Vieira - no longer a force?

[Karlos]

Now i'll state from the start that I'm not a fan of these matrix thingy's for judging players but many on foot.ie have quoted the opta stats to back up arguments on here and appear to live by them.

In February, the month where Patrick Vieria has lost all form and been 'dominated' and frightened by Roy Keane, if you are to believe THE SUN!, it's interesting to see how the stats tot up at the end of the month - acoording to Opta, he's been the best midfielder in the premiership last month. Wonder if the usual suspects will back the findings or turn their back on the Opta Index for good. :)

http://skysports.planetfootball.com/list.asp?hlid=259218&CPID=8&clid=&channel=Football_Home

[4tothefloor]

Patrick Viera is half the player he was 12 months ago, you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. He looks disillusioned to me, I think he'll leave in the summer if he gets his chance. There must be something in the air for central midfielders cos Steven Gerrard is gone the same way. There in body, but not in mind.......

[drinkfeckarse]

Neither player has become a bad player overnight. Just way off form at the moment which happens to every player. Both will hit the heights again. Not so long ago RMK was getting the same but now he's getting the plaudits again...and rightly so.

[Kingdom]

Given the fiasco over his transfer to Madrid I'm surprised Wenger didn't cash in when he got the chance. I haven't seen much of the Premiership but I do get to watch as much as I can and I do read all reports and to be fair he seems as if his heart just isn't in it.
Who knows Vieira to Madrid for 25m + Owen could be on. Especially with Reyes leaving in the Summer to Athletico Madrid with Fernando Torres joining Chelsea.

[eirebhoy]

Wonder if the usual suspects will back the findings or turn their back on the Opta Index for good.

With the exception of the Man U match, Arsenal were playing absolutely fantastic football for most of last month in the Prem. They were all over Newcastle and Given saved them from a trashing. A few Villa players said they it was the best team they'd played against all season. They slaughtered Palace 5-1. Vieira was by far and away their main central midfielder and was getting far more of the ball than anyone else. He also got a goal against United, a goal against Palace and an assist against Villa. I don't see anything strange about Vieira being the most effective premiership player of February.

[4tothefloor]

Who knows Vieira to Madrid for 25m + Owen could be on. Especially with Reyes leaving in the Summer to Athletico Madrid with Fernando Torres joining Chelsea.

You could equally say Gerrard to Madrid for £30m + Owen, which would probably suit Liverpool, Real, Gerrard and Owen perfectly. Baros is getting the boot from Anfield. Should make an interesting summer!

[Karlos]

Don't agree that Vieira is half the player of last year. As someone who has watched him regulary this season, his performances have been good. The big difference has been that his style of performance has been altered this year. Without the more defensive minded Gilberto, Vieira spent the the first half of the season occupying the defensive role while everyone ooh-ed and ahh-ed about Fabregas going forward (not to forget, that this would have been the role Madrid would have asked him to play and not the role that has earned him his deserved plaudits).

His performances have got increasingly better since the return of Edu and/or Flamini and that was eveident last night when he was in effect man marked but never shirked or shyed away from the ball.

Some say he hasn't hit the heights of last season, but then again neither has the team as a whole. It's a team issue not something's that down to one man's performance.

Last month in a struggling Arsenal team he has come out in the stats ahead of the likes of Keane, Lampard (who are playing in on-form teams). He's covering more ground than anyone, tackling more than anyone and giving his all. If that's the sign of a disillioned player, i'll have 11 please!! :D If nothing esle, the fact that the stats really prove, is that when the chips have been down, he has been a top quality performer for Arsenal.

While people sometimes use team results to define individual performances, I'll happily stay away from that. As someone watching him on a regular basis I do not see a marked difference in his performance levels (although his reponsibilities have most defiently changed).

The overall team performances at times have been neglected in favour of laying blame at the feet of high profile players ( the old 'Henry isn't a big game player' - 'Vieira's unsettled' campaign).

Any one who has watched Arsenal this season can see that the reason they lie where they do now is because of the overal defensive performance of team. As much as we like to think players can singlehandedly win games they don't and i long for the day when one player goes and wins a game without the help of his teamamtes! Sure they might score the vital goal or make a vital save but it's what happens in the other 89 minutes and 50 seconds plus stoppage time that really counts and makes a hero possible! ;)

[Karlos]

You could equally say Gerrard to Madrid for £30m + Owen, which would probably suit Liverpool, Real, Gerrard and Owen perfectly. Baros is getting the boot from Anfield. Should make an interesting summer!


I think 4tothefloor's suggestion is more likely or the other mooted one is Reyes to Madrid for Owen. Honestly can't see Patrick Vieria being sold to Real Madrid. That's not saying he couldn't leave the club but given he has been quoted as saying he wouldn't return to Italy due to racial abuse, he mightn't be all too amoured about going to the Bernabeu after the going's on in October and he was said time and time again that he will be at Arsenal for the opening of the new stadium provided we still want him.

[Macy]

I've never quoted opta stats - more bullshít americanisation of the game.

[Stuttgart88]

I think Gilberto's absence explains a lot of Vieira's loss of form. In fact rather than a loss of form, I'd say he's lost some influence, his ability to boss a game. I think he may also have lost some of his hunger. He looked tired at Euro 2004 and he's looked disinterested at times this year. I'd say he's a bit exasperated at the lack of quality behind him at times too.

A consistent criticism I've had of Vieira is that he scores too few goals and makes too few "killer" passes. A guy of his size should get more goals from corners, but as Strachan pointed out on TV last night, I honestly believe Arsenal don't practice set-pieces as they're inevitably brutal.

With a bit of a break and Gilberto returning I'd say we'll still see more of the dominant Vieira. People were writing Roy Keane off a few months ago and he's now as influential as he's ever been.

[Karlos]

I've never quoted opta stats - more bullshít americanisation of the game.


Macy, you weren't thinking you where one of the usual suspects for a minute there were you? :D I hold you in much higher esteem than that! :p

[eirebhoy]

I am one of those who think the Actim Index (http://actim.pa.press.net/top100.shtml) is fairly accurate in measuring a players effectiveness.

How accurate is the Actim Index?
The calculations are based on the four key factors that contribute to a player’s effectiveness and his ability to help his team win matches.

The formulae were devised through analysis of hundreds of games since the start of the Premiership in 1992 and have been statistically proven to measure a player’s effectiveness in winning matches.

How is the Actim Index calculated?

Complex mathematical formulae were devised to calculate the value of each player's contribution, match by match. In simple terms, the Actim Index comprises four calculations:
Calculation 1 - Assesses a player’s contribution to a winning team, based on points won by the team when he appeared.
Calculation 2 – Assesses a player’s performance in each game, by allocating points for actions that positively contribute to a winning performance such as shots, tackles, clearances and saves. It also takes points away from players for negative actions such as yellow/red cards and shots off target.
Calculation 3 – Allocates points based on time of the pitch.
Calculation 4 – Allocates points for goal scorers.

People are making it out that it is impossible to measure a players effectiveness. OK, its a bit difficult to measure how good a player is but its certainly not too impossible to measure how effective a player is.

Put it this way, I'd put my faith in the Actim any day over the FIFA rankings. I wouldn't trust their judgment on players that have only entered the premier league as they wouldn't know how the team performs with and without that player but players that have been playing in the league years I'd say have an accurate index.

I could be completely wrong but as I've said, every section of the media mention the FIFA rankings every month. It makes the main sports headline on the six one news for God's sake. :)

[Karlos]

[QUOTE=eirebhoy]I am one of those who think the Actim Index (http://actim.pa.press.net/top100.shtml) is fairly accurate in measuring a players effectiveness.

I do think that these matrix type things can have their benefits when measuring effectiveness as opposed to quality - what they don't always take into consideration are positional changes to players, playing with less men etc.. I don't take alot of them as gospel especially the FIFA rankings!

My problem with the Actim is that it appears to award points for mainly positive contributions to 'winning' teams. I'd argue that there are some very talented players making positive contributions to teams that aren't always grinding out results hence effecting their placing in the index.

[eirebhoy]

My problem with the Actim is that it appears to award points for mainly positive contributions to 'winning' teams. I'd argue that there are some very talented players making positive contributions to teams that aren't always grinding out results hence effecting their placing in the index.

Isn’t the Actim Index biased towards players who play for the top clubs?
what about players who play well for less successful teams?
The Actim Index aims to identify successful players who contribute to winning performances. However, rewards for team success are only part of the final rating. Players on losing teams can still score points in other areas. The view is that players deserve recognition for contributing to team success, but should still be able to score points if their team draws or loses. Jlloyd Samuel of Aston Villa and Kevin Nolan of Bolton appeared in the final top ten Actim Index for last season, despite playing for clubs outside the traditional elite.
At the moment Andy Jonhson and Wright-Phillips are in the top 10.

[4tothefloor]

Despite my location,I'm not an Ar*e.fan :o ....give me PV any day,ahead of RMK! ;) Apart from maybe one game in September........ :o

Do you have to drag Roy Keane into every bloody thread on this board?! You're infatuated with him Davros, it's scary :D

[Karlos]

At the moment Andy Jonhson and Wright-Phillips are in the top 10.

take that point but potentially someone like Jesper Gronkjaerfor example if was still at Chelsea and playing could amass huge points in the index on the back of winning performances and intermitant good displays and finish above someone like Wright-Phillips performing brilliant each week but not always winning. Sure he can gather points but potentially not as many as others resulting in a distorted result. That's my view really on most of these indexs - great at highlight some factors but overall I feel don't give a clear representation of ability.

[eirebhoy]

take that point but potentially someone like Jesper Gronkjaerfor example if was still at Chelsea and playing could amass huge points in the index on the back of winning performances and intermitant good displays and finish above someone like Wright-Phillips performing brilliant each week but not always winning. Sure he can gather points but potentially not as many as others resulting in a distorted result. That's my view really on most of these indexs - great at highlight some factors but overall I feel don't give a clear representation of ability.
At the end of the day, a player is going to be more effective if he has more of the ball and Gronkjaer would get more of the ball at Chelsea. BTW, its not supposed to measure a players ability anyway.

[caino]

Im not a arsenal fan before anyone jumps down on my back over this, Im actually a Burnley fan, and a very proud one at that. For years now people have always compared Viera to Roy Keane, and vica versa. I think they are both superb mifeielder and are in a different class to others midfielders in the premiership, But just because Viera has had a few bad games that doesnt mean he is a spent force or anything like that, Roy Keane is a different style of player, he just does the simple things and does them perfect, when Viera is more of a Eoropean style of player and likes to use more trickery and be more flambouyent about his play. Roy Keane probably gives out to himself if he has a bad game simply because his standards for himself and others around him are so high. Viera in my opinion does not live in the shadow of Roy Keane, because they are two different types of players that shoould not be continously compared to each other.

[Karlos]

At the end of the day, a player is going to be more effective if he has more of the ball and Gronkjaer would get more of the ball at Chelsea. BTW, its not supposed to measure a players ability anyway.

yep take that on board - it's more or less a scale of relative effectiveness from what I can make out. I think that these matrix coupled with obvious ability & talent could contribute to making an accurrate judgement on a player but imo not used as a stand alone benchmark of excellence.

thanks for the further explanation :)

[chippy79]

>> think Gilberto's absence explains a lot of Vieira's loss of form.>>>

You have just explained the reason with the above statement. Gilberto did all the nitty gritty midifled play (breaking up attacks, positioning was excellent in defence, clearing headers etc..). Pat has been alone this year in the middle. i mean arsenal play 2 central midifelders regardless of the opposition. Every team par cheslea/manc arrive at highbury to defend and play 5 across the middle. cesc/flamini are talents but too lightweight when outnumbered centrally. Watch Pat next time - he visably tires in the 2nd half - like in Munich, 1st half he was our best player.