Israel debate

[Eldad]

I hope nothing happens but it's Easter weekend and Israels biggest match in years.

How do they qualify as part of Europe anyway?

That's because many of Asia teams said they don't agree to play against Israel, or can't host Israel or to get there for a game...

In the 80's Israel qualified as a part of Australia and the Pacific region, but it was very difficult for Israel to fly so many hours for a one game and for small islands to get to TA...

[Éanna]

Israel qualifies as part of Europe because they receive special treatment in football, the same way as they do at the UN and seemingly everywhere else :rolleyes:

The Arab countries, quite rightly, don't want anything to do with them, and it is only spinlessness on the part of FIFA and UEFA which allows them to compete at all. Unfortunately Israel's genocidal policy towards the rightful occupants of its land is not regarded as being serious enough to deal with. They should be given the boot the same way South Africa was during the aparetheid years

[Green Tribe]

yeah but if u say that, then the likes of zimbabwe and sudan should also get the kicking from Fifa/uefa, non?

sorry, not meaning to be political, i am not usually... :D :D

[Éanna]

yeah but if u say that, then the likes of zimbabwe and sudan should also get the kicking from Fifa/uefa, non?

sorry, not meaning to be political, i am not usually... :D :D
Yes, they should also get the boot. But Israel has been doing this for a lot longer then these two countries. Anyway, better not let it go too off topic or I'll have to ban myself :eek: :D

[Green Tribe]

Yes, they should also get the boot. But Israel has been doing this for a lot longer then these two countries. Anyway, better not let it go too off topic or I'll have to ban myself :eek: :D

ha ha ha :D aye!!

[Colbert Report]

I've got nothing against Israel, I just don't see how their football team can possibly be put in with Europe - the way the planet is divided up is by geography, not politics. If Asian teams refuse to play against them, then too bad. Israel is not part of Europe.

[Gibbe84]

Israel qualifies as part of Europe because they receive special treatment in football, the same way as they do at the UN and seemingly everywhere else :rolleyes:

The Arab countries, quite rightly, don't want anything to do with them, and it is only spinlessness on the part of FIFA and UEFA which allows them to compete at all. Unfortunately Israel's genocidal policy towards the rightful occupants of its land is not regarded as being serious enough to deal with. They should be given the boot the same way South Africa was during the aparetheid years

You are talking crap. Israel has the land legally. Under international law if another nation attacks you and tries to conquor your land you are legally allowed to take any land captured from them. The Arabs invaded Israel and lost the land due to their own fault. I don't really like Israel or it's policies, but the land they took is 100% legal.

[Condex]

The Arab countries, quite rightly, don't want anything to do with them, and it is only spinlessness on the part of FIFA and UEFA which allows them to compete at all. Unfortunately Israel's genocidal policy towards the rightful occupants of its land is not regarded as being serious enough to deal with. They should be given the boot the same way South Africa was during the aparetheid years

Typical one sided support for undemocratic Arab countries which pay lip serive to human rights.

[pineapple stu]

I don't really like Israel or its policies, but the land they took is 100% legal.
Apart from UN Resolution 181 (http://www.palestine-un.org/info/geo2.html) of 1947 setting out the exact borders of an independent Palestine state which the US and Israel have consistently ignored, is it?

[Éanna]

You are talking crap. Israel has the land legally. Under international law if another nation attacks you and tries to conquor your land you are legally allowed to take any land captured from them. The Arabs invaded Israel and lost the land due to their own fault. I don't really like Israel or it's policies, but the land they took is 100% legal.
Has the land legally? No it doesn't. For starters have a look at the UN resolutions. When you're finished with them ask yourself just how morally right the decision to found the state of Israel in 1948(?) and summarily expell palestinians from their homes was. Israel is an illegal, terrorist state which has done the chances of peace more damage than Saddam, the religious fanatics running Iran, the dictatorship in Syria, the brutal regime in Saudi all put together.

Typical one sided support for undemocratic Arab countries which pay lip serive to human rights.
Very hard for the Palestinians to be democratic when the Israeli'e interfere with their elections. :rolleyes: I agree, there are undemocratic countries in the Arab world which need reform, but when they're told that Israel is an example of democracy, who'd blame them for avoiding it.

[Éanna]

I've split the thread- this one is quite interesting so far :)

[Soko]

**** Israel

[Eire06]

I've got nothing against Israel, I just don't see how their football team can possibly be put in with Europe - the way the planet is divided up is by geography, not politics. If Asian teams refuse to play against them, then too bad. Israel is not part of Europe.

Sorry to burst you bubble vega007 but its all politics these days...


You are talking crap. Israel has the land legally. Under international law if another nation attacks you and tries to conquor your land you are legally allowed to take any land captured from them

he he, you mental?... think a bit colser to home :o

[lopez]

Unfortunately Israel's genocidal policy towards the rightful occupants of its land is not regarded as being serious enough to deal with. They should be given the boot the same way South Africa was during the aparetheid yearsMuch as I disagree with European colonialism, you seem to have a blinkered view of the Zionist Occupied Palestine in comparison with South Africa.

1. South Africa never allowed the vote to any black citizen. Israel allows the vote to Arabs within its state.

2. South Africa had the death penalty. Israel doesn't (and if you are going to mention the assasination of Hamas members etc. then surely we should have told all British teams and Spain to f*ck off in the eighties and nineties).

3. Israel has Arabs playing football in their national side and national league. South Africa's exclusion from sport had nothing to do with its national policies, nothing to do with the (all-white) teams it picked, and everything to to do with telling their opponents who to, and who not to, pick.

BTW, we have a game against a certain other country with a poor record of human rights, discrimination, death penalty, and not forgetting agression and invasion of its neighbours, just three days after the Israel game. Where's the post for that?


...When you're finished with them ask yourself just how morally right the decision to found the state of Israel in 1948(?) and summarily expell palestinians from their homes was...The 'moral' decision to found a Jewish state - right or wrong - was born out of the virtual annihilation of European Jews. Had this not had happened I doubt that the state would have been founded.

As for expelling Arabs, :rolleyes: let's not forget the Jews that have been expelled from Arab lands (or not as in the case of Jews in Syria who were held as virtual prisoners for years). While a million Arabs continue to live within the 'genocidal' Israeli state (WB & Gaza excluded), only a handful of Jews remain in Arab states and Iran. Unlike these wonderful Arab states, Israel has taken in these people. Instead of allowing Palestinians to live in squalour for generations, the Arab countries might consider re-housing their 'brothers' in the homes of Jews that left their countries, or is it the case that corruption has seen much of this property (Jews were on average more wealthy) has already been 're-allocated.'

[dcfcsteve]

I'm no apologist for the state of Israel, but the simple fact of life is that that there are 5.25 million Jews living in the land that is now called Israel.

Whether their presence there is 'right' or 'wrong' - and given that Jewish people first started consciously returning to the Holy Land in large numbers over a century ago, when there was no 'country' there, I can't see any reason why their presence could be considered 'wrong' - the simple fact is that they are there. The alternative to recognising that they exist in the Middle East is to send them all packing from the region, a la 1930's Germany..

Given that reality dictates that their presence needs to be accepted, why should the hostility of their Arab neighbours (who until very recently completely and utterly refused to accept their right to be in the Middle East) prevent Israel from playing football or any other sport ? It shouldn't, but given Arab hostility to the idea, Israel have had to play in other qualifying groups for football. Given it's location, playing in the European group is the most sensible solution to this.

The state of Israel does many things wrong from a human rights point of view, and this is to be abhorred. This does not, however, bring into question whether the Israelis should be allowed a state of their own, and by extension whether they should be allowed to participate in world sports. If Israel was to be excluded on these grounds, then so should China, Indonesia, Turkey, USA, UK, and a number of Arab states themselves...

[Éanna]

Much as I disagree with European colonialism, you seem to have a blinkered view of the Zionist Occupied Palestine in comparison with South Africa.

1. South Africa never allowed the vote to any black citizen. Israel allows the vote to Arabs within its state.

2. South Africa had the death penalty. Israel doesn't (and if you are going to mention the assasination of Hamas members etc. then surely we should have told all British teams and Spain to f*ck off in the eighties and nineties).

3. Israel has Arabs playing football in their national side and national league. South Africa's exclusion from sport had nothing to do with its national policies, nothing to do with the (all-white) teams it picked, and everything to to do with telling their opponents who to, and who not to, pick.
I'm not saying they're exactly the same, but there are parallels.
1. Yes it does. But what about all the people it expelled from "it's" land, who should be entitled to a vote, but are not.
2. Assasinations if and when they chose, internment, demolition of people's homes etc. And of course shooting children for throwing stones.
3. As I said, the situations are not exactly the same, but are comparable in some respects.


The 'moral' decision to found a Jewish state - right or wrong - was born out of the virtual annihilation of European Jews. Had this not had happened I doubt that the state would have been founded.

As for expelling Arabs, :rolleyes: let's not forget the Jews that have been expelled from Arab lands (or not as in the case of Jews in Syria who were held as virtual prisoners for years). While a million Arabs continue to live within the 'genocidal' Israeli state (WB & Gaza excluded), only a handful of Jews remain in Arab states and Iran. Unlike these wonderful Arab states, Israel has taken in these people. Instead of allowing Palestinians to live in squalour for generations, the Arab countries might consider re-housing their 'brothers' in the homes of Jews that left their countries, or is it the case that corruption has seen much of this property (Jews were on average more wealthy) has already been 're-allocated.'
In both these cases- do two wrongs make a right?

[Éanna]

Whether their presence there is 'right' or 'wrong' - and given that Jewish people first started consciously returning to the Holy Land in large numbers over a century ago, when there was no 'country' there, I can't see any reason why their presence could be considered 'wrong' - the simple fact is that they are there. The alternative to recognising that they exist in the Middle East is to send them all packing from the region, a la 1930's Germany..
No need to send them packing at all. I accept their right to live there, 100%, people can live where they like, but they should stop claiming it as "their" country and allow full, free fair elections within the entire country of palestine (incl "israel") with ALL refugees entitled to return and vote.


Given that reality dictates that their presence needs to be accepted, why should the hostility of their Arab neighbours (who until very recently completely and utterly refused to accept their right to be in the Middle East) prevent Israel from playing football or any other sport ? It shouldn't, but given Arab hostility to the idea, Israel have had to play in other qualifying groups for football. Given it's location, playing in the European group is the most sensible solution to this.
You reap what you sow. Tough shít on them.


The state of Israel does many things wrong from a human rights point of view, and this is to be abhorred. This does not, however, bring into question whether the Israelis should be allowed a state of their own, and by extension whether they should be allowed to participate in world sports. If Israel was to be excluded on these grounds, then so should China, Indonesia, Turkey, USA, UK, and a number of Arab states themselves...
Agreed. But none of those are in Ireland's group

[Partizan]

Israel like the old SA is an fascist state who carries out anti-semitic policies and whose government I abhor to the highest order. I make it my own personal business not to buy Israeli goods nor to travel or support Israel in any shape or form. I adopted the same approach on SA in the 80's.

However politics and football should not mix. I have my own personal viewpoints and if people want to boycott Israel, fine but I wouldnt hold it against anyone if they wished to travel to Israel.

I'm pro Palestinian and the political party that I'm a member of has always enjoyed strong cordial relationship with the PLO and other Palestinian groups as well as various Israeli peace groups and like minded political parties, Meretz and Communist Party of Israel. However believe in the right for the state of Israel to exist and her security be guaranteed but Sharon is making a total balls of things.

To sum it up, if Irish fans want to go, they can I have no problem but the protests can wait for another day.

[dcfcsteve]

Agreed. But none of those are in Ireland's group

And your point is.....?

We played Turkey in a play-off a few years back, but I don't recall anyone complaining about them then ? Their much more recent invasion of Cyprus (1974) - which is also condemned by UN resolutions and recognised as legitimate by no-one except Turkey- their expulsion of Creek Cypriots from their own homes in the occupied Northern section of that country, their refusal to grant any land-rights to those expelled Greeks, their treatment of the Kurds right up to the present day, their appalling human rights record (anyone see the coverage of how they 'dealt with' a peaceful woman's rights rally in Istanbul last week ? They basically battered the women and sprayed them with huge amounts of tear gas at very close range. Absolutely shocking....).

Again, I'm no apologist for Israel, and would naturally side with the Palestinians. But I also hate those who claim human rights etc are so important to them, and who then go and cherry-pick which particular sitautions they feel abhorred at. You either have an issue with the treatment of the Palestinians, the Greek Cypriots, the Kurds, the Tibetans, the Timorese, the South African blacks, the Northern Irish Catholics etc etc, or you don't. You can't pick and choose the more trendy/populist issues to be upset about and ignore the rest - particularly as in the case of Turkey where it is almost an identical situation to Israel.

Oh, and by the way - we're playing China in a friendly in a few weeks time. At home. At our invitation. I look forward to the wave of revulsion over their effective annihilation of the nation of Tibet, their ongoing suppression of democracy, their use of torture/state-sponsored murder against dissidents etc etc bursting forth onto the pages of foot.ie . But I won't be holding my breath.....

[liamon]

And your point is.....?
..... You either have an issue with the treatment of the Palestinians, the Greek Cypriots, the Kurds, the Tibetans, the Timorese, the South African blacks, the Northern Irish Catholics etc etc, or you don't. ........
To be fair to Eanna, it's hard to stand up for the entire world at once. You have to start somewhere. And the forthcoming matches do offer a chance to voice dissapproval.

I don't see anywhere in his posts any statement that says you should ignore other evils in the world at the expense of the Israeli situation.
Or should we ignore them, coz so many other countires are up to similar tricks?

[SÓC]

No need to send them packing at all. I accept their right to live there, 100%, people can live where they like, but they should stop claiming it as "their" country and allow full, free fair elections within the entire country of palestine (incl "israel") with ALL refugees entitled to return and vote.


Again like many others I no friend of Israel but the Jews have had a claim on certain parts of that land longer that any say Celtic (Keltic now, not Seltic!) peoples have had a claim on Ireland.

Nothing excuses the shocking way the Israeli state has taken land from various countries and the way they've treated the Arabs. A state like Israel has every right to exist, the shocking acts their government commits often causes me to forget this.

[pineapple stu]

A state like Israel has every right to exist
Don't think anyone's trying to argue Israel doesn't have a right to exist. This was all set out in 1947 as to who would get what, and yet Israel's expansionist policies, together with the disgraceful complete and unconditional backing of the US are still ongoing to this day, and the Palestinians haven't gotten what's theirs by right. That's where the problem is.

[SÓC]

Don't think anyone's trying to argue Israel doesn't have a right to exist. This was all set out in 1947 as to who would get what, and yet Israel's expansionist policies, together with the disgraceful complete and unconditional backing of the US are still ongoing to this day, and the Palestinians haven't gotten what's theirs by right. That's where the problem is.

I agree 100%. I was repsonding to Éanna's suggestion about the election. Israel should hold their own elections in their 1947 borders. Palestinians should have their own. Two seperate states. Can see how they'll ever sort the fact that they both claim the one city as their capital

Where is WAR?:D

[WeAreRovers]

Where is WAR?:D

Too busy trying to save the Republic of Rovers at the moment to bother about Israel. For the record though I agree with you - two state solution with Jerusalem under joint authority, or something like that. :D

As for Irish people travelling there to watch a football match....let's just say that personally I couldn't bring myself to do it. But, as lots of you know, if ROI were playing in my back garden I'd close the curtains.

KOH

[Éanna]

But I also hate those who claim human rights etc are so important to them, and who then go and cherry-pick which particular sitautions they feel abhorred at. You either have an issue with the treatment of the Palestinians, the Greek Cypriots, the Kurds, the Tibetans, the Timorese, the South African blacks, the Northern Irish Catholics etc etc, or you don't. You can't pick and choose the more trendy/populist issues to be upset about and ignore the rest - particularly as in the case of Turkey where it is almost an identical situation to Israel.
I'm not cherry-picking at all. The only reason I brought it up was that someone asked why Israel was in the European qualifying group and I answered it. If it had been China/Turkey/anyone else I would have done the same.
As for saying sport and politics shouldn't be mixed- I think thats the greatest load of bullshít ever. Sport can be a positive way to build bridges (e.g. the Derry -v- Linfield game, Setanta Cup) but it should also be treated as a privilege which can be withdrawn from those undeserving of it. There was a quote from a member of the Franco government after Real Madrid won one of their 5 in a row European Cups, saying "football has done this country a great service" (or words to that effect). What he meant was, Spain was a pariah at the time, and nobody wanted anything to do with Spain, but Real Madrid's footballing excellence won acclaim across Europe and thus helped gain Spain acceptance by parts of the international community. Sport and politics are inextricably linked (why is Ireland -v- England a big game!!!!) and saying they are not is burying one's head in the sand. Accept this, and use it for good. To do anything else is crazy

[Docboy]

Given the history one might assume the jews would have some respect or empathy for the rights of people who have been marginalised. How wrong!

[dcfcsteve]

Given the history one might assume the jews would have some respect or empathy for the rights of people who have been marginalised. How wrong!

Just like you'd expect the Irish to be the one nation in the world to empathise with immigrants. How doubly wrong ! :(

[anto eile]

yeah but if u say that, then the likes of zimbabwe and sudan should also get the kicking from Fifa/uefa, non?



israel should be treated likeapartheid south africa.
and ive personally no complaints with zimbabawe.ever since cecil rhodes conned an african tribal king the whites ie brits have plundered the country for themselves.just like many other countries. robert mugabe was elected in 1980/81 on the back of promises of land reform, ie retake the land from the white farmers who stole it in the first place.hes doing what he promised to do 25 yearsago,so dont act sur[prised by it. i do object to the ultra-violent manner in which hes doing it,but in principle hes right

[lopez]

israel should be treated likeapartheid south africa.
and ive personally no complaints with zimbabawe.ever since cecil rhodes conned an african tribal king the whites ie brits have plundered the country for themselves.just like many other countries. robert mugabe was elected in 1980/81 on the back of promises of land reform, ie retake the land from the white farmers who stole it in the first place.hes doing what he promised to do 25 yearsago,so dont act sur[prised by it. i do object to the ultra-violent manner in which hes doing it,but in principle hes rightWhy should they? Israel doesn't pick its sporting sides purely on racial or religious grounds. Neither has it ever told a visiting side not to pick so-and-so on racial or religious grounds. That's what made South Africa a sporting outcast. What makes Israel different from (cue long list of c*ntish regimes one of whom we'll be playing three days after Tel Aviv) apart from being the enemy of one of Sinn Fein's buddies. :rolleyes:

Zimbabwe's run by a great bloke. Why? Because he's black and not white? What would you think if Bertie Aherne told Nelson Mandela to 'keep your black nose out of our country, if he made a comment about racism in Ireland.' Wouldn't you find that RACIST :eek: , even if Mandela thought it was not the worst thing that's either been said or done to him. Anyway, sure the people who are starving in Zim will be pleased to hear of your support for Uncle Bob.

BTW, I agree Israel should be kicked out of the competition but not for the hypocritically lame reasons you offer. I want them kicked out because they look like being a country that might f*ck up our qualifying chances. :p

[WeAreRovers]

israel should be treated likeapartheid south africa.
and ive personally no complaints with zimbabawe.ever since cecil rhodes conned an african tribal king the whites ie brits have plundered the country for themselves.just like many other countries. robert mugabe was elected in 1980/81 on the back of promises of land reform, ie retake the land from the white farmers who stole it in the first place.hes doing what he promised to do 25 yearsago,so dont act sur[prised by it. i do object to the ultra-violent manner in which hes doing it,but in principle hes right

Very unpopular position but true nonetheless. The Brits created Mugabe by sustaining Smith and his rotten regime in Rhodesia for so long. A fact they seem to have forgotten.

Ask my 72-year-od aunt. She's a nun and spends 6 months a year in Zimbabwe and has zero sympathy for the white fasrmers. According to her they still act like they're living in Rhodesia and are a repellant bunch of unreconstructed racists.

Does this count as taking a thread off-topic? ;)

KOH

[The Good Son]

Very unpopular position but true nonetheless. The Brits created Mugabe by sustaining Smith and his rotten regime in Rhodesia for so long. A fact they seem to have forgotten.

Ask my 72-year-od aunt. She's a nun and spends 6 months a year in Zimbabwe and has zero sympathy for the white fasrmers. According to her they still act like they're living in Rhodesia and are a repellant bunch of unreconstructed racists.

Does this count as taking a thread off-topic? ;)

KOH
I have always been of the opinion that the land reclaiming, in theory at least, is right.But who is really suffering because of this, most of the land that is retaken isn't farmed and is left idle,theres queues for basic things like bread and a severe lack of petrol. I doubt any of the white farmers that haven't been murdered are starving, I also doubt that many Zanu PF people are starving. I stayed in Victoria Falls and Bulawayo(this doesn't mean I presume I've more knowledge of the situation than somebody who has never been there, I don't) for a couple of weeks a couple of years ago, and would agree that you still see that colonial superior attitude of the white people, and would have little sympathy for them but bottom line is it's not them suffering(obviously those that have been murdered and beaten excepted) because of the thug Mugabe. Two wrongs don't make a right. The only person Mugabe cares about is Mugabe.

[WeAreRovers]

The only person Mugabe cares about is Mugabe.

Agree 100% with your post. I was just saying that the situation was created by outside colonial forces and that I have zero sympathy for white ranchers.

KOH

[Sheridan]

But, as lots of you know, if ROI were playing in my back garden I'd close the curtains.
If there's a serviceable pitch in your back garden, how come Rovers haven't played there yet?

[dahamsta]

BobbySands' post has been trashed here (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=23009). People are trying to have a serious discussion here and for once it's progressing amicably. Any further attempts at trolling or flaming will result in an instant and permanent ban from Foot.ie.

BobbySands, I've been looking forward to deleting your account and posts since you were brought to my attention a couple weeks ago. I dare you to push me on this.

adam

[lopez]

Agree 100% with your post. I was just saying that the situation was created by outside colonial forces and that I have zero sympathy for white ranchers.It may be a bit harsh and sweeping but 'Rhodesians' are in my experience an arrogant bunch at the best of time. I remember one old man I met at work one morning, complaining about the way the country had gone (he was a 'policeman' there in 'the good old days'), then went on to complain about present-day Britain as well. Welcome to the 21st century? How's about living in the 20th century first. It is also - as a Zimbabwean I know who was a former CEO of the Zim Rugby Union, pointed out to me - around a dozen white farmers that have been killed in the country whereas the number in South Africa he reckons runs into thousands, although some of those killed bought farms after 1980.

However it still doesn't excuse Bob. He's a racist and a despot - whatever his colour or what the Brits did (in their defence it was Smith declaring UDI that prolonged white rule in the country).

[Green Tribe]

Very unpopular position but true nonetheless. The Brits created Mugabe by sustaining Smith and his rotten regime in Rhodesia for so long. A fact they seem to have forgotten.

Ask my 72-year-od aunt. She's a nun and spends 6 months a year in Zimbabwe and has zero sympathy for the white fasrmers. According to her they still act like they're living in Rhodesia and are a repellant bunch of unreconstructed racists.

Does this count as taking a thread off-topic? ;)

KOH

Fair enough WAR, i appreciate what you are saying, but i believe that Mugabe, like so many other African leaders are contributing to its problems by holding the country back. Unfortunately, like some of the other corrupt leaders and regimes, they are only interested in keeping Africa's wealth to themselves, while the people struggle. What is happening in Zimbabwe and Sudan is horrific. As usual, Africa is ignored.

[Patrick Dunne]

For what its worth, I support the Israeli state and its right to exist.
However, the refusal of Israeli officials in the recent past to allow
members of the Palestinian national team leave the Gaza Strip was unacceptable and should have merited action from the appropriate
football authorities (points deduction).

I note that we had no problem playing Iran in Tehran, despite the fascist regime in place there and the fact that significant amounts of the Irish support were effectively deterred from travellling (women). Fair play to the small amount of "girls in green" who made the trip (less than 10).

The only times I would advocate action a sporting boycott is where there is evidence of institutionalized racism in a sporting body (South African rugby) or when there is evidence of direct interference by the government in sports organisations (Kazahstan ? Afghanistan ? Ireland :D )

Off now for a cup of tea and a Jaffa cake !

[WeAreRovers]

If there's a serviceable pitch in your back garden, how come Rovers haven't played there yet?

Touché!!!!

KOH

[Closed Account 2]

israel should be treated likeapartheid south africa.
and ive personally no complaints with zimbabawe.ever since cecil rhodes conned an african tribal king the whites ie brits have plundered the country for themselves.just like many other countries. robert mugabe was elected in 1980/81 on the back of promises of land reform, ie retake the land from the white farmers who stole it in the first place.hes doing what he promised to do 25 yearsago,so dont act sur[prised by it. i do object to the ultra-violent manner in which hes doing it,but in principle hes right

Thats a risky line to go down, did you support Edi Amin's purge of "non-natives" in Uganda ?

[thejollyrodger]

Personally I dont have a problem with Isreal playing in Europe as long as it is a temporary measure. Once the other arab countries allow Israel to play then Isreal has to be kicked out.

I dont see how their clubs should be allowed in the Champions league though. Thats way wrong

[Metrostars]

BTW, I agree Israel should be kicked out of the competition but not for the hypocritically lame reasons you offer. I want them kicked out because they look like being a country that might f*ck up our qualifying chances. :p


Actually the fact that Israel has taken points off France and Switzerland already may actually improve our chances.

[dcfcsteve]

Personally I dont have a problem with Isreal playing in Europe as long as it is a temporary measure. Once the other arab countries allow Israel to play then Isreal has to be kicked out.

I dont see how their clubs should be allowed in the Champions league though. Thats way wrong

How can you support the principle of the national team playing in Europe, but not the domestic clubs ? The same reasons that preclude the national team's involvement in Arabic/Asian competitions preclude the clubs as well.

Remember - a small number of Israeli clubs are actually Arabic teams (e.g. Bnei Sakhnin, who played Newcastle in the UEFA Cup this year), so by picking on clubs specifically you're doing more damage to Arabs than by picking on the national team.

[Thunderblaster]

Israel like the old SA is an fascist state who carries out anti-semitic policies and whose government I abhor to the highest order.

You do not understand the meaning of anti-semitic. Anti-semitic is anti Judaism, which is the main race and religion of Israel.

[Colbert Report]

still, nobody has answered my question. Why are Israel allowed to play in UEFA, when they are not geographically part of Europe? Thanks.

[Thunderblaster]

still, nobody has answered my question. Why are Israel allowed to play in UEFA, when they are not geographically part of Europe? Thanks.

Neither is Turkey (99%) or Kazakhstan. Surely logging onto the Israeli football federation website and sending an email will answer your question. Israel also competes in the Eurovision Song Contest.

[dcfcsteve]

still, nobody has answered my question. Why are Israel allowed to play in UEFA, when they are not geographically part of Europe? Thanks.

It's been answered a couple of times previously !!

Up until recently, it has been the stated political intent of most of Israel's neighbours to work towards the destruction of the country and the removal of its residents from that region. Whilst most of their neighbours have changed this over the years (though I'm not sure if Syria has) there is still a great deal of anti-Israeli feeling amongst Arab governments in particular, and their neighbours in general. If you can't see how that would then translate into problems when playing those teams at sport, then I'd suggest thinking a wee bit harder about it all..... :)

[Closed Account 2]

Its illegal for Iranian citizens to face Israeli citizens at sport. Hence the scene at the Olympics, and more recently V.Hashimain's (Iranian forward at Bayern Munich) decision to pull out of the Bayern squad that travelled to play Maccabi Tel Aviv. Prior to 1979 Israeli club teams used to be in the Asian Champions League (a few of them won it in the 70s). When they moved to UEFA, they considered joining the African FA but at the time Egypt voiced strong opposition.

I agree with you about Turkey though, in terms of land mass and location of population it is far more in Asia than in Europe. Also its history vis-a-vis its European neighbours is very bad. Still if its getting into the EU there is no chance whatsoever of it leaving UEFA.

[dcfcsteve]

Its illegal for Iranian citizens to face Israeli citizens at sport. Hence the scene at the Olympics, and more recently V.Hashimain's (Iranian forward at Bayern Munich) decision to pull out of the Bayern squad that travelled to play Maccabi Tel Aviv. Prior to 1979 Israeli club teams used to be in the Asian Champions League (a few of them won it in the 70s). When they moved to UEFA, they considered joining the African FA but at the time Egypt voiced strong opposition.

I agree with you about Turkey though, in terms of land mass and location of population it is far more in Asia than in Europe. Also its history vis-a-vis its European neighbours is very bad. Still if its getting into the EU there is no chance whatsoever of it leaving UEFA.

For the numerous poepl on here who've been questioning Turkeys credentials for claiming 'European' status, a wee look at a map mightened go astray.

The entire island of Cyprus is more geographically southern than ANY part of Turkey is, and Cyprus is also geographically further East than half of the land-mass of Turkey. Cyprus is even located further south than the northern parts of Syria and Iraq, for feck's sake ! Does that therefore make Cyprus less 'European' than Turkey....?

Meanwhile, on an East-west axis, Turkey is broadly on a parallel with Ukraine, Belarus and Estonia. As well as a large chunk of Turkey being further west than all of Cyprus, the country also extends further west than Moldova. Meanwhile, the overwhelming majority of Turkey lies further west than its neighbours in Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan. So where's the chorus of calls for those countries not to be considered part of UEFA/Europe ?

And aside from it's long-simmering relationship with Greece (no different than England v Ireland/Scotland, Germany v France etc) and it's admittedly shameful treatment of the Armenians at the start of this century (though I'm sure many on here would question whether Armenia was entitled to consider itself 'European') what other elements regarding Turkey's history vis-a-vis its European neighbours is "very bad" ? And which of those are worse than the history Germany, England, Spain, France, Italy, Serbia, Russia, Sweden, Portugal and Hungary have had with their neighbours ?

When people complain about Turkey not being entitled to describe itself as European, geography is often used. Yet the above shows that geographically Turkey has a stronger claim to being in Europe than many of its acceptedly European neighbours. The reality is that geography is often used as an excuse here in place of other reasons - primarily religious and cultural - against Turkish credentials to be 'European'.

[Colbert Report]

Israel is not part of the continent of Europe. It is part of the continent of Asia, and should play in the Asian qualifying group.

What would happen if Israel were to actually qualify for the World Cup? It would be ruined because the other Asian teams would refuse to play against them.

[Green Tribe]

Indeed, however i cannot think of many of the objecting countries who are good enough to be in the world cup .. they are improving though and eventually they may meet, knowing fifa, they will be sure that they don't clash with each other. But yes, Iran could have qualified (02)had they beat us and that would have been a cracker if israel were also in it. :rolleyes: