be a thorny issue for both the Northern Ireland FA and the Football Association of Ireland, which might be required to merge in order for the unified team to become a reality.


... No chance!!

& whatever about past players, there's not many of their first 11 that would even make the irish squad...

Northern Ireland squad - goalkeepers: R Carroll (Manchester United), Maik Taylor (Birmingham City).

Defenders: M Williams (Rushden and Diamonds), S Craigan (Motherwell), C Murdock (Crewe), A Hughes (Newcastle), M Clyde (Wolves), C Baird (Southampton), T Capaldi (Plymouth), G McCartney (Sunderland).

Midfielders: D Johnson (Birmingham City), J Whitley (Sunderland), T Doherty (Bristol City), C Brunt (Sheffield Wednesday), S Davis (Aston Villa), K Gillespie (Leicester), P Mulryne (Norwich).

Forwards: S Jones (Crewe), S Elliott (Hull), A Smith (Preston), A Kirk (Northampton Town), D Healy (Leeds), W Feeney (Stockport).

-- There's maybe 3 you'd consider out of that bunch...

Best is a fcuking idiot. Can't think why anyone should take him seriously.
He's talkin the gargle again :rolleyes:
The gob****e believes 'a united side could be a force if they pooled their resources'. How the hell did he come up with that one. :confused:
Can't quite see brunt partnering keane in the middle or jones doin us any favours up front.

[Eire06]

You get all sorts of people at every match and some find it accecptable to Boo and jeer other players because of their religion, colour and team they play for... Like we saw coming from our fans towards Rangers players and against Ronaldo This is disgraceful and I personally would not jeer a player unless it was called for ( by him playing in and unsporting manner, diving, bad tackles ect)...



Aside from football, there are plenty of gung-ho Young Irelanders on this site who seem to be completely against this as it will destroy our identity and we'll lose our anthem and our flag.

Surely, in the face of the entire Anglo-Irish history, a few things stand out. Firstly, if a few colours on a flag and a few verses of song are the only things we have to give up to get a peaceful united Ireland, it can't be that bad?
...
I am completely against a united Ireland team because firstly it would be of no advantage to us at the moment, but if they did have top class players to offer I would still be against it... We would loose our Identity as a nation..

you say loosing a few colours on a flag and a few verses of a song wouldn't be that bad.. If they take that away from us what do we have left :mad: .. What did the people of Ireland fight and die for, for hundreds of years.. just so we can give away our identity so easily..... :mad:
I find you comments ignorant and highly offensive.. just hope your in the minority in this country otherwise were fu*ked :mad:

[Stuttgart88]

My opposition to a 32 county football team has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of Norn Iron at the moment.

One of the best things we have going for us is the cameraderie & unity we have. This is why our away trips are so special. The national team comes first for us and there is no political statement on show - the only statement is that we're Irish & love our football team. Other countries have factions within their support based on club loyalties or regional differences. I don't want to be half the way around the world and being suspicious of my peers or having to hold back and behave all PC in the company of other Ireland fans. And I'm not even a dark green nationalist.

Uniting the two teams would only introduce a fractious influence to our support and would take away the essence of what we're about as Ireland football fans. The Saipan "civil war" was bad enough without having potential differences of opinion on sovereignty thrown into the mix.

[eirebhoy]

Best is a fcuking idiot. Can't think why anyone should take him seriously.
He's talkin the gargle again :rolleyes:
The gob****e believes 'a united side could be a force if they pooled their resources'. How the hell did he come up with that one. :confused:
Can't quite see brunt partnering keane in the middle or jones doin us any favours up front.
Has the world time clock suddenly stopped? Will Brunt and Keane still be playing in 20 years or so? :eek:

[pineapple stu]

One of the best things we have going for us is the cameraderie & unity we have. This is why our away trips are so special. The national team comes first for us and there is no political statement on show - the only statement is that we're Irish & love our football team. Other countries have factions within their support based on club loyalties or regional differences. I don't want to be half the way around the world and being suspicious of my peers or having to hold back and behave all PC in the company of other Ireland fans. And I'm not even a dark green nationalist.
Don't agree. Team-wise, we had no problems when Alan Kernaghan - a former NI youth international - was playing for us (well, morale- and spirit-wise anyway! :) )

Fan-wise, the Derry lads currently support Ireland - you'll always see them in the North Terrace in Lansdowne for the competitive games, and they are one of the best for helping with the atmosphere. Many Catholics (correct me if I'm wrong here) in the North support Ireland. It's been happening all the time. You're not going to suddenly get a huge amount of Union Jack wearing Ian Paisley loving trouble-causing people (not suggesting the three are necessarily interlinked, incidentally) heading on away trips.

[pineapple stu]

Though DG as a token rep.of 'OWB' is indeed a fashion disaster......he could Definitely go back to his Caledonian roots! :p
:confused:

Can't be that much effort to type full words, surely?!

[Donal81]

I am completely against a united Ireland team because firstly it would be of no advantage to us at the moment, but if they did have top class players to offer I would still be against it... We would loose our Identity as a nation..

you say loosing a few colours on a flag and a few verses of a song wouldn't be that bad.. If they take that away from us what do we have left :mad: .. What did the people of Ireland fight and die for, for hundreds of years.. just so we can give away our identity so easily..... :mad:

I find you comments ignorant and highly offensive.. just hope your in the minority in this country otherwise were fu*ked :mad:

Mate, if you rely on a flag and a song for an identity, that's your problem, not mine. If Ireland or Irishness or whatever that means relies solely on symbols for an identity, it's fairly empty, to be honest.

Symbols are only symbols, that's all...If you can grasp that, let me know.

If you want to bring the martyr thing into it, they certainly didn't fight and die for a flag and a song, they fought for the right to live without interference. The song was only written in 1907, it was only adopted in 1924, the flag isn't too much older and does the flag not preach reconciliation anyway?

[plasticpat]

Let's amalgamate the two teams.
Then put all the Dublin and Beldast politicians against the wall
Then merge the 2 parts of the country into a Peoples Socialist Republic.
I don't mind where the matches are played

[dynamo kerry]

indeed, an irish flag of only green is what we should be aspiring to in my book. a la pearse and the boys.

in any case. the point is we'd be selecting players off a p opulation nearing 6 million - in 20 years that would give us a much better pool of players.

[Eire06]

Mate, if you rely on a flag and a song for an identity, that's your problem, not mine. If Ireland or Irishness or whatever that means relies solely on symbols for an identity, it's fairly empty, to be honest.

Symbols are only symbols, that's all...If you can grasp that, let me know.


They are symbols which are part of our history and part of who we are today.. And I don't see it as a problem :confused: and no my 'Irishness' does not soely rely on the flag and national anthem, but they are part of it...

I can see were not going to agree on this so to stop this from getting all political and stuff we'll agree to disagree..


well said Stuttgart88 :D

[thejollyrodger]

Surely, in the face of the entire Anglo-Irish history, a few things stand out. Firstly, if a few colours on a flag and a few verses of song are the only things we have to give up to get a peaceful united Ireland, it can't be that bad?

Bóllocks ! A few colours on a flag a few notes in song dont count for much? A national team is the few things we have and I for one dont want to throw it away for nothing. Ripping down a successful team is not going to help bring peace and ur talking through ur rear end if you think it will. Soccer has nothing to do with the peace process.

There should be a distinction between merging the two teams and the north joining the south.

If the north wants to start playing in the existing republic team then thats fair enough. I would be happy to see some of them in the squad (if they are good enough). Maybe we can play a few extra friendlies in Belfast.

However I totally against breaking up a sucessfull Irish team, flag, anthem, manager, for a bunch of northerns, who deep down dont really want to play. Even the FAI are better than the IFA and thats really saying something !

[Littlest Hobo]

Has the world time clock suddenly stopped? Will Brunt and Keane still be playing in 20 years or so? :eek:

As the old biddy says on the tv ad for saving energy......................its all a load of twaddle :D

[Poor Student]

You're confusing the concepts of nation and state. There are two different states on this island, but neither one has a monopoly on the concept Ireland, even though Free-staters seem to think they do!

If France and Germany wanted to join together THAT would be a marriage of convenience! :rolleyes:

too true :(

Excuse me? I know well the difference between nation and state. The two states are the Republic and the UK. This all Ireland national team would cross two states. The two nations are the Unionist and the Nationalist for want of better labels. So we would have an Irish team containing two nations cross over two states. Doesn't make any sense. Other than the fact we all occupy the same island what makes us so much different to joining up for convenience than Germany and France?

[Littlest Hobo]

jaysis lads, i thought we talking ball here.
Bloody politix should be banned in ere. :mad: Always the same crap about the ireland/uk historical thing hijacking the stage :(

[barglee]

wasnt there a player who played rugby for ireland who used to tear off the shamrock from the jersey before each game?


do we want sh*t like that in football........

[stojkovic]

indeed, an irish flag of only green is what we should be aspiring to in my book. a la pearse and the boys.

My history is not great but did "Pearse and the boys" not raise the Tricolour on the GPO in 1916 or am I mistaken.
This replaced the old green flag with gold harp.
The Tricolour as we know is green for ireland, orange for the boys up north with white reconciling them both in the middle. Am I mistaken ?

The little RA lads have tended to cloud the facts over years and forget exactly WHO fought for independence for this country - Protestants and English Catholics - FACT.

Men like Wolfe Tone, Roger Casement, Douglas Hyde, Erskine Childers and so on.

[lopez]

Poor old Besty. What have you done. I've been unable to see the reaction of the lads on ourweeminds but I bet along with Dougan, the old souse will not be having his face added to that mural on the footbridge near Saxe-Gotha-Coburg Park.

Give Besty a break - if not a new liver. He's living in the seventies when such an idea would have got some support. He's of the belief that a Brady or Giles or Heighway would have meant him going to Mexico, Germany, Argentina, possibly Spain and him never becoming the alky he did.

A few generalisations here. Like all NI fans are scum.

And let's not forget some grade A cojones like this...


wasnt there a player who played rugby for ireland who used to tear off the shamrock from the jersey before each game? do we want sh*t like that in football........

Oh, and for those that are concerned about the flag, the last time I looked at it a third of it was Orange.

[Donal81]

Jonathan Swift wrote a satire about two peoples going to war over which way was best to eat an egg. When people get so wound up about flags and anthems, it reminds me of that.

Lopez, you're spot on about the NI generalisation rubbish going on here.

[elroy]

The french gave us the tricolour, as to when this happened i dont know but i have a feeling it was around the 1798 rebellion

[Eire06]

The french gave us the tricolour, as to when this happened i dont know but i have a feeling it was around the 1798 rebellion

The national flag of Ireland is a tricolour of green, white and orange. The flag is twice as wide as it is high. The three colours are of equal size and the green goes next to the flagstaff.

The flag was first introduced by Thomas Francis Meagher in 1848 who based it on French tricolour.

The green represents the older Gaelic tradition while the orange represents the supporters of William of Orange. The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the 'Orange' and the 'Green'.

It was not until the Rising of 1916, when it was raised above the General Post Office in Dublin, that the tricolour came to be regarded as the national flag.

It is now enshrined in the Constitution of Ireland.

[elroy]

For example, assume these were the terms and conditions of a united ireland team, would you agree?

1 The team would be known just as Ireland
2 They would play in the same style jerseys as now, prominently green, with a new crest, which would contain a shamrock.
3 The majority of games would be played in Dublin, with approx 2 each year in Belfast
4 The national anthem would still be played at home AND away games
5 The Irish tricolour would still be flown along with a new united ireland/united fai/ifa flag
6 The headquarters of the new fai/ifa would be in Dublin
7 If it were to happen now, Brian Kerr would remain as manager, with Sanchez in an advisory role if desired
8 Finally if the two associations were combined, the eircom league and the Irish league would also have to be unified-this in theory could be a very good thing for the standard of football in the country.


Personally I could never see the IFA agreeing to the above terms, therefore I do not see why we should form a united Ireland team, if the above were satisfied I would be more than happy.

[Dan K]

If this unification was to take place (don't see it happening myself, not that I'm adverse to it) I'd imagine that those who presently follow the north will support England (if they don't already ;) ). I've always thought that nationalists in the Six Counties support the 26 regardless.

Mind you, it'll Be interesting to see if any 'special' chants are sang about this at Old Trafford on Saturday. All the English people that I know who are going are expecting a bit of a 'love in'.

[stojkovic]

The national flag of Ireland is a tricolour of green, white and orange. The flag is twice as wide as it is high. The three colours are of equal size and the green goes next to the flagstaff.

The flag was first introduced by Thomas Francis Meagher in 1848 who based it on French tricolour.

The green represents the older Gaelic tradition while the orange represents the supporters of William of Orange. The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the 'Orange' and the 'Green'.

It was not until the Rising of 1916, when it was raised above the General Post Office in Dublin, that the tricolour came to be regarded as the national flag.
It is now enshrined in the Constitution of Ireland.
Dynamo Kerry - did you read that.
So much for your 'pearse and the boys' with their plain green flag - IRA myth.
B@stardising Irish history for your own bedroom nationalism.
You know fcuk all.

[Eire06]

Dynamo Kerry - did you read that.
So much for your 'pearse and the boys' with their plain green flag - IRA myth.
B@stardising Irish history for your own bedroom nationalism.
You know fcuk all.

In fairness I do think there was a plain green flag, sometimes with a harp on it used as a unofficial national flag before this by Republicians...
Will look into it and get back to you..

[stojkovic]

In fairness I do think there was a plain green flag, sometimes with a harp on it used as a unofficial national flag before this by Republicians...
Will look into it and get back to you..
I know there was - The Irish Volunteers and Fenians used it.
But Dynamo Kerry's point was that it was used by pearse and the boys and it wasnt. Pearse raised the tricolour above the GPO in 1916 as I have said and you confirmed this.

[Eire06]

I know there was - The Irish Volunteers and Fenians used it.
But Dynamo Kerry's point was that it was used by pearse and the boys and it wasnt. Pearse raised the tricolour above the GPO in 1916 as I have said and you confirmed this.

oh right took you up wrong sorry :o

[Poor Student]

You can talk all you like about the orange on the tricolour but in many Unionist eyes it represents the flag of our republic which is by and large up until recently a monocultural and blatantly Catholic state and also an emblem of militant republicanism. Northern Unionists are a seperate identity of both Irish nationalists and mainland British. Many would not want to integrate into an Irish team no more than a UK one. As I said we are two nations in two different states, why would we form one national team? Where else does this happen?

[Donal81]

I know there was - The Irish Volunteers and Fenians used it.
But Dynamo Kerry's point was that it was used by pearse and the boys and it wasnt. Pearse raised the tricolour above the GPO in 1916 as I have said and you confirmed this.

On a point of order, it wasn't Pearse that actually raised it. Myth has it that it was Sean Lemass, the 15 year old.

Reading all this actually would make a good Jonathan Swift book...

[stojkovic]

Reading all this actually would make a good Jonathan Swift book...
You're dead right there Donal.
I stayed out of this arguement because I couldnt give a flying fcuk about the north.
I just came in to point out the usual IRA inaccuracies about flags and the like.

We're in Europe now, so onwards and upwards and leave the bigots to sort it out themselves, I say.

[crc]

There's a lot of mis-understanding about the people of the North.

1. Northern Unionists feel both British and Irish; they don't see any conflict between the two, whereas Catholic/Nationalists seem to think that they are mutually exclusive, which is untrue. The fact that they can feel some sort of affiliation to their British heritage doesn't, however, bar them from having an affection towards Irishness. It's similar to Irish America; Irish Americans feel proud of America, but equally they are proud of their heritage. Nobody questions their American patriotism, nor do they asks them to abandon their heritage, or tell them to go back to Ireland because their feeling Irish somehow negates their right to be American.
This was true before partition, and before the troubles, and still exists in even today (for example in the way Northern Prods feel happy to let their young men and women represent Ireland in many sports: Rugby, Hockey, Cricket, etc.). This feeling has somewhat been eroded by 30 years of IRA idiots trying to bomb them into submission, but it still exists.

2. For this weekend's game against England, let noone be under any illusion that it will be a "love-in". Northerners love beating England just as much as southerners (or the Scots, or the Welsh). But this doesn't mean that they are uncomfortable living under the same constitutional arrangement as the English (or the Scotish, or the Welsh). God knows people in Cork love beating teams from Dublin in any sport, but that doesn't mean we can't stand living in the same country as them! (the "People's Republic of Cork" notwithstanding)

3. There are many, many people in the North who have been fogotton about, who would instantly say yes to a single Irish international team. Not only have they been forgotton about in the context of who would support this single Irish team, but many apparently proud Irishmen on this board seem content to forget about those unfortunate Irishmen who have suffered the most and who never asked to be part of the UK - this selfish attitude is nothing to be proud of.

Any single Irish international team would be a merger, not one side taking over the other. This domineering trend is a major cause of Ireland's woes. Before southern independence, it was the Protestant elite who thought they owned the entire country. Since then, it has been the southern Catholic side who feel that THEY alone own the entire country (as noticed by many calling the Republic of Ireland international soccer team simply "Ireland"). Neither side is correct. Ireland will not be at peace until we all learn that we must share the country. Unionists must realise that they cannot deny the will of the majority of people, but likewise Nationalists cannot feel they have a veto of whether some people in Ireland also wish to feel and express their Britishness. I'm not even talking about creating a United Ireland 32-county state. Even if NI and ROI existed ad infinitum, everybody must respect the legitimate aspirations of others on this island. Contary to what some may think, there are ways that all can be accomodated peacefully. We must embrace the difference that exists in Ireland (even, or perhaps especially, in the south - which is clearly not a mono-ethnic, mono-cultural society).


As for elroys eight points I agree with them on the most part. I have reservations about points 4, 5 and 6.
4 - I would play an agreed unified anthem at all games (I like Ireland's Call, but I recognise that others don't, so something else). Also Amhran na bhFiann at home games in the south, and a northern anthem at home games in the north (not GSTQ, something that everybody can agree to, like Danny Boy).
5 - Similarly I would have an agreed all-Ireland flag at all home and away games, plus the tri-colour at home games in the south, and a NI flag at home games in the north (not the sectarian six-pointed star and crown one, one that can command the allegiance of all in NI).
6 - I don't mind having the HQ in Dublin but why not Dundalk, Newry, or my own favourite, Derry?

[pineapple stu]

5 - Similarly I would have an agreed all-Ireland flag at all home and away games, plus the tri-colour at home games in the south, and a NI flag at home games in the north (not the sectarian six-pointed star and crown one, one that can command the allegiance of all in NI).
Someone might enlighten me on this - I thought the current tricolour was always intended as a flag of a united Ireland (that it was designed in the 19th century when Ireland technically was united as has been stated here, that would seem to support my view). In this case, we don't need a separate flag for a united Ireland - we already have one. Similarly for the anthem. The unionists may think that both represent the Republicas Poor Student suggests, but they would be wrong and would have no legitimate grounds for offence should either be used. It obviously doesn't help if the likes of Sinn Féin/IRA impart meaning to the flag by wrapping their murderous campaigns in the tricolour every time they can, but ultimately we need opportunites to impart the meaning of a united island to the tricolour and the anthem. Like a united football team playing under the one flag...?

[lopez]

As for elroys eight points I agree with them on the most part. I have reservations about points 4, 5 and 6.
4 - I would play an agreed unified anthem at all games (I like Ireland's Call, but I recognise that others don't, so something else). Also Amhran na bhFiann at home games in the south, and a northern anthem at home games in the north (not GSTQ, something that everybody can agree to, like Danny Boy).
Why not the Sash? Ulster protestant heritage etc. Rousing (unlike Danny Boy) and can hardly be construed as 'sectarian' if song on ALL occasions (home and away) either before or after the Soldier's Song.

5 - Similarly I would have an agreed all-Ireland flag at all home and away games, plus the tri-colour at home games in the south, and a NI flag at home games in the north (not the sectarian six-pointed star and crown one, one that can command the allegiance of all in NI).
Again why not the flags of both teams? This is in reality what we are having. A team that bridges two states and two communities. The NI flag does not need to be changed. Anyone who is offended or considers it sectarian will have the Tricolour as their flag.

6 - I don't mind having the HQ in Dublin but why not Dundalk, Newry, or my own favourite, Derry?What's wrong with Belfast? If the new association was truly democratic then it will reflect the soccer community as a whole regardless of it's HQ's location. And property is cheaper in Belfast. We supply the stadium. You supply the HQ. Bit of give and take is not a bad thing

Someone might enlighten me on this - I thought the current tricolour was always intended as a flag of a united Ireland (that it was designed in the 19th century when Ireland technically was united as has been stated here, that would seem to support my view). In this case, we don't need a separate flag for a united Ireland - we already have one. Similarly for the anthem.While I'd agree with the flag, the Soldier's Song can in no way be an anthem of anyone that sees themselves as British lving in Ireland. Putting myself in the shoes of a unionist the song is as sectarian as The Sash is to nationalists.

Finally there is the other option for an all-Ireland team. The FAI reiterates that anyone entitled to an Irish passport (i.e. in this case anyone born in Ireland) will be considered for inclusion should they so wish. No 'targetting' Catholics while 'ignoring' Protestants from NI. If they want to play for us, they can. Contact the FAI here: webmaster@fai.ie . That way we'll keep the anthem, the flag, and noone tears any shamrocks :rolleyes: off their shirts.

[brine3]

Some people here are saying that NI don't have the quality players, but they're only looking at the now. Imagine if we had played together as one team in 1982. In 1982 both NI and the Republic had one of their strongest squads ever, and I think if the resources had been pooled that the team could have gone very far indeed (I'm talking lifting the trophy here). Next time both of our teams have as good players as in 1982 I hope we'll be playing together.

Other countries seem to think we're the same anyway, so we may as well. I was talking to some Spaniards in 2002 and they were going on how they were going to beat us "like 20 years ago in 1982."

As for Amraan na bhfian (or however you spell it) it's only a song, and a ****e one at that. I'm sure we can decide on a new song (not that rugger song anyway, jesus). Something non-nostalgic and rocking that all the other countries will be jealous of.

However, the IFA wouldn't touch Delaney's shower with a very long stick, and rightly so, I would say. So I can't see it happening.

[Poor Student]

Some people here are saying that NI don't have the quality players, but they're only looking at the now. Imagine if we had played together as one team in 1982. In 1982 both NI and the Republic had one of their strongest squads ever, and I think if the resources had been pooled that the team could have gone very far indeed (I'm talking lifting the trophy here). Next time both of our teams have as good players as in 1982 I hope we'll be playing together.

Yes and in 1998 Croatia reached third in the World Cup, imagine how well a combined Yugoslav team would have done able to combine this team with players such as Mihajlovic, Savecevic, Mijatovic, Zahovic etc. So what? It's no reason to mash nations together into a football team.


Other countries seem to think we're the same anyway, so we may as well. I was talking to some Spaniards in 2002 and they were going on how they were going to beat us "like 20 years ago in 1982."

Well the IFA insisting the Northern Irish team be called Ireland until the 1960's didn't help. Some people still call Serbia Yugoslavia or the Czech Rep. Czechoslovakia. Geo-political ignorance of others is no reason to form a team.


Northern Unionists feel both British and Irish; they don't see any conflict between the two, whereas Catholic/Nationalists seem to think that they are mutually exclusive, which is untrue. The fact that they can feel some sort of affiliation to their British heritage doesn't, however, bar them from having an affection towards Irishness.

It depends to be honest. Some Unionists define themselves as purely British, some as simply Ulster, others as Northern Irish and a small few as simply Irish.


This was true before partition, and before the troubles, and still exists in even today (for example in the way Northern Prods feel happy to let their young men and women represent Ireland in many sports: Rugby, Hockey, Cricket, etc.).

The reason why partition never took place in these sports because they were for the main part played by Protestants North and South of the border. Just as there is no division in the GAA as it is practically an exclusive Catholic sport on both sides. But what happens with the beautiful game played by both identites? An almost immediate partition. Now I know rugby is played by both identites on the island more now but can you see anyone bothering to go partitioning the teams at this stage? Doesn't mean we should unify the teams just because it works in rugby.


2. For this weekend's game against England, let noone be under any illusion that it will be a "love-in". Northerners love beating England just as much as southerners (or the Scots, or the Welsh). But this doesn't mean that they are uncomfortable living under the same constitutional arrangement as the English (or the Scotish, or the Welsh). God knows people in Cork love beating teams from Dublin in any sport, but that doesn't mean we can't stand living in the same country as them! (the "People's Republic of Cork" notwithstanding)

That said there was once a survey done amongst Protestant and Catholic football supporters in the North. They were asked in a competition involving the home nations and the Republic how would they like the teams to finish. Most Protestants gave NI first. They were then split about 50/50 on wanting Eng or Sco second. A majority wanted the ROI to finish last. Seems to indicate a preference for England over the ROI at least and not a major aversion to England.


3. There are many, many people in the North who have been fogotton about, who would instantly say yes to a single Irish international team. Not only have they been forgotton about in the context of who would support this single Irish team, but many apparently proud Irishmen on this board seem content to forget about those unfortunate Irishmen who have suffered the most and who never asked to be part of the UK - this selfish attitude is nothing to be proud of.

Indeed but the solution is not an all-Ireland team just so all Nationalists can fall under the one national team.


Any single Irish international team would be a merger, not one side taking over the other. This domineering trend is a major cause of Ireland's woes. Before southern independence, it was the Protestant elite who thought they owned the entire country. Since then, it has been the southern Catholic side who feel that THEY alone own the entire country (as noticed by many calling the Republic of Ireland international soccer team simply "Ireland"). Neither side is correct. Ireland will not be at peace until we all learn that we must share the country. Unionists must realise that they cannot deny the will of the majority of people, but likewise Nationalists cannot feel they have a veto of whether some people in Ireland also wish to feel and express their Britishness. I'm not even talking about creating a United Ireland 32-county state.

Very well said. Which is why this is a non-starter. This is why Ireland is not unified. Two nations which cannot come together and share. I say a united Irish state should come before any team. I don't see why this makes sense. Should we have a Basque national team spanning over France and Spain? A Kurdistan spanning several states? But even these are full nations. Ireland is not.

[crc]

Well the IFA insisting the Northern Irish team be called Ireland until the 1960's exactly, they did this until they were forced by FIFA to change because both sides used the name Ireland. This shows that at least up until then they didn't define their nationality in a narrow six-county sense.


It depends to be honest. Some Unionists define themselves as purely British, some as simply Ulster, others as Northern Irish and a small few as simply Irish. What you are basically saying is that you can have only one identity, which is untrue. What people are failing to understand is that is possible and legitimate to feel British AND Irish AND Ulster-ish (sic).



The reason why partition never took place in these sports because they were for the main part played by Protestants North and South of the border. Just as there is no division in the GAA as it is practically an exclusive Catholic sport on both sides. Let's not forget who broke away from whom. The Northerners didn't want to divide the Irish international football team, or the league; as noted above this view was true at least until the 1960s, and is almost certainly still the case today (They are the IRISH FA, not Northern Irish FA, their competitions are the IRISH league and the IRISH Cup).



...there was once a survey done amongst Protestant and Catholic football supporters in the North. They were asked in a competition involving the home nations and the Republic how would they like the teams to finish. Most Protestants gave NI first. They were then split about 50/50 on wanting Eng or Sco second. A majority wanted the ROI to finish last. Seems to indicate a preference for England over the ROI at least and not a major aversion to England.I won't deny that any of this is true, but have you any link or reference to tell us when it was from? I remembered yesterday, after people quoted the poisonous atmosphere in Windsor in Nov '93, that this game took place very shortly the Shankill bomb and the Greysteel masacre, a low point in relations between the communities if ever there was one. I'm pretty sure that relations are better now - any Longford or Shels fans have anything to say on this how they got on with Glens and Ports supporters?


...Basque... ...Kurdistan... But even these are full nations. Ireland is not.I'm pretty sure you don't understand the complexities of either the Basque nation or Kurdistan.

[crc]

Why not the Sash? Ulster protestant heritage etc. Rousing (unlike Danny Boy) and can hardly be construed as 'sectarian' if song on ALL occasions (home and away) either before or after the Soldier's Song."...from Erin's isle I came, etc..." I don't mind, I even sing it the odd time to see how people react, but as you say later in you're post, it's viewed as a sectarian song by some, just as Amhran na bhFiann is by others.


Again why not the flags of both teams? Again, fine. I was just trying to point out that we shouldn't just fly the tricolour because southern Catholics think it represents everyone. Parrity of esteem, etc..


What's wrong with Belfast?No problem. I was trying to counter the domineering leanings of southerners. I just favoured (L')Derry because that's where I grew up, and because both sides could feel comfortable there (The FAI had there AGM there last year, I think).

[Poor Student]

exactly, they did this until they were forced by FIFA to change because both sides used the name Ireland. This shows that at least up until then they didn't define their nationality in a narrow six-county sense.

I think they refused to change from more of an arrogant bitter perspective rather than refusing to narrow the definition of nationality.


What you are basically saying is that you can have only one identity, which is untrue. What people are failing to understand is that is possible and legitimate to feel British AND Irish AND Ulster-ish (sic).

No I am not. I am looking at survey results in a book I have 'Explaining Northern Ireland'. The survey choices include being able to distinguish yourself as both Britsh and Irish. An increasing majority of Protestants over time chose British above identites such as Ulster and Northern Irish which entail some sort of a hybrid identity and very few chose British/Irish.


Let's not forget who broke away from whom. The Northerners didn't want to divide the Irish international football team, or the league; as noted above this view was true at least until the 1960s, and is almost certainly still the case today (They are the IRISH FA, not Northern Irish FA, their competitions are the IRISH league and the IRISH Cup).

They may not wanted to have divide it then but the manner of the footballing structure is global in outlook now and the very fact they have a team at all in an anomaly. Like rugby they'd have been looking at the game in a more 'home nation' perspective. Just because they insist on holding onto the right to the name 'Irish' league etc. doesn't make them broad in their outlook of nationality. It is a misleading name after all.



I won't deny that any of this is true, but have you any link or reference to tell us when it was from? I remembered yesterday, after people quoted the poisonous atmosphere in Windsor in Nov '93, that this game took place very shortly the Shankill bomb and the Greysteel masacre, a low point in relations between the communities if ever there was one. I'm pretty sure that relations are better now - any Longford or Shels fans have anything to say on this how they got on with Glens and Ports supporters?

The survey was from the book I mentioned earlier. Granted it as from 1991 but still a reasonable indicator of attitudes.


I'm pretty sure you don't understand the complexities of either the Basque nation or Kurdistan.

Sorry, why do you assume that?

[thejollyrodger]

let's not forget who broke away from whom. The Northerners didn't want to divide the Irish international football team, or the league; as noted above this view was true at least until the 1960s, and is almost certainly still the case today (They are the IRISH FA, not Northern Irish FA, their competitions are the IRISH league and the IRISH Cup).

No they didnt want us to break away from them, but they wanted to keep banging on with 'God save the queen' no catholics allowed and general british attitude.


Again why not the flags of both teams?


There is no representation of ireland on the british flag, its Scotland Wales and England. It might as well be the Iraqi national flag flying up there. :rolleyes:

[Eire06]

There is no representation of ireland on the british flag, its Scotland Wales and England. It might as well be the Iraqi national flag flying up there. :rolleyes:

Appart from the fact that Iraq never invaded, forced people off their land and killed people for speaking their own language...

Waiting from the backlash from the 'know it all's/ I'm right and your all stupid' people on this site tellin me I live in the past... :rolleyes:

But its our history that has put us where we are now

[stojkovic]

There is no representation of ireland on the british flag, its Scotland Wales and England. It might as well be the Iraqi national flag flying up there. :rolleyes:
Yes there is rodger.

The flag of St Patrick IS represented in the Union Flag.

[crc]

I think they refused to change from more of an arrogant bitter perspective rather than refusing to narrow the definition of nationality.
they'd have been looking at the game in a more 'home nation' perspectiveAs I said before, it is possible to feel Irish, without relinquishing Britishness, or 'home nation-ness'.


'Explaining Northern Ireland'. The survey choices include being able to distinguish yourself as both Britsh and Irish. An increasing majority of Protestants over time chose British above identites such as Ulster and Northern Irish which entail some sort of a hybrid identity and very few chose British/Irish. I am aware of this, but in Interpreting Northern Ireland(1990) by John Whyte, he states that the diminishing number of Unionists who choose any kind of Irishness in surveys can be explained by IRA idiots trying to blow them up over thirty years. In Whyte's book there are surveys showing that before the trauma of the Troubles, many in the Protestant community felt Irish to some extent aswell as British.


Just because they insist on holding onto the right to the name 'Irish' league etc. doesn't make them broad in their outlook of nationality. It is a misleading name after all. As is Football Association of Ireland, why not "Football Association of the Republic of Ireland"?


Sorry, why do you assume that?Because you said they were 'full nations, unlike Ireland'. In fact their situations have share common characteristics with Ireland. In both the Basque and Kurdish nationalities there are many who, as well as feeling Basque or Kurdish, are comfortable living within France (Bixente Lizarazu) or Spain, or Turkey, Iraq, or Iran. Obviously not all feel this way, but as I said the issues are complicated, just as they are in Ireland.

[Doire Abu]

No they didnt want us to break away from them, but they wanted to keep banging on with 'God save the queen' no catholics allowed and general british attitude.



There is no representation of ireland on the british flag, its Scotland Wales and England. It might as well be the Iraqi national flag flying up there. :rolleyes:

The Union flag has the English cross of St George, the Scottish cross of St Andrew and St Patrick's cross representing Ireland. It's a Red diagonal cross if you didn't know. Created in 1801 when the new union was founded. There is no Welsh emblem in it at all.