The Guantanamo Guidebook

[Neish]

Any of ya see the Guantanamo Guidebook on CH4 tonight?

A program which documented.life for the detainees of the prision camp.
8 people volunteered to be subject to techniques and tactics used. 4 were against using such methods and 4 for such methods if it was required.
Only 4 of the volunteers survived the 48 hrs . Needless to say by the end all agreed that the methods weren't trustworthy as they were close to simply making up confession just to get out and they were only the 48 hrs,eally makes you think what it would be like for some of the detainees which are coming up on 4 years of imprisonment at Guantanamo

Methods included the volunteers being subject to:
-Sleep Deprivation
-Extreme tempetute change
-Refusal of toilet facilities
-Solitary Isolation
-Subjest to white noise
-Being stripped nake in front of other people(One of the biggest insults in the muslim world)
-several other methods which I can think of

I'm not saying that all detainees there are innocent, but can confessions etc of people really be trusted once but under such condations and torture

[pete]

Only saw a bit of the programme but saw the humiliation bits...

Guantanamo is clearly an illegal detention camp & just makes the US out to be hypocrits in their justice & liberty crap. Sure there are loads of Taliban members detained their & while may not agree with their principles they were just fighting a war in their own country. Sure they let al_Queda stay as guests but that hardly makes them terrorists.

Don't you just love the way America invents its own "Unlawful Combatants" language.

:rolleyes:

[anto eile]

saw it msyelf.shocking stuff.ive no sympathy for the americans anymore. theyve totally over-reacted to 11/9

[Éanna]

The Americans got a great deal of sympathy after sept. 11th. Of course theydidn't deserve an attack like that, even though it was the result of their behaviour for the past few decades. Their reaction has only made a bad situation worse, IMO they will reap what they are now sowing.

[Eire06]

The Americans got a great deal of sympathy after sept. 11th. Of course theydidn't deserve an attack like that, even though it was the result of their behaviour for the past few decades. Their reaction has only made a bad situation worse, IMO they will reap what they are now sowing.

Fot the first time Eanna I actually agree with you...
What was done to some of the detainees, by certain groups of soilders was disgraceful..
One of the humiliation methods was to force them to eat pork and drink alcohol, and to perform sexual acts on each other.. Was very upsetting to watch and hear about over the last few months.

It seems there is one set of rules for America and another set for the rest of the world and if you disagree with what they are saying your there enemy..

[Troy.McClure]

Only 4 of the volunteers survived the 48 hrs . Needless to say by the end all agreed that the methods weren't trustworthy as they were close to simply making up confession just to get out and they were only the 48 hrs,eally makes you think what it would be like for some of the detainees which are coming up on 4 years of imprisonment at Guantanamo

Methods included the volunteers being subject to:
-Sleep Deprivation
-Extreme tempetute change
-Refusal of toilet facilities
-Solitary Isolation
-Subjest to white noise
-Being stripped nake in front of other people(One of the biggest insults in the muslim world)
-several other methods which I can think of


Has the making of a great reality tv programme I think, Immagne Jade or Nasty Nick going through that :D

[Éanna]

It seems there is one set of rules for America and another set for the rest of the world and if you disagree with what they are saying your there enemy..
True. Its all well and good them saying "You're either with us or against us" but when they have one set of rules for themselves and one for everyone else, it just won't work.

[pete]

I also read that many of the interrogators are female & have used "methods" such as:
- wearing tight t-shirts & rubbing aginst the "detainees"
- painting the palms of their hands with red marker, touching the "detainees" as if to suggest they've had their period.

All in the name of humiliation.

:eek:

[shedite]

Missed the show. ANybody know if there's more episodes or will it be repeated on E4 or something?

[anto eile]

Funny how no militants ever attack Finland or Norway or Sweden or us for that matter.
funny, as bin laden actually pointed out to the yanks something similar, ie "america should look at why al-qaeda has never atacked sweden"

the american government have brought this upon themselves.in fact theyve gotten off extremely lightly. 3500 dead at the world trade centre pales into comparison with the amount of people whove died as a result of americas own aggressive foreign policies

[liam88]

Not defending any of the sick actions but we cannot forget the people who died in September 11. I am not saying that these people were worth more than all the people who have died in Iraq/Afghanistan but I think it's just worth noting at this point that most people in those building were innocent and should not be put in the same boat as anybody humiliating/torturing/hurting prisoners. I know most of you agree but I thought it'd just be worth making the distinction-the people who died on 9/11 were mainly jsut doing their job, many not even American and their memory should not be soiled. I am sure the tourists on the flights etc. wanted nothing to do with any of this so I don't really think 9/11 should be brought into this at all.

Again-I'm in danger of sound pro-american here and belive me-I think this torture etc. is disgaceful but we musn't forget that not all of these prisoners are innocent. I'm NOT justifying humiliation or torture and I'm not saying that the American system of detention in perfect and fair.....far from it; I'm just putting in the different angle that many (not all!) of these would do the same sort of things to American soldiers who are just doing their job or European buisnessmen. They'll be more than happy to put someone like Margeret Hussan (RIP) in a cage and cut off her head with a knife despite all her work for the Iraqi people.
Just to emphasise-I don't think that this justifies torturing them or humiliating them but it's worth noting it's not a one sided good vs evil thing. There are evil people on both sides and people on both sides who are angry at their countires treatment by the other and many on both sides who are performing such actions because they have lost family or friends to the other side.

Don't want to see this binned because it's a good thread but i'm worried the 'politics' in it will see it locked befoe lomg :(

[Metrostars]

The Americans got a great deal of sympathy after sept. 11th. Of course theydidn't deserve an attack like that, even though it was the result of their behaviour for the past few decades. Their reaction has only made a bad situation worse, IMO they will reap what they are now sowing.


Jeez Eanna, you must be getting soft in your old age. Last year you said the US had it coming....

[dahamsta]

What exactly are you trying to say liam88? You keep saying you're not defending torture and you think torture is disgraceful, etc, etc, yet you still appear to be trying to balance it against other things, to justify it in certain circumstances, or because of certain events. I'm having difficulty trying to understand your point.

For example, you say "torture is bad", but "think of 9/11". Why? Is it ok to torture people when 5,000 people have died? What about 2,500? Where's the limit exactly? And who can I torture? Presumably it's ok to torture Richard Reid because obviously he's an attempted murderer (although one would have to wonder at his sanity, or the sanity of any suicide bomber), but what about Saajid Badat? He conspired but he didn't actually do anything, is it ok to torture him?

What about Moazzam Begg, who was returned to Britain after three years in Guantanamo, questioned for a short time and then released sans passport. Was it ok for him to have been tortured, even though it appears he's been victimised since the very beginning? But what if he's lying, would it be ok in retrospect to have tortured him if he was lying?

I feel like killing people sometimes, is it ok to torture me? Where do you draw the line on this front? Is it ok to torture me if I admit to feeling like killing people or do I actually have to make an attempt on someone's life? What about if I try it with a knife, is it ok then? A rubber chicken?

adam

[liam88]

What exactly are you trying to say liam88? You keep saying you're not defending torture and you think torture is disgraceful, etc, etc, yet you still appear to be trying to balance it against other things, to justify it in certain circumstances, or because of certain events. I'm having difficulty trying to understand your point.

For example, you say "torture is bad", but "think of 9/11". Why? Is it ok to torture people when 5,000 people have died? What about 2,500? Where's the limit exactly? And who can I torture? Presumably it's ok to torture Richard Reid because obviously he's an attempted murderer (although one would have to wonder at his sanity, or the sanity of any suicide bomber), but what about Saajid Badat? He conspired but he didn't actually do anything, is it ok to torture him?

What about Moazzam Begg, who was returned to Britain after three years in Guantanamo, questioned for a short time and then released sans passport. Was it ok for him to have been tortured, even though it appears he's been victimised since the very beginning? But what if he's lying, would it be ok in retrospect to have tortured him if he was lying?

I feel like killing people sometimes, is it ok to torture me? Where do you draw the line on this front? Is it ok to torture me if I admit to feeling like killing people or do I actually have to make an attempt on someone's life? What about if I try it with a knife, is it ok then? A rubber chicken?

adam

Ok mabye I put it in a long winded way. Summary:

What those US soldiers are doing is sick. It's evil and it's wrong and should not be done.
But because some US soldiersa re doing sick/evil/wrong things we should not forget the eqaully sick/evil/wrong things done by Al Queda etc.
Just because some US soldiers are acting immorally and wrongly it does not justify the killing of innocent Westeners and vice versa; same as during the troubles

Just me trying to look at it with an open mind and not clouded with anger/confusion as can happen very easily

[dahamsta]

I think that, like JFK for the older generation, anyone that was around on the 11th of September will never forget what happened, and they don't need to be reminded about it by you or anyone else. "Reminding" people is just a distraction from what's going on here and now.

adam

[liam88]

I think that, like JFK for the older generation, anyone that was around on the 11th of September will never forget what happened, and they don't need to be reminded about it by you or anyone else. "Reminding" people is just a distraction from what's going on here and now.

adam

People remember it but forget the suffering it caused because of the suffering caused by the b**tard prison wardens now!
Trying to say that some of the prison wardens do this coz they are angry at 9/11 just like some Al Quaeda memebrs blow themselves up in car bombs because they are angry at the invasion..
Sorry i was just trying to get a balanced view on it

[Closed Account 2]

Funny how no militants ever attack Finland or Norway or Sweden or us for that matter.
funny, as bin laden actually pointed out to the yanks something similar, ie "america should look at why al-qaeda has never atacked sweden"


Well Al-Qaeda-esque groups were active in East Timor before it split from Indonesia. Now most people wouldnt consider East Timor to be either a superpower or an aggressive state, and more importantly it didnt even exist as a state when these groups started to attack it - it was still part of Indonesia then. Similarly now there are Al-Qaeda backed groups conducting insurgencies in Southern Thailand, which again isnt a country that significantly projects it power on the world stage. Bin Laden himself is rumoured to have fought in the Nagorno-Karaback conflict on the side of the Azeri's against the Armenians, most of the Azeri units were made of Arabian ex-mujahideen who fought against the USSR in the 80s. Again it would be hard to describe the Armenians as an aggressive state.

[Éanna]

I think if you examine most of the cases you've stated, you'll find that there are/were situations where there is tension or conflict between the government and ethnic minorities which are muslim, hence the "al qaeda" involvment.

[Closed Account 2]

At the time of Al-Qaeda involvment, East Timor (Roman Catholic, population c.1,000,000) was part of Indonesia (Muslim country, population 238,452,952).

Armenian (Eastern Orthodox Christianity) population 2,900,000. Azerbaijan (Muslim Country) population 7,800,000.

So basic maths would suggest the oppressed minorities in those two of the three examples are Christians, and the oppressors are Islamic Governments / Al-Qaeda.

[mypost]

Funny how no militants ever attack us

No? Sorry, they already have.

Irish people were among those barbarically killed by Al-Qaeda terrorists in New York.
Irishwoman, Annette Flanagan was kidnapped by terrorists in Afghanistan.
Irish citizens, Ken Bigley, and Margaret Hassan were tortured, humiliated, and eventually beheaded in Iraq.
If Islamic terrorists attack a nuclear power station in Britain, Irish people will be killed.

At the end of the day, this is all part of a war, and innocent people suffer in war. While a minority of suspected terrorists have been badly treated by coalition forces in the War against terrorism, it doesn't compare to what Westerners go through should they be captured by Islamic terrorists. They don't care whether their hostages are American, British, Japanese, German, or Irish. They see them as Westerners, they hate our lifestyle, so they just kill them anyway, to claim a propaganda victory for their "cause". None of the despots, terrorists, nuisances, and other undesirables banged up in Cuba were killed by coalition forces, they can wait for their trial, and some of them are even released. So they get off relatively lightly, for attempting to threaten the security of the civilised world. :mad:

[GavinZac]

No? Sorry, they already have.

Irish people were among those barbarically killed by Al-Qaeda terrorists in New York.
Irishwoman, Annette Flanagan was kidnapped by terrorists in Afghanistan.
Irish citizens, Ken Bigley, and Margaret Hassan were tortured, humiliated, and eventually beheaded in Iraq.
If Islamic terrorists attack a nuclear power station in Britain, Irish people will be killed.

At the end of the day, this is all part of a war, and innocent people suffer in war. While a minority of suspected terrorists have been badly treated by coalition forces in the War against terrorism, it doesn't compare to what Westerners go through should they be captured by Islamic terrorists. They don't care whether their hostages are American, British, Japanese, German, or Irish. They see them as Westerners, they hate our lifestyle, so they just kill them anyway, to claim a propaganda victory for their "cause". None of the despots, terrorists, nuisances, and other undesirables banged up in Cuba were killed by coalition forces, they can wait for their trial, and some of them are even released. So they get off relatively lightly, for attempting to threaten the security of the civilised world. :mad:

this post brought to you by FOX Network News (c) 2004

[Lionel Ritchie]

No? Sorry, they already have.

Irish people were among those barbarically killed by Al-Qaeda terrorists in New York.
Irishwoman, Annette Flanagan was kidnapped by terrorists in Afghanistan.
Irish citizens, Ken Bigley, and Margaret Hassan were tortured, humiliated, and eventually beheaded in Iraq.
If Islamic terrorists attack a nuclear power station in Britain, Irish people will be killed agreed so far


At the end of the day, this is all part of a war, and innocent people suffer in war.
what war? no-ne's declared any war?


While a minority of suspected terrorists have been badly treated by coalition forces in the War against terrorism, it doesn't compare to what Westerners go through should they be captured by Islamic terrorists. Why? do we hurt more or something? Do they not feel pain and humiliation the same way we do?


They don't care whether their hostages are American, British, Japanese, German, or Irish. They see them as Westerners, they hate our lifestyle, so they just kill them anyway, to claim a propaganda victory for their "cause". Like the "allies" segregate out the good guys from the bad guys before they bomb the sh i t out of places yes?

Listen you can dress it up as "collateral damge" or "unintended overkill" or whatever term some Army PR guy uses when talking at press conferences these days -but the fact remains -when you slash a path through the innocent to get at the guilty you forfeit the moral high ground. You p i ss on the values that make our society a better and fairer one than theirs and ultimately -you lose the right to bitch when they strike back with whatever tools are available to them.



None of the despots, terrorists, nuisances, and other undesirables banged up in Cuba were killed by coalition forces, What despots are in guantanamo? Most of the worlds despots are running autocracies that are propped up by the patronage of the USA. define "nuisance" for me? define "undesirable"?



they can wait for their trial. What trial? nobody's being tried for a damn thing.



some of them are even released.
How decent of them. Lock someone up for a couple of years without charge and then have the good nature to let them out without so much as a by your leave or an explanation. round of applause for America.



So they get off relatively lightly, for attempting to threaten the security of the civilised world. :D aw stop! you're hurting my sides now. The Civilised world you say? what in the name of sweet screaming Jesus is civilised about what they've been doing to people in Guantanamo ...and Abhu Ghraib ...and god knows where else? Really that's brilliant. Your not Cardassian or Romulan by any chance are you? that's the type of hokkum nonsense the Carrdassians and Romulans used spout on Star Trek.

[Neish]

this post brought to you by FOX Network News (c) 2004
:D :D :D :D :D :

[Neish]

No? Sorry, they already have.

Irish people were among those barbarically killed by Al-Qaeda terrorists in New York.
Irishwoman, Annette Flanagan was kidnapped by terrorists in Afghanistan.
Irish citizens, Ken Bigley, and Margaret Hassan were tortured, humiliated, and eventually beheaded in Iraq.
If Islamic terrorists attack a nuclear power station in Britain, Irish people will be killed.

At the end of the day, this is all part of a war, and innocent people suffer in war. While a minority of suspected terrorists have been badly treated by coalition forces in the War against terrorism, it doesn't compare to what Westerners go through should they be captured by Islamic terrorists. They don't care whether their hostages are American, British, Japanese, German, or Irish. They see them as Westerners, they hate our lifestyle, so they just kill them anyway, to claim a propaganda victory for their "cause". None of the despots, terrorists, nuisances, and other undesirables banged up in Cuba were killed by coalition forces, they can wait for their trial, and some of them are even released. So they get off relatively lightly, for attempting to threaten the security of the civilised world. :mad:

Yeah the likes of al-Queda torture, kill and slaughter the innocent and usually people are only there to help. But is this any different than the Christian crusades in the early part of the last millenium simply slaughtered peoples and tribes who refused to convert to christanity?
Westerns have constantly opressed the people of such contries to persue their own intrests usually oil. The british crown opressed Irish people for 800 years and I bet ya wouldn't blame anyone for hate them. In fact some of the people that have done similar(mayb not to such extremes) of this country are held up as National heros

[mypost]

what war? no-one's declared any war?
Why? do we hurt more or something? Do they not feel pain and humiliation the same way we do?
What trial? nobody's being tried for a damn thing.
How decent of them. Lock someone up for a couple of years without charge and then have the good nature to let them out without so much as a by your leave or an explanation. round of applause for America.
what is civilised about what they've been doing to people in Guantanamo ...and Abhu Ghraib ...and god knows where else?

It's a war between the free, tolerant, democratic world, against Islamic militants, their support networks, and rogue states. It's not a war in the conventional sense, but it's still a war.

I would take what was shown in the recent documentary with a pinch of salt. You have to remember, with so much anti-American feeling around these days, that such shows are hyped-up for tv, to suit a particular agenda. The guys locked up in Cuba are not on holiday, they're in a prison. While any abuse from coalition troops towards prisoners can't be condoned, they're not humiliated on the internet, to be later shot or beheaded, are they? A civilised society is not one that beheads people.

Al-Qaeda militants are those who hijack civilian airliners, and smash them into Western buildings. They wander into nightclubs and blow them up. They bomb Western trains, they blow up Western embassies, they destroy foreign vessels. Their followers threaten to throw acid at girls, who don't follow their strict dress code. They preach hatred of our way of life, and the free world. According to coalition troops, they pose a security threat. So, they're put in prison, in Cuba, Iraq, and other countries.

Many of the them have threatened to, and would attack us given the opportunity. Their goal is to create a worldwide Islamic state, which cannot, and will not be allowed to happen. They, their networks, and those who support them must be rounded up by the international community, wherever they are. When that's done, this war will be over.

[pete]

I always love the "...i don't condone...but..." lines. :rolleyes:

Seen a bit of tv show about US prisons during the week. Regualr beatings of prisoners, pepper spray for basically talking back to guards etc...

US government should just admit they condone tortune as hardly seems to matter if natioanls or non-nationals.

Can anyone explain why Taliban member were taken by American soldiers from their own country & locked in jail in Cuba & not even charged with an offense?

Show on BBC last night likened American foreign policy to Steve Irwin crocodile hunter. If i keep poking him hes gonna get mad, hes getting mad... :eek:

[Macy]

Show on BBC last night likened American foreign policy to Steve Irwin crocodile hunter. If i keep poking him hes gonna get mad, hes getting mad... :eek:
Caught about 5 minutes of the "This Week" programme where they were discussing the UK's new laws. Basically internment again (but barely seems to making the news over here). Diane Abbot arguing for the house arrests without charges, trial etc and Michael Portillo arguing against it that there must be a trial process (even one without a trial) and totally anti these measures. Those who don't follow English politics pick out the probably next leader of the Tory part out of that pair..

[dahamsta]

I always love the "...i don't condone...but..." lines. :rolleyes:This is the issue I have with some of the comments in this thread. There should never, ever be a "but" when it comes to things like torture. It's simply unacceptable in a democracy. Saying things like "but those guys do it" is just childish, and things like "they're in jail, not a holiday camp" frankly disgust me. You'd have to wonder how acceptable it would be to people with these opinions if they found themselves in the same position, guilty or not.

adam

[Troy.McClure]

A civilised society is not one that beheads people.

Yup, you fry them instead (http://www.texecutions.com/texecuted.html) :( And this is from the guy who represents what you are defending!