Scientology,Religion or cult?

[the 12 th man]

They've recently opened a big "Church" in Firhouse in Dublin and are actively recruiting in the area.

On all evidence I've seen this is a dangerous cult that if they get into you can cost you a lot if not all your money achieving the various steps up their "Bridge" to a better place.

Anybody any opinions?

[KrisLetang]

This is a great subject. Have you read "Going Clear" by Lawrence Wright? (2013)? Or seen any of Leah Remini's A&E show about it? I would check out Mike Rinder's twitter feed too. He was a real bad guy who seems out to redeem himself. His kids and ex wife are still in. They did an episode where he sits down with 3 reporters whose lives he tried to ruin while he was the Scientology enforcer. For may many years. 2 forgive him, it seems like 1 has a hard time BC his family and kids were threatened.

What they say about L Ron Hubbard, that he was a Navy Captain who sailed the 7 seas and he did this and that, almost none of it is true, or it is taken completely out of context. He was a prolific writer who sold a ton of science fiction books, no question. It's just amazing people could see it as religion. As if Star Trek: The Next Generation became a religion.

The video of Tom Cruise saluting that nut Miscavige who runs things now.....Leah had Miscavige's father on her show in season one. It was a crazy episode. Miscavige has done ONE television interview in his entire life, with Ted Koppel on Nightline in 1992..It's on youtube....it was an unmitigated disaster and he never went on (any non Scientology) TV again. Can you imagine a religious leader hiding from doing interviews to promote or explain the religion? He's saving the world but he hasn't given permission to be interviewed in 25 years!!!

The reason it's not nice to call people involved at the base level "idiots" or the like is because of people like Paul Haggis. (The director.) He's a talented guy who got sucked in and nearly lost everything. He was going through a rough time. He wanted to believe. His writings about it are fantastic. He was kinda the first major guy to leave and talk about what goes on. Leah has definitely been the spark plug recently.

The IRS got tired of fighting lawsuits from them and finally gave in. Years later, Scientology paid Bill Clinton to go to Germany and lobby Merkel to allow Scientology to be legal in Germany. Terrible terrible thing he did. A lot of people don't know that. There's actually already a thread about it on here I think. This is one of my favorite topics over the years to read about. Again, season one of Leah's show blew my mind. She cries buckets of tears. She's funny too.

[KrisLetang]

This is Ron Miscavige, the father of David Miscavige.

https://twitter.com/MiscavigeRon

[osarusan]

Is there any difference? I don't think so.

Religions are just cults that managed to go mainstream and really hit paydirt.

Scientology is just joining the party at a time when everybody can document and share information about the blatant money-grabbing.

[the 12 th man]

Mike Rinder an interesting character alright,he still believes in the basic tenets of Scientology and has joined a break away group "Independant Scientologists" IIRC who abide by the General rules but not the hard sell and money end of it.

I've seen a few interviews with Founder L Ron Hubbard and frankly he comes across as a very intelligent but totally insane man (If that's possible) and I think David Miscavige is a more devious and dangerous character altogether who has that glazed over look of a man who is totally fixated.

Good interview on youtube between Louis Theroux and Joe Rogan about Theroux's attempt to get to the bottom of it.

[the 12 th man]

Is there any difference? I don't think so.

Religions are just cults that managed to go mainstream and really hit paydirt.

Scientology is just joining the party at a time when everybody can document and share information about the blatant money-grabbing.

I think cults differ in the way they treat people who leave as they seem to have a serious problem when someone departs,if you join the Sea Organisation (Scientology branch based on a flotilla of big ships) you sign a billion year contract which covers all your after life for a while....worse than Hotel California..

PS haven'r read going Clear yet but have seen a lot of documentaries and expose progs about Scientology.

I think Chris Shelton speaks a lot of sense as an ex member.

[KrisLetang]

I'm pretty sure there is only one ship left, the Freewinds. They also make any woman member of Sea Org get an abortion if she gets preggers as many many ex members have attested to, including several on Leah's show.

[osarusan]

I think cults differ in the way they treat people who leave as they seem to have a serious problem when someone departs

Christianity wasn't averse to imprisoning apostates in the past, and even executing them if you go back far enough, which some branches of Islam still advocate even today.

Perhaps, if and when Scientology manages to make its racket more mainstream, it will see the wisdom of (and be able to afford) a more benign approach to those who leave it.

[the 12 th man]

I'm pretty sure there is only one ship left, the Freewinds. They also make any woman member of Sea Org get an abortion if she gets preggers as many many ex members have attested to, including several on Leah's show.

Have you seen any of the Chris Shelton shorts on youtube,very level headed guy,I can't believe functioning intelligent adults get involved in this...

[the 12 th man]

Christianity wasn't averse to imprisoning apostates in the past, and even executing them if you go back far enough, which some branches of Islam still advocate.

Don't want to get involved in a race to the bottom type conversation,suffice to say we are talking about a "religon" which was invented by a failed ex Science Fiction writer who was expelled from several Countries over the years.

To attain the "Clear" status in their mind that all Scientologist aim for you have to pay for a step by step stage lessons which is in the tens of thousands of dollars/euro(for the wealthy it can be much more as they encourage donations as well as collecting fees for the lessons which they call Auditing).

[The Fly]

Cult. Duh!

[DannyInvincible]

Sect?

[osarusan]

Don't want to get involved in a race to the bottom type conversation,suffice to say we are talking about a "religon" which was invented by a failed ex Science Fiction writer who was expelled from several Countries over the years.

Mormonism was invented by a man who said that special holy stones helped give him (and only him) the ability to translate tablets of gold which were written in a mysterious Egyptian language that he discovered buried in a hill in New York after an angel showed him the location.

And the figurehead of Christianity is a man who probably never even physically existed, and if he did, was conceived immaculately and rose from the dead.

Adherents of such religions (and any religion really) are in glass houses when it comes to questioning the origins of other religions.

One of Richard Dawkins' books has a good piece in it in which a Catholic priest is listening to a description of the beliefs and rituals of some tribal religion (African or South American maybe, I can't remember), and after listening, he says, without any irony, something along the lines of 'how could anybody believe such mumbo jumbo'.

[the 12 th man]

I've no doubt that there's numerous similarities between the religions around the world that each one conveniently tailors to fit their beliefs.

Think we are getting off the subject though,it will be interesting to see what traction the movement gets here but they are going all out with open days,coffee mornings,concerts etc.

Anybody ever been inside a Scientology Church?,I keep saying I'm going to venture in to have a look.

[bennocelt]

I will start worrying about Scientology when they start dumping dead babies down septic tanks, otherwise i dont care. As mentioned previously, all religions are cults, just some are more popular than others. I'd throw in politics as a cult too, how else can people like Lowry get elected?

[KrisLetang]

And the figurehead of Christianity is a man who probably never even physically existed, and if he did, was conceived immaculately and rose from the dead.


I thought the Romans kept pretty good records and it is generally accepted by parties religious and non, academic, etc, that he was absolutely alive. He was a relatively "famous" person for the time I thought. Is that incorrect?

And how can you exist if you don't physically exist? Don't most people know the difference between Frank Sinatra and Winnie the Pooh?

[the 12 th man]

Cult. Duh!

The original question is in essence rhetorical...

[DannyInvincible]

One of Richard Dawkins' books has a good piece in it in which a Catholic priest is listening to a description of the beliefs and rituals of some tribal religion (African or South American maybe, I can't remember), and after listening, he says, without any irony, something along the lines of 'how could anybody believe such mumbo jumbo'.

An amusing anecdote. Mind you, Dawkins can be just as sneering of those who "believe such mumbo jumbo" as that priest. Nevertheless, he isn't the worst of the dubious crew who've been tagged the "New Atheists" and I have a bit more time for him than the likes of, say, Richard Harris (who I just find downright objectionable), but I thought this piece on their general perspective, which appears to neglect the material foundations of religious belief, was excellent: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/30/we-can-save-atheism-from-the-new-atheists


As early as 1842, Marx dismissed those who trumpeted their disbelief to children as “assuring everyone who is ready to listen to them that they are not afraid of the bogeyman”. For him, intellectual disproofs of God were trivial; what mattered was building a world that didn’t give rise to mystification of any kind. That is, if you investigate the material basis of religious belief, you immediately confront a phenomenon that operates on many different levels. In particular circumstances and particular settings a faith may function as a guide to morality, or an aesthetic, or a social network, or a collection of cultural practices, or a political identity, or a historical tradition, or some combination of any or all of those things.

You don’t have to be a believer to see that religion genuinely offers something to its adherents (often when nothing else is available) and that what it provides is neither inconsequential nor silly. By contrast, the New Atheists engage with religion purely as a set of ideas, a kind of cosmic rulebook for believers. On that basis, it’s easy to point out inconsistencies or contradictions in the various holy texts and mock the faithful for their gullibility.

But what happens then? You’re left with no explanation for their devotion other than a susceptibility to fraud. To borrow Dawkins’ title, if God is nothing but an intellectual delusion then the billions of believers are, well, deluded; a collection of feeble saps in need of enlightenment from their intellectual superiors. That’s the basis for the dickishness that so many people now associate from the New Atheism, a movement too often exemplified by privileged know-it-alls telling the poor that they’re idiots. But that’s only part of it. For, of course, the privileged know-it-alls are usually white and those they lampoon the most are invariably Muslim.

[tricky_colour]

They've recently opened a big "Church" in Firhouse in Dublin and are actively recruiting in the area.

On all evidence I've seen this is a dangerous cult that if they get into you can cost you a lot if not all your money achieving the various steps up their "Bridge" to a better place.

Anybody any opinions?


Yes if you don't like it don't sign up.

[tricky_colour]

Didn't do Tom Criuse any harm helped him over come dyslexia.

[The Fly]

The original question is in essence rhetorical...

You'd wonder from the replies though.

[The Fly]

An amusing anecdote. Mind you, Dawkins can be just as sneering of those who "believe such mumbo jumbo" as that priest. Nevertheless, he isn't the worst of the dubious crew who've been tagged the "New Atheists" and I have a bit more time for him than the likes of, say, Richard Harris (who I just find downright objectionable),

I prefer the term 'Born-again Atheists'.

[pineapple stu]

An amusing anecdote. Mind you, Dawkins can be just as sneering of those who "believe such mumbo jumbo" as that priest.
Doesn't that entirely miss the point of the anecdote though?

Priest sneers at mumbo-jumbo; goes off and says mass (arguably a parallel event) The point is the inherent irony in the priest's statement.

Dawkins sneers at mumbo-jumbo; goes off and - what's his equivalent? Where's the irony?

[DannyInvincible]

Doesn't that entirely miss the point of the anecdote though?

Priest sneers at mumbo-jumbo; goes off and says mass (arguably a parallel event) The point is the inherent irony in the priest's statement.

Dawkins sneers at mumbo-jumbo; goes off and - what's his equivalent? Where's the irony?

The irony is why I found the anecdote amusing. I was just making an additional irony-free point then about the superiority complex of Dawkins and the "New Atheists", which tends to grate with me as an agnostic atheist.

[Mr A]

At the top of every cult there's someone who knows it's a scam.

In religions they're already dead.

Suspect scientology is still in the former camp.

[osarusan]

At the top of every cult there's someone who knows it's a scam.

In religions they're already dead.

Very very kind to religions to suggest that the Joel Osteens or Creflo Dollars of this world are not knowingly scamming their audience.

[the 12 th man]

They have a "Free Funfair" in the grounds of the "Church" with a few kids amusements running for a month to try and get some punters in the door,apparently local rival attractions not too happy about it.