FAI running the league.

[Lim till i die]

The contract is up at the end of the season isn't it??

And the PCA rattling around the place.

What happens with solidarity money an all that if there's a breakaway??

Who's nervous??

Discuss the issues.

[EatYerGreens]

Not nervous at all.

Delaney has set Irish football up as his personal fiefdom, with him in the big gold throne watching everyone pay tribute to him. He's now gone on to try to do the same in European football - probably aspiring to be the new Sepp Blatter some day.

The only thing worse than the FAI running the league is the clubs doing it themselves. Have proven themselves time and again to be more interested in in-fighting and narrow gains than in working together to improve things. For me it should be either the FAI running the league, or an external body doing it with a view to marketing it properly etc to get a return for themselves. I wouldn't normally advocate an approach like that, but I can't see anyone else getting their finger out to do a proper promotion job on Irish football otherwise.

[outspoken]

An external body is the only way forward. Let them secure their own sponsorship and TV deals and get people passionate about the league involved in running it

[pineapple stu]

What happens with solidarity money an all that if there's a breakaway??
It goes towards staving off bankruptcy at Galway, Harps, Sligo, Pat's, Bray et al?

The PCA and the FAI are a perfect cocktail of self-interest and no interest, both idiotically playing off each other and thinking they're really smart doing it, while Ireland get thumped by Denmark to miss out on more millions.

[disgruntled]

At this moment in time the PCA are the only game in town.
However I would see them representing every league club not just those in the Premier division.
This may happen soon I hope.
The FAI have no interest other than having to have a national league with promotion & relegation.
The PCA started off with some clubs going on solo runs but all is quiet at the moment which may be a good sign that at last the penny has dropped.

We've had the clubs representing themselves under the League of Ireland since the beginning of time & which failed miserably.
We now have the clubs being represented under the FAI which again has failed miserably.
Its time for all the clubs to be represented by an organisation like the PCA where clubs can have their say but decisions are taken for the overall good of all the clubs & not just the chosen few.
The league is only as strong as its weakest member & the clubs have proved over time that they can not govern themselves.
There's no going back to the failed policies of the past.

[ccfcman]

An external body is the only way forward. Let them secure their own sponsorship and TV deals and get people passionate about the league involved in running it

With the TV deals in particular I cannot understand how BEIN or Star Sports haven't picked this up as yet. My understanding is that in order to show national team matches RTÉ have to then show a portion of LOI games, putting themselves, Eir and the Facebook streams aside, selling the LOI to a crowd like BEIN (dubious funding aside) we could at least attempt to market the LOI further afield. It wouldn't affect Irish audience figures either given for the most part it isn't available to the vast majority of Irish satellite customers. Anyone using Kodi would be ahead of that curve long ago regardless.

A quick scan of http://bein.net/en/tv-guide/ shows the absolute crap they are transmitting at any given time. Even if it is a small deal with only minor revenues at least they could supply decent cameras for proper highlights packages, sold back to RTÉ without the need to do it themselves. But this is the FAI and unless Sepp blatter is bribing our silence or Denis O'Brien gives the okay. they're happy to leave the domestic game rot away*.


*except if Dundalk or Cork City do well in Europe.


Edit: Is there cause to believe the title of the thread containts a misspelling? My understanding is there are only 2 n's in ruining ;)

[sbgawa]

I'm not the biggest fan of the FAI but if you look at the under 13's 15's 17's 19's they are at least putting in place a production line of talent for the LOI teams and having the best kids associated with the LOI is good.
In the Rovers academy the 10 11 and 12 year olds dream of playing for Rovers not Man U.
On the tv thing I think we forget the reason RTE don't want to show the games is because no one wants to watch them (in relative terms), its not like they just don't fill the airwaves with LOI out of spite.

[ArFella]

I'm not the biggest fan of the FAI but if you look at the under 13's 15's 17's 19's they are at least putting in place a production line of talent for the LOI teams and having the best kids associated with the LOI is good.
In the Rovers academy the 10 11 and 12 year olds dream of playing for Rovers not Man U.
On the tv thing I think we forget the reason RTE don't want to show the games is because no one wants to watch them (in relative terms), its not like they just don't fill the airwaves with LOI out of spite.

I have to agree with sbgawa, I love to bash the FAI for being an incompetent group of self-fellating money hungry p****s with little to no interest in the LOI, but at least with the underage system they are trying (or appearing to try) to future-proof the security of the teams in the LOI.

[redobit]

I have to agree with sbgawa, I love to bash the FAI for being an incompetent group of self-fellating money hungry p****s with little to no interest in the LOI, but at least with the underage system they are trying (or appearing to try) to future-proof the security of the teams in the LOI.

Agree with ya about FAI puting the underage system in place. The other side to that is maybe 80 to 100k in running costs per year isin't exacty helping a lot of clubs that are living hand to mouth as it is already.

[El-Pietro]

But if spent wisely that 80-100k should have long term benefits for those clubs and the country as a whole. Forcing clubs to invest in facilities or youth is the one thing we should be praising the FAI for. An extra 80k a year into the pockets of the current players does nothing for football in this country.

[pineapple stu]

Many clubs don't have 80-100k to spend in the first place.

A 3k/week budget could win the First Division for example.

[ArFella]

But if spent wisely that 80-100k should have long term benefits for those clubs and the country as a whole. Forcing clubs to invest in facilities or youth is the one thing we should be praising the FAI for. An extra 80k a year into the pockets of the current players does nothing for football in this country.

Excellent point El-P, you can't really criticise the FAI for not throwing money at the clubs for nothing as past behaviour & spending has shown that most will **** it away in a couple of years, but direct investment into club infrastructure is what's required to make any sort of a lasting difference. One point I would make (that has been talked about for donkeys years) is that the prize money in the LoI is disgraceful, clubs aren't remunerated for their efforts on/off the field, they all put in a tremendous amount of work just to keep their clubs running and at the end of the season they get an amount of money that probably wouldn't sustain them for more than a couple of weeks. The FAI should raise the prize money of the league but have restrictions on how much of it must be spent on youth teams/facilities/youth coaching etc. This give the clubs a leg up without giving them the opportunity to go out and waste it all on unsustainable contracts and the like. It'll probably never happy with Delaney in charge, but it's nice to dream.

[Mr A]

But if spent wisely that 80-100k should have long term benefits for those clubs and the country as a whole.

80-100k may not be much to Cork, but for clubs near the bottom of the league it is absolutely massive, potentially crippling. I agree with the changes that have been made in bringing in these teams, but yet again the question arises of how to make the first division viable for clubs to enter and survive in.

[gormacha]

I have a vague recollection that there is either a UEFA or FIFA regulation that stipulates that the elite league of a jurisdiction has to be governed by the body that is affiliated to UEFA/FIFA, so the FAI *have* to run the league?

It is entirely possible I have misremembered that. It wouldn't be the first time, and won't be the last.

Anyone?

[mcgonigle]

The underage leagues are great and should be a real game changer in years to come but I think we need to be looking beyond U19's. Currently most clubs have to release nearly all those who are not eligible for the 19s and still not ready for senior football. There is a lot of potential being lost. I know the flip side is that the introduction of another age group (21s, 23s etc.) would be an additional cost to clubs, I just think there is going to be a big build up of players getting dumped from clubs which may have a knock-on effect to the reputation of the other age groups.

[nigel-harps1954]

13's should be scrapped for an under-23 league.

[Philosophizer]

I think they're dead right to go ahead with the u13s league. We've been in desperate need of proper nationwide youth structures for decades and now we're finally getting them.

Once the underage stuff is all in place then the next step is to sort out the gap between u19s and seniors. I think an u23 league would be perfect, with the option to maybe play 2/3 overage lads, similar to the u23 league in England.

[sbgawa]

It matters in Dublin that the 13's start you need to get the best players into the LOI clubs from 12 years old before they get scooped up by the slavetraders in Kevins and Joeys

[legendz]

80-100k may not be much to Cork, but for clubs near the bottom of the league it is absolutely massive, potentially crippling. I agree with the changes that have been made in bringing in these teams, but yet again the question arises of how to make the first division viable for clubs to enter and survive in.The answer probably an intermediary league for the likes of Kerry, Monaghan-Cavan and Mayo to enter after U19s. LoI clubs should be allowed enter U23's at that level. The winner, or highest placed first team club, of the intermediary league should be allowed playoff against the bottom team from the First Division.


The underage leagues are great and should be a real game changer in years to come but I think we need to be looking beyond U19's. Currently most clubs have to release nearly all those who are not eligible for the 19s and still not ready for senior football. There is a lot of potential being lost. I know the flip side is that the introduction of another age group (21s, 23s etc.) would be an additional cost to clubs, I just think there is going to be a big build up of players getting dumped from clubs which may have a knock-on effect to the reputation of the other age groups.My understanding from some reports emanating from the PCA is that a number of clubs do want a team between U19s and senior level. The answer again is something not too dissimilar to the defunct A Championship but a different approach is required.

I think the U19 league initally started out as with a national division above a second tier split north and shout. I think both tiers merged after a year or two. Ruud Dokter said they had to find what suited the country best. A model from a different country wasn't necessarily going to suit Ireland.

Not all LoI clubs will want an U23/reserve team. No club should be forced to enter at such a level, just like the U23s in England where I think only 15 of the 20 top flight clubs have an U23 team.

5 U23 teams and 3 first teams could play 21 games over 3 series.


13's should be scrapped for an under-23 league.
Not at all. Once the U13 league is in place, clubs should be in a better position to gauge if they can finance an U23/reserve team. If Kerry, Mayo and Monaghan-Cavan are on board, again only about 5 U23/reserve teams from the LoI will be required to get the league up and running. It's probably about 3 or 4 years down the road at the moment from being a possibility.


I think they're dead right to go ahead with the u13s league. We've been in desperate need of proper nationwide youth structures for decades and now we're finally getting them.

Once the underage stuff is all in place then the next step is to sort out the gap between u19s and seniors. I think an u23 league would be perfect, with the option to maybe play 2/3 overage lads, similar to the u23 league in England.
Yeah, I think you are spot on there. LoI clubs possibly should be permitted 3 overage lads while first teams like Mayo or Kerry have no age limit.


It matters in Dublin that the 13's start you need to get the best players into the LOI clubs from 12 years old before they get scooped up by the slavetraders in Kevins and Joeys
... and the FAI to be fair have been clear from the off about their intent for leagues from U13, U15, U17 and U19. It's one of the rare times that the FAI has set out some sort off roadmap.

I'd like to see them set out a road map for a that gap from the U19s to senior. At the same time though clubs might panic and get into a flap about that when the U13 league has yet to be integrated.

When the U13 league is up and running for a full season, it'll be the time to gauge the merits of an intermediary league.

[nigel-harps1954]

There's nothing to stop clubs from having players in from 12 years of age for their under-15 squad if they're that keen to keep them away from the likes of Joeys and Kevins, but it's utterly ridiculous that we have these great underage structures coming in and expecting players to step up from under-19s to senior once they get that far. Clubs may as well be burning money as spending on players that'll have to leave the club because they're not ready for the first team yet.

We should be looking at an under-23 league and then, and only then, if clubs can spare the extra cash, bring in the under-13 league.

[ThirdManRun]

I'm not sure that the gap between U19 and First Team will be bridged. While it may see like that FAI are instilling a system to help League of Ireland clubs produce players, its more down to the centralisation of elite players to have them face each other at an earlier age (which is brilliant), in order to help players compete at international level.

Is a player going to make international standard beyond U19 if they haven't played first team by the age of 19? Unlikely. Even the LOI players recently called into the U19 Qualifying Campaign all had first team exposure at their clubs (O'Hora - Bohs, Farrugia - UCD)

[pineapple stu]

The average age of a First Division team is 23. An u23 team would be utterly redundant for half the league

[Philosophizer]

The average age of a First Division team is 23. An u23 team would be utterly redundant for half the league

Is it really that young??

If so, fair point.

[disgruntled]

The average age of a First Division team is 23. An u23 team would be utterly redundant for half the league

What about the other half of the league ?
There are a lot of players around when finished with the Under 19's but are not good enough for Senior grade who have nowhere to play except go back to junior.
Given some experience these players might be able to move up to the senior squads.
As has been said elsewhere clubs shouldn't be made enter an Under 23 team if they don't wish or can't afford it but we have to bridge the gap from Under 19 to Senior in some way.

[Philosophizer]

Could make it mandatory for PREM div and optional for 1st div.

[nigel-harps1954]

The average age of a First Division team is 23. An u23 team would be utterly redundant for half the league

That is incredibly far from the point.

The average age of Harps starting team last season was in around 24, but there were still about 10 players within the squad seeing no game time, and another 6 or 7 players from last seasons under-19 squad that had to be released as there was no football for them.

We've also had to bring in an Ulster Senior League team for players who didn't see game time for their under-17 or under-19 side at any given weekend, and they would probably benefit from an under-23 league too over an intermediate league.

This is before we even get into players returning from injury who may benefit from gaining match fitness in an under-23 squad the same as English teams, allowing for three overage players in the match day squad.

[WoodquayBoy]

Could make it mandatory for PREM div and optional for 1st div.
That would never work. Take this season and next: ourselves, Harps and Drogheda would probably look to fold the u23 set-up as it’s not mandatory and cash could go elsewhere. Waterford would have to scramble together an u23 set-up. The folllowing season, it would be Cobh (my tip for First Div title in 2018) that would have to put together an u23 squad. Either every club has one or not, can’t have a Premier/First split

[legendz]

There's nothing to stop clubs from having players in from 12 years of age for their under-15 squad if they're that keen to keep them away from the likes of Joeys and Kevins, but it's utterly ridiculous that we have these great underage structures coming in and expecting players to step up from under-19s to senior once they get that far. Clubs may as well be burning money as spending on players that'll have to leave the club because they're not ready for the first team yet.

We should be looking at an under-23 league and then, and only then, if clubs can spare the extra cash, bring in the under-13 league.Well many clubs wanted the plug pulled on the old A Championship. Then some in their wisdom started complaining afterwards!!


The average age of a First Division team is 23. An u23 team would be utterly redundant for half the leagueFor those clubs, yes, that probably is the case. Possibly only about 5 Premier clubs have to get on board for it to be a viable league. I think at least 3 First Division clubs optionally took part in the defunct A Championship.


Could make it mandatory for PREM div and optional for 1st div.
No, not at all. They went down that road before with the A Championship. Pat's who had some influence for a while were chief cheerleaders in getting the plug pulled. Some Premier clubs treated it with contempt. They were looking for any players to fill up a team and make up a fixture.

After U19s, it's got to be clubs own decision if they want to be involved in an intermediary league or not. It will give players the choice as well of sticking with the club or going on loan in the First Division.

[pineapple stu]

That is incredibly far from the point.
It really isn't.

UCD for example would have literally no players for an u23 team. Others too - Wexford, Cabo, etc.

I made up the bit about the average age of the First Division, but I'd say it's not far off. It's a very young division because it's a shambles. Once players start working (about 21/22), they either are earning a few quid playing LoI or they've dropped down to LSL or equivalent where they don't have to give up half their week training to travel half way across the country to sit on the bench.

An u23 league would hold no interest for many First Division clubs and players, and there'd be scratches all over the shop. (The Premier sides can knock themselves out if they want, but it'd be a small league)

The reason the Premiership have one is because the standard is so high that youth players on average break into a first team at the age of 21/22, so the extra league is needed for extra development

[ForzaForth]

Would agree with PineappleStu. Last year, Wexford would have had about half the team aged 20 or under depending on the players selected with most of the subs also twenty or under. You couldn't see any prospect of involvement in an U23 league.

[legendz]

Would agree with PineappleStu. Last year, Wexford would have had about half the team aged 20 or under depending on the players selected with most of the subs also twenty or under. You couldn't see any prospect of involvement in an U23 league.
You are lunging in with a two footed challenge when no one is suggesting a mandatory U23 league. Once the U13 league is fully integrated, consideration should, possibly will, be given for an intermediary league between U19s and senior. It should be completely optional. Possibly only a quarter of LoI clubs would be in a position to enter along with non-LoI entities already integrated through the youth leagues.

[sbgawa]

Clarke doona Bolger o Connor all teenagers playing for rovers if you are good enough your old enough at 19

[Philosophizer]

Clarke doona Bolger o Connor all teenagers playing for rovers if you are good enough your old enough at 19

That's also a very fair point. The outstanding u19 guys like those mentioned above and Sule and Hoare and Jamie McGrath can make the jump without much difficulty.
We're probably still losing a few who could have become good enough with a few years of u23 football to bridge the gap, but if it takes those guys an extra few yrs of u23 football to make the transition they're probably not outstanding players.
No doubt a few guys are falling through the gap but at least there is a pathway now for the most talented guys to get through. And really, those are the guys that the FAI cares about the most because many of them can go on to play for the national team.

[Charlie Darwin]

I have a vague recollection that there is either a UEFA or FIFA regulation that stipulates that the elite league of a jurisdiction has to be governed by the body that is affiliated to UEFA/FIFA, so the FAI *have* to run the league?

It is entirely possible I have misremembered that. It wouldn't be the first time, and won't be the last.

Anyone?
The Premier League in England is not run by the FA. All they need is to be sanctioned by the association, which even as petty as they are I can't see the FAI denying.


I made up the bit about the average age of the First Division, but I'd say it's not far off.
I'd say you're probably overestimating a bit. Even with clubs like Longford and Waterford who had older players, they still had a lot of teenagers in there. Cabo, Cobh and UCD would be struggling to field a team breaking an average age of 20 I'd say.

[outspoken]

The Premier League in England is not run by the FA. All they need is to be sanctioned by the association, which even as petty as they are I can't see the FAI denying.


I'd say you're probably overestimating a bit. Even with clubs like Longford and Waterford who had older players, they still had a lot of teenagers in there. Cabo, Cobh and UCD would be struggling to field a team breaking an average age of 20 I'd say.

We would have had 3 teenagers in our team towards the end of last season even after that tho average age probably wasn’t much more than 24 with the likes of Kevin o’connor And Davy O’Sullivan the exception

[legendz]

UCD would be struggling to field a team breaking an average age of 20 I'd say.I'd have pencilled UCD in if an Intermediary-U23 league is formed in the next 3 years or so. They competed well in the defunct A Championship. They won 2 titles and were runners-up in another.

Cork, Dundalk, Shamrock Rovers and Limerick are 4 others I would pencil in the likely category. There have been comments from Cork and Dundalk officials in recent years regards a reserve side. Shamrock Rovers had a B team for a year in the First Division. Limerick participated in the A Championship though they had no obligation to do so when they were in the First Division.

As I've said in a previous post, the league wouldn't need big numbers. 8 teams playing over 3 series would have 21 games a season. The Premier League 2 in England consists of two divisions of 12 playing 22 games.

[sadloserkid]

I'm very much open to correction but I don't think Limerick would be looking to take on any optional teams at this stage. We're finding out how much it costs to stay competitive in the Premier the last few seasons and there's enough levels requiring a team now that I don't think the extra cost would outweigh any benefits for us. In practical terms we make a habit of picking up Cork's fringe players anyway, the trickle down of players isn't the worst thing where we are.

[Mr A]

I can see the logic in extending the leagues downwards- get the top players playing against each other and with better coaching from as early an age as possible. In large parts of the country this wasn't happening enough, players were staying with local clubs that might not have the greatest coaches or opportunity to really stretch them. In other parts you had the schoolboy superpowers that hoovered up players and had no outlet at the top end at all- the main objective being to send players across the water. In terms of football overall in the country, it's a good thing and I'm certainly for it.

As for an under 23 league.. more expense for clubs but there are late bloomers that U19 is a bit early for. But ultimately every youth system will see the majority of players not make it. It's harsh but it's reality. If you're getting one player into your first team every year that's pretty good. Can see the argument for an older age group but unless there is more support for clubs it's probably a non runner.

[Mr_Parker]

I have a vague recollection that there is either a UEFA or FIFA regulation that stipulates that the elite league of a jurisdiction has to be governed by the body that is affiliated to UEFA/FIFA, so the FAI *have* to run the league?

It is entirely possible I have misremembered that. It wouldn't be the first time, and won't be the last.

Anyone?

Your memory is not playing tricks. I am not sure it is a 'must', but at the very least UEFA frown on such. Hence one of the reasons the League in the North split from the IFA, having been previously incorporated with it for a number of years.

And to help answer a previous question, the clubs in the Irish League still receive their Solidarity payment.

Overall, it was like a breath of fresh air splitting from the IFA. While not perfect, it certainly has seen many improvements.

[pineapple stu]

As for an under 23 league.. more expense for clubs but there are late bloomers that U19 is a bit early for. But ultimately every youth system will see the majority of players not make it. It's harsh but it's reality. If you're getting one player into your first team every year that's pretty good. Can see the argument for an older age group but unless there is more support for clubs it's probably a non runner.
Many clubs - including Harps I think? - have a reserve team in the local leagues which covers this. Ditto Cork (?), Rovers, UCD, Derry and maybe others.

Clubs that don't already operate a team in the LSL/MSL surely wouldn't have the interest in a 23s league. And clubs that do operate such a team would get more out of it than a half-arsed national 23s league.

Honestly not seeing any reason for it

[Charlie Darwin]

Many clubs - including Harps I think? - have a reserve team in the local leagues which covers this. Ditto Cork (?), Rovers, UCD, Derry and maybe others.

Clubs that don't already operate a team in the LSL/MSL surely wouldn't have the interest in a 23s league. And clubs that do operate such a team would get more out of it than a half-arsed national 23s league.

Honestly not seeing any reason for it
Rovers don't have an LSL team. Besides, players wouldn't be allowed to be registered for both teams at the same time so it wouldn't really function like a reserve team.

[Mr A]

We have an Ulster Senior League team but their season is a winter one which is an issue.

[nigel-harps1954]

Cork don't have a reserve team either.

[bluemovie]

Surely I wasn't the only one whose subconscious misread the thread title as "FAI ruining the league"?

[sbgawa]

Jeez we struggled to fill the bench for the last couple of games , reserve team..........that would be the under 19's

[pineapple stu]

The conflicting seasons is daft alright.

You can sign between the two teams in the transfer window; for late bloomers, that's fine. It regularly happens at UCD for example.

Didn't realise so many clubs had done away with their reserve team in the LSL or equivalent, but to me that's another indication that there's no need for a 23s league.

[El-Pietro]

We have tried on several occasions to enter a side into the MSL but they refuse to let us in.

[Lim till i die]

Lads when I started the thread I was hoping for lots of arguing between premier and first division fans.

Is there not a possibility with the FAI deal up that the PCA are considering a breakaway? Get a TV money pie for themselves?

Liscening out the window. The money launderers will flock back to our clubs. No one will know what anyone else is paying. Cash everywhere.

A return to the good old days basically.

On the u23 thing I can see the need for it but the need for u13s trump's it. What's actually needed is proper coaching at the clubs for the kiddiewinks but that's a discussion for another day.

Entering teams in local leagues is an unholy nuisance because of dual registration. Even when the A League was going it was a pain.

[legendz]

We have tried on several occasions to enter a side into the MSL but they refuse to let us in.
That was my understanding as well. I saw comments from Cork and Dundalk officials in recent years about the possible need for a reserve league.


On the u23 thing I can see the need for it but the need for u13s trump's it.
Definitely. The U13s has to be fully integrated for a full year first as per the roadmap. It's only after that that the clubs-PCA and FAI might explore the feasibility of some intermediary league.

[outspoken]

Cork don't have a reserve team either.

It’s called Sligo Rovers