National Underage Leagues and LOI underage

[Philosophizer]

Interesting article by Dave Henderson (http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/state-of-play-time-for-a-rethink-at-irish-u-21-level-1.3022118) (Boh's chief scout, and former Aston Villa scout) in the Irish Times last week.

He touches on many interesting points, and re-iterates how the national underage leagues have been a big success in transitioning power from the big DDSL clubs to the national underage teams. This is something I've heard a few times now but i'd like to know more on the specifics of that, like:

Did the best kids move en masse from Kevins/Joeys/stella maris/Home Farm/Belvedere/Cherry Orchard to the national leagues when they started?
Are the traditional big 6 struggling to recruit the best young players now, or are plenty of gifted kids still going there?
If so, are they starting to struggle financially because their revenue source of selling teenagers to England has started to decline?
Have the big 6 lost any of their staff (coaches/scouts/administrators etc) to the national league teams?
Would the likes of Rovers/Bohs/Pats/Cork u17 teams now be much better than Belvedere or Kevins?


I know Kevins have made a lot of noise in the last year with newspaper articles and the PrimeTime episode, but the other 5 don't sem to have made any noise at all.

I'm sure there are some ppl on here who are involved in underage football or have their ear to the ground about this stuff.

[Ezeikial]

Would the likes of Rovers/Bohs/Pats/Cork u17 teams now be much better than Belvedere or Kevins?


This comparison is something of a red herring. Traditionally the DDSL export clubs have had little interest in u17 and above because the elite kids have generally already been trafficked to the UK by age 16.

It is when u15 national league is introduced (and presumably followed by u13) that the shift in development emphasis will really be seen.

Apart from their being a more national spread, the shift in elite player development in Dublin will become even more apparent at that point.

[Mr A]

Pats and Belvedere announce link up.

http://www.stpatsfc.com/news.php?id=7508

[Philosophizer]

It is when u15 national league is introduced (and presumably followed by u13) that the shift in development emphasis will really be seen.

Fair point. I've found online (http://www.fai.ie/domestic/news/fai-welcome-expressions-of-interest-for-new-national-under-15-league) that the u15 league is due to begin this August, so I presume that the national league u15 teams are already trying to source coaching staff and players for their u15 squads. Anyone heard yet if any players/coaches from the big 6 will be moving to teams in the national league?

[Buller]

Great article!
We have Damian Duff coaching our U15 team in an effort to entice them away from DDSL / big 6.
League of Ireland underage sides wont make real progress until an U15 National League is setup, that is the age we need to target first!

[nigel-harps1954]

Great article!
We have Damian Duff coaching our U15 team in an effort to entice them away from DDSL / big 6.
League of Ireland underage sides wont make real progress until an U15 National League is setup, that is the age we need to target first!

But, the under-15 league is starting in August?

Kevin McHugh is in charge of the Harps under-15's.

[El-Pietro]

Dan Murry and Billy Woods announced as the Under 15 Management team at City this evening. Delighted to have Dan back at the club.
http://www.corkcityfc.ie/home/2017/03/30/under-15-management-team-announced/

[Philosophizer]

More info on the belvo website about the official link with St Pats - http://www.belvederefc.com/club-news/belvedere-announce-official-partnership-with-st-patricks-athletic.2157.html

[sbgawa]

But, the under-15 league is starting in August?

Kevin McHugh is in charge of the Harps under-15's.

Rovers have under 14 and 15 teams in the ddsl already so I presume he is coaching them now and will bring the best ones into the national league plus some new recruits

[Jofspring]

Limerick had an issue before where they had open trials when the 17's were starting up. It was a bone of contention that they would be "robbing" the best players from other clubs and that the players already with Limerick at underage would be looked over for players coming from elsewhere. They decided after the trial to sign none of the players and stick with ones they already had at younger age groups coming through. The academy is actually causing a bigger divide in Limerick with junior-schoolboy clubs as they still continue to claim players are being robbed from them.

Limerick have teams now starting at u4's all the way up to u15's, u17's, u'19's nationally.

[gufcfan]

They decided after the trial to sign none of the players and stick with ones they already had at younger age groups coming through. The academy is actually causing a bigger divide in Limerick with junior-schoolboy clubs as they still continue to claim players are being robbed from them.

Let them. They'll never be sated. Same attitude all around the country. Has nothing to do with player development and everything to do with protecting their own position.

[pineapple stu]

I hear prospective players for the UCD u15 team have to be have gotten at least three As in their Junior Cert mocks.

[joey B]

Limerick had an issue before where they had open trials when the 17's were starting up. It was a bone of contention that they would be "robbing" the best players from other clubs and that the players already with Limerick at underage would be looked over for players coming from elsewhere. They decided after the trial to sign none of the players and stick with ones they already had at younger age groups coming through. The academy is actually causing a bigger divide in Limerick with junior-schoolboy clubs as they still continue to claim players are being robbed from them.

Limerick have teams now starting at u4's all the way up to u15's, u17's, u'19's nationally.

There's been similar claims in Donegal surrounding Harps Academys I think, there's also being accusations that the Harps academy was using money taken for training gear being used for the first team which is complete rubbish and was spread by people involved in running schoolboy football in the county.

[nigel-harps1954]

There's been similar claims in Donegal surrounding Harps Academys I think, there's also being accusations that the Harps academy was using money taken for training gear being used for the first team which is complete rubbish and was spread by people involved in running schoolboy football in the county.

I wouldn't say people really. I'd say person.

The animosity towards Harps in Donegal is less than it was ten years ago. There's still a select few people who would bend over backwards to screw over the club though.

[hoops1]

Some very good points by Henderson, where I wouldn't agree with him is the removal of the competitive element in the younger ages. That's actually one of the best things to happen the game here. Will to win still surfaces very quickly between teams of similar standards, where before the technical aspect was more than not being totally lost in overly competitive games.

[Philosophizer]

Stephen O'Donnell was on the LoiWeekly (https://soundcloud.com/user-914121770) podcast yesterday and made a v good point that if you're a good young player in Ireland you can easily be in a LOI team at the age of 18/19. This got me thinking about how much do we really need a u21/u23 league? Is it really the next most pressing issue that should be tackled once the u15 and u13 national league are up and running.

The evidence seems to suggest that O'Donnell is right. Recently there has been quite a few young lads who've made the jump from u19s to seniors relatively easily like Ogbene, Ellis, Hoare, Jamie McGrath, and a whole bunch of young lads at Rovers currently like Clarke, Doona, Bolger, Boyd, Dobbs.

The level of our league isn't as high as most European leagues so we don't have the enormous gap in standard that exists between underage and senior level. Maybe the lack of an u21/u23 league is actually not as big of a problem as some think. I'm guessing that this was in Ruud Dokter's thinking when he decided to create national leagues at u19, u17, u15 etc, instead of u18, u16 etc.

[sulywaterfordfc]

Stephen O'Donnell was on the LoiWeekly (https://soundcloud.com/user-914121770) podcast yesterday and made a v good point that if you're a good young player in Ireland you can easily be in a LOI team at the age of 18/19. This got me thinking about how much do we really need a u21/u23 league? Is it really the next most pressing issue that should be tackled once the u15 and u13 national league are up and running.

The evidence seems to suggest that O'Donnell is right. Recently there has been quite a few young lads who've made the jump from u19s to seniors relatively easily like Ogbene, Ellis, Hoare, Jamie McGrath, and a whole bunch of young lads at Rovers currently like Clarke, Doona, Bolger, Boyd, Dobbs.

The level of our league isn't as high as most European leagues so we don't have the enormous gap in standard that exists between underage and senior level. Maybe the lack of an u21/u23 league is actually not as big of a problem as some think. I'm guessing that this was in Ruud Dokter's thinking when he decided to create national leagues at u19, u17, u15 etc, instead of u18, u16 etc.

Then again another way of looking at it. Handful of players could be excelling for a clubs youth team but may not be ready for the step up just yet. Its better for player development to play from 19 onwards then play the odd game from the bench here and there and both club and player hoping the player develops further. Imo it hinders the players development due to the lack of game time. Yes you'll get 1/2 players ready to take the jump straight away from U19s to first team but at the same time you don't want young player with talent to be burnt out at first team level early in there career. But there'll be others whom have ability and potential but not yet be at the level required, the physical level being one of the bigger factors. If there's an U21 league it gives players additional chance of development especially ones just one on the border line. Players get regular football then get the odd first team game here and there, helps the player develop and get first team experience along the way. It to an extent stops clubs filling there squads each year with U19 players, some of whom who get very few chances. Example been that I know of, in Waterford there's three U19 players on first team contracts one of which been 17. All three came off the bench in the cup game this week and play regularly for U19s. But if they were overage for the 19s that'd of been there first competitive game of the season. Young lads sitting on the sideline watching will get players nowhere if anything it's going to turn them off football especially when they're putting in all the hard work few days a week in training for it to end in getting a sit in the stand watching on. Personally I think if there were U13,15, 17, 21 (Which could even act as an reserve team with a limited number of overage players allowed play each match - could even add junior teams to the league whom have aspirations of later joining the league) it would see the level of player development improve and there'd be a more of a level of professionalism in the league and gives the league a better look.

Obviously for the league to go and improve as a whole there needs to be personal running clubs whom know what they're doing. And ultimately there needs to be an association whom has the leagues best interests at heart or just even taking some sort of interest in the league with proper management and better financial support, e.g. Prize money. When you see clubs allowed get to themselves into the position of Waterford and Athlone last year is laughable, mainly because its a regular occurrence in the LOI. And if clubs were to start running the league then the league would be even more of a mess, some clubs can't even get there own houses order let alone run a national league.

[Charlie Darwin]

Stephen O'Donnell was on the LoiWeekly (https://soundcloud.com/user-914121770) podcast yesterday and made a v good point that if you're a good young player in Ireland you can easily be in a LOI team at the age of 18/19. This got me thinking about how much do we really need a u21/u23 league? Is it really the next most pressing issue that should be tackled once the u15 and u13 national league are up and running.

The evidence seems to suggest that O'Donnell is right. Recently there has been quite a few young lads who've made the jump from u19s to seniors relatively easily like Ogbene, Ellis, Hoare, Jamie McGrath, and a whole bunch of young lads at Rovers currently like Clarke, Doona, Bolger, Boyd, Dobbs.

The level of our league isn't as high as most European leagues so we don't have the enormous gap in standard that exists between underage and senior level. Maybe the lack of an u21/u23 league is actually not as big of a problem as some think. I'm guessing that this was in Ruud Dokter's thinking when he decided to create national leagues at u19, u17, u15 etc, instead of u18, u16 etc.
The LSL and other intermediate leagues are all the U21 development we need. We need more link-ups like Dundalk with Malahide and Pats with Crumlin and Belvo (or UCD with their LSL team) and that will be sorted. Hopefully the expansion of the underage LOI will help normalise that and make it work better for everyone.

[Charlie Darwin]

Then again another way of looking at it. Handful of players could be excelling for a clubs youth team but may not be ready for the step up just yet. Its better for player development to play from 19 onwards then play the odd game from the bench here and there and both club and player hoping the player develops further.
It's less of an issue in Dublin where there are fully-developed junior and intermediate leagues, but surely a lot of Waterford's (and Wexford's) "gap" is bridged by the likes of North End, etc. The ideal solution, long term, would be a fully-developed intermediate structure so we had proper provincial amateur structures below the League.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Drogheda United and Home Farm just announced a link for the next 5 years

[Philosophizer]

Drogheda United and Home Farm just announced a link for the next 5 years
This is great stuff!

That's 3 of the big 6 schoolboy clubs that have a formal link now with a LOI club:
Bray Wanderers - St Joey's boys
St Pat's - Belvo
Drodheda - HomeFarm

[RathfarnhamHoop]

This is great stuff!

That's 3 of the big 6 schoolboy clubs that have a formal link now with a LOI club:
Bray Wanderers - St Joey's boys
St Pat's - Belvo
Drodheda - HomeFarm

who would the other 3 be? st kevins and?

[Philosophizer]

St Kevin's, Stella Maris and Cherry Orchard

[Philosophizer]

Drogheda United and Home Farm just announced a link for the next 5 years

Has there been any official announcement about this? Haven't seen anything online

[RathfarnhamHoop]

St Kevin's, Stella Maris and Cherry Orchard

They're going to struggle to find club to partner with cause all the Dublin clubs seem pretty set with:
UCD-Mount Merrion
Cabo, Bohs, Shels, Rovers- Their own schoolboy sections
Pats- Belvo & Crumlin
Even Drogheda- Home Farm
Unless you convince one of the clubs with their own setup or that already have a link to partner with you you're looking at wexford, Dundalk, Longford,etc being the next closest clubs which is very far from ideal.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Has there been any official announcement about this? Haven't seen anything online

http://www.homefarmfc.yourclub.ie/news/10405

[Philosophizer]

They're going to struggle to find club to partner with cause all the Dublin clubs seem pretty set with:
UCD-Mount Merrion
Cabo, Bohs, Shels, Rovers- Their own schoolboy sections
Pats- Belvo & Crumlin
Even Drogheda- Home Farm
Unless you convince one of the clubs with their own setup or that already have a link to partner with you you're looking at wexford, Dundalk, Longford,etc being the next closest clubs which is very far from ideal.

I don't necessarily agree that because a club already has schoolboy teams they can't link with other clubs. Pats and Drogheda already have schoolboy teams playing in the DDSL for eg, but it's still v beneficial for them to partner with Belvo and Home Farm respectively.

[GUFCghost]

What do these link-up deals usually consist of?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

I don't necessarily agree that because a club already has schoolboy teams they can't link with other clubs. Pats and Drogheda already have schoolboy teams playing in the DDSL for eg, but it's still v beneficial for them to partner with Belvo and Home Farm respectively.

It doesnt but looking at those clubs Cabo are built off their schoolboy setup so wont link with anyone, Rovers are developing a full-time academy so they wont, Bohs seem to be really beginning to push their schoolboy section and Shels are quite proud of theirs so I cant see them linking but those two might.
Do Pats still have their schoolboy teams or are they fully merged with crumlin now?

[gufcfan]

This is great stuff!

That's 3 of the big 6 schoolboy clubs that have a formal link now with a LOI club:
Bray Wanderers - St Joey's boys
St Pat's - Belvo
Drodheda - HomeFarm

How is this great? It's surely completely against the spirit of what was being worked towards.

[nigel-harps1954]

How is this great? It's surely completely against the spirit of what was being worked towards.

Exactly. I think it's a total cop-out from the clubs who don't want the responsibility, or financial burden, of having to look after an academy.

[Philosophizer]

How is this great? It's surely completely against the spirit of what was being worked towards.

I don't believe so.

Those big Dublin schoolboy clubs aren't going to sit back and fall into obscurity while the LOI National Leagues teams take the best talent. They're going to fight the LOI clubs for the signature of every talented kid in Dublin (and well beyond). Given the renown of these schoolboy clubs, I'd fancy them to attract the best kids over the LOI academies. And before anyone jumps down my throat, I know the best option for 99% of those kids would be to join the LOI club.

Even growing up in Meath in the 90s, every kid who was half decent knew who the big 6 were by the age of about 12 or 13, and knew they were the golden ticket to getting the best coaching and possibly "making it".

LOI teams are better off partnering with these schoolboy clubs rather than fighting against them. It's a fight they're not going to win, and would only end up creating bad blood. Being realistic, those Dublin schoolboy clubs are far more respected than the underage teams of Dublin-based LOI clubs.

It also comes down to a matter of resources. Many of those well known Dublin schoolboy clubs have good grounds and training pitches in established locations in the city. Some LOI clubs don't own any training facilities or underage pitches, and even if they found such a property for sale, they couldn't afford to buy it. What looks more impressive... Bohs underage teams playing on mediocre pitches in the Phoenix park, with no dressing rooms, or St Kevin's with a fancy clubhouse, full size all weathers and a lovely pitch etc.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

I don't believe so.

Those big Dublin schoolboy clubs aren't going to sit back and fall into obscurity while the LOI National Leagues teams take the best talent. They're going to fight the LOI clubs for the signature of every talented kid in Dublin (and well beyond). Given the renown of these schoolboy clubs, I'd fancy them to attract the best kids over the LOI academies. And before anyone jumps down my throat, I know the best option for 99% of those kids would be to join the LOI club.

Even growing up in Meath in the 90s, every kid who was half decent knew who the big 6 were by the age of about 12 or 13, and knew they were the golden ticket to getting the best coaching and possibly "making it".

LOI teams are better off partnering with these schoolboy clubs rather than fighting against them. It's a fight they're not going to win, and would only end up creating bad blood. Being realistic, those Dublin schoolboy clubs are far more respected than the underage teams of Dublin-based LOI clubs.

It also comes down to a matter of resources. Many of those well known Dublin schoolboy clubs have good grounds and training pitches in established locations in the city. Some LOI clubs don't own any training facilities or underage pitches, and even if they found such a property for sale, they couldn't afford to buy it. What looks more impressive... Bohs underage teams playing on mediocre pitches in the Phoenix park, with no dressing rooms, or St Kevin's with a fancy clubhouse, full size all weathers and a lovely pitch etc.

I'd tend to agree with this. Most clubs only have the national stage to offer and maybe deals with the odd 3rd level scholarship. The only clubs that can compete with the big schoolboy clubs in the Dublin area in terms of coaching, facilities, name, etc, are rovers with the new development in Roadstone and coaches like Duff and the fact that just now rovers and dundalk and maybe Cork are the 3 clubs in Ireland that everyone knows, that's going to be a big draw for any kid so they can compete with the big schoolboy clubs. Also rovers have teams competing in the top deal divisions all the way through already which will help too.
If you take Bray as the prototype they've got a full schoolboy section now and a new training ground to attract players. If all clubs can do that from their links then they'll be a success.
I think just now clubs have to decide do they want to go on their own and know 100% of profits are theirs but so is all the risk of link up and cut the risk but also the benefits. Either way is fine, both rovers and bray are doing well with the way they've chosen but whichever they're going to go they have to go all in and my only fear is clubs will go short term and it'll all go belly up in a few years.

[Martinho II]

speaking of Home Farm do they still have a senior team at all? manys the good night I had in Whitehall!

[RathfarnhamHoop]

speaking of Home Farm do they still have a senior team at all? manys the good night I had in Whitehall!

They do but I don't think they're any good 2nd division LSL Sunday i think.

[sulywaterfordfc]

UCD keeper on socceram this morning https://twitter.com/socceram/status/853194972107079684

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Irish u 18's squad announced today and 8/18 players are with LOI clubs which is great. Seems the leagues are having an impact already.

[gufcfan]

Irish u 18's squad announced today and 8/18 players are with LOI clubs which is great. Seems the leagues are having an impact already.

Those numbers will swell up through the grades when the u15 league is going. Hard for some promising talents to break into the international setup if they're not already at the traditional nurseries by then. That won't be long changing.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Those numbers will swell up through the grades when the u15 league is going. Hard for some promising talents to break into the international setup if they're not already at the traditional nurseries by then. That won't be long changing.
Yeah Irish u15's are all playing for the usual schoolboy clubs but I suspect in 2/3 years time it will be all LOI clubs and English clubs. Preferably with more from LOI clubs than English.

[cobhlad]

Rovers announce partnership with Corduff FC https://www.facebook.com/cordufffc/photos/a.570638639723196.1073741828.570616219725438/1273869526066767/?type=3

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Rovers announce partnership with Corduff FC https://www.facebook.com/cordufffc/photos/a.570638639723196.1073741828.570616219725438/1273869526066767/?type=3

Thats an interesting one. I wonder why corduff.

[Charlie Darwin]

Corduff is probably the biggest club outside the traditional powerhouses and presumably were more open to a deal than those other clubs.

[sbgawa]

Corduff generally lose there better players to Kevins so I guess they would rather line themselves up with Rovers.
Good move from rovers as well blanchardstown is huge and we might get some support from over there

[RathfarnhamHoop]

would've thought Templeogue would have been the front runners but maybe theyre too close and having Corduff means bigger catchment area

[Charlie Darwin]

Clubs aren't limited to one link-up - Pats have Crumlin and Belvedere afaik.

[gufcfan]

Using loopholes to get around having a proper academy.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Using loopholes to get around having a proper academy.

Rovers have teams from u8/9's up to u19's plus a younger kids academy, I'd call that a proper academy. This link up is just having first option on more players.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Clubs aren't limited to one link-up - Pats have Crumlin and Belvedere afaik.

Yeah true they could still link up with templeogue or there's a lot of very good schoolboy clubs around south west Dublin to potentially link with too

[Charlie Darwin]

Ideally all the local teams like Maelruans, Firhouse, Marks, Templeogue would all feed into Rovers and the same be the case for other clubs, but I suppose the way schoolboy football is so concentrated on certain teams it is bound to be a bit piecemeal like this.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

http://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/robinson-hits-back-at-criticism-of-hoops-plans-for-future-35661812.html
Robinson talking about the academy if anyone is interested.