Saudi Arabia not observing the silence

[osarusan]

Yeah, the second part.

I think Muslim integration (or lack of) is generally considered to be a big issue in Europe. (I'm not in favour of open immigration policies at all, but that's a separate issue). So yes, there is an issue as to whether this would impinge women's rights when they are already here. But I think a burqa ban would also send out a signal to potential immigrants about cultural norms expected in Ireland. Don't like it? Don't come here so. Harsh? I don't think so. I think it needs to be considered from both sides.


Perhaps we are getting to the heart of the matter here.

It's one thing to say that it's all about equality and women's rights and challenging an oppressive mentality - that it is actually for their benefit. It's quite another thing to say it might actually impinge on the rights of Muslim women who are already here, but that's acceptable because it's really about creating an environment hostile enough that it keeps them out in the first place.

You can't really have it both ways.

[pineapple stu]

I think that's a bit of playing the man, not the ball if I'm honest.

I've made a reply which covers why I'm opposed to it, why I don't think it really holds that it should only be banned in some places, why it's a barrier to integration, why I don't think there's a huge issue with Muslims attending Irish schools based on personal experience, and why although the burqa itself may be objectionable but not a threat to our culture (a bit like Rovers fans :) ), that there is a potential cultural threat from immigration intolerant of our customs (as the example of schools in England being targetted with the aim of installing a relatively radical Muslim ethos hints at; I am having to make assumptions in linking the type of conservative Islam which favours burqas with the issues Operation Trojan concerns, but I don't think it's unreasonable), and so I have no problem with this disparity in customs being nipped in the bud.

I think that's a detailed reply, and while I absolutely don't think you have to agree with it, I think a reply should at least address some of those points. But yours doesn't.

I don't see any contradiction in saying that the burqa can be banned for two reasons; both for women's rights and to keep conservative Islam and its values - which are quite nasty by our standards - from taking root in western society.

[osarusan]

I think that's a bit of playing the man, not the ball if I'm honest.

That wasn't my intention.

To deal with your last point first:


I don't see any contradiction in saying that the burqa can be banned for two reasons; both for women's rights and to keep conservative Islam and its values - which are quite nasty by our standards - from taking root in western society.
I think there is a clear contradiction in the suggestion that banning a burqa is something that will improve their quality of life, empower them, etc (effectively being done for their benefit), and is also something that would ideally act as a deterrent to their immigration in the first place. You obviously don't, so maybe we will just leave it at that.



I've made a reply which covers why I'm opposed to it, why I don't think it really holds that it should only be banned in some places, why it's a barrier to integration, why I don't think there's a huge issue with Muslims attending Irish schools based on personal experience, and why although the burqa itself may be objectionable but not a threat to our culture (a bit like Rovers fans :) ), that there is a potential cultural threat from immigration intolerant of our customs (as the example of schools in England being targetted with the aim of installing a relatively radical Muslim ethos hints at; I am having to make assumptions in linking the type of conservative Islam which favours burqas with the issues Operation Trojan concerns, but I don't think it's unreasonable), and so I have no problem with this disparity in customs being nipped in the bud.
Operation Trojan is a concern, I absolutely agree. No religion should be allowed to infiltrate or influence the ethos or practices of state schools. Although in Ireland this has already happened, as Catholic schools are, as I said about 90% of all primary schools, so I do think it's somewhat ironic to be talking about the danger of religious influence in schools here. I suppose it happened so long ago in Ireland, and is so normalised, that we don't even consider it the case.

And in Ireland we have our own Dr Ali Selim, of the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland (ICCI), who pipes up every now and then with a request for some accommodation or other, such as segregated PE classes, or broadcasting the Call to Prayer as well as the Angelus. He is generally ridiculed and shuts up for a while, and retreats to Clonskeagh Mosque, where, in case you didn't know, there is a school called Nur-Ul-Huda, where students learn to recite and understand the teachings of the Qur'an.

I get your argument about the problem with non-integration of Muslims. I get your argument about the perils of a conservative or even extremist branch of Islam getting some kind of foothold in the country. I get your argument about the problems with large scale immigration. I understand that you think something needs to be done about these problems.

But what I don't get is what role you think banning the burqa or niqab plays in addressing these problems. Because that's the discussion we are having here.

And I don't see what impact banning them would have. As I said previously, how do we predict or measure these things. How do we measure levels of integration, and try to assess the impact that banning them would have on improving levels of integration. To what extent will banning them impact on conservative or extremist branches of Islam getting a foothold in the country. Is there any evidence to suggest that they would have any effect?

Because without that evidence, I think it is very hard to justify, and a blanket ban would remain a disproportionate measure. Perhaps it's because of the striking visibility of a burqa or niqab, that it seem to me to be a fairly symbolic thing, and maybe that's the appeal of it. As you said, it shouldn't be done 'just because'; there needs to sound justification for it.

But I am not convinced that the reasoning behind it is all that solid, if we move beyond that symbolism.