NI Westminster Election 2017

[Gather round]

BttW:

1 With you on the transport improvements I think. Isn't the A1 from Lisburn to the border just a couple of bridges at Rathfriland or wherever short of being effectively a motorway anyway?

DI:

2 Aye, Brokeback's repeated 'deadlines' are pointless. But he's just an onlooker, biased or otherwise. Maybe the impatient should try not voting in vast number for the most uncompromising parties? Jusrt a thought...

3 Thanks for the link to Ciaran McClean's legal action which I'd missed. Maybe it'll be more successful than Steven Agnew's?

4 Any Southern government has both at least an implied duty as co-guarantor to be impartial, and theoretically at least SF as a future coalition partner. What's the difference in principle to the Tory/ DUP deal?

5 Sure, it'd be different if Corbyn could get his way on nuclear disarmament. No sign of it happening though. I think Labour as a whole find it very difficult to even imagine a future without constant economic growth and therefore to show much commitment or imagination to environmental issues

6 I'm sticking with 1972 as the watershed year (Stormont was abolished on my birthday, coincidentally). Unionists had lost their glorified county council and couldn't systematically discriminate and intimidate quite as before- plus as I mentioned, they had to endure 30 years of violence just like everyone else. I'm going to pull age rank here and suggest that younger Nationalists may underplay the significance of this ;)

7 If you bring down local government and continue to boycott national government, you probably won't have much say in government decisions. That isn't ominous- it looks straightforward, even predictable to me

8 I see the difference as that between small talk (motherhood, apple pie, parity of esteem) and business (hospitals, schools, York Street infrastructure). The first is an introduction to the latter, not a replacement for it

[BonnieShels]

Hey.

GR, when responding can you stick the "quoted/responded to" text into your replies so it's easier to follow for the rest of us.This back and forth between pages for me is getting as tedious as Sammy Wilson's Morning Ireland bleatings. On fire this morning so he was.

[Gather round]

Hey.

GR, when responding can you stick the "quoted/responded to" text into your replies so it's easier to follow for the rest of us.This back and forth between pages for me is getting as tedious as Sammy Wilson's Morning Ireland bleatings. On fire this morning so he was

Point taken. I did try to help by numbering the paragraphs.

Sammy must have a shout for the injured Grigg's place in our September squad...

[BonnieShels]

Point taken. I did try to help by numbering the paragraphs.

Sammy must have a shout for the injured Grigg's place in our September squad...

I appreciate the numbering. But as I'm mostly on mobile it becomes nigh on impossible to flip-flop. Must ask Jimmy Brokeback for some tips on that.

[DannyInvincible]

2 Aye, Brokeback's repeated 'deadlines' are pointless. But he's just an onlooker, biased or otherwise. Maybe the impatient should try not voting in vast number for the most uncompromising parties? Jusrt a thought...

Are you referring to nationalist parties as being uncompromising? If so, care to elaborate exactly as to why? Nationalist parties wholeheartedly believe in parity of esteem and Martin McGuinness was well-known for his cross-communal outreach efforts on behalf of Sinn Féin.

As I said above, unionists expecting nationalism to compromise on the compromises isn't in any way reasonable or acceptable and that's why we have this impasse.


3 Thanks for the link to Ciaran McClean's legal action which I'd missed. Maybe it'll be more successful than Steven Agnew's?

You have faith in its chances of success now? ;)


4 Any Southern government has both at least an implied duty as co-guarantor to be impartial, and theoretically at least SF as a future coalition partner. What's the difference in principle to the Tory/ DUP deal?

It's different in principle because the Irish government isn't the sovereign government exercising jurisdiction over the north. The UK government enjoys that right and with it comes the responsibility (expressly laid down in the GFA) to be rigorously impartial. If unionists or the DUP seek have such a responsibility or duty imposed upon the Irish government, then they can always think about concurrently bestowing the corresponding right of jurisdiction upon the Irish government (via joint-authority or some other imaginative solution) and get back to nationalism on that. If Brokenshire had any nous, he'd be pressuring the DUP into action with the "threat" of this possibility. If unionists aren't keen on such however, then they can give the moaning about "Irish government impartiality" a rest; their complaints carry very little weight or credibility.


5 Sure, it'd be different if Corbyn could get his way on nuclear disarmament. No sign of it happening though. I think Labour as a whole find it very difficult to even imagine a future without constant economic growth and therefore to show much commitment or imagination to environmental issues

That's possible. There's a faction even within the Labour/trade union Left that opposes the scrapping of Trident (http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/01/jeremy-corbyn-and-trade-unions-go-war-over-trident) on the basis of potential job losses in the defence sector.

I actually voted Green in Manchester Central for the 2015 Westminster election, but it was pretty much a wasted vote as the party has little chance of making any serious inroads under the FPTP system, unfortunately. Labour's Lucy Powell regularly wins the Manchester Central seat by a landslide and also did so on that occasion. However, I would have voted for Powell last month if I was still resident in Manchester, pretty much due to the Corbyn effect - more so to give a vote to Labour as a party rather than to Powell the personality/politician, if you know what I mean - and even if I'd still have harboured my 2015 reservations about Powell's personal politics and internal party allegiances. She's a member of the Blarite Progress group (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/your-labour-mp-hate-jeremy-11086342).

Even a compromised Corbyn government would be much more preferable than a continuation of Tory rule, although I think we're agreed on that.


6 I'm sticking with 1972 as the watershed year (Stormont was abolished on my birthday, coincidentally). Unionists had lost their glorified county council and couldn't systematically discriminate and intimidate quite as before- plus as I mentioned, they had to endure 30 years of violence just like everyone else. I'm going to pull age rank here and suggest that younger Nationalists may underplay the significance of this ;)

That's your right, although I think by saying that, after 1972, unionists "couldn't systematically discriminate and intimidate quite as before", you're subtly (perhaps unwittingly) admitting that, even if their status had been dealt a somewhat diminishing blow then, they were still undoubtedly top dogs with discrimination and state-sanctioned intimidation still a facet of northern life for nationalists throughout the '70s, '80s and early '90s.


8 I see the difference as that between small talk (motherhood, apple pie, parity of esteem) and business (hospitals, schools, York Street infrastructure). The first is an introduction to the latter, not a replacement for it

Nobody's saying it should be a replacement though. In fact, nationalists are saying exactly what you're saying. Nationalists want business (or movement on the provision of services and infrastructure), but we first have to implement or properly introduce the principle of parity of esteem, as was previously agreed. The DUP are impeding that. Otherwise, it's just a case of business for unionism with nationalism receiving either broadly less favourable or even no treatment. That may not bother many unionists, but, as a nationalist, naturally I don't find it to be tolerable.

[backstothewall]

1 With you on the transport improvements I think. Isn't the A1 from Lisburn to the border just a couple of bridges at Rathfriland or wherever short of being effectively a motorway anyway?

It is. But there is also that roundabout at Hillsborough, and the mess that is Sprucefield.

I give you. The BTTW Motorways NI plan... 2575


As I said above, unionists expecting nationalism to compromise on the compromises isn't in any way reasonable or acceptable and that's why we have this impasse

Amen. I'm a floating nationalist, but SF get all the room they need on this from me. The DUP can't be allowed to welch on the deal. Neither can the British. I'll back them all the way to the gates of hell over this one.

[Gather round]

Are you referring to nationalist parties as being uncompromising? If so, care to elaborate exactly as to why?

Rather than co-operate in a local structure to address major problems in health, housing, education and the rest, SF have thrown their toys over

a) a language whose tiny minority of conversational speakers are already supported by the state

b) a backlog of historical investigations which they don't really want (given the likely result of senior figures being embarrassed by links to criminality or worse, as Brit agents). It's doublethink, basically

c) a law on gay marriage which only needs a free vote at Stormont to be enacted. As Jim Allister seems to have given up and the UUP are lukewarm the petition of concern seems unlikely

I have elaborated as above upthread and on parallel discussions...look, nobody's claiming the DUP aren't taking the **** big time. But the issues are bigger than just responding to them


Nationalist parties wholeheartedly believe in parity of esteem and Martin McGuinness was well-known for his cross-communal outreach efforts on behalf of Sinn Féin

They don't believe in taking health, housing education and the rest seriously, so I'm afraid I'm not that impressed that they're sufficiently on-message to parrot a few slogans (if not quite enough to have them fully tested by Nolan, Carruthers and co). What's Marty's reputation for outreach (not that I immediately recognise it) got to do with anything?


As I said above, unionists expecting nationalism to compromise on the compromises isn't in any way reasonable or acceptable and that's why we have this impasse

Riamh! Riamh! Riamh!


If unionists aren't keen on such however, then they can give the moaning about "Irish government impartiality" a rest; their complaints carry very little weight or credibility

Well to be fair to them, they aren't really moaning in those terms- probably for the reasons you describe. I merely mention the issue to illustrate my claim that expecting either government to be evermore neutral isn't realistic.


Even a compromised Corbyn government would be much more preferable than a continuation of Tory rule, although I think we're agreed on that

Indeed. Disagree on the 'wasted votes' thing. I suggest that under FPTP and where most seats aren't marginal (only 10% changed hands this time) you should generally vote for who you support. If a Manchester voter prefers Corbyn to Lucas it's reasonable enough to vote for Lucy Powell- given the size of constituencies here few ever have contact with their MP


you're subtly (perhaps unwittingly) admitting that, even if their status had been dealt a somewhat diminishing blow then, they were still undoubtedly top dog

No the point was deliberate, no subtlety intended. I recognise reality- Unionists still dominated and often abused politics during the Troubles, large sections of the Nationalist population were routinely harassed and so on. I got through secondary school in Belfast without ever being stopped by the Army or Police- although that said I was intimidated out of primary school. It wasn't much fun around the interface, on either side.


Amen. I'm a floating nationalist, but SF get all the room they need on this from me. The DUP can't be allowed to welch on the deal. Neither can the British. I'll back them all the way to the gates of hell over this one

I vote Green, so am neither a floating nor any other sort (submerged?) of party unionist. In the abstract, I'm all for the DUP getting a kicking- but in practice, I'm more interested in public services. Back them to the gates of the Mater or Royal and then stop?

[backstothewall]

I vote Green, so am neither a floating nor any other sort (submerged?) of party unionist. In the abstract, I'm all for the DUP getting a kicking- but in practice, I'm more interested in public services. Back them to the gates of the Mater or Royal and then stop?

Health, education, etc are undoubtedly more important than the Irish language. But this isn't about the Irish language. It's about respect. Cutting the grants for the kids going to the gaeltacht was the straw that broke the camel's back.

The DUP obviously don't want to treat nationalism with respect. It's time to put manners on the *******s.

[DannyInvincible]

GR; I'd broadly echo the sentiment of what BTTW said above. Power-sharing was agreed on the basis of compromises. You can't seriously have one community or set of parties being disrespected or played for fools and expect them to continue demeaning themselves while the other set lord it over them and take their compliance for granted. After putting up with over half a century of discrimination and prejudicial treatment in a hostile statelet, you don't see how it would be demeaning for nationalists to now compromise on the compromises? It's easy for unionists to be blasé about promises, respect and reciprocation when they've always been top dogs. They've never had to demand or fight for respect since they've always called the shots and been in the privileged position of being able to take things for granted.


What's Marty's reputation for outreach (not that I immediately recognise it) got to do with anything?

Meeting and shaking hands with members of the British royal family, attending - along with other nationalists - the Stormont 2015 Remembrance Day ceremony (where the gesture was spat back in his face by an ambush in the form of an impromptu rendition of 'GSTQ' initiated by TUV pipsqueak Sammy Morrison) and attending NI football matches (despite Arlene's churlish refusal to attend an Ireland game) are examples of McGuinness' efforts at reaching out. What are unionism's equivalents?

Outreach is a form of compromise too that carries significant political risks in terms of potential loss of face, reputation and credibility. It's political trailblazing, more often than not, and isn't always going to be highly regarded within one's own community.

I mentioned McGuinness' outreach because it's indicative of a reconciliatory approach and respect that unionism has so far demonstrated itself as being either unwilling to reciprocate or incapable of reciprocating.


Riamh! Riamh! Riamh!

This impasse isn't quite the nationalist equivalent of Paisley's "Never! Never! Never!" though, is it? Paisley roared that with venom as he had an aversion to compromise. In the current day, nationalism has already compromised and simply expects delivery on the promises made in return for that compromise. That's entirely reasonable and only fair. In reality then, it's still a case of unionist intransigence. As ever. As ever. As ever...


Well to be fair to them, they aren't really moaning in those terms- probably for the reasons you describe. I merely mention the issue to illustrate my claim that expecting either government to be evermore neutral isn't realistic.

The DUP's Christopher Stalford was the other week having a go at the Irish government for expressing support for an Irish language act and the legal recognition of same-sex marriage. He was rather tediously claiming it contravened some imagined duty of impartiality because these campaigns just so happened to be supported by Sinn Féin too.

Speaking of Stalford, it's amazing to think he's only three years older than me - he's 34 - but looks old enough to be my da!

https://i.imgur.com/u7ffuIP.png

[Gather round]

Health, education, etc are undoubtedly more important than the Irish language. But this isn't about the Irish language. It's about respect

Health, education etc. are more important than respect...

From a mainstream Unionist POV (which I understand while not fully sharing), it's pointless presenting the Language row as disrespectful to Nationalists alone. The whole point is to annoy Unionists. Either once enacted you'll have 10% of public jobs reserved for speakers, a Commissioner with powers around new criminal offences, and new street signs in Mount Vernon. Or (as Mairtin O'Muilleoir seemed to be suggesting in a recent interview on the BBC), you won't need any of those things. In which case, what's the row all about?


Cutting the grants for the kids going to the gaeltacht was the straw that broke the camel's back

I sympathised at the time, but not now. You have to weigh the deliberate slight and the upset to the kids against those bigger issues. Have a whip round or take them to the mini-Gaeltacht in Baile Andy or wherever.


You can't seriously have one community or set of parties being disrespected

Agree fully as per reply to BttW above ;)


What are unionism's equivalents [to Marty's outreach]?

I see most of that as little more than stunts. Which isn't to completely dismiss them, jaw-jaw around PR oppos is always better than war-war. As for the detail- Arlene has been practising her Irish skills, Jeff Donaldson went to the hurling, Baby Doc's love-in with the McGuinness family.

Don't be too harsh on Arlene's unwillingness to watch negative football. She may have been scarred for life watching it at Stangmore or Ballinamallard?


Speaking of Stalford, it's amazing to think he's only three years older than me - he's 34 - but looks old enough to be my da!

You're only 31? But those 800 years of hurt living in da Orange Statelet ;)

Talking of prematurely aged hacks, at Lord's Cricket Ground in London on Saturday I met eccentric and very right-wing Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg. He's often described as the member for 1917 and was in the news last week at the birth of his fifth son. The youngster and his elder brothers are all named after Medieval archbishops of Canterbury ;)

Catholics- you gotta love 'em

[Eminence Grise]

Sixth son, called Sixtus. You can't keep undercounting Catholics forever, GR.;)

[Gather round]

Sixth son, called Sixtus. You can't keep undercounting Catholics forever, GR.;)

The clan includes one sister as below. I'm just about in favor of letting women vote, but not sure if Jake is...

Alfred Wulfric Leyson Pius
Mary Anne Charlotte Emma
Thomas Wentworth Somerset Dunstan
Peter Theodore Alphege
Anselm Charles Fitzwilliam
Sixtus Dominic Boniface Christopher

Mary does have an extravagantly named aunt though- Annunziata. She was also a Tory candidate. When Dave Cameron suggested 'Nancy Mogg' would sound less posh, she told him to p*ss o(r)ff ;)

[backstothewall]

Health, education etc. are more important than respect...

This is where we have to part ways. They aren't. They aren't because those other things can't be done correctly until respect is sorted out. It's intolerable to go back a situation where even modest projects like The Narrow Water bridge are blocked because of who would be using them. The DUP, or whoever else unionists choose to represent them, will have to accept that Irishness and Britishness must have an equal status in our society. An Irish Language Act (which delivers real change) has become a totemic for nationalism this last few months imho. As the symbol of the change in attitude we need to see from unionism Stormont isn't coming back until it happens.

[Gather round]

The DUP, or whoever else unionists choose to represent them, will have to accept that Irishness and Britishness must have an equal status in our society

The problem is less unequal status than mutual mistrust. I mean, we can have another set-piece deal like GFA or StA anytime, but it won't change that.


An Irish Language Act (which delivers real change) has become a totemic for nationalism this last few months imho

What real change? As I mentioned above, MO'M downplayed it when interviewed with Kellie Armstrong? It can't be piecemeal and totemic at the same time...


As the symbol of the change in attitude we need to see from unionism Stormont isn't coming back until it happens

Foster's attitude does sem to have changed as I mentioned. See you on the Hill ;) (Not that I have any great faith in Stormont, like)

[backstothewall]

What real change? As I mentioned above, MO'M downplayed it when interviewed with Kellie Armstrong? It can't be piecemeal and totemic at the same time...

One of the leaks was bilingual road signs on motorways. If that is typical of the provisions it does indeed offer change which is simultaneously real and symbolic.

Also. I forgot to say above. Stalford is weird looking. He looks like a secondary villain from one of the 90s batman movies

[Gather round]

One of the leaks was bilingual road signs on motorways. If that is typical of the provisions it does indeed offer change which is simultaneously real and symbolic

Do we need to speculate on leaks- M O'M has played down likely detail in public interview as I mentioned?

I'd expect a blue sign pointing to An Iuraigh and Baile XML. Possibly not to Lios na gCearrbhach* and Droichead na Banna. I mean as the man said above, all the motorways are in Unionist areas.

* could be a gamble all right (pun intended)


Stalford is weird looking. He looks like a secondary villain from one of the 90s batman movies

You about to go all homo-erotic on us, Wallsy? He seems a well turned-out if slightly fogeyish young man ;)

Stalford is clearly a bit of a bigot and would admit as much, but there's good reason for him to be fronting for the DUP. The alternative is an ageing buffoon (Campbell, Wilson) or dinosaur-denier (Poots, Mancausla)

[BonnieShels]

Do we need to speculate on leaks- M O'M has played down likely detail in public interview as I mentioned?

I'd expect a blue sign pointing to An Iuraigh and Baile XML. Possibly not to Lios na gCearrbhach* and Droichead na Banna. I mean as the man said above, all the motorways are in Unionist areas.

* could be a gamble all right (pun intended)

Ah that fabled home of Irish computing...

Crois Mhic Lionnáin

[backstothewall]

I think motorways is a decent compromise. It has several advantages.

1. It avoids a sectarian carve up where prod areas have don't have bilingual signs, but kathlik areas do.
2. Most signs being up on very high gantry will make life more difficult for the paint pot warriors. After a few Darwin Awards are gumiven out they should be safe enough.