Tonights games 1/06/18

[Nesta99]

Just to clarify, of course JC didn't plan for us to do so poorly or anything. I actually remarked yesterday after we scored after letting Derry back into it, that I dunno what our team would do if they were properly favourites for any competition. It works for them and JC to be underdogs, he plays on that. We definitely struggled with the lead. I guess for me, going into that Dundalk game, I wasn't thinking 'we might only be 7 points up after this', I was thinking 'we can win the league tonight'. Our record against you played a big part in that, I wasnt overly worried about losing.

But yes, while I don't think the situations are too similar, especially on the underdogs vs run away leaders motivation sense. We did technically what I said we wouldn't. I just don't think its the same kind of situation. But we'll see!

As has been said a few times Dundalk fans know exactly the challange that lies ahead and we are not claiming a favourites tag or suggesting a runaway league win. If there is to be an outright favourite then it would have to be Cork based on the majority of yer recent results against Dundalk and with the head to head being so key this season. I tend to agree that the pressure of leading from the front didnt suit cork that well last season. There wont be a collapse in form like last season by Cork but mainly due to not heavily relying on the exceptional performances of one player.

[joey B]

Harps once again abject at home to average opposition,Some of the defending for the goals we conceded was untrue,and going the other way attacking wise we look laboured and slow,desperate need of a result in Galway.

[micls]

Yeah, I accept its not the dundalk camp or fans making the one horse race comments. Although obviously yed love if it did end like that!

[Ezeikial]

Supporters are inevitably influenced by what they see live against their own club.

A Bray supporter may view Cork in a different light after two successive 0-4 defeats, than how they see Dundalk after a 0-0 in Oriel and an unlucky 0-2 defeat in the Carlisie. On the other hand Shamrock Rovers supporters may have witnessed a comprehensive 3-0 win over Cork and compare it with last weeks 2-5 defeat to Dundalk.

The playing style of Dundalk is widely acknowledged as more fluent and creative and this may unduly influence some peoples opinion; although it is a very different issue from which team is likely to gather enough points to win the league.

it is probable that the league race will go right to the wire, and head-to-head results, how far the respective teams progress in Europe and their ability to deal with it, strength in depth of the squads, the willingness and abilty of the managers to rotate players, and dollops of luck are likely to all play a significant part.

[micls]

I'd agree with all of that. And I can understand completely why Rovers fans would see Dundalk as more likely to win the league than us. I think though, a lot of people, especially on the podcasts and the like, seem to conflate your second point with meaning they'll win by a distance, while ignoring the points on the board to a certain extent.

That said, they said on GLITW Caulfield is probably delighted that they're downplaying our chances, and they're probably right. There are times you'd be worried about complacency in a double winning team, at least we don't have that worry!

[White Horse]

That said, they said on GLITW Caulfield is probably delighted that they're downplaying our chances, and they're probably right. There are times you'd be worried about complacency in a double winning team, at least we don't have that worry!

Teams that win leagues and doubles should not have to worry about motivation. I suggest that whether LOI pundits are lauding Cork, or ignoring them, it has no effect on Cork. If they were influenced by such things they would not have turned three successive runner up spots into a title win.

Whatever one thinks about Corks playing style, there should be no doubts about their determination and bottle.

[Pablo Escobar]

Our style has been generally awful this season and performances have been in-line with that for the most part. However, I feel we've turned a corner these past few weeks and have looked far more fluid and incisive. Most of us have been acknowledging the poor performances and saying/hoping that we had improvement in us. That seems to have been proven correct.

Personally, I'd still have Dundalk as slight favourites and I feel that they are more likely to win the league by more than 3 points than us, if you know what I mean. It'll still be tight either way IMO.

[micls]

Teams that win leagues and doubles should not have to worry about motivation. I suggest that whether LOI pundits are lauding Cork, or ignoring them, it has no effect on Cork. If they were influenced by such things they would not have turned three successive runner up spots into a title win.

Whatever one thinks about Corks playing style, there should be no doubts about their determination and bottle.

I disagree there. Its not rare to see a team who has won the league struggle a bit the following season. Whether it's the pressure of being favourites, keeping the motivation or hunger or what. To be fair to Dundalk, that never seemed to happen to ye, but it wouldn't be unusual. Those three runners up spots were no doubt huge motivation.

For us, we've never retained a league, so it would be huge to do so.

[Nesta99]

If Cork showed the sort of positivity and confidence away from home that they do in Turners Cross Dundalk would really need to up their chance to goal ratio and put games to bed rather than giving fans heart attacks in injury time. Whether it is Caulfield's default mode again to be more conservative away like prior to last season or a vulnerability when up against a partizan crowd Cork fans would have a better idea. If its the former then it seems like a bit of lacking in confidence in the players to just get on and play their game regardless of where they are playing. If its the latter then the players are spoilt by the great support in Turners Cross and are a little brittle without that level home support whan playing away. I think it was a misjudgement by Caulfield to imply that biased crowds influence results as the players can unwittingly feed in to such thinking. Not unlike talking up an advantage to a pitch. As in micls example of an away team celebratng in front of The Shed it serves to motivate the Cork players to lift their performance and hit back - its the same type of psychology and transferring that steeliness to all venues would be ominous for any of Cork's opponents. It is probably playing away from home in Europe that shows a team's complete belief in their ability and system or not if there is any reverting to panicky hoofing the ball long!??

[micls]

Caulfield is a naturally defensive manager. Always has been and always will be. He builds his team on being solid defensively. He will likely always be of the opinion that the priority away from home is to not lose, and then look to win. Its worked for him so its hard to argue. Success is the decider, whatever peoples opinions on style of play.

I do think there is a difference in panicking and aimlessly playing the ball long, and looking for a long pass to a strong player up front. I would say most of the time we are the second type. Look for a pass up front quickly, and get our dangerous players supporting that ball once it's up there. It generally works well. Earlier this season though, there were definitely games where it was panicky get the all forward style though. Personally, I think a fair bit of that is down to how young the 2 centre halves are. I think they've been told to be sure, and if they're not sure, then just clear it. It's been very obvious when Benno came back in recently, that he started looking for shorter balls into the middle to McNamee and Keohane. In fairness, McLoughlin has become more confident it doing it too. McCarthy though, like Delaney last year, tends to either hoof it, or look for the incredible defense splitting long ball which tends to not come off often. Cummins is starting to bring players into play a lot more recently, which has improved our overall play significantly.

I've really enjoyed out last 4/5 games. Very enjoyable to watch and hopeful we can bring that form into Europe.

I wouldn't be expecting us to open up and play the ball around away from home in Europe though. Its not Caulfield's style.

[Nesta99]

Caulfield is a naturally defensive manager. Always has been and always will be. He builds his team on being solid defensively. He will likely always be of the opinion that the priority away from home is to not lose, and then look to win. Its worked for him so its hard to argue. Success is the decider, whatever peoples opinions on style of play.
.

Well it worked eventually with an exeptional season by Maguire. Arguably not so solid after Maguire left. 3 leagues, cup (double) and 2 league cups. Some good results in Europe including away fom home. A league and Cup double is not to be sneezed at but on balance the relative success of each club over the last 4 years sways to the less conservative approach giving better return. This season's end will show that a pragmatic, conservative approach can be just effective if Cork retain the league. If Cork dont retain the league it could well be down to Caulfield's safety first away from home as obviously winning 2 from 6 games is same return as 6 solid draws and Cork would win more than 2 from 6 even if caution is thrown to the wind. In Europe if drawn at home first and Caulfield will probably set up not to concede even in Turners Cross. Its not a criticism but the second half of last season has probably caused JC to revert to type and I think it shackles a talented squad that is well capable of winning away from home in most cases without the over cautious approach.

[micls]

No arguable about it, we weren't anywhere near as solid towards the end of last season. Our structure was poor and we struggled. Part of it was adapting to losing Seani, part of it was probably a general bad patch you'd have most seasons, part was coping with the pressure I'm sure.

Start of this season we were very dodgy defensively. We've had a lot of change in the back 4 and it took time to get the right people and get it right. There's clearly been enormous work done in that regard and it's a credit to them.

Personally, I don't think the success of the last few seasons between the two clubs is directly comparable. Obviously, you guys have been far more successful, there's no questioning that. But style of play aside, Kenny is an incredibly experienced and successful manager in the league. He had ye finishing 2nd the year before Caulfield took over, while we were 6th. I think ye're squad was miles ahead of us at that point and the success of the following years is an indictment of that. Kenya experience of the league definitely stood to him in attracting players and building the squad he wanted (a few times over).

While Caulfield hasn't been as successful as Kenny has in that time, he has had incredible sustained and consistent success in his short time as an LOI manager. As a club we have never been consistent as we are now. He's won more trophies than any previous manager and had us challenging every year, as well as securing our first double and retaining the Cup for the first time ever. I don't think anyone would have asked for more than that when he came in.

I'd agree Kennys style is a big part of ye're European success, and it suits better on that front.

I don't think you're draws vs wins example is valid though. We're not going out, playing conservatively and drawing 6 games. We're going away, playing relatively conservatively and winning most games. Away from home we've won 6, lost 3 and drawn 2.

Of the draws, we played attacking football in Limerick, but we didn't take our chances. You could definitely argue we could have attacked more in Derry.

Of the losses, we simply didn't show up against yourselves and Rovers. I don't think it was really a style thing. You both scored early and we were chasing the game unsuccessfully for the rest of it. For Waterford you could argue we could have pushed on more after our goal.

I would say we could potentially have gained 4 extra points playing more attacking. Would we have potentially dropped that amount or more if we'd been more attacking in all games? Possibly, we were poor defensively earlier in the season. Who knows. Overall though, our away form isn't bad, though obviously not as good as at home.

It's always going to be hard to compare the effectiveness of styles of football in the league directly. Budget, squad, ability to attract players all have such a huge influence on things as well. I don't think if we retain the league this season it means Caulfields style is better or more effective than Kennys. Similarly I wouldn't think the opposite. They're different managers with different approaches to the game. I think both styles can be effective within the league (Europe is a different story), and it will come down to the smaller nitty gritty stuff, like the head to heads.

There's some misconception that we were playing fantastic football this time last year and have reverted to something different now. There is very little different in our current style of play than this time last year. The difference was a superstar up front. We're playing some lovely stuff now too (different in style from Kenny though), and hopefully we keep up the form

[El-Pietro]

I'd have Shep in the team, especially in games where we need width he changed the game tonight. JC likes Barry McNamee but also likes Sadlier and Buckley and is trying to figure out how to get them all into the team. As things stand hes been playing McNamee wide right where he is not at his best. Thats before you think about Stephen Beattie who came in and played number 10 tonight.

Aaron Barry didn't have a great start to the season and lost his place to the two young centre halves McLoughlin and McCarthy and is probably fourth choice right now with Benno coming back into the side in recent weeks

Apparently Shep has been dealing with Arthritis since last August which he has only recently been able to manage through a series of injections. Incredible that he just got on with it and never came out to explain that he was suffering so badly. If he has fully recovered then we have just gotten a super star in League of ireland terms back. It sounds like the injections have made his condition completely manageable and may even cure it over the long term.
http://leagueofireland.ie/index.php/2018/06/06/johnny-ward-speaks-to-karl-sheppard-the-league-of-ireland-star-living-with-arthritis/

[White Horse]

Dundalk dodged a bullet there.

[micls]

Dundalk dodged a bullet there.

I'm sure your medical team would have been aware of it when it came to doing a medical?

Anyway, great to see him back to his best. He was absolutely fantastic on Monday and a great reminder of what he's capable of. Delighted for him that things are on the up.

[Nesta99]

Dunno about that unless a blood panel was done to look specifically for those markers. Maybe its routine but I doubt it. It great that how he is being managed has allowed him continue to play but tbh it will catch up with him. He wont be playing beyond his mid 30's and thats at a push. Just on this “The injection creates a natural fluid in the body that stops the grinding of sore bones' - every auld person in the country would be getting this if it was a 'solution' rather than a stop gap. Deep heat on the back where there are cuts.......why?? and Ouch!!!!

Just had a quick look there and there isnt a specific blood work up that would indicate anything, its a combination of things or more a process of elimination. Anything autoimmune is going to be a long term issue and current management isnt a cure. He might be lucky and it be mild but it can also flare and get severe. So WH isnt far off by his thinking in dodging a bullet. If Cork get a couple of good seasons symptom free its a bonus!!

[micls]

I meant more your medical team would realise there was a problem, he had consistent back problem and couldn't stand properly at times at that stage, rather than they'd diagnose exactly what it was.

I'm sure its a long road ahead for Shep, just delighted for him that he's found a treatment that's working for now and hopefully it continues to be successful as he hopes. He's a fantastic lad and great to see him enjoying football again.

[Nesta99]

Ah yeah its great that anything is working and long may it continue for him. It sounds like the problem was a bit of a mystery and the club doc/physio looked for some expertise that sussed out the issue and a job well done. For sure the medical at Oriel would have shown up a problem (with his back as you say) and likely have put a question mark over the signing. But it was unlikely that any medical would have flagged much more beyond a back issue. They could have taken a punt on getting it sorted possibly, not knowing the root cause. The deep heat on his back is an odd one, topical voltorol yup that would help but I will say again Ouch!. I hope he is in the lucky camp and plays for as long as he wishes!! But tbh as things are currently its management of the condition rather than a jab a week fixing it for him - that could change too. How is Dunleavy's recovery, maybe i missed it but is he back kicking ball?

[El-Pietro]

It great that how he is being managed has allowed him continue to play but tbh it will catch up with him. He wont be playing beyond his mid 30's and thats at a push. Just on this “The injection creates a natural fluid in the body that stops the grinding of sore bones' - every auld person in the country would be getting this if it was a 'solution' rather than a stop gap.

He has a specific type of Arthritis called Psoriatic Arthritis. In the article with Johnny Ward he said that the doctor was hopeful that within 4-5 years the injections would no longer be necessary but even if they were still required he could continue taking them. A City fan on our forum has said they have the same condition and have been taking the injections for 12 years. I have no idea how much pain he will still be in if any, or how long he can continue playing, just going off the article and the quotes from KS.

[Eminence Grise]

Psoriatic arthrisis should have been easy to pick up since it's a direct consequence of psoriasis. A GP can make a connection between symptoms (skin plaques, joint pain, hm!) and refer to a specialist. Other forms are much harder to find - seronegative rheumatoid arthritis is a particular bu**er to diagnose (rheumatoid but all the tests say it isn't) and it's often mistreated as osteoarthritis. Either way, it's a painful condition for daily living, never mind for an elite athlete. I've had a few flares in recent years of another type and the pain has floored me. I wish him the very best.

[marinobohs]

Supporters are inevitably influenced by what they see live against their own club.

A Bray supporter may view Cork in a different light after two successive 0-4 defeats, than how they see Dundalk after a 0-0 in Oriel and an unlucky 0-2 defeat in the Carlisie. On the other hand Shamrock Rovers supporters may have witnessed a comprehensive 3-0 win over Cork and compare it with last weeks 2-5 defeat to Dundalk.

The playing style of Dundalk is widely acknowledged as more fluent and creative and this may unduly influence some peoples opinion; although it is a very different issue from which team is likely to gather enough points to win the league.

it is probable that the league race will go right to the wire, and head-to-head results, how far the respective teams progress in Europe and their ability to deal with it, strength in depth of the squads, the willingness and abilty of the managers to rotate players, and dollops of luck are likely to all play a significant part.

Would 100% agree with that based on what I have seen of both. Dundalk far more impressive (style wise) but Cork resilient and expert at getting results. difficult to call who will finish top but both excellent and a fair bit ahead of the pack.