View Full Version : 10 team or 12 team league
kevincronin2000
21/02/2005, 7:25 PM
all Ireland league 16 Teams
30 Games.
Buller
21/02/2005, 8:02 PM
All-Ireland 16-team league 32 games. :cool:
1 9 2 8
21/02/2005, 8:15 PM
All-Ireland 16-team league 32 games. :cool:
......And play your self twice :rolleyes:
joeraki
21/02/2005, 8:18 PM
18. Sure teams can struggle to get a 1st division every time. Might as well stick them all in the one division. Stick the others in some sort of regional divisions
10 team league kept everyone on their toes, and for the most part, kept the dross out.
12 team league would be ok if it was 4 rounds of games, but with the chasm in class between clubs like City and Shels Vs UCD and Bray, and mid Tablers like Waterford and SPA, the last 10-12 games could be very meaningless for many.
Though a 16 team All Ireland league would be nice.
A face
21/02/2005, 8:52 PM
Though a 16 team All Ireland league would be nice.
It does seem to be the best solution to the whole thing, it should keep most of the dross as you say out and keep the standard high enough so the league could realise any bit of ambition that it has. And it would be fair with 30 games, each team once, home and away and not team could be given the upper hand and there could be no claims that there is an agenda but anyone making out the fixtures.
Sure we'd all like a 16 team league or/and an All-Irelands League but at the moment neither are viable options.
IMO the Poll would be much more informative if just had the 1st 3 options.
People used to complain about the 10 team league creating an elite of dublin clubs when in fact the opposite has possibly happened.
The 10 team league has been the most competitive in my 15 years going to games. Longford were doing well at its creation but have gone on to win 2 FAI Cups & are a regular top half of league team
Drogs used to be a yoyo side but are now on way to fulltime pro setup which I doubt many would have predicted a few years ago
On the otherhand Rovers & Pats are not serious competitors.
The 12 team league made clubs lazy just like fact that only 1 team was relegated last season saved Rovers & Pats from potential relegation or at least a playoff.
10 team league will re-introduce the traditional 12th place wipping-boy team.
11 teams, 4 rounds. 40 games.
For much the same reasons as pete plus an extra two games for the gates of each club, just to help it along.
Dr.Nightdub
21/02/2005, 10:00 PM
... just like fact that only 1 team was relegated last season saved Rovers & Pats from potential relegation or at least a playoff.
No Pete, the fact that we finished four points ahead of the second-from-bottom club saved us from a play-off.
The last time we were seriously at risk of a play-off was in the 2002/03 "transition" season, but then we made ourselves safe by ending a miserable run of one win in nine games with a victory. Against Cork. ;)
Roo69
21/02/2005, 10:02 PM
10 team league kept everyone on their toes, and for the most part, kept the dross out.
12 team league would be ok if it was 4 rounds of games, but with the chasm in class between clubs like City and Shels Vs UCD and Bray, and mid Tablers like Waterford and SPA, the last 10-12 games could be very meaningless for many.
Though a 16 team All Ireland league would be nice.
All-Ireland 16-team league 32 games - Agreed.
I do believe UCD knocked City out of the cup last season :D What ever about us but UCD always give the better teams a tough time.
Lads, being realistic for now, a 16 team league is not going to happen in the short term, so lets concentrate on whats realistic.
People used to complain about the 10 team league creating an elite of dublin clubs when in fact the opposite has possibly happened.
The 10 team league has been the most competitive in my 15 years going to games. Longford were doing well at its creation but have gone on to win 2 FAI Cups & are a regular top half of league team
Drogs used to be a yoyo side but are now on way to fulltime pro setup which I doubt many would have predicted a few years ago
On the otherhand Rovers & Pats are not serious competitors.
The 12 team league made clubs lazy just like fact that only 1 team was relegated last season saved Rovers & Pats from potential relegation or at least a playoff.
Spot on.
pineapple stu
21/02/2005, 10:37 PM
Why such support for a 16-team league? 30 games is far too few, surely? Unless you're gong to throw in an extended cross-border cup or something. Even 33 is too few, I think.
I don't like the 10-team league. It alienates First Division clubs even more, and hinders their development more than anything. 12-team isn't perfect, but unfortunately, given the size of the country and the prominence of the GAA (which I quite enjoy, and I think it's something we should be proud of, unlike many here, so not knocking it) it's the best scenario at the moment.
harry crumb
21/02/2005, 10:51 PM
The talk on Today Fm's Last Word this evening was optimistic that an All-Ireland league is in the pipeline. Things like the Derry-Linfield tomorrow and the Setanta cup are testing the water so to speak.
The fact is that a country the size of Ireland can't sustain so many pro soccer clubs. If we want a good premier division then the big clubs from Northern Ireland will have to take part in the long run.
Its unfair to vote on a 16 team league this year as it not an option.
For 2005 options are 10 or 12 team leagues.
I can't belive anyone thinks a 44 game series league is remotely possibly. Top clubs would have 50+ games excluding league Cup & a Euro & FAI Cup run could push to impossible 60.
:rolleyes:
For the purposes of this I've gone 10 team league. The uneven home and away has always bugged me more than playing teams 4 times in the league ever has.
Going forward an 18 team All Ireland Premier Division would be my choice. Top 9 from each. 2 relegated, 1 down in a playoff with 2,3,4 of an All Ireland first.
If we stay seperate, I'd rather we went for some radical change to the make up of the league. (eg 2 regional divisions of 12, home and away, interdivisional series, play off's for Championship with other play offs down the league so everyone has an interest till the end (Trophy, Sheild, Plate etc))
sullanefc
22/02/2005, 8:26 AM
I think everyone on here would agree on an all ireland league. But working with what we have I would have to agree with Xlex, why not an 11 team league with 40 games? Every week a team gets a bye and doesn't have to play anyone and is automatically given 3 points.
De Town
22/02/2005, 9:46 AM
I dont really mind how many teams are in the League once you play eachother home and away an even amount of times.
Personally I'd go for a 16 team league and try and bring 4 more Junior clubs from around the country into the first division.
Can see the advantages and disadvantages of both a 10 team and 12 team leagues - pretty hard to choose one over the other cos they both have big disadvantages..............
dubman
22/02/2005, 11:41 AM
I think 12 teams and a 44 game year. you cant have one team playing home once and needing to play the same time twice away , does not make sence. more games mean more gates. so more money. Thats what this league needs more than any thing
NY Hoop
22/02/2005, 12:19 PM
Has to be 10. This present structure has failed before. There is not enough quality for any more than 10 teams in the premier. Fact. Also 36 games is enough for the players considering that most clubs are part time.
KOH
pineapple stu
22/02/2005, 12:28 PM
why not an 11 team league with 40 games? Every week a team gets a bye and doesn't have to play anyone and is automatically given 3 points.
Wouldn't work - you can't really have a league with an odd number of teams. Come the final day of the season, one team'll have a bye and other teams will then know exactly what they have to do to win the league/stay up/get into Europe, etc.
50/50 between the 10-team and the 12-team at the moment...interesting! So much for the comment which triggered this poll that nobody was in favour of the 12-team league!
pineapple stu
22/02/2005, 12:34 PM
10 team league kept everyone on their toes, and for the most part, kept the dross out.
12 team league would be ok if it was 4 rounds of games, but with the chasm in class between clubs like City and Shels Vs UCD and Bray
Typical arrogant Cork nonsense! :rolleyes: Youz haven't beaten us in the last three games, including the Cup last year, as Roo69 pointed out. Our last two visits to Tolka have neded in draws. I hope Dolan writes off us off as easily as you do - should be nine handy points! But then I'd say he's got more sense than that! Which, given his rant at the fixtures, is really saying something!
I think 12 team league this year will be more competitive than previous versions but thats more by luck of the 3 relatively strong promoted teams.
In current format will be difficult to get relegated from Premier & too easy to get promoted from 1st division.
btw i think the results of this poll speak for themselves.
pineapple stu
22/02/2005, 1:31 PM
I think 12 team league this year will be more competitive than previous versions but thats more by luck of the 3 relatively strong promoted teams.
Really? Very easy way to write off the hard work of other clubs. I think it's down to football all over the country getting better, which negates the need for a 10-team Premier. I don't think the 10-team Premier necessarily caused that improvement either.
btw I think the results of this poll speak for themselves.
They do. Apart from the "Others", people are almost exactly split. Which isn't what was being suggested (by you?) earlier.
Obviously All-Ireland league is at least a few years off, but even with what we've got, a 16-team Premier is an achievable goal.
33 games is very bad because it is open to criticism. It's not that anyone necessarily gets a better deal that anyone else, but the fact that it causes controversy means that you can't have full confidence that the league champions are the best team in the league (unless they win by 10 points!)
I liked the 10 team league. Four games against each club wasn't too many, and the fact that it was tight meant that the competition against other clubs was fierce.
However, it was killing those clubs that didn't get into the Premier. Having only one auto relegation place did mean that it was nearly impossible for clubs in the First division to get into the Premier. It also meant that whenever there was a whipping boy in the Premier, clubs like Shams, SPA and Derry, didn't really need to worry too much about getting relegated.
On this basis, if we don't have a 16 team Prem, we should either have a Premier Div with:
10 teams, with 2 auto and 2 playoff relegation spots, or
12 teams, with 3 auto and 1 playoff relegation spots.
The reason I think there should be so many relegation/promotion spots is so that going down to the First Div shouldn't be a death sentence, like it has been for the last few years. The First Div should be a disincentive to complacency in the Premier, but equally clubs should be able to get out of it relatively easily if they put in a good performance in the First. This would also, I think, add interest to the First Division, because there would probably be at least one or two "big" clubs in there each season.
Sheridan
22/02/2005, 5:48 PM
I can't believe anyone is seriously advocating a 44 game season for a league such as ours. This would saddle our (predominantly part-time) Premier Division players with comfortably the most arduous domestic fixture list of any top-flight league in Europe. Most European leagues of comparable size and stature to ours limit top division fixtures to thirty (or fewer, in many cases) games per club.
Typical arrogant Cork nonsense! :rolleyes: Youz haven't beaten us in the last three games, including the Cup last year, as Roo69 pointed out. Our last two visits to Tolka have neded in draws. I hope Dolan writes off us off as easily as you do - should be nine handy points! But then I'd say he's got more sense than that! Which, given his rant at the fixtures, is really saying something!
Monaghan
Kilkenny
Galway
Home Farm
Athlone
Cobh
All of these teams have been in the premier in the last ten years, and brought nothing. It was always just a amtter of when they would be relegated rather than if. Drogs were very much like that, but the 10 team league made them get their house in order, and fast. Longford tethered in the 12 team, and are now a solid regular Premier Division team.
So rant on. You say us Cork guys are paranoid? :rolleyes:
pineapple stu
22/02/2005, 6:17 PM
Well then mention them instead of "dross" with a serious "chasm in class" such as City v. UCD. :rolleyes:
CollegeTillIDie
22/02/2005, 7:21 PM
Well some say 16 team All-Ireland League and some say 30 games are too few. What would be wrong with an 18 team League? And say 34 games?
This would be better in an All Ireland League context, but Serie A and Primera Liga's in Spain had this configuration for many years. 34 games is only one more than 33 and everyone would have the same number of home and away games... what do ye think?
In the first season you could have the top 9 from Norn Iron and the top 9 from the el to make up the initial 18 and then after that have two up (i.e. 1 from each) and two down between the All_Ireland Premier and the regional First Divisions which would be divided on a geographic North/South Divide.
So you would have for example Bangor V Dundalk in the Northern First Division
and you would have Cobh Ramblers v Kildare County in the Southern First Division.
Well then mention them instead of "dross" with a serious "chasm in class" such as City v. UCD. :rolleyes:
Will UCD be challenging for anything more than survival this season?
Will City or Shels be threatened with relegation?
Wasnt being 'arrogant', just stating the facts.
pineapple stu
22/02/2005, 7:47 PM
Will UCD be challenging for anything more than survival this season?
Will City or Shels be threatened with relegation?
That doesn't show a chasm in class at all. Could be a very tight league, like most here seem to be expecting.
Write us off if you want. I don't mind. In the second half of 2003, we were only 2 points off youz in the form table, drawing both our games. That after the mess Doolin left at the club. If you think that's a "chasm in class", fair enough.
Anyway, drifting off topic here...
Kerry Blue
22/02/2005, 7:58 PM
Well some say 16 team All-Ireland League and some say 30 games are too few. What would be wrong with an 18 team League? And say 34 games?
This would be better in an All Ireland League context, but Serie A and Primera Liga's in Spain had this configuration for many years. 34 games is only one more than 33 and everyone would have the same number of home and away games... what do ye think?
In the first season you could have the top 9 from Norn Iron and the top 9 from the el to make up the initial 18 and then after that have two up (i.e. 1 from each) and two down between the All_Ireland Premier and the regional First Divisions which would be divided on a geographic North/South Divide.
So you would have for example Bangor V Dundalk in the Northern First Division
and you would have Cobh Ramblers v Kildare County in the Southern First Division.
To me this seems to be a very good idea, but how far off is an All-Ireland League? It could be years yet. Though if the Setanta Cup is a success it could move a little closer. It seems this idea has a lot of support this side of the border, but I wonder if there is much support for it up north?
Question: What happens if the two bottom teams in your A-I Prem are from the north (or south)? Do they both get relegated or, only one of them and then the next lowest team to keep the divisions geographically balanced?
pineapple stu
22/02/2005, 9:21 PM
Question: What happens if the two bottom teams in your A-I Prem are from the north (or south)? Do they both get relegated or, only one of them and then the next lowest team to keep the divisions geographically balanced?
Think we've had this before. The north/south divisions aren't the North and the Republic, but rather are all the teams split into an equal number by a line through the the country. If it ends up that more Northern Irish or Irish teams end up in the top flight, so be it.
It's the way the old English Third Division North and South worked, and the way the Conference North and South work in England now. Perfectly possible also for teams to jump between leagues.
I have to seriously consider the grip on reality that some people have here.
How the hell can 15 people vote for a 44 game league????????? Are ye mad???
I'm sure Sligo & Cobh wopuld love to be in the Premier by increasing to 16 or 18 clubs but can another imagine the huge gap in class between current top 3-4 Fulltime squads & what are virtually amateur players? If mid-table 1st division clubs want to play in the Premier division i suggest they get promoted the old fashioned way by beating the clubs in their own league first.
:rolleyes:
sullanefc
23/02/2005, 8:41 AM
Wouldn't work - you can't really have a league with an odd number of teams. Come the final day of the season, one team'll have a bye and other teams will then know exactly what they have to do to win the league/stay up/get into Europe, etc.
It would be better than the current format where come the final day of the season you are playing an extra away game more than your rivals.
pineapple stu
23/02/2005, 12:34 PM
It would be better than the current format where come the final day of the season you are playing an extra away game more than your rivals.
Eh? That makes no sense! Playing away when your rivals are playing at home on the last day happens in every league. Having your season finished when your rivals are playing on the last day and know wxactly what they have to do to win the league (or whatever the case) happens nowhere, and hasn't happened since those kind of games started being rigged ('82 West Germany v. Austria springs to mind). I'm not suggesting that that kind of thing would happen here, but can you imagine the reaction from Cork fans if Bohs lost 4-0 at home to Shels (as they did a couple of years ago) when Shels needed to win by four goals to win the league? It just leaves things open to abuse. Odd number of teams is no good at all.
anto eile
23/02/2005, 3:22 PM
consider this:
16 team premier.30 games a year
10 team 1st division.
use the 1st div ,not as a graveyard, but as a breeding ground for ambitious smaller clubs who wish to compete at a higher level. (that includes sh!t teams already in the EL like monaghan btw)
allow ambitious junior clubs access to 1st div. ie allow the likes of kerry league, mullingar utd, birr town, rockmount, newbridge town etc to apply for the 4 vacant spots in the 1st div. to make up 10 teams.
so the premier would look like:
Rovers
cork
derry
longford
harps
bray
ucd
drogheda
waterford
sligo
galway
dundalk
athlone
pats
shels
gypos
bottom of premier automatically down. 2nd bottom (and possibly 3rd bottom [to make it interesting]) play off v 2nd in 1st div for promotion to premier
the 1st div
cobh
monaghan
limerick
kilkenny
kildare
dublin franchise city
kerry league (eg)
mullingar utd (eg)
rockmount (eg)
birr town (eg)
1st div teams play each other 4 times.
champions of leinter senior, munster senior and connacht/ulster senior leagues can gain promotion to 1st div via playoffs v each other and bottom team in 1st div.,subject to requirements (ground etc.). This will facilitate ambitious smaller clubs who want to play at a higher level
if not enough clubs can be found to take a position in the new 1st div. then allow premier clubs put out reserve sides in the 1st.this happens a lot in spain for example.these reserve teams,like in spain, would be barred from playing in the premier if their 1st team already plays in it (which would make promotion easier for the "proper" 1st div teams,meaning it is less likely to result in the graveyard effect than now)
Bray Head
23/02/2005, 3:40 PM
44 League games a season is too much unless all clubs are full time. Just look at the last few seasons Any club that has success in Europe or the cup competitions will end up playing twice a week all season. Two seasons ago Longford ended the season playing 8 or 9 games in the last month of the season. I know 33 league games is unfair to the clubs who play an extra away game but the fixtures reverse the following season so it normally balances out.
As for the first division, the travelling costs are killing clubs. Why not have a first division North (12 teams) and a first division South (12 teams) by bringing in the top Leinster,Munster, Connacht and Ulster senior league clubs who are on a par with the clubs in the bottom half of the first division. The winners of each division could play off against the bottom 2 sides in the premier division in the relegation/promotion play off.
Longfordian
23/02/2005, 3:44 PM
We had something similar last season too
sullanefc
23/02/2005, 4:54 PM
Eh? That makes no sense! Playing away when your rivals are playing at home on the last day happens in every league.
Maybe I didn't explain myself properly, but what is fair about playing your 17th away game (on the final day of the season) when the team who you are challenging for the title have only played 16 away games, and are playing their 17th home game. The 11 team league isn't ideal but I think it would be better than 12.
Having your season finished when your rivals are playing on the last day and know wxactly what they have to do to win the league (or whatever the case) happens nowhere, and hasn't happened since those kind of games started being rigged ('82 West Germany v. Austria springs to mind). I'm not suggesting that that kind of thing would happen here, but can you imagine the reaction from Cork fans if Bohs lost 4-0 at home to Shels (as they did a couple of years ago) when Shels needed to win by four goals to win the league? It just leaves things open to abuse. Odd number of teams is no good at all.
There is always an uneven number of teams in the qualifying stages of Euro Cups and world cups and it works.
sullanefc
23/02/2005, 4:58 PM
consider this:
16 team premier.30 games a year
10 team 1st division.
use the 1st div ,not as a graveyard, but as a breeding ground for ambitious smaller clubs who wish to compete at a higher level. (that includes sh!t teams already in the EL like monaghan btw)
allow ambitious junior clubs access to 1st div. ie allow the likes of kerry league, mullingar utd, birr town, rockmount, newbridge town etc to apply for the 4 vacant spots in the 1st div. to make up 10 teams.
so the premier would look like:
Rovers
cork
derry
longford
harps
bray
ucd
drogheda
waterford
sligo
galway
dundalk
athlone
pats
shels
gypos
bottom of premier automatically down. 2nd bottom (and possibly 3rd bottom [to make it interesting]) play off v 2nd in 1st div for promotion to premier
the 1st div
cobh
monaghan
limerick
kilkenny
kildare
dublin franchise city
kerry league (eg)
mullingar utd (eg)
rockmount (eg)
birr town (eg)
1st div teams play each other 4 times.
champions of leinter senior, munster senior and connacht/ulster senior leagues can gain promotion to 1st div via playoffs v each other and bottom team in 1st div.,subject to requirements (ground etc.). This will facilitate ambitious smaller clubs who want to play at a higher level
if not enough clubs can be found to take a position in the new 1st div. then allow premier clubs put out reserve sides in the 1st.this happens a lot in spain for example.these reserve teams,like in spain, would be barred from playing in the premier if their 1st team already plays in it (which would make promotion easier for the "proper" 1st div teams,meaning it is less likely to result in the graveyard effect than now)
Some very good ideas in there :ball:
pineapple stu
23/02/2005, 10:31 PM
There is always an uneven number of teams in the qualifying stages of Euro Cups and world cups and it works.
I think that's silly as well, so at least I'm consistent! There's also an uneven number of teams in the international qualifiers, but you'll note that it's always the worst team who doesn't play on the last day.
Bottom line though - there's a reason no half-way decent league in the world has an odd number of teams in it...
allow ambitious junior clubs access to 1st div. ie allow the likes of kerry league, mullingar utd, birr town, rockmount, newbridge town
Problem with that is that there are no ambitious junior clubs. They were hardly beating a path to get into theleague when St Francis left? Cobh have very small crowds because of the Cork City influence - Rockmount would likely suffer similarily. Newbridge are, to all extents and purposes, Kildare County so wouldn't enter. Surely Mullingar and Birr are too small to ever add anything to the Premier? I know those are just samples you've picked, but I think the bottom line is that teams don't want to enter the eL. Which means we're stuck with the 22 teams. Maybe travelling costs is a problem, in which case a First Division North and South could be looked into, but otherwise, you're looking at how best to arrange 22 teams into two divisions...
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